Again, you can bash the politicians as much as u want but the fact remains, it wouldnt solve anything if we dont talk about the role of the monarch and the military in Thailand politic. The fact that you somehow down play the deal between PT and the military just being “business” without seeing beyond the “culture” behind it is the very problem why we have this endless argument without some solid solution. I have heard the thing you said, about how politicians are moraly bankrupt and so on, for decades. Thais education has been teaching that in school, our executive branch is the only institution that is under the heaviest scrutiny, does it change anything?
“Business is business after all, and both factions are there to do business above all…. Business is the name of the game.”
And yet again, we are stuck in the same endless, narrow and entirely fruitless discussion solely based on analyses of the elite conflict and elite machinations, completely excluding and disregarding the changing perception and position of ordinary people who in the past years became increasingly politically interested and active.
What deals have supposedly stuck, or not is almost entirely based on rumor and speculation, and supported by articles of so-called journalists who mostly base their points also on rumor and supposition, while in the area we actually can get provable facts – in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.
I see you talking endlessly about Thaksin, etc. When in the last few years have you talked with Thaksin, or people close to Thaksin? And if you would have, how can you be sure that what is told to you, reflects reality and not just a reality they want you to know?
But then, have you ever systematically and thoroughly researched grassroots level organizations, which would be the only way to question elite statements given to you or the public?
I am sorry, Dan, but i am rather tired of debates and discussion purely based on speculation, with the aim to voice just another opinion, where no actual research in areas where we can research is base of such opinions.
The Siam Reap event has shown quite clearly that certain elites may want to continue business as usual, but it has shown as well that these elites nowadays are under scrutiny of their own supporters. This by itself proves that Thailand has changed to quite some degree already.
There is only a very limited number of journalists here who do bother with the grassroots angle in a systematic manner, but there are many more journalists who have very strong opinions, yet without having done almost no work whatsoever on what should be the base of our profession – working in the field.
And of course, the resulting discussion is then incredibly distorted, the natural result when articles on the subject matter are solely based on lunches in nice aircon restaurants with members of those elites, who often themselves have no more clue on grassroots developments as these Bangkok bar stool journalists.
How on earth can it happen that a photographer who is basically not interested in politics at all [me] has researched, photographed and written more on this subject matter in a place with a higher density of journalists than anywhere else in this region?
When will i see you sweating in the field at one or the other Red Shirt, or Yellow Shirt event? For somebody who has such strong opinions, you physical presence is quite elusive, or have you, by chance, reached a stage of omniscience? 😉
Maybe, the election commission of Malaysia can learn something from Thailand? After all, some members last year observed the operations of Thailand’s ECT. In The Nation (July 3, 2011, page 1), we find the following.
“Election Commission of Malaysia chairman Tan Sri Abdul Aziz Mohd Yusof praised Thailand’s Election Commission for its ‘international-standard’ election management, which ensures free and fair treatment to all parties. … ‘The election process is transparent and just. There will be parties that will lose the election and I suggest that they accept the election outcome.'”
With silent encouragement of drooling hyena-esq international business communities ( fronted by innocent sounding loan agents- IMF, WB, ADB and pimped by elected representatives of “developed” and “not-so-developed” countries-the list of which is seen at 54 University Avenue, Rangoon) and tacit approval of Aung San Suu Kyi who no doubt will give blankets to the few survivors in publicised fashion later, Thein Sein government or truthfully Than Shwe government with Then Sein as a likable, if bald, front man is now openly and blatantly shelling and killing the civilians in Laiza.
History will show that like in Rwanda, the international community knows in advance what horrible carnage awaits the people of a regular civilian establishment under siege and under shelling and under attack, with no a single word of objection testifying what a lowest level of human form people of the world have become ( we are now all scum together-hooray – maybe scum united?) what a lowest level of intelligence they have to regard money and money alone as a sole desirable object totally blind to any love, kindness or attachment they currently enjoy.
However it may be of help for some to note that taking all the happenings into consideration, the likelihood is Laiza will be Than Shwe’s Waterloo.
And as a quick couple of examples look at the unseemly manouvreing by both the Red Shirt Leadership and the Democrats on the approaching military reshuffle of 2010… Or indeed look at who is the present chief of police. This is all standard ops for all factions in Thai politics…. And of course it doesn’t take much speculation on the quid pro quo with the deal struck between the army and the new Thaksin adminstration on Yingluck not messing with the army and poking Prayuth….. Business is business after all, and both factions are there to do business above all…. Business is the name of the game.
#72
I don’t mention the monarch because I don’t wish to be drawn into a discussion on the subject because I live and work in Thailand and I cannot discuss it freely and if I tried I would be constrained in what I say since the laws of Lese majeste are harsh and their application is terrifyingly capricious. Enough said?
The army comes under the definition of ‘all institutions’….. Although it usually acts also as a political faction…. The police is the same. They both fail the nation. We now have a police aligned government rather than a military aligned government. Neither is a good thing… How many more institutions would you like me to specify, without putting myself at risk of possible incarceration, since if Chalerm’s thought police are watching any website in the webasphere for LM content it is likely to be this one.
A great subject. Capitalism is a bit like the cane toad. It does a good job eradicating patronage and feudalism, but leaves such a trail of cultural and environmental destruction that one wonders whether it was a good idea.
What happened to the 44 million baht that didn’t make it to the Lao authorities? Capture commission? What’s going to happen to the million odd ya ma pills? Ceremonial burning for DEA officials at an auspicious future date? Was it the Lao police, Lao army or casino security team that caught Jai Norkham’s group? Interesting how a Thai bounty can motivate a quick capture in Laos. One wonders how much private $ stimulated the Isan killings of Lao ‘rebel figures’ in the early 2000s.
Im curious, with your long and eraborate post, why you never mentioned the military and the monarch for a single time. You can blame politician all you want, but the core of the problem in thailand’s politic lays on this very 2 constitution.
“Flowing alongside Kampot is the Kamchay tributary to the Mekong” – not correct! This river stems from the Bokor plateau and exits into the sea just past Kampot town. It has no connection to the Mekong.
“…the Bokor National Park which will be largely flooded” – inaccurate. Bokor NP covers an area 15-20 times the reservoir’s area.
These are not to say i support this damnned dam project, for i loathe it. This area was truly stunning before the construction began. Just trying to correct some inaccuracies.
#62 Tom Hoy “I think that just about everyone would agree with that. The question is in Thailand about precisely which institutions have failed democracy.”
That is not my point…. They all have pretty much… And the institutions have never actually been fully formed or established with more than a nod to a genuine democratic framework…. My point is about the liberty ‘elected’ politicians’ feel they have to abuse the institutions, ignore them, manipulate them and people them with their own families and cronies as soon as they get the chance and they all know this is part of political competition because those institutions are potentially up for grabs… This is not exclusive to aspiring democracies such as Thailand it has to be said…. But in Thailand it is a free-for-all and there is really very little to protect those institutions from the rapacious mauling of the feudal strong men that stand for election and win votes….
The fiction of ‘democracy’ and the placebo of voting are simply cosmetic enablers without any regulation of the democratic processes after the votes are cast and counted (leaving aside manipulations of the voting process itself). This is an ever advancing vicious circle that the likes of Thaksin (and the rest) exploit to the hilt…. And without wishing to provoke any point-missing-Hitler-obsessives out there…. It is an echo of what happened across a destabilised post World War One Europe…. Politicians knowing quite correctly that manipulating the institutions is an accepted part of the game…. A game they ALL understand.
That doesn’t mean you do away with elections… Its the only show in town… But it does mean that the politicians should be under greater scrutiny including those lauded by the Red shirts or who have done deals with PT to gain or regain office so they can continue to plunder now as they did before. …. And the politicians are not under scrutiny.
I re-iterate… The so called ‘War on Drugs’ was the ultimate illustration of this contempt for institutions and any semblance of ‘democratic’ rights since it involved both the rank perversion of the institutions themselves and the wholesale murder of citizens those institutions should exist to protect…. And those who claim they support ‘democracy’ will also say they supported that campaign of murder… The victims being ‘bad people’…… The aspirations to ‘democracy’ do not yet go hand in hand with any collective understanding of the obligations of democracy……. This is a continuing political manipulation that serves the rallying of mobs, but inhibits moving beyond the mob thinking that serves the present crew of Thai politicians and power brokers (across the board) quite well…..
Sad things happened after this ceremony. These KIA defectors were forced to join Burmese Army in the front line to fight against their fellows remained in the KIA. Kachin News reported many of these defectors had died already. What a sad thing. They simply became or used by Burmese Army as “human shells”. I think Burmese Government don’t have a mindset of providing rehabilitation and welfare to such defector who are trapped in the conflict. Burmese Army know only how to use them as human shell or human weapons. Ongoing clash in Kachin State is a huge sacrifice for KIA pushing for amending the 2008 Constitution. People in Kachin State are tired or sick of political crisis and being revolutionaries. KIA soldiers also don’t want to be revolutionaries for forever. so majority of Kachin want KIO to push the Naypyidaw as much as possible to amend the 2008 constitution and make a federal democracy. But the Naypyidaw regime doesn’t not want to talk about politics or solve political problem. Burmese generals (Peace negotiator Aung Thaung)won’t talk politics but ceasefire and how to do business (in development term). Keeping the 2008 Constitution, preserving the ethnic conflict and refusing to solve political problem is the goal of Burmese Army/former generals to hold status quo and rule the country in the years to come.
Having “grown up” in my latter sixties over the last few years, seeing first-hand and from verified documentation what is really going on ALL OVER, while Cambodia is atrocious in its own right, activists the world over have their work cut out for them. The powerful and ruthless are easily agitated by pointing fingers, and resort to whatever force it takes to stop the accusations, etc.
Neither major party has broken free of the Chao Pho’s. They both have their Nevins, Vatanas, Banharns, Sanohs, and Chalerms
Couldn’t agree more. But the comment was not about political parties, it was about the statement:
“socio-poltical structures are being reformed. In many cases this is now being at least partially led (maybe a lot mor ethan partially in many cases) from the bottom or near it or grassroots. “
I see little socio-political change at the grassroots level. I just see different strategies to accomplish the same thing, while a very effective PR campaign is being done to take the focus off the chao phos.
This detailed UK Guardian )April 26, 2012) piece on the killing of Chut Wutty, the Cambodia activist and environmentalist who was campaigning against illegal land deals, mining deals, timber deals in the area behind Koh Kong, illustrates how incredibly dangerous it is for any Cambodian to object in any way to these kinds of goings-on which are in the same category of defilement as the huge Singapore sand dredging operation off Koh Kong which has caused untold environmental damage to islands, local fishing communities and coastline:
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Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan #74
Again, you can bash the politicians as much as u want but the fact remains, it wouldnt solve anything if we dont talk about the role of the monarch and the military in Thailand politic. The fact that you somehow down play the deal between PT and the military just being “business” without seeing beyond the “culture” behind it is the very problem why we have this endless argument without some solid solution. I have heard the thing you said, about how politicians are moraly bankrupt and so on, for decades. Thais education has been teaching that in school, our executive branch is the only institution that is under the heaviest scrutiny, does it change anything?
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
“Dan”:
“Business is business after all, and both factions are there to do business above all…. Business is the name of the game.”
And yet again, we are stuck in the same endless, narrow and entirely fruitless discussion solely based on analyses of the elite conflict and elite machinations, completely excluding and disregarding the changing perception and position of ordinary people who in the past years became increasingly politically interested and active.
What deals have supposedly stuck, or not is almost entirely based on rumor and speculation, and supported by articles of so-called journalists who mostly base their points also on rumor and supposition, while in the area we actually can get provable facts – in the developments of the grassroots activists, hardly anyone makes the effort to investigate.
I see you talking endlessly about Thaksin, etc. When in the last few years have you talked with Thaksin, or people close to Thaksin? And if you would have, how can you be sure that what is told to you, reflects reality and not just a reality they want you to know?
But then, have you ever systematically and thoroughly researched grassroots level organizations, which would be the only way to question elite statements given to you or the public?
I am sorry, Dan, but i am rather tired of debates and discussion purely based on speculation, with the aim to voice just another opinion, where no actual research in areas where we can research is base of such opinions.
The Siam Reap event has shown quite clearly that certain elites may want to continue business as usual, but it has shown as well that these elites nowadays are under scrutiny of their own supporters. This by itself proves that Thailand has changed to quite some degree already.
There is only a very limited number of journalists here who do bother with the grassroots angle in a systematic manner, but there are many more journalists who have very strong opinions, yet without having done almost no work whatsoever on what should be the base of our profession – working in the field.
And of course, the resulting discussion is then incredibly distorted, the natural result when articles on the subject matter are solely based on lunches in nice aircon restaurants with members of those elites, who often themselves have no more clue on grassroots developments as these Bangkok bar stool journalists.
How on earth can it happen that a photographer who is basically not interested in politics at all [me] has researched, photographed and written more on this subject matter in a place with a higher density of journalists than anywhere else in this region?
When will i see you sweating in the field at one or the other Red Shirt, or Yellow Shirt event? For somebody who has such strong opinions, you physical presence is quite elusive, or have you, by chance, reached a stage of omniscience? 😉
Malaysia needs independent electoral observers
Maybe, the election commission of Malaysia can learn something from Thailand? After all, some members last year observed the operations of Thailand’s ECT. In The Nation (July 3, 2011, page 1), we find the following.
“Election Commission of Malaysia chairman Tan Sri Abdul Aziz Mohd Yusof praised Thailand’s Election Commission for its ‘international-standard’ election management, which ensures free and fair treatment to all parties. … ‘The election process is transparent and just. There will be parties that will lose the election and I suggest that they accept the election outcome.'”
Shining light on Kachin war coverage
With silent encouragement of drooling hyena-esq international business communities ( fronted by innocent sounding loan agents- IMF, WB, ADB and pimped by elected representatives of “developed” and “not-so-developed” countries-the list of which is seen at 54 University Avenue, Rangoon) and tacit approval of Aung San Suu Kyi who no doubt will give blankets to the few survivors in publicised fashion later, Thein Sein government or truthfully Than Shwe government with Then Sein as a likable, if bald, front man is now openly and blatantly shelling and killing the civilians in Laiza.
History will show that like in Rwanda, the international community knows in advance what horrible carnage awaits the people of a regular civilian establishment under siege and under shelling and under attack, with no a single word of objection testifying what a lowest level of human form people of the world have become ( we are now all scum together-hooray – maybe scum united?) what a lowest level of intelligence they have to regard money and money alone as a sole desirable object totally blind to any love, kindness or attachment they currently enjoy.
However it may be of help for some to note that taking all the happenings into consideration, the likelihood is Laiza will be Than Shwe’s Waterloo.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
And as a quick couple of examples look at the unseemly manouvreing by both the Red Shirt Leadership and the Democrats on the approaching military reshuffle of 2010… Or indeed look at who is the present chief of police. This is all standard ops for all factions in Thai politics…. And of course it doesn’t take much speculation on the quid pro quo with the deal struck between the army and the new Thaksin adminstration on Yingluck not messing with the army and poking Prayuth….. Business is business after all, and both factions are there to do business above all…. Business is the name of the game.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#72
I don’t mention the monarch because I don’t wish to be drawn into a discussion on the subject because I live and work in Thailand and I cannot discuss it freely and if I tried I would be constrained in what I say since the laws of Lese majeste are harsh and their application is terrifyingly capricious. Enough said?
The army comes under the definition of ‘all institutions’….. Although it usually acts also as a political faction…. The police is the same. They both fail the nation. We now have a police aligned government rather than a military aligned government. Neither is a good thing… How many more institutions would you like me to specify, without putting myself at risk of possible incarceration, since if Chalerm’s thought police are watching any website in the webasphere for LM content it is likely to be this one.
Institutions and regional development in Southeast Asia
A great subject. Capitalism is a bit like the cane toad. It does a good job eradicating patronage and feudalism, but leaves such a trail of cultural and environmental destruction that one wonders whether it was a good idea.
Open letter about lese majeste
Surachai Sae Dan got 2 1/2 more years for another case of LM (altogether, he’s got 10 years now).
http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Surachai-gets-2-12-years-for-lese-majeste-offence-30180863.html
Shan warlord captured?
What happened to the 44 million baht that didn’t make it to the Lao authorities? Capture commission? What’s going to happen to the million odd ya ma pills? Ceremonial burning for DEA officials at an auspicious future date? Was it the Lao police, Lao army or casino security team that caught Jai Norkham’s group? Interesting how a Thai bounty can motivate a quick capture in Laos. One wonders how much private $ stimulated the Isan killings of Lao ‘rebel figures’ in the early 2000s.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan# 72
Im curious, with your long and eraborate post, why you never mentioned the military and the monarch for a single time. You can blame politician all you want, but the core of the problem in thailand’s politic lays on this very 2 constitution.
A Mekong odyssey
“Flowing alongside Kampot is the Kamchay tributary to the Mekong” – not correct! This river stems from the Bokor plateau and exits into the sea just past Kampot town. It has no connection to the Mekong.
“…the Bokor National Park which will be largely flooded” – inaccurate. Bokor NP covers an area 15-20 times the reservoir’s area.
These are not to say i support this damnned dam project, for i loathe it. This area was truly stunning before the construction began. Just trying to correct some inaccuracies.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#62 Tom Hoy “I think that just about everyone would agree with that. The question is in Thailand about precisely which institutions have failed democracy.”
That is not my point…. They all have pretty much… And the institutions have never actually been fully formed or established with more than a nod to a genuine democratic framework…. My point is about the liberty ‘elected’ politicians’ feel they have to abuse the institutions, ignore them, manipulate them and people them with their own families and cronies as soon as they get the chance and they all know this is part of political competition because those institutions are potentially up for grabs… This is not exclusive to aspiring democracies such as Thailand it has to be said…. But in Thailand it is a free-for-all and there is really very little to protect those institutions from the rapacious mauling of the feudal strong men that stand for election and win votes….
The fiction of ‘democracy’ and the placebo of voting are simply cosmetic enablers without any regulation of the democratic processes after the votes are cast and counted (leaving aside manipulations of the voting process itself). This is an ever advancing vicious circle that the likes of Thaksin (and the rest) exploit to the hilt…. And without wishing to provoke any point-missing-Hitler-obsessives out there…. It is an echo of what happened across a destabilised post World War One Europe…. Politicians knowing quite correctly that manipulating the institutions is an accepted part of the game…. A game they ALL understand.
That doesn’t mean you do away with elections… Its the only show in town… But it does mean that the politicians should be under greater scrutiny including those lauded by the Red shirts or who have done deals with PT to gain or regain office so they can continue to plunder now as they did before. …. And the politicians are not under scrutiny.
I re-iterate… The so called ‘War on Drugs’ was the ultimate illustration of this contempt for institutions and any semblance of ‘democratic’ rights since it involved both the rank perversion of the institutions themselves and the wholesale murder of citizens those institutions should exist to protect…. And those who claim they support ‘democracy’ will also say they supported that campaign of murder… The victims being ‘bad people’…… The aspirations to ‘democracy’ do not yet go hand in hand with any collective understanding of the obligations of democracy……. This is a continuing political manipulation that serves the rallying of mobs, but inhibits moving beyond the mob thinking that serves the present crew of Thai politicians and power brokers (across the board) quite well…..
Shan warlord captured?
Here are more news articles, old and new, on Naw Kham:
New (on the capture of Naw Kham):
http://www.english.panglong.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4621:mekong-godfather-run-down&catid=89:drugs&Itemid=286
http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/3225
Old:
http://www.mizzima.com/news/inside-burma/5129-burmese-troops-clash-with-drug-runners-in-golden-triangle.html
http://www.mizzima.com/news/inside-burma/3566-two-policemen-injured-in-clash-with-drug-cartel-sent-to-rangoon-.html
http://www2.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=15231
http://www.english.panglong.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2495:hunted-shan-mafia-members-speak&Itemid=301
A long article by Michael Winchester
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/MK05Ae02.html
Two longer articles by Brian McCartan:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/KD07Ae01.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/ML17Ae01.html
A special report by Andrew R.C. Marshall
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/27/us-special-report-mekong-idUSTRE80Q00G20120127
Seeking practical benefits from national reconciliation in Myanmar
Sorry if things got in a crossfire. #9 was meant to be a riposte to plan B’s #8 in the other thread “Booming Burma”.
Shining light on Kachin war coverage
Sad things happened after this ceremony. These KIA defectors were forced to join Burmese Army in the front line to fight against their fellows remained in the KIA. Kachin News reported many of these defectors had died already. What a sad thing. They simply became or used by Burmese Army as “human shells”. I think Burmese Government don’t have a mindset of providing rehabilitation and welfare to such defector who are trapped in the conflict. Burmese Army know only how to use them as human shell or human weapons. Ongoing clash in Kachin State is a huge sacrifice for KIA pushing for amending the 2008 Constitution. People in Kachin State are tired or sick of political crisis and being revolutionaries. KIA soldiers also don’t want to be revolutionaries for forever. so majority of Kachin want KIO to push the Naypyidaw as much as possible to amend the 2008 constitution and make a federal democracy. But the Naypyidaw regime doesn’t not want to talk about politics or solve political problem. Burmese generals (Peace negotiator Aung Thaung)won’t talk politics but ceasefire and how to do business (in development term). Keeping the 2008 Constitution, preserving the ethnic conflict and refusing to solve political problem is the goal of Burmese Army/former generals to hold status quo and rule the country in the years to come.
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
Good link with supporting document links…
http://www.globalwitness.org/library/supporting-documents-shifting-sand-report
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
Having “grown up” in my latter sixties over the last few years, seeing first-hand and from verified documentation what is really going on ALL OVER, while Cambodia is atrocious in its own right, activists the world over have their work cut out for them. The powerful and ruthless are easily agitated by pointing fingers, and resort to whatever force it takes to stop the accusations, etc.
Institutions and regional development in Southeast Asia
Thanks, Srithanonchai for those paper links.
Interesting to watch this guy and see how his thought and ideas develop 🙂
When Thaksin comes home
Leah Hoyt #63
Neither major party has broken free of the Chao Pho’s. They both have their Nevins, Vatanas, Banharns, Sanohs, and Chalerms
Couldn’t agree more. But the comment was not about political parties, it was about the statement:
“socio-poltical structures are being reformed. In many cases this is now being at least partially led (maybe a lot mor ethan partially in many cases) from the bottom or near it or grassroots. “
I see little socio-political change at the grassroots level. I just see different strategies to accomplish the same thing, while a very effective PR campaign is being done to take the focus off the chao phos.
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
This detailed UK Guardian )April 26, 2012) piece on the killing of Chut Wutty, the Cambodia activist and environmentalist who was campaigning against illegal land deals, mining deals, timber deals in the area behind Koh Kong, illustrates how incredibly dangerous it is for any Cambodian to object in any way to these kinds of goings-on which are in the same category of defilement as the huge Singapore sand dredging operation off Koh Kong which has caused untold environmental damage to islands, local fishing communities and coastline:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/26/cambodia-police-shoot-dead-antilogging-activist?INTCMP=SRCH