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Academic talks are usually pretty sedate affairs, with the most heated elements often the complimentary urn coffee bubbling away at the back of the room.
Not so at Yale University earlier this month when Pavin Chachavalpongpun delivered a lecture on Thailand’s royals, ‘From Bhumibol to Vajiralongkorn: Neo-Royalism and the Future of Thai Monarchy’.
It’s a talk he’s given many times at many places, and while it’s the type of presentation one couldn’t give in Thailand, for long-time followers of the country and its politics there is nothing particularly shocking or new.
However in New Haven, it still managed to ruffle some audience members’ feathers.
According to reports from New Mandala readers who were there, a group of royalists also attended, apparently with the specific intention of disrupting the talk and publicly condemning and shaming Pavin.
Towards the end of the talk, a well-dressed, middle-aged Thai man stood up and began cursing Pavin. A woman with him also joined in. A third woman in the party remained silent and appeared embarrassed by their behaviour.
The man repeatedly claimed to represent Yale and Yale Medical School, called Pavin a “son of a bitch” and “full of shit” (the whole exchange was in English), asked how much he was paid by Thaksin. He also said “How can you be Thai?” and even “You’re not Thai.”
Following is a transcript of the exchange; we will leave it up to you to decide what it all means.
Transcript
Man: “Come on, don’t put down the king. You’re just a pain in the ass! How could you be Thai? Okay? You are not Thai! You got the scholarship from the princess! Have a respect.”
Pavin: “I never got a scholarship from the princess.”
Man: “Oh come on. You have a scholarship.”
Pavin: “No, I never got a scholarship from the princess.”
Man: “Come on, give me a break. You know, your speech is out of context! It’s wrong!”
Organiser: “I think we should right now just wait for him to finish.”
Man, pointing finger in the face of organiser who was approaching him: “Get out of my face! Get out! Get out!”
Woman: “You want to finish? Let him finish.”
Man: “You finish. Okay? You talk to this university, when I am representing Yale! Yale School of Medicine comes with me to help Thailand in the king’s project, and you’re putting down the king? You son of a bitch!”
Organiser: “Sir, can you please stop name calling?”
Man, pointing finger in the face of the organizer again: “Stop! Stop! He is wrong! Talk something nice about the king, okay?
“He has 4,000 projects to help the poor, and you’re trying to portray that the king is faking it? The king is not faking! You’re full of shit! Where do you get the fricking information, huh?”
Pavin: “Now you understand the Thai conflict.”
Man: “No, it’s no conflict, it’s you! It’s you the one who made the conflict!”
Organiser: “Can you just wait until…”
Man, pointing in the face of the organiser yet again: “Shut up! No, no, no. We are debating. Stop.”
Organiser: “Let him finish.”
Audience member: “We need security. Call somebody.”
[Continued arguments, Pavin is upset and talks about how unacceptable this behaviour is at an academic talk]Man: “You finish. Then you and I are gonna have a debate. See who’s right. I represent Yale University, they come with me every year to help the poor people of Thailand.
“I help the poor of Thailand. Yale School of Medicine come with me every year. You have to know. You are in this institution who help us to help the king.”
Organiser: “Sir, can you just wait, let him finish the talk. Can we keep going?”
Man: “Go ahead. Finish it.”
Pavin, upset: “I will not go any further, as I know there will not be any productive discussion.”
Man: “Good! Good! Because you are one sided, that’s why. You’re one-sided, you’re just naive.”
Audience member: “We are here just to listen to Ajarn Pavin.”
Man: “So? He finished, right?”
Several audience members: “You didn’t give him a chance to finish!”
Man: “So finish it!”
[More arguments]Audience member: “Can you try to be more polite to all of us as the public, please?”
[Audience applauds. Man and women with him stand to leave]Man, as they are walking out: “It’s wrong! All you did was wrong!”
Woman: “Congratulations, you’re listening to a liar!”
Man: “That’s why they kicked you out of the country! Because you did something wrong!”
Woman: “Somebody bought you! Thaksin bought you!”
Man: “Somebody bought you! How much did you get paid from Thaksin, anyway? How much did you get paid? 50 million baht?”
[Organiser shuts the door on them. Audience applauds again. Talk eventually continues for a few more minutes and concludes]
Yale needs to review their representatives….
Presumably an educated man, just the kind that Thailand does not need. Unfortunately the country has too many already.
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Actually, there are almost no educated here. Most have pieces of paper saying they have an education, but given their environment and forced traditions, education is nearly nonexistent. Thainess rules.
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Very revealing transcript of Thailand Ultra-Royalist Taliban-like fanaticism and hatred….and near total intolerance…
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Someone should post a photo and get the protester’s name. Let us check us his claims about his links to the Yale Medical School and file a formal protest with Yale University.
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Pavin posted the picture of this gentleman on his facebook. This gentleman is obviously an active group member of PDRC New York. Also he seems to be a respectable member of Thai community in New York area as well. You will find his pictures in most of the ceremonies and events organized by the Thai Consulate General in New York. Yale Medical School need to know his name in order to verify his affiliation. Clearly, he is not a faculty member or staff. However, he may used to participate in the school’s exchange medical mission at one point (possibly long time ago).
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A good example of why I remain extremely pessimistic
about the chances of Thailand not breaking up in civil war. In the week Prayut’s military FINALLY got real about Isaarn secession – eg. the “Khon Khaen Model’ raids – we have this uncivil display, in one of the world’s most civil universities.
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The moral capital that the Monarchy lends to the Thai system of bureacratic cronyism is fading every day. It like a game of musical chairs where there are ever fewer seats at the trough for the “good people” to eat at. So much risk for these groups- Royal Network, Military, and Ammat. It looks like they are in complete panic mode. With all the work they are doing to eliminate each other and the progressive groups when do they find time to get any work done?
Is the Khon Kaen Model an Isaan succession movement? I thought they were opposition activists.
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No an iota of difference between the automotons in Thailand and those outside. Fascism with a smile. Wonderful.
That fake love should engender so much real hatred.
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“That fake love should engender so much real hatred.”
Exactly. See the lead-up to the most recent coup. Yellow shirts proclaiming their love for the royal institution while sabotaging elections. The royalists ultimately will destroy the monarchy.
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Thank you for this rather enlightening transcript, again a reminder that all attempts of rational discussion is a problematic venture.
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Nationalistic hecklers have been around for a long time in Thailand.
At the 2007 Mon conference at Chulalongkorn University, following both my presentation and the presentation of the Thai Chula PhD in history student who followed me, men stood up in the audience and delivered meaningless nationalistic tirades under the pretext of asking a question.
I was told this kind of heckling happens all the time and was told to just ignore it.
Perhaps, a formal cross-cultural study of nationalistic heckling is in order 🙂
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I think those two Thai were bought by someone.
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The monarchy in its death throes has spewed up a million little tyrants.
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Yep. The ‘louder is right’ minority strikes again. Still not satisfied with riding the backs of a silent majority.. Everyone, even outside of Galaah-Land, must bend the knee.
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This is a shocking display of uncivilized boorish behavior at a fine academic institution, and if this heckler is an example of educated people who support the monarchy – then there is no future for the country. The man is obviously so brainwashed,and quite pathetic in his insistence that Pavin had taken money from
Taksin, thus trying to cast doubt on his integrity. Shameful!
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Civics, Civility and Civil Society.
Somehow THIS trinity has no place in Thailand.
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There needs to be more open discussions about the monarchy in places like the US. These fanatical and often violent people will convince the world of their insanity.
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I think this man who stated that “I represent Yale University.” and “I am representing Yale!” and You’re full of shit!” is brilliant! I suggest that he train 100 persons to raise their voices in universities, think tanks, and other venues across the world. We could name these teams the “You’re full of shit” brigades. In no time at all, the scales would fall from people’s eyes, audiences would be humbled that representatives of great institutions spoke in such ways. University presidents would thank them for claiming to speak for the university, and the world would better understand the royalist position. Please, Mr. Anonymous — can I call you Mr. “Son of a bitch,” after your wise words? –, take my advice. What could possibly go wrong?
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A shameful attack on professor Pavin and on academic freedom. If anyone could have any doubt that Thai Royalism is the worst kind of Fascism, with a criminal Junta stained with corruption and with crimes against human rights, I suppose now it is crystal clear. All democratic countries should boycott Thailand’s Royalist dictatorship and support all forces struggling for freedom, democracy and justice in that country
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I don’t get why everyone is so upset about Pavin being heckled. Surely it goes with the territory, no?
Pavin has set himself up as yet another commentator (isn’t that pretty much all we have on Thailand? Lots of commentary, little political analysis and no genuine attempts to find long-term political solutions?) and, as such, places his commentary in a public space. Therefore a counterpoint to his position should be expected.
Are we then saying when people “heckle” him – not that I support those actions per se – it’s somehow not allowed or beyond the pale? What constitutes “reasonable” and “allowable” criticism/heckling of Pavin? Or is he above criticism in some way? I’m not suggesting royalists shouting abuse is “reasonable” (it’s not really that bad abuse in this instance) but it does often seem there’s little space for genuine critiques of the likes of Pavin. What about his attempts to create a “celebrity” cult around himself, something which does seem to ape that which surrounds Thai royalty? What about his shifts in position from anti-Red Shirt Abhisit fanboy to doyen of the pro-democracy movement? Sure people shift positions but given Pavin’s public profile and intellectual standing surely it’s appropriate to ask him why and how? Why the need for endless Facebook selfies over political solutions? Will even this post be permitted by New Mandala or will it to be drowned out by heckling from Pavin’s own online fanclub once it’s published?
And, if we do consider such “royalist heckling” as wrong, why not focus more on those who are in far more real danger than Khun Ajarn Pavin, who are actually in Thailand and who are not protected by the sanctity of the academy?
Questions, questions.
This issue could open up far more than “let’s laugh at the demented royalists again”. I mean isn’t the whole idea that “ajarns” have some sanctified status ludicrous in the very first place?
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Equanimity? That heckling should take place in an audience like it was is not unthinkable but it is distasteful, ill-considered and not a matter on a viewpoint being contested. The international criminality behind Thainess is little short of the characteristics of jihad. Similar objectives, similar methods.
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There is a simple answer. The issue here is hardly an issue of mere heckling at Yale, but that the hecklers voice with their accusations convictions which here in Thailand get people arrested and convicted to decades in prison, get people physically attacked and killed, many accused having fled into exile, the families of the accused ostracized and followed by the authorities, and have created a climate of fear and denunciation.
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Yes, Nick, I made that exact point when I wrote
“And, if we do consider such “royalist heckling” as wrong, why not focus more on those who are in far more real danger than Khun Ajarn Pavin, who are actually in Thailand and who are not protected by the sanctity of the academy?”
Let’s hear about those people. Pavin is relatively safer than almost every other person in Thailand right now.
And my original point still remains – does this then mean that there can be NO criticism of Pavin? And that any criticism of him is drowned out by references to his heroic status as he talks at Yale and someone calls him (it’s so appalling I can barely repeat it) a “son of a bitch”? How dreadful it must’ve been!!!! A son of a bitch!! Let’s be frank as well – there’s been far worst “hecking” just on New Mandela. Who was it who once described another journalist as “sweating like a pig”?
This entire Yale event looks fairly positive to me – academic speaks at prestigious university, gets heckled a little bit and said hecklers are escorted out. Happens all the time. Sure there’s the context but within any political struggle there are tensions. Anyone who wants serious change should get used to it – them are the battle lines. You know this.
Thailand isn’t unique in that regard and Thailand isn’t even that unique in having a brutal, vicious government.
Get out more. You’ll get a greater perspective.
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Trying to trivialize the crimes of the Royalist junta…
Disgraceful
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“And, if we do consider such “royalist heckling” as wrong, why not focus more on those who are in far more real danger than Khun Ajarn Pavin, who are actually in Thailand and who are not protected by the sanctity of the academy?”
No one here is likely to acknowledge your point, Heckler. People like Pavin and Pravit Rojanaphruk are heroes to these people, brave beyond measure, and fighting for democracy and all that’s good for Thailand.
Just recently in Khaosod there was an article about Reds in Isan that included a catalogue of the horrors that some have been subject to, some since the coup, others since May 2010.
Among the people I follow on Twitter, including one commenting on this thread, this article was simply ignored.
When Pravit writes about his “two days without sunshine” as the ultimate in suffering under the boot of the evil RTA, the retweets go on for days, it gets picked up by international media, and you would almost believe that the problems in Thailand are all related to “free speech” and the dreaded LM legislation.
The terrorization of Red families by home visits from the RTA, the long terms of imprisonment for Reds found not guilty of whatever it was they were tossed into jail for, the requirement for many to “sign in” once a week with local fascisti: none of these things get the attention that heroes like Pavin and Pravit do. After all, what does democracy have to do with people like these?
And people like Nick Nostitz and his laughable defense of UDD/PT as democracy advocates spend very little time castigating Yingluck and her administration for leaving those Reds to rot in jail while they fought the good fight by ordering faulty tablet computers for grade school kids in order to improve Thai education.
I agree with the late Ben Anderson when he says that the Thai middle classes are “timid, selfish, uncultured, consumerist, and without any decent vision of the future of the country”.
And like most of their fanboys on NM, Pavin and Pravit are first and foremost bourgeoise. The fact that they are Thai seems almost meaningless beside this.
Sorry, but with friends like these, and the foaming mouths on NM, Thai democracy really doesn’t need enemies.
http://prachatai.org/english/node/5692 (for those whose idea of democracy stretches to include the demos)
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And of course, my own personal little stalker Emjay appears again. You just can’t help yourself, you have to go off on a completely tangential snide 😉
Your accusation is rather polemic, and naturally, and again – it is factually wrong. What on earth could Yingluck have done to get the Red Shirts out of jail? She was the head of the executive, and the Red Shirts were convicted by the judiciary, over which the government, and especially the PT government, had no power or influence over. The much attacked amnesty bill – which, for the record, i am and was very critical of as i believe that judicial process has to come before amnesty – would have been the only way to get Red Shirts out of jail.
On many occasions high ranked members of both the government and the UDD have repeatedly (!!!) asked and guaranteed for bail for imprisoned Red Shirts but those requests were most of the time rejected by the courts.
Of course nothing could have been done about LM victims, but that, as we know, is beyond the powers of any elected government.
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Last post by Nostitz makes clear that monarchy and the Royalist establishment are the worst enemies of Thai democracy. Only the abolition of the feudal monarchy will provide a credible chance for democracy, justice and equality in Thailand
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As always, Nick: a little name-calling, a bit of hollow posturing, and a cowardly scamper away from dealing with anything substantive.
When the judiciary and the military are corrupt and universally acknowledged to be acting both unconstitutionally and anti-democratically, who but a democratically elected government blessed with a powerful mandate from the sovereign people of Thailand is supposed to address the problem of illegal detention and unconstitutional laws?
The whole issue of how “celebrity liberals” and propagandists for UDD like yourself take up so much oxygen in the media that there is no chance for more substantive issues to get an airing I’ll forgive you for not quite understanding;
unlike the “pig iron” thing (that no native speaker of English ever thinks of when using that idiom), it takes more than a quick Google to even begin to get a handle on.
And just quickly, to give you something to focus on when the above topics prove too difficult to dismiss with a waving of hands: exactly how do I gain “safety” by not using my real name on NM? Are you going to come and beat me up? Do you imagine the junta can’t trace anything I post back to the frail flesh that squats behind the keyboard? Do tell.
Because it does just seem so “manly” every time you call someone out for anonymity.
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My stalker Emjay – very amusing little rant. Is it envy that makes you so bitter towards me, and interpret something into me that i am clearly not?
What is not substantive by presenting facts? I can only repeat – it is a fact that the government had no power in the question of release of imprisoned Red Shirts. It is a fact that in several judicial cases i have followed, both Red Shirt leaders and PT big wigs have tried to get the accused Red Shirts released on bail, such as the Saichon Paebua/Pinit Channarong Central World arson case. What else can i say? I cannot invent what you would wish to hear when facts clearly speak against your little opinions. An intelligent person should let facts guide ones opinion, and not the other way around.
As to me being a propagandist for the UDD or the PT – boring, boring, boring. I can only refer you to the many occasions where i have quite clearly stated facts that speak against the UDD narrative, such as that i have always and quite clearly pointed out that there were and are armed militants under the Red Shirts (as there are in the many incarnations of the Yellow Shirts), for which i have been attacked, also here on New Mandala. A propagandist would hardly do that. It appears that you operate under the principle of ‘let the truth not get in the way of a good story’. I don’t.
Well, there are some native English (and naturally German, and whatever else nationality) speakers whose command of their own language exhausts itself in grunts. That though does not mean that certain idioms are idioms and have a known history, even if they don’t know that. Writers however should be aware of that before creating an issue out of nothing to serve their own agenda of hatred. Didn’t work then, won’t work now.
As to anonymity, it is in your particular case, as in some other of the trolls here, a question of manners, of which you have shown over time very little. Neither have you contributed much else than negativity. It is of course much easier to stalk and to be insulting when one does not reveal one’s true identity. In this case it is indeed a question of courage – of moral courage. You obviously do lack in that department.
So, can we please not make this yet again about *me*, as this isn’t about me, but about ultra-royalist hecklers at Yale who are representative of some very concerning developments in Thailand. Please go and stalk somebody else.
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I think you will find the royalists and their extended circles also put a great deal of emphasis on “manners” and find that one of the problems with the whole idea of democracy is having to deal with people they consider rude.
As is evident from time to time and place to place, using the notion of manners to shut down a particular way of speaking, even particular topics, is depressingly standard.
In this case, a rude sonofabitch royalist is being castigated apparently for a breach of manners when in actual fact it is nothing more or less than the usual “us” versus “them” bollocks that animates most Thai-related threads on NM.
*And Nick, thanks for the psychological analysis but I suggest you stick to your day job. Or maybe just do the teenie thing and say something like “haters gotta hate” and leave it at that.
My moral courage is fine by my lights and your obvious craven toadying to the UDD/PT side of things is not, in my opinion.
There have been a few times when I have yet again recognized that you are one of these “last word” people and just dropped a “debate” and let you do your little insult dance and repeat yet again one of the mantras that the UDD/PT apologists pull out again and again to justify their own role in subverting Thai democracy. So who is stalking who Nick? Just let it rest.
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Emjay, accusing me of “subverting Thai democracy” is bringing absurdity to a new peak. Taking pictures of street events and writing about them – what is basically all that i am doing – hardly has that level of influence.
I am sure you will not take the friendly advice i am giving you now, but i still have to voice it: trying to pull yourself up by constant attempts to put others down will not get you taken any serious, especially when your strategic deliberations, as i just read on another discussion, on the creation of a liberal democracy in Thailand extend themselves to the delusion of some non-existent “progressive colonels” teaming up with a “a democratic political grouping/party” to do a coup. This is a nonsensical notion which shows a complete lack of knowledge on Thai power structures.
It is perfectly fine to disagree with me, but then, instead of just attacking me by insulting me as a “UDD/PT toad” (which i quite clearly am not – and time and time again i have proven this by passages of my articles, such as not following UDD narrative in many instances, publishing a critical interview with Thaksin, etc), do come up with well funded counter arguments based on more fact than just your opinion, please.
For example – you accuse UDD leaders and PT MP’s of having let Red Shirts rot in prison. There have been some articles published by especially LM victims, accusing UDD leaders of having not supported them. While there may be some truth in this accusation, it also depends on which leaders. There has to be space for counter arguments again. I can only say that i have taken pictures of UDD leaders, especially Tida and Weng, having handed over substantial amounts of money to support released prisoners, and also on numerous funerals of killed Red Shirts to their relatives.
The UDD leadership is not a unified block, it comprises of many factions who have conflicts with each other and individual leaders are quite different in style and ideology. Some are indeed somewhat self serving, some are corrupt, and others are not and trying their best.
Therefore, your accusation of me being a “UDD toad” is quite wrong – some leaders i do respect, and others i do not. I can hardly be a “PT Toad” as my work rarely brings me into contact with the PT party – i am not particularly interested in taking pictures of parliamentary politics, and when PT was in government, i only went once or twice to parliament during the entire time when i had business there. The PT people i do know personally are only the ones who had a role in street politics, or whose job was to be in contact with the foreign media.
More or less the same counts for my relationship with the Democrat Party, though i have to say that presently the amount of well known people left in that quarter i have some personal respect for i can count on one finger, given what took place during the PDRC protests.
It may surprise you, but my life does not revolve around rubbing shoulders and wining and dining with important people. Quite the opposite.
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Heckler, you seem to be another one of those brave souls who love to snipe from the safety of anonymity.
First of all, regarding the “sweating like a pig” comment that at the time had some people up in arms. I really wonder where your command of the English language comes from. This is a well known and used idiom in the English language, and actually not derives from ‘pig’ the animal, but from ‘pig iron’ and the smelting process.
This issue was at the time used by certain quarters, who for years have been spreading vicious rumors about me trying to discredit me, and trying to get me kicked out of the FCCT, which did not work, naturally. But thank you for letting that slip, at least i now know which quarter you are from, maybe even who you are. 😉
And again, personalizing this issue as regards to Pavin is a bit of a simplistic approach. But it seems that lateral thinking is not exactly your strength.
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ЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯСПЁЯСП
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Excellent reply by Nick Nostitz ; he made it clear to that Fascist-friendly, frivolous “Heckler” that what it is going on today in Thailand under the Royalist/Military tyranny is an outrage to any human being who cares about freedom, justice and human rights
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“Will even this post be permitted by New Mandala or will it to be drowned out by heckling from Pavin’s own online fanclub once it’s published?”
Is it really necessary to point out a basic and key difference between actual “heckling” & the claimed “heckling” here? Seems so… The first is interruption during a live event – while the second is sequential (i.e. B doesn’t stop A… B merely follows A). How can the second be interruption when nothing gets stopped and all of A’s and B’s words are still there for all to read/re-read as they please?
To call the second “heckling” makes as little sense as claiming that down-voting somehow “drowns out” what anyone posts – a favourite refrain of some here.
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Heckler’s non-sequitur post and replicating it in another message is puzzling.If he is really ignorant of the reason that he apparently does not hear from problems in Thailand related to rights and freedom abrogation by the military-led dictatorship,perhaps he wants first-hand experience there to find out first-hand what happens when someone does try to expose the charade. In Thailand that heckler would have been applauded by the ilk now pulling the strings, but respected in fear and silence by those in Thailand who deserve and crave rights and freedom. Bombastic remarks about failure of coverage in Thailand on people striving to break free of iron chains isn’t much more than another kind of heckling.
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I don’t understand, why the self-presentation of that funny guy is discussed at all. Usually discussion only make sense, if argumnents are used that make sense. Reading the statements from such ultra-petty bourgois, I find nothing that makes sense and thus it is a waste of time to argue. You can only argue with people who are willing and ABLE to engage in reasonable discussion.
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Yes, I agree with the last comment. We gave too much importance to that pompous so-called “Heckler”, who is nothing more than a troll for the Royalist Junta
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Is it not about time that royalists in Thailand faced up to reality? Rather than “shooting the messenger” (in this case Pavin) who has merely indicated a. the mortality of the present king and b. the many caveats concerning his putative successor, is it not behoven on them to go beyond instrumentalising the throne to protect their own self-interests?
Rather they need to propose a ‘roadmap’ (to use a bit of ASEAN speak dear to the present civilianized junta) for a new post-Bhumibol monarchical role. George III (and especially Victoria) managed to do it, Louis XVI, alas, failed. Lessons to be learnt?
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Seems even US Ambassador Glyn Davies may now have committed LM !! : http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/790873/us-mum-but-rights-groups-decry-us-ambassador-lm-inquiry
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