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Earlier today it was announced that Ampon Tangnoppakul, also known as “Ar Kong”, has passed away. The 62-year-old grandfather was serving a 20 year sentence after being convicted of lese majeste for sending SMS messages. He will forever be known as “Uncle SMS”.
It was always a tragic and wasteful situation. Now, with their lack of leniency and compassion, the Thai authorities have digraced the kingdom.
Ar Kong was hoping for a royal pardon. This is a sad day indeed.
Previous coverage of Ar Kong’s tragic predicament is available here, here and here. This article also has some useful details on his case and its context, as does this earlier report.
Condolences to his family and friends at this sorrowful time.
I first saw the notice on the Thai language side of Prachatai today. The total contradiction against Buddhist tenets of the railroaded process against him from the first Abhisit secretary filing through police and the prosecutor and court was a sad study in man’s inhumanity against man. I trust that God will hand out justice to those involved.
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Rest in peace,
It’s shameful for Thailand’s justice system, a prisoner couldn’t get bailed to defend himself in this kind of crime.
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We are all Ah Kong.
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What an awful tragedy, both for Ar Kong’s family and Thailand. The royalists live in a bubble of their own.
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We know now how much weight we have to give to the words of the Thai boss. Nobody really receives a pardon after all. Shame on Thailand.
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The King, through his assent to this vile law and his acquiscence to have the lese majeste prisoners jailed, has KILLED Ar Kong.
Yes, in my opinion, if there is someone who is responsible for Ar Kong’s death, it is the King himself.
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This sad case has truely disgraced the Kingdom of Thailand. One can only dream now that a posthumous pardon would be granted to at least restore Ah Kong’s honour for his family.
R.I.P. Ah Kong
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One of the worst things about this whole case is that, where a person is presumed innocent unless proven guilty, he was convicted on the grounds that “he could not prove his innocence”.
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Nothing is cheaper than the lives of Thais to those who run Thailand.
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RIP Ar Khong.
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‘One can only dream now that a posthumous pardon … ‘
A posthumous pardon … that’s exactly up their alley … pardon themselves for murdering Amphon. Add insult to the most grievous possible injury. That’s the Thai ‘elite’ specialty …. tearfully forgiving themselves for murdering Thais.
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I would have half swallowed this if he had been conclusively proven guilty of violating the laws of the land even if I do not agree with the law.
The thing is, he was convicted based on not having a proper defense. Since when is the onus of proof on the defendant in a criminal case ? Even in Thailand the prosecution has the burden of proof.
Furthermore it is absolutely technically possible to clone a SIM card and it is technically still possible to spoof IMEI numbers on certain mobile phones so it seems if I don’t like someone, I just need my hands on their phone SIM card for a bit so I can clone them. Few months later they are in jail. Ridiculous.
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Can judiciary in Thailand be charged with murder, or manslaughter?
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Today, perhaps rather belatedly, for the first time, I feel genuine shame at the fact that I live in Thailand. As Pavin said in Matichon Online, I just hope now that those responsible for imprisoning a sick, elderly and innocent man get their just rewards. And soon.
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On Facebook there is a note https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000942179021&sk=wall indicating that people are gathering in front of the Criminal Court wearing black to demonstrate respect for this victim of what many see as judicial murder.
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We should have 2 minutes silence nation wide.
Its the least we could do.
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They say if you can’t do the time don’t do the crime, so those deliberately flaunting LM laws know what awaits. In this case though the evidence seemed flimsy against an old man who by all accounts held the institution in high regard. A tragic outcome, I would have thought that great PR value was begging on this one for timely leniency, seems TPTB thought otherwise.
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112 minutes, to be exact.
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Well, he now is a martyr. First this haunting image and now he had to die in prison like this. What a tragedy.
There are a million stupid, nasty, insane things said, texted, written on the internet every day. And of all the people who are punished.
Someone please tell his family, those children in that picture, that this man is Thailand. The best of Thailand.
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# 14 Dan
“Today, perhaps rather belatedly, for the first time, I feel genuine shame at the fact that I live in Thailand. As Pavin said in Matichon Online, I just hope now that those responsible for imprisoning a sick, elderly and innocent man get their just rewards. And soon.”
This is not me. Whoever posted this, have you no shame?…… Hideous. To even exploit the death of this man and the suffering of his family to try and score points against someone you do not even know? Some people truly have no shame. Horrific.
RIP Ar Kong. A victim of horrendous brutality and insane injustice. I think his end will fill a lot of people with a cold fury…. I does me.
The Mods at New Mandala need to sort out their stalker problem. It is out of hand…..
[Thanks Dan (White): I don’t see evidence of the “stalker problem”. “Dan” is a pretty common name. But we will, of course, keep an eye on this. The other “Dan” who has emerged may want to choose a different moniker. Best wishes to all, Nich]
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My thoughts are with Ah Kong’s wife, Pa Ou, and his family tonight.
Who imprisoned him? Look to Abhisit.
Who lacked the courage to release him? Pheu Thai.
Who failed to tell the world about the terrible injustice of LM? Amnesty, HRW and most of the Bangkok-based international media (as far as I’m aware not one single correspondent of note has taken the time to visit any LM prisoner. When I spoke to the prisoners in Feb 2012 they all said they had never even seen AI or HRW at the prison).
I was lucky enough to meet Ah Kong three times in prison. I conducted two short interviews with him and plan to blog this on Friday.
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Have the Bangkok ‘Elite’ no shame?
No sense of decency?
No Respect for humanity?
Are they sipping Wine and Eating Cheese in Bistros in Siam Center?
History will remember them unkindly!
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Speechless!!!
р╣Бр╕Фр╣Ир╕нр╕▓р╕Бр╕З
Chimes of Freedom:
Bob Dylan
Tolling for the searching ones on their speechless seeking trail
For the lonesome hearted lovers with too personal a tale
And for each unharmful, gentle soul misplaced inside a jail
And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing
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Whoever supports this barbaric law has blood on their hands. There is no humanity.
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And quicker than a Bangkok minute after the news of Amphon’s death, it was very publicly announced that the Ministry of Justice approved a pardon for Joe Gordon, and that it has been forwarded to the Bureau of the Royal Household.
American jailed in Thailand for insulting monarchy to be released?
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There were about 400-500 people gathered at the criminal court last night and another of the same amount at Klong Prem prison, quite impressive number.
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Dan White – Dan is indeed a very common name and the internet is a big place. I have zero idea who you are and somewhat less than zero interest in stalking you; it turns out you’re perhaps not quite as significant as you think you are.
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HRH Princess Chulabhorn told us the King is attentive & follows news.
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Freedom 24
The sad fact is that the people who support the barbaric law believe they have the moral right, authority and duty to apply it judicially (or extra-judicially). The argument is over the identification of morality and the morality (or otherwise) of justice.
And of course all people in all societies can be conditioned to go along with immoral laws, ( often more easily than moral ones) if educated appropriately and with appeal to their ego, vanity and elevated sense of self-superiority. To attack the gods of any inculcated belief system is to invite isolation, opprobrium and probably annihilation since evolution favors survival of the group rather than the individual.
The striving towards the ideal of human rights and individual freedom continues against the face of human and natural law.
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Well she has an impeccable bloodline – she must be right.
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#14 Nich
“But we will, of course, keep an eye on this. The other “Dan” who has emerged may want to choose a different moniker. Best wishes to all, Nich]”
Do please keep an eye on it Nich. It is something that has been happening fairly systematically on New Mandala (‘pro democracy’ John Smith etc etc).
The incarceration and death of Ar Kong is a tragedy for those personally affected and a disaster for Thailand as a nation. It is inhumane, unjust and cruel.
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The demonstration of the power of the rulers appears to require a poor, sick and old man’s life.
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I feel such an immense sense of shame. I’m not even Thai. I wonder if the Thai extreme royalists do too?
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I’m sorry for Ah Kong and his family.
The immediate questions that come to my mind are…
Who will preside over his funeral? Where do wreaths come from? Will Abhisit or his representative do something? How will the government, the invisible hand, the invisible man, etc. react to this?
The reason of his death is also unclear though. It is hard to comment further before the postmortem report is available to the public.
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When the monarchist spies look at this thread, about the death of a poor old man in misery, they should look at the amount of support CT’s post (6) is receiving…… and SHIVER. Their days of power are numbered.
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How much is Ah Kong’s death being reported in the Thai language press?
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Shame on all those on both sides of the political divide who through their actions or ‘non-actions’ have contributed to this man’s demise. If ever there was a case for invoking the lese-majeste laws it is now, and against all of those people who, for their own political ambitions, have brought Thailand into disrepute.
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My sympathies go to Ah Kong’s family. He was a victim of an archaic “justice” system that cracks down mercilessly on people of no consequence like him but lets sons of well connected politicians get away with murder.
Let it also be said that Ah Kong was equally a victim the anti-monarchy wing of the red shirt movement that he got mixed up with without understanding what it was or how ruthlessly and cynically it would exploit him, given a chance. They rubbed their hands with glee when they discovered him as a perfect poster boy for their anti-monarchy campaign. His red shirt lawyer advised him that he could get him off, if he pleaded not guilty, and proceeded to mount a feeble defence that he knew would result in conviction and a stiff sentence, whereas as a guilty plea would have resulted in a much lighter sentence and, in all probability, a royal pardon soon after conviction in view of his age and infirmity. Ah Kong was further advised by his red shirt legal team that he should appeal his conviction which also made him ineligible for a royal pardon. It seems that he just starting to reconsider this towards the end of his life on the pragmatic advice of the Corrections Department and against the self serving advice of the red shirt lawyers who knew his appeal would have been hopeless.
Given the confusion surrounding the actual sending of the SMS messages, and the failure of the defence team to provide convincing evidence that the messages could have been sent remotely, it would not be at all surprising if the messages were deliberately sent by a fellow red shirt activist to set him up.
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Please take this short Ah Kong survey. Thanks
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N97FXXS
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@Anouvong wrote:
“I feel such an immense sense of shame. I’m not even Thai. I wonder if the Thai extreme royalists do too?”
Unfortunately no. If you go to manager.co.th website which is the hangout for Thai brainwashed royalists, they all said it is karma bites for person who do not respect the ‘father of the Thais’, he deserves to die for not loving the king, those who do not love King are traitors and they believe he will rot in hell.
And I agree and disagree. I disagree that Ar Kong deserves to die. I disagree that the King is the father of the Thais. I disagree that anyone who does not love the King will rot in hell.
But I agree about karma. What goes around will come around. The King has, arguably indirectly, killed Ar Kong. karma will bit him and his family. I also believe in heaven and hell. And if hell really exists, then I believe it is the King who will go there, not Ar Kong. The King’s sin of assenting to this vile law will earn him a place in hell for years to come, if hell really exists.
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I don’t think the King killed Amphon … but I certainly do wonder why he has not lifted a finger to put an end to The Inquisition carried on in his name, lo these many years now. I think that’s an absolutely legitimate question to ask.
I think that the judge(s) who sentenced Amphon to prison … for being unable to prove his innocence … and of course the cruel and callous jailers are directly responsible for Amphon’s death.
Of course this particular inquisition was begun by Abhisit Vejjajiva and Somkiat Krongwattanasuk working in tandem. Using Amphon as a pawn in the Royal Thai Army’s program of terror.
And the Puea Thai party bears responsibility as well, not only for Amphon’s death but for all those it has abandoned to the Royal Thai Army/Royalist Thai ‘elite’ Inquisitors, in its effort to reintegrate itself with the ruling Thai ‘elite’.
The news of Map Ta Phut, the men whose equipment collapsed , now Amphon … to the Royalist Thai ‘elite’ the lives of Thais really are cheap, and are completely expendable in the pursuit of money and power. To all the 1% world wide, of course, but the Thai ‘elite’ seems so smug, gleeful even, to see the utter destruction of their ‘underlings’ unfold. Elsewhere the 1% has some fear, and hence grudging respect for its victims, but not in Thailand.
The ‘elite’ are ’embarrassed’, as The Nation says, to be seen to be as cruel as they are … but it’s all about their image, about themselves, really. They really just do not care about the Thai people. About any people other than themselves, apparently. And when they feel they are among themselves they seem not at all embarrassed or apologetic about it.
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@#39
Have you seen any English translations of the comments knocking around?
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Jack Radcliffe: Isn’t the summary CT provided enough? I imagine a few of the comments are personally directed at Ah Kong and I wouldn’t want to read any of them in this thread. Let us reserve some sanctity for Ah Kong
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Ar Kong’s death is the best possible outcome for the royalist.
As long as he live, he’ll continue to be a thorn and a symbol.
He’s frail, old, and (luckily) have cancer. Cancer kill him, period.
This will all be swept under the rug and mainstream medias will continue to report which celeb f*ck whom.
No body want to stir the shit pot, especially for a dead, poor (literally) old man.
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Marteau #38,
Your post has no factual content and looks like nothing more than an failed attempt to blame the crimes of the elite on the red shirts. But as the votes indicate, people are much smarter than the right wingers, junta apologists and ultra-royalists think they are.
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Marteau 38
Let it also be said that Ah Kong was equally a victim the anti-monarchy wing of the red shirt movement that he got mixed up with without understanding what it was or how ruthlessly and cynically it would exploit him,
Beg your pardon, did the red shirt somehow got the old man arrest? Furthermore, it would have been a non-issue if the royalist didn’t come up with the law in the first place. Noted that Ar kong is not the first victim here, there were hundreds other that has been convicted from this grotesque law. By the law of nature, there’s no reaction without an action.
His red shirt lawyer advised him that he could get him off, if he pleaded not guilty, and proceeded to mount a feeble defence that he knew would result in conviction and a stiff sentence,
Where on earth did you get that info from?? Anon Nampa, his lawyer, used to be in the yellow shirt camp even, you can check his facebook for all the story. Furthermore, according to the man himself, he has already discussed the posible option whether to plead guilty or not, you can go to the man facebook and ask him.
Given the confusion surrounding the actual sending of the SMS messages, and the failure of the defence team to provide convincing evidence that the messages could have been sent remotely, it would not be at all surprising if the messages were deliberately sent by a fellow red shirt activist to set him up.
If you read the case you should know that the defendant has already pointed out that EMI number is not a unique no. and rather easy to forge. Again, where did you get all that from?? dont tell me you read it from the like of Nation or Manager.
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John Francis Lee #40. I would certainly not absolve Somkiat Krongwattanasuk for pressing ahead with the senseless prosecution over some trivial childish messages received on his phone from someone he didn’t even know. Nor would I absolve Abhisit Vejjajiva, who was surely consulted, for not advising him to just delete the mystery messages and move on with his life.
Equally you are right in assigning blame to the Puea Thai party for doing nothing to try to unravel any of the unjust messes being caused by Section 112 prosecutions. This is apart from their policy of explicit support for Section 112 as it stands, which they obviously see as a way to demonstrate their questionable loyalty and a useful tool for them to use against political rivals. Why on earth would they wish to defang or abolish something so politically useful? Such a reform would also inevitably lead in short order to calls to reform the commoner equivalent of Section 112 which is the notorious, archaic criminal libel law that has been used by Thaksin with enormous gusto to silence critics and political rivals. His asinine comments on Section 112 stuttered to the adoring red shirt crowd give a clear indication of his stalwart support for it. Red shirts supporters who have been naively looking to Puea Thai to reform Section 112 had better start looking for another colour shirt because it ain’t never gonna happen.
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@Jack #41
I think Andrew MacGregor Marshall would have it. A lot of his Thai friends on Facebook translated for him. But what I said above that the Royalists were happy that Ar Kong died was the gist of their thinking. I would not urge you to read those Royalists’ comments in full. They are unbelievably ignorant, pathetic, brainwashed, brutal, barbaric, and disgusting. Even I could not stand reading more than ten of such comments. As a Thai, I feel unbelievably sad and frustrated that my fellow countrymen have this kind of mentality.
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An interesting story over at zenjournalist with all the details of what was really in the SMS messages.They are towards the bottom of the post. Do not read read them if you are squeamish about rough language.
It will give you a rough idea what gets you 20 years in the slammer, or in this case a death sentence.
Thanks to PPT for the link.
http://www.zenjournalist.com/2012/05/a-tale-of-two-grandfathers/
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‘ Red shirts supporters who have been naively looking to Puea Thai to reform Section 112 had better start looking for another colour shirt because it ain’t never gonna happen. ‘
I think you’re right there, although I’m not as happy about their betrayal by Puea Thai as as you seem to be.
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Thanks for the link to A tale of two grandfathers. I missed it at PPT.
It is a terse statement of the facts of Amphon’s and justice’ abuse by the Royalist ‘elite’ and the irony of the parallel drawn rings true.
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Both PPT and Zenjournalist generate the usual
“р╕Вр╕нр╕нр╕ар╕▒р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕кр╕░р╕Фр╕зр╕Б
р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕гр╕зр╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Др╣Вр╕Щр╣Вр╕ер╕вр╕╡р╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕кр╕▓р╕г р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕│р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕гр╕░р╕Зр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Ьр╕вр╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕Лр╕Фр╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Кр╕б
р╣Ар╕Щр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╕ар╕▓р╕Ю р╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕б р╣Бр╕ер╕░ р╣Ар╕Щр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕░р╕кр╕б р╕кр╕нр╕Ър╕Цр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕нр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╣Ар╕Юр╕┤р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕Хр╕┤р╕бр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Чр╕╡р╣И
р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕гр╕зр╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Др╣Вр╕Щр╣Вр╕ер╕вр╕╡р╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕кр╕▓р╕г р╣Вр╕Чр╕г 0 2141 6950”…
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We have had copies of the SMS evidence for several months but had no part whatsoever in publishing such material which, as I understand it, was done without consulting family members of Ah Kong who at this point haven’t even completed their funeral rites.
I should also say the actual real effects of publishing that material at such a moment are likely to be detrimental to the family, whom we know have been recipients of a long-standing hate campaign. This has extended even to Ah Kong’s grandchildren. I would imagine that the publishing of the SMSs are only likely to add to these kind of vile hate campaigns.
While there might be a desire when safe in the confines of Canberra, London or Singapore to publish the “truth”, persons in those locations, including myself, won’t feel the effects and consequences of taking such an action.
Anyone who knew the case well would also know that the key piece of evidence wasn’t the contents of the SMSs but the origin of them. As I understand it Thai mobile phone experts refused to testify in court – a testimony that would have added sufficient ambiguity to the prosecution’s case to render it unsubstantiated.
If anything is to be done now to aid the application of posthumous justice for Ah Kong it would be the quiet work of finding the right kind of expert outside of Thailand to prove that that sufficient ambiguity existed and working to publish their findings.
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Andrew Spooner: The family have already suffered something ‘detrimental’ in losing Ah Kong, and as part of their ‘funeral rites’ included dragging the coffin to the criminal court I think they can stand this. Regarding the trial, I read they brought in two ‘experts’ to explain the messages so that evidence was actually important. (Note the key part of Somkiat’s testimony involved him insisting how he was so moved by the content of the messages.) I also read that a German mobile phone expert was barred from giving evidence.
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I am with Andrew Spooner here. Revealing the 4 SMS messages would only expose Ah Kong’s family, other lese majeste victims and activists countering LM law to greater disadvantage. The hate campaign would mount up and even the originally neutral by-standers may take think Ah Kong deserved it. Anti-LM campaign can be dragged into confrontation and little progress may be expected if the hyper royalists drum up protests too.
Andrew Spooner is also correct about the essential evidence is not the content of SMS but the origin. The SMS texts were expectable even if they were not released. But the sender and the recipient of these SMS are the utmost crucial key to doing Ah Kong the justice.
My heart is with Ah Kong, his family, and many other LM victims.
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“Of course this particular inquisition was begun by Abhisit Vejjajiva and Somkiat Krongwattanasuk working in tandem. Using Amphon as a pawn in the Royal Thai Army’s program of terror.”
Asked about the case at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand recently, Abhisit said he was unaware of it until he read about it in the newspapers, at which point it was already in court. Unless you can present evidence to prove he was lying, then you’re just making stuff up and the liar is you.
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The king made his views on 112 clear in 2005 when Thaksin was prime minister. He said the law damages the monarchy, cases should be dropped and prisoners freed. The king does not make or rescind legislation. The politicians do. All he can do is speak out against it, which he did, and pardon those convicted.
If the politicians don’t listen to him, well, isn’t that what a lot of those posting here want anyway?
Now, I’ve seen comments here before claiming that the king must have given different signals or ‘instructions’ behind the scenes. But there has never been any proof of that. Not in any wikileaks cables or anywhere else.
Thaksin and those who followed could have acted to amend 112 and defended themselves against any backlash with the king’s own words. Yet, they did not. They should be asked to explain themselves.
Until they do, posts like the one made by CT are not only at odds with the facts, they are childish.
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JG45
Abhisit can’t even get the facts straight about his own citizenship and what nationality he used when he enrolled at Oxford. What was Abhisit’s line when confronted with Robert Amsterdam’s recent documentary evidence that he had been a registered voter in the UK? “I can’t remember.”
Abhisit is a proven liar and dissembler. That is without doubt and backed up by incontrovertible evidence.
Knowing what I know about Abhisit – that not only is he a proven liar but that he is also a complete control freak – I personally find his denials about that he wasn’t aware a close political aide was filing charges on this matter completely unbelievable.
Abhisit has a long record of lying, misinforming and also of a lack of compassion to the point he is prepared to kill dozens of unarmed Thais.
So it’s not a question of evidence at this point – it’s a question of whether Abhisit is a reliable witness. He isn’t. At all.
I don’t believe him and, in fact, my belief is that he likely encouraged his staff member to press charges.
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The case of “Uncle SMS” highlights the incompetence of the Thai judicial system,. Incompetent or corrupt lawyers who do not understand technical details about IMEI numbers and who present evidence themselves instead of asking experts to explain it to the courts are part of the problem. Anyone with a decade old phone has a fair chance that his or her IMEI is cloned hundreds of times. We all remember the shops unlocking phones on every street corner.
Crooked prosecutors who act on behalf of their political puppet masters and who do not search for evidence but are in the game to convict people instead of finding the truth, could have known that anyone could have send an SMS by simply changing a SIM or by using a phone with a cloned IMEI. Crooked judges who are in the habit of kissing Royal Boots and do not want to be seen as lenient are to blame too. They lack all the basic standards that you might expect from judges. The bottom line is that Thailand is a banana kingdom when it comes to justice.
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Speaking of witch hunts, Karntoop was at the rally at the criminal court yesterday – there are some with a bit of spunk out there. (Interestingly she spoke out against the Red-Shirt involvement.)
MAcG just posted the Thai language translation of his piece. Right now only one other site has published the offending messages – we’ll see if that figure shoots up.
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@jg45 #56
The king did pay some lip service in favor of amending the lese majeste law in 2005. Has he done anything else?
The problem is not that politicians are not listening. The problem is that they will likely be kicked out of the country by an ultra-royalist mob supported by the army if they do try to change it.
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Many thanks to laoguy #49 for sharing the link to “A tale of two grandfathers”. It is also now available in Thai here: http://www.zenjournalist.com/2012/05/р╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Ыр╕╣р╣И/
Since the Ministry of Information and Communications Technology is now blocking my blog, the post is also available on Facebook. It’s in English here: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=424043510948327 and in Thai here: http://www.facebook.com/notes/andrew-macgregor-marshall/р╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Ыр╕╣р╣Ир╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕гр╕▓р╕ар╕▓р╕Ю/425081504177861
In response to Andrew Spooner, #52, of course I can’t reveal my sources but it should be obvious that I would not have received the content of the SMS messages and published them if those close to him were against this.
It’s disappointing that some of those who claim to be against 112 also believe that information should be suppressed.
Best wishes
Andrew MacGregor Marshall
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It’s also important to make clear that when the king said in 2005 that he can “do wrong”, the implicit message was not the same as the superficial message.
Michael K. Connors explains why here: http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2008/09/king-can-do-wrong.html
As Ji Ungpakorn said this week :
“King Pumipon has limited powers. He cannot order the military to stage coups or to gun down pro-democracy demonstrators, although he provides legitimacy for such vile actions afterwards. But one thing that Pumipon HAS the power to do is to say that lèse majesté must no longer be used and all lèse majesté prisoners should be immediately released. After all, the Thai ruling class claim that this barbaric law is there to protect Pumipon. Yet Pumipon said not a word about releasing the prisoners. He does not care a fig about ordinary Thai people, and shows more affiliation with his pet dogs. This is not the first time that Pumipon has remained silent and allowed innocent people like Aa-Kong to die. He remained silent when 3 innocent palace servants were executed for his brother’s death. Pumipon knew they were innocent because he was there when his brother died of a gun-shot wound.”
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/ji-ungpakorn-on-ampols-passing/
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MacG: > “I can’t reveal my sources but it should be obvious that I would not have received the content of the SMS messages and published them if those close to him were against this”
Sorry, I’m afraid it’s not obvious. You’re trying to insinuate that you received the the content from ‘those close to him’ or got the encouragement to publish from ‘those close to him’. Come out with it Andrew – ‘those close to him’ is a big enough group.
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If we’re going to quote Ji Ungpakorn can we at least go to the source:
http://redthaisocialist.com/english-article/53-human-rights/347-pumipon-abhisit-and-yingluk-killed-aa-kong.html
it’s also less likely to be blocked. Alternate link that’s even less likely to be blocked:
http://links.org.au/node/2858
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@JG45 (#55-56)
Sorry, but it is you who are childish if you still believe the BS that the King was blabbering on his 2005 Birthday. And I will tell you why you are so childish and ignorant right now.
Do you have any idea how the legislation process in Thailand works? At first, the Parliament enacts the law, then they present to the king, and then the King signs it. In other words, if the King does not sign any law, it will never become law.
Hence, if the King really believes in the BS he was babbling in 2005, what he would have done is he would have never signed to assent for lese majeste to have a place in the Thai provisions in the first place. But he did. He gave his assent to it. And he has witnessed people being jailed for lese majeste one by one, without doing anything to stop this calamity.
If he really believes in the BS he said in 2005, what he would do is he would order the prison officials to release all LM prisoners immediately. But no, he didn’t do that. All he did was procrastinating up there on the 16th Floor at Siriraj Hospital, watching LM prisoners rot in jail as if it was nothing. If you are a person who has even an ounce of morality left in you, would you do the same thing the King is doing?
Please save your childish defence of your sinful King at home. Don’t come and show your ignorance over here. I am sick of you Royal fanatics enough that I don’t visit your manager.co.th hangout. Don’t come and babble your childish drivel over here. Thank you very much!
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#61 Andrew – “Since the Ministry of Information and Communications Technology is now blocking my blog”
It’s not blocked. I have accessed it from three different places across Bangkok in the last couple of days….. Astonishing that they haven’t blocked it….. This means either they are woefully incompetent or they have a reason for leaving it unblocked….. A reason that could only be sinister and worrying…. Can they log visitors from the provider to IP addresses?….
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Well no, I don’t support the suppression of knowledge or information. Without transparency there can’t be justice. This information concerning the contents of these SMSs should have been placed in the public arena before the trial. The contents of the SMSs are trivial stupid junk. They should have been plastered all over the internet. In this way the whole world gets to see how precious the royal family is. It is unbelievable that an honest journalist would collaborate with the establishment to keep the population in a state of ignorance. I can well understand why a journalist working Thailand might think it healthier to suppress this information but that doesn’t make it right and there is so many other ways it could have been released. The contents of the SMSs don’t seem to be contested (I don’t know why) just their origins.
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AMM
I don’t believe this information should be “suppressed” and have never even come close to suggesting that. In fact a few days ago on my Facebook page I wrote that it should’ve been aired and examined fully in court.
On this forum I have simple questioned the timing and ethics of the release of the SMSs.
I should state myself and my partner have been in close and regular contact with the family for quite some time. We make no claim to speak on their behalf or to represent their views or any campaign to free Ah Kong. What I can say is at no time did the family suggest to us that the SMS content be translated, published and distributed online.
We’ve also spoken to family members since the death. They are, in our opinion, in no shape and no position to make an informed and consensual decision about publishing the documents and I find it hard to believe that such consent was given or sought.
A balance has to be made between public interest and the safety/well-being of the family. The latter, for me, outweighs the former at this point.
In my view, as I stated earlier, combining the release of the SMSs with a more thorough examination of the evidence, which should include, in my opinion, speaking to a mobile phone expert in order to examine the claim that Ah Kong was a source of the messages, would be a more effective strategy.
We can’t evade our responsibilities if we publish information. Yes, openness is important but the effects of that also needs to be measured and taken into account when doing so.
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A Pheu Thai MP, who is also a doctor, Prof Dr Cherdchai, is questioning the medical care that Ah Kong received in his final hours.
It seems that not only was palliative care completely absent but that no real attempts were made to resuscitate or prolong his life.
This is a complete and total disgrace.
http://www.khaosod.co.th/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRNek5qVTFPVGMzTUE9PQ==&subcatid=
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That Pheu Thai doctor, who is also an MP, should be questioning a lot more besides the medical care that Ah Kong received.
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If someone did not like a law that was designed to protect them, couldn’t they withhold assent to that law?
(and give appropriate explanations & reasoning)
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The person who (what they say) is being most moral in Thailand got smashed on his face by Ah Kong’s case.
Pretty sure Joe Gordon will be released in this few days, they can not hold the case that long as Minister of justice of Thailand said the case has been sent to the Bureau of the Royal Household.
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Andrew Spooner #67
As you say, you don’t speak for the family and don’t represent their views. But I respect your opinion, even though I disagree with it, and it is certainly valid to debate whether publishing the SMS messages was the right thing to do. One thing I would ask however is that you try to avoid insinuations that I have behaved somehow dishonestly unless you have evidence to back that up.
I don’t agree with you that the timing is inappropriate or that it causes unacceptable risks for the family. The ultra-royalists who think Ampon got what he deserved already bitterly hate him and despise his family, and my publication of the SMS messages won’t change that. My story made clear that there is no proof the messages were sent by Ampon, and indeed the most common reaction I’ve heard from those who have now seen the SMS details is that they are now even more inclined to believe he was innocent – the SMS messages were long and complex and Ampon convincingly insisted he didn’t know how to send SMS messages at all.
Overall I believe that following Ampon’s death, it was important and useful for the full details of the case to be put in the public domain. It would no longer prejudice efforts to win his release (the key reason not to publish the SMS messages while he was alive), and it could potentially help others affected by this unjust law, now and in the future, by discouraging the authorities from ever again allowing such an egregious injustice to happen. That might at least bring something good from this heartbreaking episode.
I can’t tell you who gave me the document, but I can tell you how I got it. I just asked somebody, politely and with no pressure, on Tuesday evening. I explained that I thought making the SMS messages public would do some good, and said that I would like to publish them on my blog, but only of course if the source was comfortable with this. The source considered it carefully, consulted others, and decided to give me the information. The source is very happy with how the information was used. And while I truly admire the very admirable work you and your wife did for Ampon’s family, I believe the source is in an even better position than you to weigh up the ethical issues and risks involved.
I believe publishing the SMS messages was the right thing to do. The source thinks it was the right thing to do. I’m very glad I was able to do it, and I have been really moved and inspired by the reaction of many Thais to what I wrote. Journalism often involves ethical dilemmas, and there are no easy answers, but I genuinely did what I thought was best, and I stand by my decision.
Finally, I know the news of Ampon’s death would have been felt particularly deeply by you and your wife, given the support you’ve given to his family and the time you spent with Ampon himself. I’m sorry we disagree about my decision, it was not my intention to rile you at this time. And in spite of our differences, there is no doubting your commitment to and passion for Ampon’s cause. Full respect to you for that. I look forward to reading what you write about Ampon: given all the work you did on this case, you have unique knowledge and insights and I am sure it will be a great piece of journalism. Best wishes.
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Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco #65
Intriguing name! Blocking of my blog is patchy and varies depending on the ISP. I get most feedback from Facebook, and a very large number of Thais told me today the whole blog was blocked by ICT throughout today. Yesterday it generally wasn’t blocked. Tomorrow – who knows.
Most Thais have cottoned on that it is easy to get around ISP or ICT blocks just by using Google Translate. And I put most of my stuff on Facebook now because blocking Facebook would be a huge and risky step for the authorities.
I don’t think the authorities are monitoring who reads my blog, and indeed it is not a crime to read it. It is potentially a crime to share material from it, share links, or comment positively on it.
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@JG45
“The king does not make or rescind legislation. The politicians do. All he can do is speak out against it, which he did, and pardon those convicted.”
Sorry, this is very incorrect. The process of legislation in countries with Monarchy are as followed:
1) Parliament enacts the law
2) Parliament sends the law to the Monarch (in Thailand’s case, it is the King)
3) The Monarch reads the law, and they can either:
A: refuse to sign (in this case, the law will not become a law)
B: tell the Parliament to amend some provisions which the Monarch does not agree, then sign it (then it becomes the law, minus those ‘deleted’ or ‘amended’ provisions)
C: sign immediately (then it becomes the law immediately)
So in this case, if the King disagrees with the law, what he could have done is choose option 3A (refuse to sign), or choose option 3B (tell the Parliament that he will sign it, if they eradicate section 112: lese majeste out of the provision).
Surprisingly, he chose option C (sign immediately).
And you do not need any proof that he has chosen option C. The fact that the law is currently in force is the proof that he has signed it.
So the person who got the facts wrong is you, not me, unfortunately. And as you said yourself that the person who got the facts wrong is childish, so it seems that your words are now getting back to bite yourself.
Regards,
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@Andrew Marshall #72
“it is certainly valid to debate whether publishing the SMS messages was the right thing to do”
But you did it without the debate in the first place.
“it could potentially help others affected by this unjust law, now and in the future, by discouraging the authorities from ever again allowing such an egregious injustice to happen. ”
I don’t really see how the revelation of SMS would reach out positively to other victims of this draconian law. Presumably, the content was published with a “good heart”. But strategically it can be a failure. Authorities get discouraged or not depend on how the general public would react. I believe the majority of Thais would remain ignorant about these SMS because in no way will they ever be aired openly. Thus, the public will not bounce back with significant response, let alone to say discourage the authority to apply LM charges.
If the presumed effect is that the public grows sympathy to Ah Kong and presses the authority to drop the politicization of LM after reading the SMS, I guess for most Thais, the wording is way too intense for them to develop spontaneous sympathy towards Ah Kong.
Really, I don’t understand how you became motivated to publish it. But let’s say it’s a good heart with undesirable effects.
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The SMS messages have now been added to Ah Kong’s article on Wikipedia. I was anticipating they might appear on a few .go.th sites over the weekend but with the traction they’re getting so far, perhaps not.
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Bunny,
Part of the reason why these SMS messages would be shocking to many Thais (and I agree they would be), is that so few people have ever heard anything like them before. By publicizing them, it may not help Ah Gong, but it is likely to make criticism appear less shocking next time.
If similar messages were directed at President Obama, Chancellor Merkel, or even Queen Elizabeth, they would not have nearly the impact that they do in the current instance. That is because people have heard similar comments before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen_(Sex_Pistols_song)
Surely the royalists know this, which is why they are so brutal in their suppression of the tiniest negative comment. They are the ones who want to prevent people from know that criticism exists, so airing the comments now may have short term negative implications, but the long term result may be different.
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#73 Andrew
“Intriguing name! ”
You can call me ‘woof woof’….
“Yesterday it generally wasn’t blocked.”
It won’t have been blocked by the ministry or it would be blanket blocked with a notice. Some providers may be blocking it because they sometimes do that on their own account. Inconceivable that it was blocked and then unblocked at government level given what you have just published. I am able to access it through both True and CSloxinfo – 2 of the main providers… And indeed I have not found a wifi point or net cafe where the site is blocked in Bangkok….. I think that is really odd because other less high profile stuff with far less explosively damaging content to incredibly powerful parties is indeed blocked.
“I don’t think the authorities are monitoring who reads my blog, and indeed it is not a crime to read it. It is potentially a crime to share material from it, share links, or comment positively on it.”
I think you are probably right…. But who knows what is round the corner and what will happen next? It is an entirely unpredictable future….. And after all this law is about one thing only…. The fostering of fear to maintain control…. And to some extent it works…. And comes back to the appallingly cruel and capricious treatment of Ar Kong. What did the cable say? ‘Kill the chicken to scare the monkey’?
#72 “the SMS messages were long and complex and Ampon convincingly insisted he didn’t know how to send SMS messages at all.”
Heartless and calculated cruelty toward the powerless. Sickening.
Best wishes with your work on this one Andrew. It is an appalling injustice.
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> “today the whole blog was blocked by ICT”
https
To block https the authorities would have to block either at DNS level or IP address level and I don’t know of any instances of this being done in Thailand right now. I’m sure somebody can help you set it up. If you’re in a hurry you can mirror everything to *.wordpress.com – every blog under that domain is https capable.
BTW I doubt you’re being blocked by ICT – most probably, ISPs are simply electing to redirect requests to MICT.
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It is interesting how easily the government has been able to head off the LM charges that Jatuporn was facing, now that Thaksin can no longer afford to keep him out of the cabinet in the face of growing red shirt discontent with Puea Thai. Given the existence of the unjust law, Jatuporn’s comments would appear without much doubt to constitute a prima facie case to answer. At least it is extremely clear that he voluntarily made the comments himself with the intention that they should be broadcast widely around the country, whereas it was never proven beyond reasonable doubt that Ah Kong composed or sent the SMS messages that were apparently intended to be seen by only one person.
Jatuporn’s case illustrates what a wonderful political weapon Section 112 is. Thaksin who has personally filed LM charges, as well as outrageous criminal libel suits, against critics for political reasons is not going to give up this turbo taser that he can switch on or off with one click of his X box console to destroy or rescue political friends or foes.
It’s a shame about the red shirt rank and file rotting in prison for distributing anti-royalist leaflets written by the likes of the brave red leaders who are enjoying or about to enjoy getting their snouts in the cabinet trough. But there is never any gain without at least some inconsequential collateral damage.
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AMM
Thanks for your comment.
I agree with much you of what say on an intellectual level but as I said before I disagree 100% with the timing and don’t believe a fully informed consent was given by the family, despite any assurances you received from a third party. I am also not interested in you naming your source and haven’t suggested you do so.
My main point stands – that the safety and well-being of the family must come first and their consent must be directly sought with a chance for them to fully participate in a debate where the negatives and positives consequences of such publication and distribution are laid-out. Publishing these SMSs could, possibly, place them in greater danger and I’m sorry if this seems misinformed but I do wonder if that was fully considered by yourself before you rushed them out in the hours following Ah Kong’s death.
Right now as the family are in the first stages of grief, and as with any victims of injustice, this isn’t some “academic” or intellectual exercise where the limits of truth or liberty are discussed from the safe confines of online anonymity or from Singapore/London. It is a lived and terrible experience.
The powerful should be held to continual account – particular those who seek or hold any public office of any importance. Transparency and accountability go hand in hand with a participatory democracy and prevent cultures of impunity establishing themselves. If those who don’t hold power or who are victims of power’s excesses are subjected to the same transparency they should be involved, directly, in the decision-making process regarding any distribution/publication of material and particularly if further harm could possibly befall them as a result of distribution/publication.
You do some interesting and important work but for me, on this occasion, you got it wrong.
As for our contact with Ah Kong and family – please don’t over-egg that. I met him 3 times and his wife twice. My wife met them both several more times and has spoken to the family regular. We are not close family friends and don’t claim to be.
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Da Torpedo still remains behind bars, has previously been denied proper medical and her case represents, very clearly, not only the brutality of LM but also the failures of the international human rights’ NGOs, such as Amnesty, but also that of the international media in Bangkok in have done very little to research or expose her case.
Here’s something I wrote over a year ago on Da Torpedo http://bit.ly/hbn5cV
I also attempted to visit her in prison but was denied access. A researcher I was working with managed to get in and I quickly scribbled down some questions. From that came a short interview
http://bit.ly/nJdXYz
Let’s not forget Da Torpedo.
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Andrew Spooner #81
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then, not for the first time and probably not for the last. Just to stress again, my source was in a far better position than you to be informed on the points you raise.
Also discussion of who consented to what is potentially dangerous to the family and others. I don’t intend to talk about it further. Best regards.
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I hope there is a memorial service and the attendance is massive.
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AMM
“Just to stress again, my source was in a far better position than you to be informed on the points you raise.”
I’m sorry but I don’t see this as a competition.
“Also discussion of who consented to what is potentially dangerous to the family and others. I don’t intend to talk about it further.”
I wrote to you privately today, informing you of my misgivings and what we be doing in the next few days. I sent you that message before you posted your last comment here and also suggested in that message that a public discourse was no longer appropriate. You chose, instead, to respond in public to tell me you prefer privacy. I find that a bit odd.
And please, you don’t have to rationalise or explain why you did that.
To reiterate. On the basis of ethical considerations, publishing the SMSs within hours of Ah Kong’s death and while his closest family members were still in a state of shock was, in my opinion, inappropriate. I’ve laid out in my private correspondence to you exactly why, in our judgement, a properly informed consent was not possible to achieve.
As I commented earlier I agree with you entirely that the content of the SMSs needed to be published and distributed. The question then should be when is the most opportune moment to do so with careful consideration given to the consequences. It is my view that needed to be a collective decision involving the family.
In my opinion I think you moved too quickly and without much regard for others.
But that’s just my opinion.
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The two Andrews are now coming across like two dogs pissing on their respective door posts. Their consideration for Ah Kong and his family is taking a distant second place. And Spooner: You started it.
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Jon Wright #86
“The two Andrews are now coming across like two dogs pissing on their respective door posts. ”
We probably were, in previous incarnations.
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Don’t blame the law just because you don’t agree with it. He knew damn well and chose to break it. No need to bring up how and why and who did this to him.
If you love him so much then why don’t you just offer his family and any other people who don’t agree with lese majeste law the Australian citizenship ? So they could come here and enjoy the freedom in this country !
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I have just seen BP’s comments of surprise about the contents of the 4 SMS messages. I too was surprised with what I read, in particular by the Saudi jewels reference, of which I have seen no report in the media.
This makes me think somebody connected with this case may have sent the messages which it appears did not come from Ah Kong .
I have been wondering for months why nobody has admitted, even anonymously, to sending the messages which may have led to Ah Kong being better treated and even given bail.
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What a loser you’re Jesse !
Laws are made by people and these are there to serve for the benefit of people.
What you’re doing is just trying to attract more criticism for the royal family.
We became citizens of countries such as Thai, Burma, Lao or Cambodia just because of our unfortunate birth over there. I always wish to avoid a person like you who think he or she is righteous enough to control our lives and willing to make sure our lives are in misery.
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Jesse “He knew damn well and chose to break it. ”
It has not been proved that he broke it and sent those messages, it has only been proved that “he did not adequately prove his innocence” which is not the job of the defense. It is the job of the Prosecution to PROVE GUILT! which was not done, that is the injustice here!
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Ricky #89
Yes I too was struck by that reference to the Saudi jewels, the infamous blue diamond.
The mind map fiasco of 2010 also had the reference to the dinosaur wearing a blue diamond. Who produced the evidence in that case? Who was it meant to discredit?
Who produced the evidence in Ar Kong’s case? Who was it meant to discredit?
Spooky!
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Jesse, not wanting to spoil your rant, but: in this case, the judges stated: “… the prosecution could not clearly prove that the defendant was the person who sent the offensive text messages to the mobile phone of the Secretary to the then Prime Minister. But even so, because it is difficult for the prosecution to present compelling evidence, as the defendant who committed this offence would naturally conceal his actions so that others could not observe them, it is necessary to rely on circumstantial evidence which the prosecution presented to indicate the intentions of the defendant.” Usually, it would be the prosecutions job to prove guilt. Not for LM.
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Andrew, TOT is still blocking your zen… site by redirecting to mict. I have been having trouble connecting to anything since I clicked on the link above in this thread, keep getting the connection was reset by server, and unable to find… errors. Big brother is watching us and having a panic attack.
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#94 “Andrew, TOT is still blocking your zen”
Hi Ron… I am looking at it on a TOT connection as I write… Very odd. Intriguing to know who is doing the blocking and how.
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#95 ” I am looking at it on a TOT connection as I write”
Ooops… No I am not. Just been told it is a True connection…. Which means one company is blocking, but not the other by the looks of it..
Ron, are you getting this notice? “Sorry for any inconvenience.
The page you are trying to visit has been blocked by the Ministry of Information and Communication Technology.”
That’s what I am getting for TPP. If so then it seems like the providers are putting that up on their own account or the Ministry blocks are not being competently implemented.
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TOT and Loxinfo are probably the worst two re blocking of their own accord. If you can … change ISP. While MICT have relaxed considerably over the last couple of years, those two ISPs are still partying like it’s 2009.
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Ron Torrence #94 and Woof Woof #95/96
Many thanks for this. The information I get is that I am consistently blocked by some ISPs and not others, which is quite interesting.
It could suggest there is no central directive to block me but that some ISPs are doing it of their accord.
Or it could just suggest that it’s Thailand. Nothing else follows consistent rules, so why should the blocking of my blog?
It’s never really concerned me as it’s simply not really possible for the Thai authorities to properly block me or anyone in 2012. Thais who want to read blocked material can find ways to do so extremely easily – as I mentioned above, one common way is just to run the URL through Google Translate. Also, Facebook has become a key forum for discussion of the Thai monarchy, and it would be fascinating to see the fallout if Thailand blocked Facebook – it would dwarf the 2007 blocking of YouTube as an international news story, not to mention the complaints from all those Thais using Facebook.
My sense is that the immense blocking effort is just being done for the sake of being seen to do something. Everybody knows it’s pointless, but they have to put on a good show of trying. If they didn’t, they might be branded traitors like Akong.
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Orinoco Woof Woof Blanco, I love that name… I get connection was reset, connection was reset by server, and unable to find server, at different times, and mict is in the address bar, so I figure it is an isp divert. I get that a lot recently with a lot of websites, sometimes need to go to a proxy server
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If you’re talking about w3.mict.go.th then nobody can access that. The most likely error msg is a “server not responding” or “server taking too long to respond”. If you don’t want to waste time waiting for the redirect (and don’t want to lose whatever was in the address bar, which is a minor pain) then use Firefox and the NoRedirect add-on.
BTW there’s been an outbreak of ‘edit wars’ over at th.wikipedia.org – as it stands right now the sms messages are there again.
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@Laoguy #93
“The mind map fiasco of 2010 also had the reference to the dinosaur wearing a blue diamond. Who produced the evidence in that case? Who was it meant to discredit?”
I don’t really know about the nonsensical mind map 2010. Never really read it, because I know that it is going to be loads of BS. And the army did admit it last year that the mind map was BS.
Anyway, I will only address the issue of the Saudi jewel. There is really no concrete evidence where the Blue Diamond is. But the Saudi diplomats are confident that it is still in Thailand. Rumours and circumstantial evidences which followed the lost of Blue Diamond made many Thais believe that the Blue Diamond is now with Queen Sirikit.
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CT #101 Thanks for that. I just thought it was interesting that so much energy was put into harassing people named in the mind map and then eventually conceeding that it was just all made up BS but never actually putting any effort into tracking down who referred to Sirikit as a dinosaur. It just seems LM is ok if its convenient for one side of politics. Sirikit has been equated with the dinosaur so often now it is in danger of passing into common usage.
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Tyrannosaura Regina?
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@laoguy
“Sirikit has been equated with the dinosaur so often now it is in danger of passing into common usage.”
I disagree. She does not get called a ‘dinosaur’ that often. She is commonly referred to in Thailand as ‘E-Ouan’ (р╕нр╕╡р╕нр╣Йр╕зр╕Щ Fat B*tch), or ‘the Blue Whale’. Her chubbiness earns her the nickname ‘Whale’. I believe ‘Blue’ is the colour of the Royal. Every Thai in Thailand knows who you mean when you say the ‘Blue Whale’. I don’t think all the Thais would think about the Q if you refer to her as a dinosaur during the conversation.
@RN England
“Tyrannosaura Regina?”
Correct me if I am wrong, but ‘Regina’ is the first name of your Queen. So to say Tyrannosaura Regina means you think your Queen is a dinosaur. The name ‘Regina’ is exclusive to Elizabeth only. it does not extend to other Queens.
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CT (104). ‘Regina’ is Latin for ‘queen’, any queen, just as ‘rex’ is Latin for any King. I changed ‘Tyrannosaurus Rex’ into a Latin feminine form, which is only a lame joke and not really legitimate because ‘Tyrannosaurus Rex’ is the name of a species. A species, of course, includes both males and females.
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@RN England
“‘Regina’ is Latin for ‘queen’, any queen, just as ‘rex’ is Latin for any King.”
Thanks for your clarification. Unbelievable. I always understood that Regina is somewhat the first name of Queen Elizabeth for ages (lucky I never told anyone about my misunderstanding or I would likely to have made a fool out of myself).
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