A good article. As a country / city with low automobile ownership, the authorities are in a perfect position to develop a modern low cost public transport system, such as bus rapid transit (BRT). Sadly, they appear to be emphasizing personal vehicle ownership instead.
the summary in this piece is taken from “others” (Thaksin, Jatuporn, Thida–) not mine. we have to try and move beyond feelings of the kind expressed by SD#3. Thaksin made mistakes, Thaksin is not perfect. Some like him/adore him, some certainly do not. But one thing is important: he remains a powerful leadship figure for many among the red shirt masses so we cannot discount him. Of course Sombat [SamDeedes link], along with many new Thai liberals and 1970s intellectuals, who we don’t need to name, never thought much of Thaksin the man, even they may have liked many of his policies. As for the conclusion for unification: it is made by various red shirt factions.
As far as I’ve gathered, Puea Thai’s political strategy isn’t so much “reconciliation” as an incremental “reset” to the pre-2006 days.
I doubt that they will succeed in pushing this bill through in the near future, but I also doubt they intend to- the aim of the game here, just as it was with the 2010 Red Shirt rallies (it was stated as much in their pre-“million man march” press conference at the FCCT) is to put the Thai establishment into a position where it has to back down or reveal its authoritarian face to the world.
PT can afford to play the long game here because time is clearly on their side.
As a side note, Thaksin should probably be thankful his money has been kept nice and safe from the Global Financial Crisis in the public piggy bank- who knows how much he would have lost if he had it all to spend!
Thailand’s – law for the rich/ law for the poor -has to be challenged.The time has come to challenge the corrupt courts and judges.The injustices just can not continue.Think back and realise change must come.
So the stage is crowded but yet again as the puppets come to the fore, the strings of their masters jerking them hither and fro, a cause united, a purpose elusive, they rally forth with the righteous fervor of ignorant bliss.
Does it mean you have moved beyond jaded cynicism when the travails of all politics appears simply a sublime ecstasy of ongoing self gratification and holds little more than the allure of a rerun of Gilligan’s Island? As to Thai politics to quote former Australian band Matt Finish “it just goes on and on like coast roads and bad TV”.
With the best will in the world I cannot help seeing this post as a bit of wishful thinking on Jim Taylor’s part.
Anyone can highlight aspects of Thaksin’s speech to suit their own agenda. Here are a couple that show his self absorption and manipulative use of his family.
One would think that having a female PM who does not want to argue with anyone would create the conditions for peace in the country.
In fact I lost money in politics. This money was taken from me. It is my family’s money that has been taken illegally from me.
Do all thinking red shirts trust him any more? Is he everything to all red shirts? If he ever was then the perceptive comments of Sombat Boonngamanong give the lie to his continuing hegemony.
Wondering whether you see any direct opposition to this ‘Lightening rod’ group forming?
Have there been analogies made between the Buddhist sense of rebirth, and rebirth in Thai political machinations? Where’s the nirvana of Thai politics?
Kachin did fall for the devious mechinations of that snake you mentioned with some of the leaders getting rich and a lot of the nature razed. Still being razed of course.
But currently the issue of flooding their heartland and putting pipes across their ancestral land is such hurtful thing for a nation, even if the KIA leadership wants to do business deal like the KNU now, the public are not likely to give up killing or dying for the protection of their land with or without any help by any body.
The “others” either simply fall for easy business deals or their leaders somehow compromised par the specialty of this devious Bamar Sit-tut.
Please bear in mind that none of the armed groups are democratic and some do not care about the people they are supposed to represent.
Wa are simply drug dealers. BCP died of refusal to deal drug.
The Kachin environmental network in recent Irrawaddy article even specifically mentioned KNU for their awaiting future devastation which is likely to be even worse as this times round not just the environment and nature but the most precious resource, the human, are also going to be used/ abused/ squeezed of life/ demoralized and de- spiritualized in these low wage work forces with incessant bombardment of cheap consumer products permanently trapping their lives which will be dictated by the multinational businessmen who can at an instant drop them and move out to Brazil with no qualms. Look Detroit.
The Burmese are fighting Kachin because of Chinese money already and when there are more money from more nations, more peope will be fought upon including Burman themselves. Happens in Camboda, happens in Malaysia, Thailand.
The racial issue is real. But still the underlying tension is due to social and financial difficulties and of course the worst, lack of hope, lack of the sight of the end of suffering, in short not having faith in the direction the country is going.
Did you hear any one imprisoned in Mae la camp say they want to come back even when the Norwagians are trying to gang-press them Directly and indirectly with Aung San Suu Kyi’s knowledge at least if not urging?
Brilliant. The glitter they seek is like what they put on our pagodas – ‘disco gold’ as people call it, Kaung Hmudaw paya at Sagaing being only the latest example of this particular Midas touch.
Attempting a wi without a wa is an expression that comes to mind. Would they build the proverbial sand pagoda, that infamous trick to beat the Shan in the pagoda construction contest in our history?
All they are interested in is touting for more business for themselves and their own class, and the rest is an elaborate and convincing (certainly not a bit to some of us who do not indulge in wishful thinking) window dressing simply to serve this agenda. Even that ambitious ladder has all the bottom rungs missing. Brilliant.
Nice to see yet another NM thread turned into an “OWWB/Greg Lowe tag-teaming Andrew Spooner” extravaganza. Soon NM will have reached the heights of the local webboards with anyone not toeing the anti-Thaksin/PT/UDD line getting gang-banged in the name of reasoned objectivity and a manly grip on reality.
I did a quick survey of news items coming up on Google using the search term “Thaksin” the other day. 6 out of 7 included the adjective “divisive” on first mention of his name; one used “controversial”. All referred to him as “exiled” rather than “fleeing political persecution” or even “self-exiled”. 6 out of 7 referred to his conviction on criminal charges. 4 added a little thumbnail sketch of his human rights abuses and/or corruption.
The same search, because all the items were about the kerfuffle in and at Government House, brought up mention of PAD, usually expanded to the full “People’s Alliance for Democracy”. 4 out of 7 mentioned their role in precipitating the coup that unseated Thaksin. 2 mentioned the occupations of Government House and the airports.
Trying to put myself in the place of a relatively uninformed (re: recent Thai history) reader, I found myself reading about an exiled convicted criminal whose corruption and human rights abuses had led to a coup brought on by the protests of a pro-democracy group. And now, because this exiled criminal abuser has managed to have a nepotistic government installed in his homeland, moves are afoot to have him brought home free of all charges. But the People’s Alliance for Democracy and the Democrat Party are having none of it. Yay forces for Democracy! Boo nepotistic criminal manipulator!
Andrew is spot on in his pointing out the distorting effects of the deliberate omission of clarifying adjectives and little thumbnail sketches of how incredibly meaningless the word “Democracy” is in association with either the PAD or the Dems. If there is room for the Thaksin mini-bio then there is room for one for PAD and the Dems. Please note that I have no problem with their characterizations of Thaksin.
And Andrrew, I strongly urge you to take the advice being offered in the name of balanced objectivity and start focusing on critiques of the PT administration in your articles.
Because God knows we just don’t get enough of those.
I would also like to point out that those like Greg, with their complex, nuanced views of Thai politics, which lead them to support neither side, do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and type criticizing PT, the UDD, Thaksin, and people who accept the complexity, imperfection and all-round perfidiousness of Thai politics yet manage to come out with a clear preference for the “side” that they have determined is, however marginally, more likely to promote democratization in this country.
“The next MP that came was Chuvit Kamolvisit, former massage parlor tycoon, was cheered on by the protesters.”
That’s fascinating, as Chuwit has been a thorn in the side of both Democrat and PT administrations. I suppose with PT in power, any anti-establishment terrier will do as a temporary ally…
“The new protest group is named “Sai Loh Fah” – the lightening rod. The Democrat Party has now made the transition into directly commanding their own street protest group.”
Agree that this is the biggest news of the weekend. Maybe this is good, in a weird way? Just as with PT/Thaksin experiencing a fallout with the UDD, might the Dems splitting more cleanly from the PAD allow just a tiny bit of complexity into the discussion, away from the reductionist Red/Yellow split that lazy journos and forum posters rely on?
“A terrified female uniformed palace official on her way to work was frozen with panic, and carefully led aside by protesters.”
Nothing quite as shocking as when the version of reality you’re selling contradicts the one you’re seeing.
“Also, no part of Burma will appear on the other side of the Mekong.”
If you go to Mae Salong, there’s a viewing area by the temple that points roughly in the direction Chiang Saen and Sop Ruak/Golden Triangle where Burma/Laos/Thailand all meet on the banks of the Mekong.
“You know they could have been saying Mae Kok”
It would be impossible to see the Mae Kok from the temple viewing point as it is on the opposite side of the hill on which the temple sits just below the top of.
Apropos, does anyone have information about a confrontation on Doi Lang (near Mae Ai) involving the Burmese army, the KMT and the Thai army? This would be in the late 1940s. One result was sanctuary for the KMT in Chiang Rai province, and the other is Doi Lang becoming part of Thai territory.
I may have details wrong because I heard these tales from the children of participants.
The next few days for Thailand could be critical vis a vis the constitutional court. If parliament does actually face down the court there are few options left for the amaart. The feeling that a judicial coup is rolling out seem palpable. But will they back it up with force if parliament ignore the court? And how would that use of force play out?
There are rumours that Yingluck could be arrested by the Army. That if a coup does occur then “democracy” will be “suspended” for quite a considerable amount of time. That this time any rebellion will be “crushed”.
I’ve always felt that Abhisit staying in situ as Dem Party leader was odd given what a failure he’s been. I guess they know that here’s someone who will get the job done, however brutal. Has he been promised his old job?
What seems pretty clear is that the court has not followed procedure. The speed at which it took the PAD/Dems petition was obviously co-ordinated with the Dems violence in parliament and the PAD attack. And who can forget the tapes of the judges pointing to corruption and gross malfeasance?
PTP are likely to be dissolved (as signs coming in/Jatuporn was removed for a starters) that is why amendments of constitution and amnesty bill must come in fast because many folk are still in jail. It is not (simply) about Thaksin who may now be wiser to the facts. Also, there are four versions of the amnesty bill circulating, not just one. UDD favoured Nitirat’s amendments would likely be a version accepted by PTP. Nitirat stated clearly that the Constitutional Court has already overstepped its “constituted powers”. The rush noted in the article by Nich had a (reasoned) sense of urgency given that the Constitutional Court has already started a coup…
In the past, Nick’s reports have been translated into Thai (and other languages), but this usually happens on a pretty ad hoc basis. Here at New Mandala HQ we don’t always even know that it is happening.
But if somebody out there would like to translate this report and wants to get in touch then you can find me at the usual place. We can certainly link to any translations that emerge.
The Reconciliation bill shouldn’t have been put up in the first place as none of the content makes any sense, and reading the brief contents of the other 3 by PTP and the Reds, the only difference is they don’t want the PAD hooligans and the Demorat pigs to be set free. So what “Reconciliation” is there. What they should have done is drop all the bills and concentrate on the Charter amendment, by that the reds have every means to support it and wouldn’t be in the middle no where trying to figure out what to go for as the Reconciliation Bills were not agreeable by them as well. Many was forced to support the bill is just because is a Govt they have chosen and they can’t afford to turn against it allowing the Dem pigs to move in.
Now that its been dropped for the time being, I hope they will altogether trash it in the dust bin and concentrate on the fight of “Charter Amendment” which is more meaningful with a strong stand as none have the right to block it as the majority of Thais have the last word of accepting the changes or not. It’s the people’s constitution and not any individual groups, political parties or judges decision.
Last of all, I must say, no one should need to follow any media in this country except Nick if one wants a true detailed report on any event… 🙂 The two mainstream English media is a total joke and disgrace to the media industry. BTW Nick, why don’t you get a translator to do a translation on your reports so the Thais can read it as well….just a wild suggestion 🙂
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Getting real about Myanmar’s development
A good article. As a country / city with low automobile ownership, the authorities are in a perfect position to develop a modern low cost public transport system, such as bus rapid transit (BRT). Sadly, they appear to be emphasizing personal vehicle ownership instead.
Thaksin, reform and political crisis
the summary in this piece is taken from “others” (Thaksin, Jatuporn, Thida–) not mine. we have to try and move beyond feelings of the kind expressed by SD#3. Thaksin made mistakes, Thaksin is not perfect. Some like him/adore him, some certainly do not. But one thing is important: he remains a powerful leadship figure for many among the red shirt masses so we cannot discount him. Of course Sombat [SamDeedes link], along with many new Thai liberals and 1970s intellectuals, who we don’t need to name, never thought much of Thaksin the man, even they may have liked many of his policies. As for the conclusion for unification: it is made by various red shirt factions.
Reconciliation games
Thanks Nick for the insight.
As far as I’ve gathered, Puea Thai’s political strategy isn’t so much “reconciliation” as an incremental “reset” to the pre-2006 days.
I doubt that they will succeed in pushing this bill through in the near future, but I also doubt they intend to- the aim of the game here, just as it was with the 2010 Red Shirt rallies (it was stated as much in their pre-“million man march” press conference at the FCCT) is to put the Thai establishment into a position where it has to back down or reveal its authoritarian face to the world.
PT can afford to play the long game here because time is clearly on their side.
As a side note, Thaksin should probably be thankful his money has been kept nice and safe from the Global Financial Crisis in the public piggy bank- who knows how much he would have lost if he had it all to spend!
Thaksin, reform and political crisis
Thailand’s – law for the rich/ law for the poor -has to be challenged.The time has come to challenge the corrupt courts and judges.The injustices just can not continue.Think back and realise change must come.
Reconciliation games
So the stage is crowded but yet again as the puppets come to the fore, the strings of their masters jerking them hither and fro, a cause united, a purpose elusive, they rally forth with the righteous fervor of ignorant bliss.
Does it mean you have moved beyond jaded cynicism when the travails of all politics appears simply a sublime ecstasy of ongoing self gratification and holds little more than the allure of a rerun of Gilligan’s Island? As to Thai politics to quote former Australian band Matt Finish “it just goes on and on like coast roads and bad TV”.
Thaksin, reform and political crisis
With the best will in the world I cannot help seeing this post as a bit of wishful thinking on Jim Taylor’s part.
Anyone can highlight aspects of Thaksin’s speech to suit their own agenda. Here are a couple that show his self absorption and manipulative use of his family.
One would think that having a female PM who does not want to argue with anyone would create the conditions for peace in the country.
In fact I lost money in politics. This money was taken from me. It is my family’s money that has been taken illegally from me.
Do all thinking red shirts trust him any more? Is he everything to all red shirts? If he ever was then the perceptive comments of Sombat Boonngamanong give the lie to his continuing hegemony.
Reconciliation games
Thanks Nick, excellent as usual.
Wondering whether you see any direct opposition to this ‘Lightening rod’ group forming?
Have there been analogies made between the Buddhist sense of rebirth, and rebirth in Thai political machinations? Where’s the nirvana of Thai politics?
Thant Myint-U on Yangon
Thanks Plan B.
Kachin did fall for the devious mechinations of that snake you mentioned with some of the leaders getting rich and a lot of the nature razed. Still being razed of course.
But currently the issue of flooding their heartland and putting pipes across their ancestral land is such hurtful thing for a nation, even if the KIA leadership wants to do business deal like the KNU now, the public are not likely to give up killing or dying for the protection of their land with or without any help by any body.
The “others” either simply fall for easy business deals or their leaders somehow compromised par the specialty of this devious Bamar Sit-tut.
Please bear in mind that none of the armed groups are democratic and some do not care about the people they are supposed to represent.
Wa are simply drug dealers. BCP died of refusal to deal drug.
The Kachin environmental network in recent Irrawaddy article even specifically mentioned KNU for their awaiting future devastation which is likely to be even worse as this times round not just the environment and nature but the most precious resource, the human, are also going to be used/ abused/ squeezed of life/ demoralized and de- spiritualized in these low wage work forces with incessant bombardment of cheap consumer products permanently trapping their lives which will be dictated by the multinational businessmen who can at an instant drop them and move out to Brazil with no qualms. Look Detroit.
The Burmese are fighting Kachin because of Chinese money already and when there are more money from more nations, more peope will be fought upon including Burman themselves. Happens in Camboda, happens in Malaysia, Thailand.
The racial issue is real. But still the underlying tension is due to social and financial difficulties and of course the worst, lack of hope, lack of the sight of the end of suffering, in short not having faith in the direction the country is going.
Did you hear any one imprisoned in Mae la camp say they want to come back even when the Norwagians are trying to gang-press them Directly and indirectly with Aung San Suu Kyi’s knowledge at least if not urging?
Getting real about Myanmar’s development
Brilliant. The glitter they seek is like what they put on our pagodas – ‘disco gold’ as people call it, Kaung Hmudaw paya at Sagaing being only the latest example of this particular Midas touch.
Attempting a wi without a wa is an expression that comes to mind. Would they build the proverbial sand pagoda, that infamous trick to beat the Shan in the pagoda construction contest in our history?
All they are interested in is touting for more business for themselves and their own class, and the rest is an elaborate and convincing (certainly not a bit to some of us who do not indulge in wishful thinking) window dressing simply to serve this agenda. Even that ambitious ladder has all the bottom rungs missing. Brilliant.
Reconciliation games
Thanks Nick.
The end, the beginning
Nice to see yet another NM thread turned into an “OWWB/Greg Lowe tag-teaming Andrew Spooner” extravaganza. Soon NM will have reached the heights of the local webboards with anyone not toeing the anti-Thaksin/PT/UDD line getting gang-banged in the name of reasoned objectivity and a manly grip on reality.
I did a quick survey of news items coming up on Google using the search term “Thaksin” the other day. 6 out of 7 included the adjective “divisive” on first mention of his name; one used “controversial”. All referred to him as “exiled” rather than “fleeing political persecution” or even “self-exiled”. 6 out of 7 referred to his conviction on criminal charges. 4 added a little thumbnail sketch of his human rights abuses and/or corruption.
The same search, because all the items were about the kerfuffle in and at Government House, brought up mention of PAD, usually expanded to the full “People’s Alliance for Democracy”. 4 out of 7 mentioned their role in precipitating the coup that unseated Thaksin. 2 mentioned the occupations of Government House and the airports.
Trying to put myself in the place of a relatively uninformed (re: recent Thai history) reader, I found myself reading about an exiled convicted criminal whose corruption and human rights abuses had led to a coup brought on by the protests of a pro-democracy group. And now, because this exiled criminal abuser has managed to have a nepotistic government installed in his homeland, moves are afoot to have him brought home free of all charges. But the People’s Alliance for Democracy and the Democrat Party are having none of it. Yay forces for Democracy! Boo nepotistic criminal manipulator!
Andrew is spot on in his pointing out the distorting effects of the deliberate omission of clarifying adjectives and little thumbnail sketches of how incredibly meaningless the word “Democracy” is in association with either the PAD or the Dems. If there is room for the Thaksin mini-bio then there is room for one for PAD and the Dems. Please note that I have no problem with their characterizations of Thaksin.
And Andrrew, I strongly urge you to take the advice being offered in the name of balanced objectivity and start focusing on critiques of the PT administration in your articles.
Because God knows we just don’t get enough of those.
I would also like to point out that those like Greg, with their complex, nuanced views of Thai politics, which lead them to support neither side, do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and type criticizing PT, the UDD, Thaksin, and people who accept the complexity, imperfection and all-round perfidiousness of Thai politics yet manage to come out with a clear preference for the “side” that they have determined is, however marginally, more likely to promote democratization in this country.
Strange, that.
Reconciliation games
Thanks for the thorough ground report as always.
“The next MP that came was Chuvit Kamolvisit, former massage parlor tycoon, was cheered on by the protesters.”
That’s fascinating, as Chuwit has been a thorn in the side of both Democrat and PT administrations. I suppose with PT in power, any anti-establishment terrier will do as a temporary ally…
“The new protest group is named “Sai Loh Fah” – the lightening rod. The Democrat Party has now made the transition into directly commanding their own street protest group.”
Agree that this is the biggest news of the weekend. Maybe this is good, in a weird way? Just as with PT/Thaksin experiencing a fallout with the UDD, might the Dems splitting more cleanly from the PAD allow just a tiny bit of complexity into the discussion, away from the reductionist Red/Yellow split that lazy journos and forum posters rely on?
“A terrified female uniformed palace official on her way to work was frozen with panic, and carefully led aside by protesters.”
Nothing quite as shocking as when the version of reality you’re selling contradicts the one you’re seeing.
Kuomintang in northern Thailand
> “Burma/Laos/Thailand all meet on the banks of the Mekong”
Burma & Thailand on this side, Laos on the other side.
> “It would be impossible to see the Mae Kok”
I imagined so – but you know the yarns they spin …
I’ve definitely been there, last time I stayed next to the place you wrote about, at the Shinsane.
Kuomintang in northern Thailand
Jon Wright
“Also, no part of Burma will appear on the other side of the Mekong.”
If you go to Mae Salong, there’s a viewing area by the temple that points roughly in the direction Chiang Saen and Sop Ruak/Golden Triangle where Burma/Laos/Thailand all meet on the banks of the Mekong.
“You know they could have been saying Mae Kok”
It would be impossible to see the Mae Kok from the temple viewing point as it is on the opposite side of the hill on which the temple sits just below the top of.
But you’d know that if you’d been there.
Kuomintang in northern Thailand
Apropos, does anyone have information about a confrontation on Doi Lang (near Mae Ai) involving the Burmese army, the KMT and the Thai army? This would be in the late 1940s. One result was sanctuary for the KMT in Chiang Rai province, and the other is Doi Lang becoming part of Thai territory.
I may have details wrong because I heard these tales from the children of participants.
The end, the beginning
Ralph, #68
Quite.
Back to the original thread –
The next few days for Thailand could be critical vis a vis the constitutional court. If parliament does actually face down the court there are few options left for the amaart. The feeling that a judicial coup is rolling out seem palpable. But will they back it up with force if parliament ignore the court? And how would that use of force play out?
There are rumours that Yingluck could be arrested by the Army. That if a coup does occur then “democracy” will be “suspended” for quite a considerable amount of time. That this time any rebellion will be “crushed”.
I’ve always felt that Abhisit staying in situ as Dem Party leader was odd given what a failure he’s been. I guess they know that here’s someone who will get the job done, however brutal. Has he been promised his old job?
What seems pretty clear is that the court has not followed procedure. The speed at which it took the PAD/Dems petition was obviously co-ordinated with the Dems violence in parliament and the PAD attack. And who can forget the tapes of the judges pointing to corruption and gross malfeasance?
But if the court does back down, what then?
Reconciliation games
PTP are likely to be dissolved (as signs coming in/Jatuporn was removed for a starters) that is why amendments of constitution and amnesty bill must come in fast because many folk are still in jail. It is not (simply) about Thaksin who may now be wiser to the facts. Also, there are four versions of the amnesty bill circulating, not just one. UDD favoured Nitirat’s amendments would likely be a version accepted by PTP. Nitirat stated clearly that the Constitutional Court has already overstepped its “constituted powers”. The rush noted in the article by Nich had a (reasoned) sense of urgency given that the Constitutional Court has already started a coup…
Reconciliation games
Nick,
thanks for the post, as great as usual.
Reconciliation games
Thanks Lalida,
In the past, Nick’s reports have been translated into Thai (and other languages), but this usually happens on a pretty ad hoc basis. Here at New Mandala HQ we don’t always even know that it is happening.
But if somebody out there would like to translate this report and wants to get in touch then you can find me at the usual place. We can certainly link to any translations that emerge.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Reconciliation games
The Reconciliation bill shouldn’t have been put up in the first place as none of the content makes any sense, and reading the brief contents of the other 3 by PTP and the Reds, the only difference is they don’t want the PAD hooligans and the Demorat pigs to be set free. So what “Reconciliation” is there. What they should have done is drop all the bills and concentrate on the Charter amendment, by that the reds have every means to support it and wouldn’t be in the middle no where trying to figure out what to go for as the Reconciliation Bills were not agreeable by them as well. Many was forced to support the bill is just because is a Govt they have chosen and they can’t afford to turn against it allowing the Dem pigs to move in.
Now that its been dropped for the time being, I hope they will altogether trash it in the dust bin and concentrate on the fight of “Charter Amendment” which is more meaningful with a strong stand as none have the right to block it as the majority of Thais have the last word of accepting the changes or not. It’s the people’s constitution and not any individual groups, political parties or judges decision.
Last of all, I must say, no one should need to follow any media in this country except Nick if one wants a true detailed report on any event… 🙂 The two mainstream English media is a total joke and disgrace to the media industry. BTW Nick, why don’t you get a translator to do a translation on your reports so the Thais can read it as well….just a wild suggestion 🙂