In your last few comments you have asked me several quite disparate and complex questions that require, in my view, quite lengthy and detailed responses. You’ve also levelled a couple of quite nasty allegations at me that I consider to border on smears. No matter, I’m happy to take it on the chin.
What I will say in response is that I’m happy to be interviewed by you should you think my thoughts on those issues are of such importance to you and so that I am allowed a fair and equitable opportunity to rebut what I consider your false and malicious insinuations.
You can email me at [email protected] with suggestions how you want to conduct the interview. Face to face at a neutral venue is always my preference. And, of course, as is the usual practice. I’d like to know where you’d seek to publish this interview beforehand (I have noticed you have a blog – but it seems moribund, with little published there for a year or so – happy for it to any interview to be published there).
That offer also stands for your good friend Dan White should he wish to interview me on a separate occasion.
Unfortunately, here, on this thread, I won’t be responding to/rebutting any more of your smears, allegations, insinuations or questions as I don’t feel, given your repetitive tone it makes much sense to do so.
I do look forward to your correspondence and to meeting the challenge of your questions in the future.
Vichai, I think they’d prefer it if foreign representatives’ English is worse than the rest of the audience, so no chance of humiliation. Especially with benign ANU drunkards with remarkable ability to forget and deny blurred events present. Obviously lots of people to offend at this dinner. Was there any music played at the event, or was that too taboo for Ian Young? Can’t see the rest of the video, so that’ll have to do. Clearly I was needed to give a speech to unite everyone in hatred of something other than themselves.
Chris L makes a useful link to Bangkok Pundit who saw the issue. HRW has since inflated the figure they use.
The most interesting account I have seen is by Michael Connors (http://www6.cityu.edu.hk/searc/Data/FileUpload/296/WP102_09_MConnors.pdf). He actually examines the data from the 2008 interim report by the committee appointed to investigate and which has become the HRW source. It stated that there “were 2559 cases totaling 2873 deaths (2559 cases) from February to April” 2003. HRW now regularly cites something like the 2800 figure. Connors adds that: “drug related cases accounted for 1187 totaling 1370 murders. In 29 cases suspects had been arrested, while 47 suspects were at large. Of the remaining 1111 cases, no perpetrators had been identified.”
It is telling that HRW and others cite the 2800 figure rather than the 1370 figure.
It seems they continue to make the mistake they made earlier and that was the subject of the BP report.
There’s a dichotomy here. The police that let the RedShirt leader escape from the hotel room in Bangkok during the 2010 troubles were ‘under Thaksin’ and the majority of observers were thinking the police were walking very short that day.
“the Royal Thai Police are known to be very loyal to Thaksin.”
This is certainly true. In the south near Trang I know one police officer from a fiercely Democrat (verging on PAD supporting) family who supports PT and voted PT to the horror of his relatives. His reasoning being that ‘Under Thaksin the police walked tall’…. Interpret that how you will. Many of his colleagues in the same area are of of the same thinking according to him. In most parts of the country the ordinary cops tend to be vehemently pro-Thaksin and indeed they are often happy to initiate conversations about the highly regarded Lt Pl Colonel. The site of Arisaman Pongruangrong dangling from a rope as the police ‘bungled’ a fairly straightforward arrest was a fairly clear indication of where the loyalty of those particular arresting police officers’ loyalties lay…. And as with so many things here it comes down, largely, to an issue of patronage.
I think ambiga is critised/attacked not so much of her racial background but more of her gender. When I made a press statement saying that smaller political parties should be given a chance to contest in the forthcoming election, misconstrued by malaysiakini that prm wanted to contest in 3cornered fight, the cyber bloggers attacked me, less on my statements but more on my appearance, attire and age. They said that as a leader, how come I do not cover my head and wear the proper hijab. I am old and should just go back to die. Also I must be from an ulu kampong. So my attire, appearance and age was the main attack because I am a woman of Malay origin too. Mind you I was attacked by over 100 bloggers.
“Is the Thai army under the government, the palace, or does it act independently? Whatever it is, accountability should be held accordingly.”
Probably a mix of all three, depending on what day it is…
Do remember though that during the War on Drugs the vast majority of extra-judicial killings were carried out by police and the PM of the day was an ex-police officer, his ex-brother-in-law is the current chief of police, the Royal Thai Police are known to be very loyal to Thaksin.
In Western democracies, the army is under the control of a civilian government. That makes the chain of responsibility and accountability clear.
I’m not sure if that is the case in Thailand. Is the Thai army under the government, the palace, or does it act independently? Whatever it is, accountability should be held accordingly.
Ralph #76. For six decades the power elite in Thailand has done all it can to cover-up the trail of extra-judicial political killing it oversees with impunity, and it must be understood that the figure of 11 000 is probably less than half, or even only one third, of the actual level of sacrifice.
Would seem that Thailand’s “power elite” has been a bit lax in killing off their opponents when compared to the “power elite” of their neighbors to the East and North. I seem to remember those “power elite” were supposed to be about a “struggle for democratic representation” and look how that turned out.
Andrew was the one who asked is PT should be praised for Jiew’s “lenient” sentence. Lenience implies guilt, which I though a very odd position for a such as steadfast proponent of democracy and free speech as Andrew to take. That’s why I asked him the question. If you think that in Thailand the government/PM has or should have no influence over court verdicts and LM perhaps you would like to ask Andrew why he goes on about it all the time regarding Abhisit “the butcher of Bangkok” and the Democrats.
Andrew did mention how Shawn Crispin was kicked out of Thailand. This was along with Rodney Tasker from FEER. Shawn has repeatedly stated in public that Thaksin was the one behind that move.
“Even when a PM is responsible for human right violations, it can be because of pressure from forces that are difficult to resist.”
Hmm. Not convinced by that one. Especially in this case where Thaksin clearly positioned himself as the architect of the policy and described the police battling with drug dealers as “white knights”.
If a member of the Privy Council called Abhisit and called for 9,000 red shirts to be shot dead at Ratchaprasong on May 19, and Abhisit managed to whittle the number down to 90, would you consider that to be acceptable?
As far as I am aware, only four Thai officials have been found guilty of offences related to some form of human right abuses. Those were Somchai Wongsawat, Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, Pol Gen Patcharawat Wongsuwon and Pol Lt-Gen Suchart Muankaew. This was over the Oct 7 2008 crackdown on PAD prosesters outside of parliament.
The offences were for malfeasance etc. Were these men guilty, perhaps. Were the charges politically motivated? 100%. But the fact that in the course of Thai history no senior officials, top brass etc have been found guilty of any of the horrendous and extensive human rights abuses is a telling story. The rich and power operate with impunity. They are literally above or beyond the law.
Things will not improve until people are prosecuted. Such a list should include the PAD and UDD leaders who organised and instigated violence, Thaksin, the coup makers, any of the Democrat government, army/police top brass who were complicit in the indiscriminate killing of unarmed civillians, those involves in Tak Bai, Khrue Sai, the treatment of Rohingyas, and ongoing counter-insurgency operations in the South. We can add to that those involved in the 73, 76, 92 massacres, the red barrel and the anti-communist/-separatist death squads and, of course, the War on Drugs.
So to return to you initial point. No. The PM must be held accountable, especially for policies which are directly/indirectly result in mass killings.
What does the government have to do with court outcomes? Are you suggesting that the PM or the parliament have the power to determine or influence the outcome of LM trials? I’m confused.
“Pleased Jiew’s sentence was lenient however my real concerns still lie with Surachai & Da Torpedo who are ignored by media and HR NGOs.”
“If the Pheu Thai government have been blamed for the harsh sentences handed down to Ah Kong and others should they now be applauded for the leniency shown to Jiew?”
AP reported, “The case was seen as a test of freedom of expression in Thailand. She was the first webmaster prosecuted under tough cyber laws enacted after a 2006 coup.”
HRW called the prosecution of the first webmaster under the Computer Crimes Act a “chilling message to webmasters and Internet companies.”
So do you see this prosecution as lenient? Were you not rooting for a “not guilty” verdict?
“There are something other details about the South and the War on Drugs I’d love to write about but due to reporting restrictions I am unable to do so.”
That’s interesting Andrew, but would you mind answering the questions?
1. Thaksin is the de facto leader and key financier of the PTP who you continually try to paint in a favourable light. Where do the brutal actions of his administration fit within your dual state theory?
Given the Shinawattra/Damapong clans’ both have/have had family members as senior military and police top brass (not to mention all the military men who joined PT in 2009/10), and that in any given dual state the military and police (often in conjunction with paramilitary groups etc) form the sharp end of the state which metes out violence on, and represses, sectors of the civilian population, can governments run by these families be anything other than active agents of the repressive state apparatus?
2. In any wider analysis of the dual state will you take into account the treatment of the ethnic Malays in the south? Do they count as political prisoners? Will you ask them how they have been treated under successive governments?
3. You say AI/HRW have been a complete failure in Thailand. So, for the sake of argument, say they have been a failure over the last two years (your argument not mine), has all of their other work been a failure. Again looking to the South, AI/HRW along with ICJ, JPF and other NGOs tracked down all the illegal detention and torture sites in the south (I think found 100 give or take a few) and brought to light the enforced disappearances, extra-judicial killings, torture, summary arrests. They dealt with issues such as Tak Bai, Khrue Sai, the Rohingya, the War on Drugs, they condemned violence from the police, military, and both red- and yellow-short protesters over the past few years. Has all of that been a failure?
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
A tale of two Prime Ministers
Excellent observation Andrew, re. Andrew Robb. Congratulations.
Human rights and lese majeste
A certain member of the Privy Council should to be factored into any discussion of the dual state.
He has had a bit to say on both the ‘war on drugs’ (see http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/prem-and-the-war-on-drugs/ )
and the ‘southern insurgency’ (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency#National_Reconciliation_Commission )
Video on PM Yingluck’s Australia visit
Vichai
In all honesty the Thai electorate don’t seem to give a single thought to Yingluck’s English.
That’s the only constituency she needs to answer to.
Human rights and lese majeste
Greg,
In your last few comments you have asked me several quite disparate and complex questions that require, in my view, quite lengthy and detailed responses. You’ve also levelled a couple of quite nasty allegations at me that I consider to border on smears. No matter, I’m happy to take it on the chin.
What I will say in response is that I’m happy to be interviewed by you should you think my thoughts on those issues are of such importance to you and so that I am allowed a fair and equitable opportunity to rebut what I consider your false and malicious insinuations.
You can email me at [email protected] with suggestions how you want to conduct the interview. Face to face at a neutral venue is always my preference. And, of course, as is the usual practice. I’d like to know where you’d seek to publish this interview beforehand (I have noticed you have a blog – but it seems moribund, with little published there for a year or so – happy for it to any interview to be published there).
That offer also stands for your good friend Dan White should he wish to interview me on a separate occasion.
Unfortunately, here, on this thread, I won’t be responding to/rebutting any more of your smears, allegations, insinuations or questions as I don’t feel, given your repetitive tone it makes much sense to do so.
I do look forward to your correspondence and to meeting the challenge of your questions in the future.
Video on PM Yingluck’s Australia visit
Vichai, I think they’d prefer it if foreign representatives’ English is worse than the rest of the audience, so no chance of humiliation. Especially with benign ANU drunkards with remarkable ability to forget and deny blurred events present. Obviously lots of people to offend at this dinner. Was there any music played at the event, or was that too taboo for Ian Young? Can’t see the rest of the video, so that’ll have to do. Clearly I was needed to give a speech to unite everyone in hatred of something other than themselves.
Human rights and lese majeste
I am following this thread breathlessly, as I hear that L. Gaga is about to comment.
Human rights and lese majeste
Chris L makes a useful link to Bangkok Pundit who saw the issue. HRW has since inflated the figure they use.
The most interesting account I have seen is by Michael Connors (http://www6.cityu.edu.hk/searc/Data/FileUpload/296/WP102_09_MConnors.pdf). He actually examines the data from the 2008 interim report by the committee appointed to investigate and which has become the HRW source. It stated that there “were 2559 cases totaling 2873 deaths (2559 cases) from February to April” 2003. HRW now regularly cites something like the 2800 figure. Connors adds that: “drug related cases accounted for 1187 totaling 1370 murders. In 29 cases suspects had been arrested, while 47 suspects were at large. Of the remaining 1111 cases, no perpetrators had been identified.”
It is telling that HRW and others cite the 2800 figure rather than the 1370 figure.
It seems they continue to make the mistake they made earlier and that was the subject of the BP report.
Human rights and lese majeste
> “Under Thaksin the police walked tall”
There’s a dichotomy here. The police that let the RedShirt leader escape from the hotel room in Bangkok during the 2010 troubles were ‘under Thaksin’ and the majority of observers were thinking the police were walking very short that day.
Human rights and lese majeste
#83 Greg Lowe
“the Royal Thai Police are known to be very loyal to Thaksin.”
This is certainly true. In the south near Trang I know one police officer from a fiercely Democrat (verging on PAD supporting) family who supports PT and voted PT to the horror of his relatives. His reasoning being that ‘Under Thaksin the police walked tall’…. Interpret that how you will. Many of his colleagues in the same area are of of the same thinking according to him. In most parts of the country the ordinary cops tend to be vehemently pro-Thaksin and indeed they are often happy to initiate conversations about the highly regarded Lt Pl Colonel. The site of Arisaman Pongruangrong dangling from a rope as the police ‘bungled’ a fairly straightforward arrest was a fairly clear indication of where the loyalty of those particular arresting police officers’ loyalties lay…. And as with so many things here it comes down, largely, to an issue of patronage.
Human rights and lese majeste
I don’t want to get into any argument about the war on drugs, but Bangkok Pundit wrote a piece on it that you may find interesting.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/20405/2275-where-did-this-number-come-from/
Ambiga and the fate of women leaders in Malaysia
I think ambiga is critised/attacked not so much of her racial background but more of her gender. When I made a press statement saying that smaller political parties should be given a chance to contest in the forthcoming election, misconstrued by malaysiakini that prm wanted to contest in 3cornered fight, the cyber bloggers attacked me, less on my statements but more on my appearance, attire and age. They said that as a leader, how come I do not cover my head and wear the proper hijab. I am old and should just go back to die. Also I must be from an ulu kampong. So my attire, appearance and age was the main attack because I am a woman of Malay origin too. Mind you I was attacked by over 100 bloggers.
Human rights and lese majeste
Got it John Smith, murder is now relative….
Human rights and lese majeste
“Is the Thai army under the government, the palace, or does it act independently? Whatever it is, accountability should be held accordingly.”
Probably a mix of all three, depending on what day it is…
Do remember though that during the War on Drugs the vast majority of extra-judicial killings were carried out by police and the PM of the day was an ex-police officer, his ex-brother-in-law is the current chief of police, the Royal Thai Police are known to be very loyal to Thaksin.
Human rights and lese majeste
Greg,
I can agree with most things in your reply.
In Western democracies, the army is under the control of a civilian government. That makes the chain of responsibility and accountability clear.
I’m not sure if that is the case in Thailand. Is the Thai army under the government, the palace, or does it act independently? Whatever it is, accountability should be held accordingly.
Human rights and lese majeste
Ralph #76.
For six decades the power elite in Thailand has done all it can to cover-up the trail of extra-judicial political killing it oversees with impunity, and it must be understood that the figure of 11 000 is probably less than half, or even only one third, of the actual level of sacrifice.
Would seem that Thailand’s “power elite” has been a bit lax in killing off their opponents when compared to the “power elite” of their neighbors to the East and North. I seem to remember those “power elite” were supposed to be about a “struggle for democratic representation” and look how that turned out.
Human rights and lese majeste
Chris
Andrew was the one who asked is PT should be praised for Jiew’s “lenient” sentence. Lenience implies guilt, which I though a very odd position for a such as steadfast proponent of democracy and free speech as Andrew to take. That’s why I asked him the question. If you think that in Thailand the government/PM has or should have no influence over court verdicts and LM perhaps you would like to ask Andrew why he goes on about it all the time regarding Abhisit “the butcher of Bangkok” and the Democrats.
Andrew did mention how Shawn Crispin was kicked out of Thailand. This was along with Rodney Tasker from FEER. Shawn has repeatedly stated in public that Thaksin was the one behind that move.
“Even when a PM is responsible for human right violations, it can be because of pressure from forces that are difficult to resist.”
Hmm. Not convinced by that one. Especially in this case where Thaksin clearly positioned himself as the architect of the policy and described the police battling with drug dealers as “white knights”.
If a member of the Privy Council called Abhisit and called for 9,000 red shirts to be shot dead at Ratchaprasong on May 19, and Abhisit managed to whittle the number down to 90, would you consider that to be acceptable?
As far as I am aware, only four Thai officials have been found guilty of offences related to some form of human right abuses. Those were Somchai Wongsawat, Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, Pol Gen Patcharawat Wongsuwon and Pol Lt-Gen Suchart Muankaew. This was over the Oct 7 2008 crackdown on PAD prosesters outside of parliament.
The offences were for malfeasance etc. Were these men guilty, perhaps. Were the charges politically motivated? 100%. But the fact that in the course of Thai history no senior officials, top brass etc have been found guilty of any of the horrendous and extensive human rights abuses is a telling story. The rich and power operate with impunity. They are literally above or beyond the law.
Things will not improve until people are prosecuted. Such a list should include the PAD and UDD leaders who organised and instigated violence, Thaksin, the coup makers, any of the Democrat government, army/police top brass who were complicit in the indiscriminate killing of unarmed civillians, those involves in Tak Bai, Khrue Sai, the treatment of Rohingyas, and ongoing counter-insurgency operations in the South. We can add to that those involved in the 73, 76, 92 massacres, the red barrel and the anti-communist/-separatist death squads and, of course, the War on Drugs.
So to return to you initial point. No. The PM must be held accountable, especially for policies which are directly/indirectly result in mass killings.
Human rights and lese majeste
Greg,
What does the government have to do with court outcomes? Are you suggesting that the PM or the parliament have the power to determine or influence the outcome of LM trials? I’m confused.
Regarding the War on Drugs, remember that the Privy Council was calling for the execution of 60,000 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhumibol#2003_War_on_Drugs
Even when a PM is responsible for human right violations, it can be because of pressure from forces that are difficult to resist.
Human rights and lese majeste
By the way Andrew, you’ve just said:
“Pleased Jiew’s sentence was lenient however my real concerns still lie with Surachai & Da Torpedo who are ignored by media and HR NGOs.”
“If the Pheu Thai government have been blamed for the harsh sentences handed down to Ah Kong and others should they now be applauded for the leniency shown to Jiew?”
AP reported, “The case was seen as a test of freedom of expression in Thailand. She was the first webmaster prosecuted under tough cyber laws enacted after a 2006 coup.”
HRW called the prosecution of the first webmaster under the Computer Crimes Act a “chilling message to webmasters and Internet companies.”
So do you see this prosecution as lenient? Were you not rooting for a “not guilty” verdict?
Human rights and lese majeste
“There are something other details about the South and the War on Drugs I’d love to write about but due to reporting restrictions I am unable to do so.”
That’s interesting Andrew, but would you mind answering the questions?
1. Thaksin is the de facto leader and key financier of the PTP who you continually try to paint in a favourable light. Where do the brutal actions of his administration fit within your dual state theory?
Given the Shinawattra/Damapong clans’ both have/have had family members as senior military and police top brass (not to mention all the military men who joined PT in 2009/10), and that in any given dual state the military and police (often in conjunction with paramilitary groups etc) form the sharp end of the state which metes out violence on, and represses, sectors of the civilian population, can governments run by these families be anything other than active agents of the repressive state apparatus?
2. In any wider analysis of the dual state will you take into account the treatment of the ethnic Malays in the south? Do they count as political prisoners? Will you ask them how they have been treated under successive governments?
3. You say AI/HRW have been a complete failure in Thailand. So, for the sake of argument, say they have been a failure over the last two years (your argument not mine), has all of their other work been a failure. Again looking to the South, AI/HRW along with ICJ, JPF and other NGOs tracked down all the illegal detention and torture sites in the south (I think found 100 give or take a few) and brought to light the enforced disappearances, extra-judicial killings, torture, summary arrests. They dealt with issues such as Tak Bai, Khrue Sai, the Rohingya, the War on Drugs, they condemned violence from the police, military, and both red- and yellow-short protesters over the past few years. Has all of that been a failure?
Ambiga and the fate of women leaders in Malaysia
Dahlia, you have highlighted a very valid dimension to Ambiga’s harrassment.