The problem Patiwat is Thaksin Shinawatra seemed to put his faith in the worship of Khmer/Myanmar talismans . . and I am not knowledgeable enough on Thai amulets/talismans to render any judgement on why Thaksin prefer the Thai talismans less. Same with Lao talismans.
Patiwat maybe you should consult Thaksin or Newin on the subject matter . . if you are so bent on making your own personal worship of some talismans. Thaksin was not so lucky in his black magic or Khmer/Myanmar talisman worship . . but if you believe otherwise sure go ahead pal.
Hobby, it would appear then that you rail at the “irrational peasant” syndrome as did the clonial powers of Europe before you. However, your rationality is but one rationality among many and has no monopoloy on legitimacy, it makes sense to you as does other people’s to them, but your concern that others don’t share yours is where most people on this planet differ from you as is manifest in their rejection of colonialism. Now if you were to avail yourself of Evans-Pritchard’s book you would find that the existence of your rationality does not have to be pitted against others as if they were “irrational” or problematic, in fact you might even come to better terms with the limitations of your own…were you interested that is.
I do not see any benefit of this discussion about Thaksin’s believe in ghosts or gods. It is his business and has nothing to do with any of us. If Thaksin had used these in running the country or forced us to watch on TV when he consulted the shaman or voodoo guru or when performed any rituals while he was in power, then it is our business that we need to discuss. After all, ghosts or gods are considered as things of the past for most Thai anyway. It is just another laughable topics, nothing will come out of these.
I concede that superstition and ritual is rife in Thailand (maybe it’s due to all the ghosts) and is a minor criticism of Thaksin, except if the things he did were done because of his ‘voodoo’ worship.
Personally, I think he worships MONEY more than ‘voodoo’, and voodoo was just another way of keeping the masses on side.
Nirut, I accept it is another way of living to my own.
I choose to limit my beliefs to the rational, and not be a ‘blind’ believer when it comes to matters such as superstition and religion etc.
I do not claim to be superior and do not wish to denigrate.
I only weighed in to this because I would prefer if leaders (and voters) were more rational rather than relying on ‘superstitions’ and ‘faith’ in their decision making.
My thesis is people around people who worship Khmer/Myanmar black magic/talismans are the ones who suffer the most. Look at the Myanmar people who had to bear the sufferring just because their generals worship talismans from darkness. The province of Buriram remain one of the poorest in Thailand because of this Khmer shaman-worshipping Newin who is this area’s elected parliamentarian.
Now we have the Thaksin kids, still innocents in the world, suddenly having to face multi-billion Baht tax evasion lawsuits, and wife Potjaman to be investigated for a land purchase deal, Temasek yet to calculate the billions in real (not paper) losses after entering into a business friendship with Thaksin, and the 3 election commissioners to be jailed for being so loyally Thaksinist, and those many friends and associates of Thaksin at Thai Rak Thai party biting their nails at the many corruption/criminal probes sure to come . . . all because Thaksin was devoted to Khmer/Myanmar talisman worship.
Fortune telling is harmless people . . . it is the worship of talismans from Khmer/Myanmar voodoo shamans that will give your loved ones lots of anguish.
My thesis is people around people who worship Khmer/Myanmar black magic/talismans are the ones who suffer the most. Look at the Myanmar people who had to bear the sufferring just because their generals worship talismans from darkness. The province of Buriram remain one of the poorest in Thailand because of this Khmer shaman-worshipping Newin who is this area’s elected parliamentarian.
Now we have the Thaksin kids, still innocents in the world, suddenly having to face multi-billion Baht tax evasion lawsuits, and wife Potjaman to be investigated for a land purchase deal, Temasek yet to calculate the billions in real (not paper) losses after entering into a business friendship with Thaksin, and the 3 election commissioners to be jailed for being so loyally Thaksinist, and those many friends and associates of Thaksin at Thai Rak Thai party biting their nails at the many corruption/criminal probes sure to come . . . all because Thaksin was devoted to Khmer/Myanmar talisman worship.
Fortune telling is harmless people . . . it is the worship of talismans from Khmer/Myanmar voodoo talismans that will give your loved ones lots of anguish.
The use of Voodoo with superstition as parody of Voodoo and superstition is an interesting approach to take to mock those who really think it to be Voodoo and superstition…sorry the subtlty was lost on me…and yet the use of voodoo as emblematic of superstition and hence a little ethnocentric was not. I just thought the anthropological dimension of the multidisciplinary might like to make its contribution and set a tone to the discussions that reflects the deeper interest that anthropology has in humanity and its diversity.
Hobby, it is not Voodoo as Voodoo is not something practciced on the Asian continent and has a whole different history and form to such things as Thaksin’s use of Thai astrology, duang chata rituals and the related Thai practices being labeled as “dark magic” that was being bandied around. That you wish to call it “superstition” is of course your perogative and duly noted . It is after all what you believe and as Andrew mentioned makes for an interesting aside to the practices under discussion. Or does it…? I would have thought that Evans-Pritchard’s book had dealt with this point quite decisively. That is that to label these practics as superstition has its history and that isn’t one to be proud of. Framing people’s beliefs and practices as Superstition is of the class of the same notions that saw Asians believed to be inferior to Cuacasians, legitimated much of the imperialist project that itself is the source of the interpretation of non-western scientific (and some Christian) practice as being backward superstition of the inferior people’s of the world and so quintessential bigotry. What is it if it isn’t superstition…? practices and beliefs that are meaningful to the people who practice them, that have very real effects, are emblematic of the possibilities of human existence, pose a strong argument against the dominance of the natural sciences as the only legitimate epistemology for understanding the world and something that if looked at with intent to understand rather than to denegrate, anotherway of living to your own…
Its funny that the anti-Taksin claimed Taksinomist and troppled him in the recently. 30 baht scheme is the one of Taksinomist in which save amont of money and Sorayud is going to convince people as free scheme. There is no reason for opposing.
[…] That Aung San Suu Kyi has repeatedly asked tourists to boycott the country will still be good enough for many.┬ It will encourage them to stay away, and make them feel like they are making a contribution through “avoided tourism”.┬ But is this┬ much the same as the “avoided deforestation” schemes that I questioned earlier in the week?┬ Is it just as hard to quantify and police?┬ Is it just as hard to identify the winners and the losers?┬ Is it just as easy to get swept up in partisan judgements?┬ […]
[…] Who does the tourism boycott actually hurt?┬ To rephrase this question – did Thandar Shwe’s wedding attire┬ miss an extra diamond accessory because of the Burma tourism boycott?┬ […]
[…] Nich Farrelly has raised some interesting questions about the potential economic benefits of preserving Southeast Asian forests in the context of international carbon trading. A similar market-based approach can be seen in relation to Rewarding Upland People for Environmental Services, a “program for developing mechanisms for rewarding the upland poor in Asia for the environmental services they provide.” The goal of the program is “to enhance the livelihoods and reduce poverty of the upland poor while supporting environmental conservation on biodiversity protection, watershed management, carbon sequestration and landscape beauty at local and global levels.” A range of research and discussion papers are available on the RUPES web site. […]
You know I don’t understand the problem of whether the generals or Thaksin are more superstitutious when the royal family and all the people in the palace spend it seems half their times on rituals of fortune and fate and numerology. Why all these royal rituals where it says “it began at 11:29.07 pm, an auspicious time chosen by palace astrologers” ?? Good or bad, everyone in Thailand is into it. VIchai, just go guy yourself a lottery ticket on 999. It did win a few years back I remember.
Andrew Walker if you sincerely wish to meet the best voodoo or black magic shamans, you should consult Thaksin Shinawatra. Thaksin Shinawatra can only afford the best, what else?
There was that E-Thi Myanmar witch that Thaksin regularly consulted. There was that Buriram hick Newin who was Thaksin’s spiritual adviser. And there was that mysterious Khmer shaman that Thaksin had employed and sought in so many occasions . . . praying to Khmer talismans for super-powers unlimited and and even more wealth (greedy as always).
Andrew Walker you should research whether Thaksin Shinawatra still employ black magic shamans at London (yes there are lots of voodoo specialists in UK) these days or had resigned himself simply to popping viagras for potency.
Thanks Nirut, I suspect some of us are using “voodoo” to turn some the mockery back on those who dismiss it as “voodoo.” Others, I suspect, really think it is “voodoo.” I think the anxiety about “voodoo” is an interesting phenomenon in itself.
I haven’t heard about the “tenth reign” stuff you mention, bystander, but would be interested to know more if you have more detail. At risk of starting another spate of Thai royal hagiography on this site (apologies if it starts up again, Andrew) I have heard the story about how the 9th king will be the last of the dynasty based on a curse put on rama 1 for killing King Taksin of Thonburi fame…I tend to look at these stories as myths in the Levi-Straussian sense of the word rather than to treat with them literally…
Another thing just briefly, while this is a multidisciplinary site is it really necessary to refer to other people’s beliefs and practices in typically ethnocentric language? Say calling belief in spirits and astrology, related ritual practice and contemporary forms of this “voodoo” and “superstition”? Has anyone here read E. Evans-Priitchard’s book Witchcraft, oracles and magic among the Azande…I don’t mean this as a complaint but what level discussion are you going to get out of dismissing such things out of hand so readily? Strikes me as a little strange considering the anthropological bent of the site’s administrator…
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Extending the life of the junta
The problem Patiwat is Thaksin Shinawatra seemed to put his faith in the worship of Khmer/Myanmar talismans . . and I am not knowledgeable enough on Thai amulets/talismans to render any judgement on why Thaksin prefer the Thai talismans less. Same with Lao talismans.
Patiwat maybe you should consult Thaksin or Newin on the subject matter . . if you are so bent on making your own personal worship of some talismans. Thaksin was not so lucky in his black magic or Khmer/Myanmar talisman worship . . but if you believe otherwise sure go ahead pal.
Thai capital to shift (it’s in the stars)!
Hobby, it would appear then that you rail at the “irrational peasant” syndrome as did the clonial powers of Europe before you. However, your rationality is but one rationality among many and has no monopoloy on legitimacy, it makes sense to you as does other people’s to them, but your concern that others don’t share yours is where most people on this planet differ from you as is manifest in their rejection of colonialism. Now if you were to avail yourself of Evans-Pritchard’s book you would find that the existence of your rationality does not have to be pitted against others as if they were “irrational” or problematic, in fact you might even come to better terms with the limitations of your own…were you interested that is.
That goes for the whole world not just Thailand.
Extending the life of the junta
Vichai, could you clarify your thesis.
Are you saying that it is OK to worship Thai talismans, but it isn’t OK to worship Burmese or Khmer talismans?
What about Laos talismans – is it OK to worship them?
Extending the life of the junta
I do not see any benefit of this discussion about Thaksin’s believe in ghosts or gods. It is his business and has nothing to do with any of us. If Thaksin had used these in running the country or forced us to watch on TV when he consulted the shaman or voodoo guru or when performed any rituals while he was in power, then it is our business that we need to discuss. After all, ghosts or gods are considered as things of the past for most Thai anyway. It is just another laughable topics, nothing will come out of these.
Extending the life of the junta
Pundit, are you criticising Thaksin?
I concede that superstition and ritual is rife in Thailand (maybe it’s due to all the ghosts) and is a minor criticism of Thaksin, except if the things he did were done because of his ‘voodoo’ worship.
Personally, I think he worships MONEY more than ‘voodoo’, and voodoo was just another way of keeping the masses on side.
Extending the life of the junta
Polo: That is exactly my argument, but it is only Thaksin who seems to be criticised for it.
Thai capital to shift (it’s in the stars)!
Nirut, I accept it is another way of living to my own.
I choose to limit my beliefs to the rational, and not be a ‘blind’ believer when it comes to matters such as superstition and religion etc.
I do not claim to be superior and do not wish to denigrate.
I only weighed in to this because I would prefer if leaders (and voters) were more rational rather than relying on ‘superstitions’ and ‘faith’ in their decision making.
My concerns are not limited to Thailand.
Extending the life of the junta
My thesis is people around people who worship Khmer/Myanmar black magic/talismans are the ones who suffer the most. Look at the Myanmar people who had to bear the sufferring just because their generals worship talismans from darkness. The province of Buriram remain one of the poorest in Thailand because of this Khmer shaman-worshipping Newin who is this area’s elected parliamentarian.
Now we have the Thaksin kids, still innocents in the world, suddenly having to face multi-billion Baht tax evasion lawsuits, and wife Potjaman to be investigated for a land purchase deal, Temasek yet to calculate the billions in real (not paper) losses after entering into a business friendship with Thaksin, and the 3 election commissioners to be jailed for being so loyally Thaksinist, and those many friends and associates of Thaksin at Thai Rak Thai party biting their nails at the many corruption/criminal probes sure to come . . . all because Thaksin was devoted to Khmer/Myanmar talisman worship.
Fortune telling is harmless people . . . it is the worship of talismans from Khmer/Myanmar voodoo shamans that will give your loved ones lots of anguish.
Extending the life of the junta
My thesis is people around people who worship Khmer/Myanmar black magic/talismans are the ones who suffer the most. Look at the Myanmar people who had to bear the sufferring just because their generals worship talismans from darkness. The province of Buriram remain one of the poorest in Thailand because of this Khmer shaman-worshipping Newin who is this area’s elected parliamentarian.
Now we have the Thaksin kids, still innocents in the world, suddenly having to face multi-billion Baht tax evasion lawsuits, and wife Potjaman to be investigated for a land purchase deal, Temasek yet to calculate the billions in real (not paper) losses after entering into a business friendship with Thaksin, and the 3 election commissioners to be jailed for being so loyally Thaksinist, and those many friends and associates of Thaksin at Thai Rak Thai party biting their nails at the many corruption/criminal probes sure to come . . . all because Thaksin was devoted to Khmer/Myanmar talisman worship.
Fortune telling is harmless people . . . it is the worship of talismans from Khmer/Myanmar voodoo talismans that will give your loved ones lots of anguish.
Thai capital to shift (it’s in the stars)!
The use of Voodoo with superstition as parody of Voodoo and superstition is an interesting approach to take to mock those who really think it to be Voodoo and superstition…sorry the subtlty was lost on me…and yet the use of voodoo as emblematic of superstition and hence a little ethnocentric was not. I just thought the anthropological dimension of the multidisciplinary might like to make its contribution and set a tone to the discussions that reflects the deeper interest that anthropology has in humanity and its diversity.
Hobby, it is not Voodoo as Voodoo is not something practciced on the Asian continent and has a whole different history and form to such things as Thaksin’s use of Thai astrology, duang chata rituals and the related Thai practices being labeled as “dark magic” that was being bandied around. That you wish to call it “superstition” is of course your perogative and duly noted . It is after all what you believe and as Andrew mentioned makes for an interesting aside to the practices under discussion. Or does it…? I would have thought that Evans-Pritchard’s book had dealt with this point quite decisively. That is that to label these practics as superstition has its history and that isn’t one to be proud of. Framing people’s beliefs and practices as Superstition is of the class of the same notions that saw Asians believed to be inferior to Cuacasians, legitimated much of the imperialist project that itself is the source of the interpretation of non-western scientific (and some Christian) practice as being backward superstition of the inferior people’s of the world and so quintessential bigotry. What is it if it isn’t superstition…? practices and beliefs that are meaningful to the people who practice them, that have very real effects, are emblematic of the possibilities of human existence, pose a strong argument against the dominance of the natural sciences as the only legitimate epistemology for understanding the world and something that if looked at with intent to understand rather than to denegrate, anotherway of living to your own…
Save for sufficiency
Its funny that the anti-Taksin claimed Taksinomist and troppled him in the recently. 30 baht scheme is the one of Taksinomist in which save amont of money and Sorayud is going to convince people as free scheme. There is no reason for opposing.
Carbon trading up Burmese GDP?
[…] That Aung San Suu Kyi has repeatedly asked tourists to boycott the country will still be good enough for many.┬ It will encourage them to stay away, and make them feel like they are making a contribution through “avoided tourism”.┬ But is this┬ much the same as the “avoided deforestation” schemes that I questioned earlier in the week?┬ Is it just as hard to quantify and police?┬ Is it just as hard to identify the winners and the losers?┬ Is it just as easy to get swept up in partisan judgements?┬ […]
Thandar Shwe’s wedding…
[…] Who does the tourism boycott actually hurt?┬ To rephrase this question – did Thandar Shwe’s wedding attire┬ miss an extra diamond accessory because of the Burma tourism boycott?┬ […]
Carbon trading up Burmese GDP?
[…] Nich Farrelly has raised some interesting questions about the potential economic benefits of preserving Southeast Asian forests in the context of international carbon trading. A similar market-based approach can be seen in relation to Rewarding Upland People for Environmental Services, a “program for developing mechanisms for rewarding the upland poor in Asia for the environmental services they provide.” The goal of the program is “to enhance the livelihoods and reduce poverty of the upland poor while supporting environmental conservation on biodiversity protection, watershed management, carbon sequestration and landscape beauty at local and global levels.” A range of research and discussion papers are available on the RUPES web site. […]
Extending the life of the junta
You know I don’t understand the problem of whether the generals or Thaksin are more superstitutious when the royal family and all the people in the palace spend it seems half their times on rituals of fortune and fate and numerology. Why all these royal rituals where it says “it began at 11:29.07 pm, an auspicious time chosen by palace astrologers” ?? Good or bad, everyone in Thailand is into it. VIchai, just go guy yourself a lottery ticket on 999. It did win a few years back I remember.
Extending the life of the junta
Andrew Walker if you sincerely wish to meet the best voodoo or black magic shamans, you should consult Thaksin Shinawatra. Thaksin Shinawatra can only afford the best, what else?
There was that E-Thi Myanmar witch that Thaksin regularly consulted. There was that Buriram hick Newin who was Thaksin’s spiritual adviser. And there was that mysterious Khmer shaman that Thaksin had employed and sought in so many occasions . . . praying to Khmer talismans for super-powers unlimited and and even more wealth (greedy as always).
Andrew Walker you should research whether Thaksin Shinawatra still employ black magic shamans at London (yes there are lots of voodoo specialists in UK) these days or had resigned himself simply to popping viagras for potency.
Thai capital to shift (it’s in the stars)!
Just because they believe it doesn’t make it not voodoo and superstition – what else is it?
Thai capital to shift (it’s in the stars)!
Thanks Nirut, I suspect some of us are using “voodoo” to turn some the mockery back on those who dismiss it as “voodoo.” Others, I suspect, really think it is “voodoo.” I think the anxiety about “voodoo” is an interesting phenomenon in itself.
Surayud to bring love, harmony and virtue (with strengthened military potential)!
Sorry, my mistake again.
8 years absent of executions from 1989-1996.
First case after that was 1997.
Thai capital to shift (it’s in the stars)!
I haven’t heard about the “tenth reign” stuff you mention, bystander, but would be interested to know more if you have more detail. At risk of starting another spate of Thai royal hagiography on this site (apologies if it starts up again, Andrew) I have heard the story about how the 9th king will be the last of the dynasty based on a curse put on rama 1 for killing King Taksin of Thonburi fame…I tend to look at these stories as myths in the Levi-Straussian sense of the word rather than to treat with them literally…
Another thing just briefly, while this is a multidisciplinary site is it really necessary to refer to other people’s beliefs and practices in typically ethnocentric language? Say calling belief in spirits and astrology, related ritual practice and contemporary forms of this “voodoo” and “superstition”? Has anyone here read E. Evans-Priitchard’s book Witchcraft, oracles and magic among the Azande…I don’t mean this as a complaint but what level discussion are you going to get out of dismissing such things out of hand so readily? Strikes me as a little strange considering the anthropological bent of the site’s administrator…