The issue here is that your statement only shows how superficial you know abou the matter regarding Hitler ascendent to power.
Hitler didn’t have any power after March 1933 election. Far from it, he was appointed by Hiddenburg as the chanceller, a ceremonial position with no real political power. Only when Hitler orcharestrate the Reichstag Fire incident that Hiddenburg gave ways, under then German constitution article 48 which lead to the Reichstag Fire Deree that Hitler start to have any real power. His position was later solidify by the Enabling act which effectively put all power under the chanceller.
Yes, Hitler was an appointed dictator, not the elected one.
This coupled with the concessions granted to lumber, mining, sugar and rubber plantations pretty much assure that the unique rain forest area will be destroyed within the next decade or two. Sad as it is a really beautiful area.
“In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
And what has that got to do with Thaksin and Pheu Thai?
Or have you unearthed evidence that Thaksin and PT are about to create their own “enabling act” and then embark on a genocide?
If you haven’t, comparing PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 is ludicrous.
I’m unsure what it is you’re exactly trying to say by invoking Hitler and 1933.
Of course you might be arguing that democracy as a form of political practice is a failure because it helped bring people like Hitler to power.
I’d disagree.
Or you might be making an argument that democracies have inherent flaws in them and can lead to the election of “bad” people.
To a point I’d agree with that.
But what is your solution?
No-one here, least of all myself, has ever argued PT’s 2011 election victory is emblematic of perfect democracy. But compared to military coups and snipers being used against civilians it is progress.
If the Thai people don’t like them the point is that PT can be voted out. The recent by-election at Pathum Thani revealed that.
And compare what PT said after that defeat to the usual line of “dumb kwai, bought by Thaksin” put out by the Dems when they lose.
The clue to their electoral success lies in that.
And Thaksin’s formidable skills as a campaigner – Nick’s report of him taking two and a half hours to meet everyone is key. Can you imagine Abhisit doing that? Not in a million years. He’d sneer at the poor Thais and talk in his “perfect English” to a enraptured Western reporter who’d then report on what a wonderful politician Abhisit is.
I also don’t think Thaksin has ever hidden his desire to be incredibly rich. But has he secured US$35 billion via Thai taxpayers? I think not. At least he managed to actually help create wealth rather than accrue it without any scrutiny or oversight.
I absolutely agree with you – a full and complete investigation needs to be completed.
But to just blame PTP for that not happening is nonsense.
One key reason that a proper investigation has not taken place so far is this.
When Abhisit set-up the Truth and Reconciliation Committee he gave it no powers of subpoena. They have called several military figures to attend and give evidence. All have refused.
Abhisit had the chance to put together a proper investigation committee and didn’t do it.
He had 14months from the massacre to his humiliating election defeat and didn’t take full advantage of that to put a proper investigation in place.
At present there are dozens and dozens of UDD members languishing in prison for the events of 2010. Some have decades long prison sentences for relatively minor offences. Many of those cases are on appeal.
To claim that the UDD have not been investigated nor paid a price brought to bear via the legal system is a straight-out lie. Go to the prison at Laksi and you’ll see all the political prisoners there.
Conversely not one single soldier or politician has been properly held to account, ever, in Thailand for 2010 nor any other similar massacre or coup.
Why did the army feel the need to shoot Nurse Ked or Sher? Eye-witnesses at both killings say it was very very clear both were completely unarmed. Someone has to answer for that and the rest of the 91. To just create some fiction/excuses about “what the soldiers were thinking” or that because some other people were armed the unarmed protesters then needed to be executed wouldn’t stand up in any independent court in any democracy.
The 2009/2010 angle you’re working on is moot. Sending in heavily armed troops, from an army with a reputation for massacre like the Thai Army, against civilians at night and using armoured vehicles is hardly the move of a government committed to a peaceful resolution. This needs to be set in the context that up until that point the protest not only had a complete legitimacy in calling for the Abhisit govt to be removed immediately but that it was also almost entirely peaceful.
In international and domestic law a government has a greater duty to behave lawfully than a protest group. That’s why, in theory at least, a govt gets the keys to the levers of power, gets to send its ministers around the world, gets to spend all those taxes.
So, trying to make an equivalence between the govt and the Red Shirts is another moot point. As pointed out many Red Shirts are already in prison. Many are dead. They’ve paid a very high price. Abhisit gets to answer soft questions from foolish, bought journalists at the FCCT rather than face a proper investigation.
Snipers were used against civilians. Is there anything more outrageous, cynical and calculated than that? And you then talk of it as a “tragedy”? What an awful and mealy-mouthed term to use.
“While you are mostly looking at individuals you are blinding yourself to the undeniable fact that Thailand has seen major political developments in the rise of political awareness in previously unpoliticized sectors of society. ”
I am not…. There is most certainly a huge rise in political awareness…. But that is actually a double edged sword and explisns the vitriolic brainwashing tactics of bothe yellow and the Red…. It’s about scaring and steering the beast…. That doesn’t negate the positive and now inevitable potential nature of change.
But that change IS about individuals…. And my experience from Songkhla to Mae Hong Son and even to Red heartland areas such as Phrae and Udon (although less so), is that there is a general cynicism and resignation about the possibilities for change, particularly with regards to corruption…. That coupled with the fact that some almost see corruption as a virtue, Thaksin being seen as ‘virtuously’ clever….. As they say in Khmer “Mien loi j’eut l’or. Ot mein loi j’eut ot l’or”…… Roughly translates as “If you have money you have a good heart. If you don’t have money you have a bad heart”…. It is a perversion of the notion of Karmic reward.
Also the people you are talking about sound like activists…. That is not most people.
“It is inevitable that sooner or later parliament and extra-parliamentary establishments will have to incorporate the discourse that takes place in society. ”
History tells us no such thing. Just look at the vested interests lined up against that happening?….. Whilst I am all for a bit of optimism, one cannot ignore the ruthless way in which powerful and wealthy people protect their wealth and power…. And that includes the political patron, Thaksin Shinawatra as well others of his ilk who are less successful at playing the manipulative, populist game…. A game at which he is the acknowledged master.
I don’t see that this has to be a disaster. It would obviously be possible to do good (and be paid) at both ends by dredging harbours and shipping channels in Cambodia, Malaysia, and Indonesia, and dumping the sediment at Singapore.
Choices are not that dark in Thailand. You only look at parliamentary politics, and the choices given there. But i think you will have to go a bit further than that. Politics is not just done in parliament, but political changes occur often in communities and on street level long before they are reflected in parliament, especially in a country like Thailand in which parliamentary politics are bound in severe restrictions.
While you are mostly looking at individuals you are blinding yourself to the undeniable fact that Thailand has seen major political developments in the rise of political awareness in previously unpoliticized sectors of society. It is also undeniable that Thaksin was a catalyst for these changes – both on the Red side, and ironically enough – also on the yellow side. That so far may have been his biggest legacy – through the “divisive” figure of Thaksin a system began breaking up, and continues to transform itself. People began waking up that they are more than just subjects of a paternalistic system.
While you, and others may few Thaksin as just another political patron, you forget to look at the changing self-awareness of ordinary people in relation to the state. Of course this is not a sudden enlightenment, but an ongoing process of development that will take more time. But never before in Thailand so many sectors of society have begun questioning their own state and their position in the state.
Don’t be just so hung up on individuals – politics are not just made by leaders.
In the Thailand of 2012 people have far more choices than ever before. Never have there been extra-parliamentary venues to instill political change as there are been now – warts and all. We are now in a period of political awakening, and i think the discourse that is taking place on all levels of society is utterly fascinating.
It is inevitable that sooner or later parliament and extra-parliamentary establishments will have to incorporate the discourse that takes place in society. It has even taken place to some degree. When you look for example look at the 112 discussion, already that parliamentary politics has noticed that subject is a change in itself. In this case it doesn’t matter that parliament has decided not to amend article 112, already that parliament was forced to react and address this issue is already a sign for change, a sign that this particular discussion is already noticed. The next step, sometime in the future, will be that parliament will not just notice the subject, but will be forced to discuss the matter.
The Yellow Shirts have over the past years somewhat relegated themselves into an ideological desert, but within the Red Shirt movement many factions have bloomed, especially after the 2010 Rajaprasong crackdown, not just leftist educated minority groups but also increasingly grassroots organizations have now begun looking far beyond Thaksin in their demands. That may not be reflected in the English language newspapers. But if you visit these local organizations, the community radio stations, and observe their discourse – you will see this clearly.
Nick #4 I will not go here into the screw-ups of the military (and the government) in 2010, as i just haven’t got the time to write all those here and now.
Nor will you ever go into what was the reason for the armed element within the UDD in 2010.
#35 Ralph…s “Sure, I can ignore high school historical clangers, and can accept that you seem unable to tell an election from a coup.”
Your point is? The page says this, “Federal elections were held in Germany on 5 March 1933. The Nazis registered a large increase in votes again emerging as the largest party by far, nevertheless they failed to obtain absolute majority. Thanks to the success in the poll, the party leader Adolf Hitler – appointed Chancellor since 30 January – was able to pass the Enabling Act on 23 March, which effectively gave him the power of a dictator.”
I said
“In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
What is it that you are taking issue with here Ralph?
The other John Smith # 5.
Again, almost certain confirmation you are indeed Andrew Spooner. The same fallacy arguments, changing the subject and putting words in my mouth but at least you did not use neo-fascist anyway.
I have no problem with a full open investigation of the 2010 protests and the violence that ensued.
What should come out of that would a full accounting of not only how the Army did or did not follow the rules of engagement laid out to them, but also who funded and directed the armed element within the UDD.
You are all in favor of the first part, but seem to get very vague about the second. The armed element that existed in 2010 is the main difference between the 2009 and 2010 events. The answer to who was behind the change in the UDD strategy is the key to the whole issue.
Do you want to know the answer? I certainly do. And just as much, I also want to hear what the ground level Army commanders thought their rules of engagement were and if they believed they were following them. I would like to see documentation of where every person killed or wounded (protestors, bystanders, or Army) was, who was around them , and what was going on when it happened.
The fact that all you hear now is about full amnesty and both the families of the military and civilian causalities are just going to have to let it go, shows both the UDD and PTP leadership do not want a full investigation.
There is plenty of blame for the tragedy to go around, but to deny the UDD leadership and their backers have no share of that blame is just being intentionally blind to the reality of the situation.
Dan now says: “The point about the virtues of action as opposed to the virtue of simply being elected is actually the point and has nothing to do with whether Thakisn is like Hitler or not. In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
Sure, I can ignore high school historical clangers, and can accept that you seem unable to tell an election from a coup.
The diaspora Cambodian and Southeast Asian communities in U.S. responded with how disappointed they are when Studio Revolt’s submission was not selected. Please see the link and a passage from the public statement below…
THIS IS WHY WE’RE ANGRY: A Call to Action
A Statement from Southeast Asian American Community Groups
“The community and the country watched and voted, and “My Asian Americana” went viral and was viewed by thousands of people! We were thrilled. We knew a presentation at the White House would not solve the problem of deportation. But it would be a step in this long haul movement. However, Studio Revolt was not invited to the White House as one of the 9 out of 11 chosen groups, despite clear and massive public support. Our families, our communities, our pain, was silenced again.”
I find that roughly translated ” the best (workers ) democratic union is the lu-gyi-less ( no one to give about orders) one” to be so true.
Sadly the most celebrated “democratic one” in Burma (NLD) seems total opposite.
It bis true that people in unison can do horribly wrong things. Like the newspaper heading of second election of George W Bush “How can 31 million people get wrong?”
But the treatment for it in a democratic sense or the cause of it is simply manipulation of information, that’s where the election war chest comes in It was not because people feel the same with GW Bush as seen only a short 3 years later.
In Burma today at the time of intense necessity, true information, unbiased analysis and most of all inclusive discussion, debate and canvassing of people’s opinion are TOTALLY NON-EXISTENT.
And for the rest of world to applaud it as “democracy” is patronising at best (these Burmese should be grateful to get this much opening) or evil at worst (when they open up, before they realise it, lets go in and plunder).
Surprised that there is no comment about the irony of a mass Thai political rally in a town whose name is roughly translated as “defeat of Siam”.
It is difficult to understand without context, but it is somewhat disturbing that they seem to be paying special reverence to Kali. Rah, rah for death and destruction. Perhaps this is in line with Jatuporn’s alleged Mark/Thep Taug death wish (BTW suspect the feeling is mutual). Anyway I’m sure this was all light hearted jest in the name of reconciliation.
Anyway it is quite amusing to see a Uni from a US satellite/puppet state is so self confident that it can pontificate on the affairs of the world’s most populist region.
If I were in OZ, I may think a little more about why our head of state is an English woman of German descent or why we are hosting a permanent USMC base.
“And Thatcher was eventually forced out by her own party after the Poll Tax riots. What would’ve been a better solution? A military coup in both UK and USA”
She was…. I was there covering it for the Observer newspaper….. And nor was it any solution in Thailand in 2006 (although it’s a pretty shaky parallel to be fair). When Thakisn first became PM he was widely backed across the social spectrum (including amongst more affluent sectors of Bangkokians) and by 2006 was widely loathed by the exact same people once they saw he was not a ‘new broom’ but just another lying business man and deal maker snout-in-trough, the Temasak deal really showing where his priorities lay, although it was already clear….. Many Thai people, especially those who had supported hin as a conduit to more modern and fairer governance rather than just a PM who ran programs they felt alleviated their dire poverty, saw through him…. The coup set back everything and gave him the perfect vehicle to become the utterly fraudulent ‘people’s hero’ – a card he play so cynically to this day in order to advance the his business/political interests.
“And back to the Thaksin issue – what is your alternative? That people just stop campaigning, and put their trust into the same old system that they were so disappointed in that they voted for Thaksin in the first place, warts and all”
I think Thaksin is VERY much part of the old system… He has just spruced up the marketing. All factions understand how they increase leverage…. And of course winning repeated elections gives him immense leverage and I am sure that has been reflected in any rejigged deals he has with the other powerful factions and families who are all playing the same game.
“Why not let Thais decide over their own future, make their own mistakes, and this way develop themselves? ”
On this we are agreed and nor is there any alternative other than the ones you outline which are all even worse…. Thais are between a rock and hard place at the moment and many know it. They have the power to vote sometimes, but few or o half decent or honourable politicains to vote for….. I hear this all over the country except the heartland Red areas and even in those provinces many who arn’t Thaksin dazzled see the choice often as the better of two evils. They are weary of these corrupt pariahs…..
“Thaksin is just part of Thailand’s process of development – no more, no less. Again, as you are so unhappy about, and vehemently against this Red/Yellow conflict – what is your alternative? What shall Thais do?”
That is exactly my point….. Their choices are mainly rotten and essentially add up to a choice of gangsters, oligarchs and generals…. All of whom are pretty much in the same business?….. Thaksin or Sonthi?….. I can’t tell them apart…… The Surat mafia boss, Suthep or the Buriram mafia boss Newin?….. Peas in a pod.
“Do i detect a slight longing for days of the empire on which the sun never sets?”
Well as the Persians used to say, “the Sun never sets on the British Empire because no one trusts an Englishman in the Dark”…. I digress….. My point about Germany was about the development of the Nation state in Europe as a whole and indeed the scramble for empire and the global horror of World War 1…. A war without meaning.
“Is Thaksin that “bad”? Thaksin the impaler?
Why not Genghis Khan? Nero? Caligula?”
Indeed!…. Why not?….
“What about Charlemagne?”
My knowledge of the Dark Ages are exactly that….. Dark….. So I can’t answer that one.
You huge flocks of John Smiths are confusing me!….
“And no, despite all those clever PAD posters, Thaksin is not a Hitler.”
Of course not. He is a brutal serial rights abuser….. But to equate him with Adolf Hitler is absurd and symptomatic of idiotic PAD hatespeak (the kind idiotic hatespeak that was also blasting 24 hour from the UDD stage at Rajaprasong…. They both use the same incipient fascist methods of rabble rousing and brainwashing with vitriol). … The point about the virtues of action as opposed to the virtue of simply being elected is actually the point and has nothing to do with whether Thakisn is like Hitler or not. In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… So…. I am sorry about that Mrs and Mrs Blumnthal!…. Don’t look so glum!….. You will actually be ‘democratically’ gassed if that gives you and all the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, leftists and mentally handicapped any comfort. … Its the peoples choice you know.
#28 John inbkk….”The PAD have made a concerted effort to discredit all tenants of democracy.”…..
Indeed they have. Largely because no one would vote for them if they fielded candidates and they have a mission to fight their increasing irrelevance with a lurch into yet ever more virulent nationalism…. And they too, like the UDD stage, use distinctly fascist methods of propagandising and hatespeak….. Nor do they have potential to be anything other than a regressive and reactionary movement unlike the UDD which does have elements that could propel them to be a truly a truly progressive force. This will never happen whist the majority of the UDD remain simply a platform for furthering the interests of ‘the boss’, Thaksin Shinawatra, and his clique….. Given the moribund, corrupt, chaotic and disdainful mess that the Democrats are, sections of the UDD dropping Thaksin is the only hope for any meaningful expectation of preventing Thailand becoming a one party state or descending into even more serious conflict than it has already undergone.
The rest of your points seem to be veering off track into an attack on the PAD, which whilst entirely justified in my view, is not really what this thread is about from what I can tell….. Nor is Godwin’s law of any interest…. There are two many parallels with unrest and the growth of fascism in Europe in the 1930s for it not to come up….. Especially in a debate where people claim that the fact that someone has won an election makes it wrong to question their motives, actions or politics….
Thaksin has proven again and again that his repeated election wins give him the right to trample the institutions, have people murdered at will without arrest or trial and plunder the nations wealth….. That is distinctly counter productive and anti democratic view. His repeated elections wins did not and do not give him these rights any more than they would to the democrats in the unlikely event they managed to win an election. The present government of Thailand in the shape of Thaksin nominees and the old gangster faces of people like Chalerm and and Banharn is deeply questionable and there is no effective opposition because the Dems are no better. Democracy cannot work without effective dissent and a genuine choice and since the political culture of Thailand is so incredibly corrupt and Peua Thai are the only show in town, democracy as a reality remains elusive despite the fact that people get to cast a vote every now and then for any one or other of the gangsters and feudal family candidates on offer…… Thonburia, Supan, Buriram, Surat… It doesn’t matter which party these feudal strongmen are in… They represent the system and Thaksin is simply just one of them doing the same business in the same way, but with slightly upgraded PR tricks that work.
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Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan# 36
The issue here is that your statement only shows how superficial you know abou the matter regarding Hitler ascendent to power.
Hitler didn’t have any power after March 1933 election. Far from it, he was appointed by Hiddenburg as the chanceller, a ceremonial position with no real political power. Only when Hitler orcharestrate the Reichstag Fire incident that Hiddenburg gave ways, under then German constitution article 48 which lead to the Reichstag Fire Deree that Hitler start to have any real power. His position was later solidify by the Enabling act which effectively put all power under the chanceller.
Yes, Hitler was an appointed dictator, not the elected one.
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
Global Witness has a detailed report here:
http://e360.yale.edu/images/digest/shifting_sand_final.pdf
This coupled with the concessions granted to lumber, mining, sugar and rubber plantations pretty much assure that the unique rain forest area will be destroyed within the next decade or two. Sad as it is a really beautiful area.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan
“In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
And what has that got to do with Thaksin and Pheu Thai?
Or have you unearthed evidence that Thaksin and PT are about to create their own “enabling act” and then embark on a genocide?
If you haven’t, comparing PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 is ludicrous.
I’m unsure what it is you’re exactly trying to say by invoking Hitler and 1933.
Of course you might be arguing that democracy as a form of political practice is a failure because it helped bring people like Hitler to power.
I’d disagree.
Or you might be making an argument that democracies have inherent flaws in them and can lead to the election of “bad” people.
To a point I’d agree with that.
But what is your solution?
No-one here, least of all myself, has ever argued PT’s 2011 election victory is emblematic of perfect democracy. But compared to military coups and snipers being used against civilians it is progress.
If the Thai people don’t like them the point is that PT can be voted out. The recent by-election at Pathum Thani revealed that.
And compare what PT said after that defeat to the usual line of “dumb kwai, bought by Thaksin” put out by the Dems when they lose.
The clue to their electoral success lies in that.
And Thaksin’s formidable skills as a campaigner – Nick’s report of him taking two and a half hours to meet everyone is key. Can you imagine Abhisit doing that? Not in a million years. He’d sneer at the poor Thais and talk in his “perfect English” to a enraptured Western reporter who’d then report on what a wonderful politician Abhisit is.
I also don’t think Thaksin has ever hidden his desire to be incredibly rich. But has he secured US$35 billion via Thai taxpayers? I think not. At least he managed to actually help create wealth rather than accrue it without any scrutiny or oversight.
A Red Shirt Songkran party and amnesty thoughts
John Smith
I absolutely agree with you – a full and complete investigation needs to be completed.
But to just blame PTP for that not happening is nonsense.
One key reason that a proper investigation has not taken place so far is this.
When Abhisit set-up the Truth and Reconciliation Committee he gave it no powers of subpoena. They have called several military figures to attend and give evidence. All have refused.
Abhisit had the chance to put together a proper investigation committee and didn’t do it.
He had 14months from the massacre to his humiliating election defeat and didn’t take full advantage of that to put a proper investigation in place.
At present there are dozens and dozens of UDD members languishing in prison for the events of 2010. Some have decades long prison sentences for relatively minor offences. Many of those cases are on appeal.
To claim that the UDD have not been investigated nor paid a price brought to bear via the legal system is a straight-out lie. Go to the prison at Laksi and you’ll see all the political prisoners there.
Conversely not one single soldier or politician has been properly held to account, ever, in Thailand for 2010 nor any other similar massacre or coup.
Why did the army feel the need to shoot Nurse Ked or Sher? Eye-witnesses at both killings say it was very very clear both were completely unarmed. Someone has to answer for that and the rest of the 91. To just create some fiction/excuses about “what the soldiers were thinking” or that because some other people were armed the unarmed protesters then needed to be executed wouldn’t stand up in any independent court in any democracy.
The 2009/2010 angle you’re working on is moot. Sending in heavily armed troops, from an army with a reputation for massacre like the Thai Army, against civilians at night and using armoured vehicles is hardly the move of a government committed to a peaceful resolution. This needs to be set in the context that up until that point the protest not only had a complete legitimacy in calling for the Abhisit govt to be removed immediately but that it was also almost entirely peaceful.
In international and domestic law a government has a greater duty to behave lawfully than a protest group. That’s why, in theory at least, a govt gets the keys to the levers of power, gets to send its ministers around the world, gets to spend all those taxes.
So, trying to make an equivalence between the govt and the Red Shirts is another moot point. As pointed out many Red Shirts are already in prison. Many are dead. They’ve paid a very high price. Abhisit gets to answer soft questions from foolish, bought journalists at the FCCT rather than face a proper investigation.
Snipers were used against civilians. Is there anything more outrageous, cynical and calculated than that? And you then talk of it as a “tragedy”? What an awful and mealy-mouthed term to use.
Eu Chooi Yip: Singapore’s unknown communist leader
Thanks Pat for the assistance. Any information given is helpful and worth looking at.
When Thaksin comes home
#59 Nick
“While you are mostly looking at individuals you are blinding yourself to the undeniable fact that Thailand has seen major political developments in the rise of political awareness in previously unpoliticized sectors of society. ”
I am not…. There is most certainly a huge rise in political awareness…. But that is actually a double edged sword and explisns the vitriolic brainwashing tactics of bothe yellow and the Red…. It’s about scaring and steering the beast…. That doesn’t negate the positive and now inevitable potential nature of change.
But that change IS about individuals…. And my experience from Songkhla to Mae Hong Son and even to Red heartland areas such as Phrae and Udon (although less so), is that there is a general cynicism and resignation about the possibilities for change, particularly with regards to corruption…. That coupled with the fact that some almost see corruption as a virtue, Thaksin being seen as ‘virtuously’ clever….. As they say in Khmer “Mien loi j’eut l’or. Ot mein loi j’eut ot l’or”…… Roughly translates as “If you have money you have a good heart. If you don’t have money you have a bad heart”…. It is a perversion of the notion of Karmic reward.
Also the people you are talking about sound like activists…. That is not most people.
“It is inevitable that sooner or later parliament and extra-parliamentary establishments will have to incorporate the discourse that takes place in society. ”
History tells us no such thing. Just look at the vested interests lined up against that happening?….. Whilst I am all for a bit of optimism, one cannot ignore the ruthless way in which powerful and wealthy people protect their wealth and power…. And that includes the political patron, Thaksin Shinawatra as well others of his ilk who are less successful at playing the manipulative, populist game…. A game at which he is the acknowledged master.
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
I don’t see that this has to be a disaster. It would obviously be possible to do good (and be paid) at both ends by dredging harbours and shipping channels in Cambodia, Malaysia, and Indonesia, and dumping the sediment at Singapore.
When Thaksin comes home
“Dan”:
Choices are not that dark in Thailand. You only look at parliamentary politics, and the choices given there. But i think you will have to go a bit further than that. Politics is not just done in parliament, but political changes occur often in communities and on street level long before they are reflected in parliament, especially in a country like Thailand in which parliamentary politics are bound in severe restrictions.
While you are mostly looking at individuals you are blinding yourself to the undeniable fact that Thailand has seen major political developments in the rise of political awareness in previously unpoliticized sectors of society. It is also undeniable that Thaksin was a catalyst for these changes – both on the Red side, and ironically enough – also on the yellow side. That so far may have been his biggest legacy – through the “divisive” figure of Thaksin a system began breaking up, and continues to transform itself. People began waking up that they are more than just subjects of a paternalistic system.
While you, and others may few Thaksin as just another political patron, you forget to look at the changing self-awareness of ordinary people in relation to the state. Of course this is not a sudden enlightenment, but an ongoing process of development that will take more time. But never before in Thailand so many sectors of society have begun questioning their own state and their position in the state.
Don’t be just so hung up on individuals – politics are not just made by leaders.
In the Thailand of 2012 people have far more choices than ever before. Never have there been extra-parliamentary venues to instill political change as there are been now – warts and all. We are now in a period of political awakening, and i think the discourse that is taking place on all levels of society is utterly fascinating.
It is inevitable that sooner or later parliament and extra-parliamentary establishments will have to incorporate the discourse that takes place in society. It has even taken place to some degree. When you look for example look at the 112 discussion, already that parliamentary politics has noticed that subject is a change in itself. In this case it doesn’t matter that parliament has decided not to amend article 112, already that parliament was forced to react and address this issue is already a sign for change, a sign that this particular discussion is already noticed. The next step, sometime in the future, will be that parliament will not just notice the subject, but will be forced to discuss the matter.
The Yellow Shirts have over the past years somewhat relegated themselves into an ideological desert, but within the Red Shirt movement many factions have bloomed, especially after the 2010 Rajaprasong crackdown, not just leftist educated minority groups but also increasingly grassroots organizations have now begun looking far beyond Thaksin in their demands. That may not be reflected in the English language newspapers. But if you visit these local organizations, the community radio stations, and observe their discourse – you will see this clearly.
A Red Shirt Songkran party and amnesty thoughts
Nick #4
I will not go here into the screw-ups of the military (and the government) in 2010, as i just haven’t got the time to write all those here and now.
Nor will you ever go into what was the reason for the armed element within the UDD in 2010.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#34 Yojimbo
“Surprised that there is no comment about the irony of a mass Thai political rally in a town whose name is roughly translated as “defeat of Siam”.
That was mentioned here
http://www.newmandala.org/2012/04/16/when-thaksin-comes-home/
Post 3
#35 Ralph…s “Sure, I can ignore high school historical clangers, and can accept that you seem unable to tell an election from a coup.”
Your point is? The page says this, “Federal elections were held in Germany on 5 March 1933. The Nazis registered a large increase in votes again emerging as the largest party by far, nevertheless they failed to obtain absolute majority. Thanks to the success in the poll, the party leader Adolf Hitler – appointed Chancellor since 30 January – was able to pass the Enabling Act on 23 March, which effectively gave him the power of a dictator.”
I said
“In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
What is it that you are taking issue with here Ralph?
A Red Shirt Songkran party and amnesty thoughts
The other John Smith # 5.
Again, almost certain confirmation you are indeed Andrew Spooner. The same fallacy arguments, changing the subject and putting words in my mouth but at least you did not use neo-fascist anyway.
I have no problem with a full open investigation of the 2010 protests and the violence that ensued.
What should come out of that would a full accounting of not only how the Army did or did not follow the rules of engagement laid out to them, but also who funded and directed the armed element within the UDD.
You are all in favor of the first part, but seem to get very vague about the second. The armed element that existed in 2010 is the main difference between the 2009 and 2010 events. The answer to who was behind the change in the UDD strategy is the key to the whole issue.
Do you want to know the answer? I certainly do. And just as much, I also want to hear what the ground level Army commanders thought their rules of engagement were and if they believed they were following them. I would like to see documentation of where every person killed or wounded (protestors, bystanders, or Army) was, who was around them , and what was going on when it happened.
The fact that all you hear now is about full amnesty and both the families of the military and civilian causalities are just going to have to let it go, shows both the UDD and PTP leadership do not want a full investigation.
There is plenty of blame for the tragedy to go around, but to deny the UDD leadership and their backers have no share of that blame is just being intentionally blind to the reality of the situation.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan now says: “The point about the virtues of action as opposed to the virtue of simply being elected is actually the point and has nothing to do with whether Thakisn is like Hitler or not. In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… ”
Sure, I can ignore high school historical clangers, and can accept that you seem unable to tell an election from a coup.
But on the 1933 election, do have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933. Context matters.
Cambodian American exiles won’t meet Obama
The diaspora Cambodian and Southeast Asian communities in U.S. responded with how disappointed they are when Studio Revolt’s submission was not selected. Please see the link and a passage from the public statement below…
THIS IS WHY WE’RE ANGRY: A Call to Action
A Statement from Southeast Asian American Community Groups
http://www.onelovemovement.com/blog/2012/04/24/this-is-why-were-angry-a-call-to-action/
“The community and the country watched and voted, and “My Asian Americana” went viral and was viewed by thousands of people! We were thrilled. We knew a presentation at the White House would not solve the problem of deportation. But it would be a step in this long haul movement. However, Studio Revolt was not invited to the White House as one of the 9 out of 11 chosen groups, despite clear and massive public support. Our families, our communities, our pain, was silenced again.”
Why Singapore government become like that?
Sure nice to be able to complain about the myriad of short coming of a SEA government that is comparable to Switzerland.
A government that planned and provide it Citizenry with Cradle to Grave services.
Short comings so minor that can never be fathom as any significance in countries like Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar.
At least in the case of Myanmar—– Not yet.
Booming Burma
Thanks Stephen.
I find that roughly translated ” the best (workers ) democratic union is the lu-gyi-less ( no one to give about orders) one” to be so true.
Sadly the most celebrated “democratic one” in Burma (NLD) seems total opposite.
It bis true that people in unison can do horribly wrong things. Like the newspaper heading of second election of George W Bush “How can 31 million people get wrong?”
But the treatment for it in a democratic sense or the cause of it is simply manipulation of information, that’s where the election war chest comes in It was not because people feel the same with GW Bush as seen only a short 3 years later.
In Burma today at the time of intense necessity, true information, unbiased analysis and most of all inclusive discussion, debate and canvassing of people’s opinion are TOTALLY NON-EXISTENT.
And for the rest of world to applaud it as “democracy” is patronising at best (these Burmese should be grateful to get this much opening) or evil at worst (when they open up, before they realise it, lets go in and plunder).
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Surprised that there is no comment about the irony of a mass Thai political rally in a town whose name is roughly translated as “defeat of Siam”.
It is difficult to understand without context, but it is somewhat disturbing that they seem to be paying special reverence to Kali. Rah, rah for death and destruction. Perhaps this is in line with Jatuporn’s alleged Mark/Thep Taug death wish (BTW suspect the feeling is mutual). Anyway I’m sure this was all light hearted jest in the name of reconciliation.
Anyway it is quite amusing to see a Uni from a US satellite/puppet state is so self confident that it can pontificate on the affairs of the world’s most populist region.
If I were in OZ, I may think a little more about why our head of state is an English woman of German descent or why we are hosting a permanent USMC base.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
And John, just to add….
“And Thatcher was eventually forced out by her own party after the Poll Tax riots. What would’ve been a better solution? A military coup in both UK and USA”
She was…. I was there covering it for the Observer newspaper….. And nor was it any solution in Thailand in 2006 (although it’s a pretty shaky parallel to be fair). When Thakisn first became PM he was widely backed across the social spectrum (including amongst more affluent sectors of Bangkokians) and by 2006 was widely loathed by the exact same people once they saw he was not a ‘new broom’ but just another lying business man and deal maker snout-in-trough, the Temasak deal really showing where his priorities lay, although it was already clear….. Many Thai people, especially those who had supported hin as a conduit to more modern and fairer governance rather than just a PM who ran programs they felt alleviated their dire poverty, saw through him…. The coup set back everything and gave him the perfect vehicle to become the utterly fraudulent ‘people’s hero’ – a card he play so cynically to this day in order to advance the his business/political interests.
When Thaksin comes home
#56 Nick..
“And back to the Thaksin issue – what is your alternative? That people just stop campaigning, and put their trust into the same old system that they were so disappointed in that they voted for Thaksin in the first place, warts and all”
I think Thaksin is VERY much part of the old system… He has just spruced up the marketing. All factions understand how they increase leverage…. And of course winning repeated elections gives him immense leverage and I am sure that has been reflected in any rejigged deals he has with the other powerful factions and families who are all playing the same game.
“Why not let Thais decide over their own future, make their own mistakes, and this way develop themselves? ”
On this we are agreed and nor is there any alternative other than the ones you outline which are all even worse…. Thais are between a rock and hard place at the moment and many know it. They have the power to vote sometimes, but few or o half decent or honourable politicains to vote for….. I hear this all over the country except the heartland Red areas and even in those provinces many who arn’t Thaksin dazzled see the choice often as the better of two evils. They are weary of these corrupt pariahs…..
“Thaksin is just part of Thailand’s process of development – no more, no less. Again, as you are so unhappy about, and vehemently against this Red/Yellow conflict – what is your alternative? What shall Thais do?”
That is exactly my point….. Their choices are mainly rotten and essentially add up to a choice of gangsters, oligarchs and generals…. All of whom are pretty much in the same business?….. Thaksin or Sonthi?….. I can’t tell them apart…… The Surat mafia boss, Suthep or the Buriram mafia boss Newin?….. Peas in a pod.
“Do i detect a slight longing for days of the empire on which the sun never sets?”
Well as the Persians used to say, “the Sun never sets on the British Empire because no one trusts an Englishman in the Dark”…. I digress….. My point about Germany was about the development of the Nation state in Europe as a whole and indeed the scramble for empire and the global horror of World War 1…. A war without meaning.
“Is Thaksin that “bad”? Thaksin the impaler?
Why not Genghis Khan? Nero? Caligula?”
Indeed!…. Why not?….
“What about Charlemagne?”
My knowledge of the Dark Ages are exactly that….. Dark….. So I can’t answer that one.
Booming Burma
In that case Ohn here are my own tangentially related thoughts.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
John Smith #24
You huge flocks of John Smiths are confusing me!….
“And no, despite all those clever PAD posters, Thaksin is not a Hitler.”
Of course not. He is a brutal serial rights abuser….. But to equate him with Adolf Hitler is absurd and symptomatic of idiotic PAD hatespeak (the kind idiotic hatespeak that was also blasting 24 hour from the UDD stage at Rajaprasong…. They both use the same incipient fascist methods of rabble rousing and brainwashing with vitriol). … The point about the virtues of action as opposed to the virtue of simply being elected is actually the point and has nothing to do with whether Thakisn is like Hitler or not. In 1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting and Hitler was thus able to pass the enabling act that put them into power…… So…. I am sorry about that Mrs and Mrs Blumnthal!…. Don’t look so glum!….. You will actually be ‘democratically’ gassed if that gives you and all the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, leftists and mentally handicapped any comfort. … Its the peoples choice you know.
#28 John inbkk….”The PAD have made a concerted effort to discredit all tenants of democracy.”…..
Indeed they have. Largely because no one would vote for them if they fielded candidates and they have a mission to fight their increasing irrelevance with a lurch into yet ever more virulent nationalism…. And they too, like the UDD stage, use distinctly fascist methods of propagandising and hatespeak….. Nor do they have potential to be anything other than a regressive and reactionary movement unlike the UDD which does have elements that could propel them to be a truly a truly progressive force. This will never happen whist the majority of the UDD remain simply a platform for furthering the interests of ‘the boss’, Thaksin Shinawatra, and his clique….. Given the moribund, corrupt, chaotic and disdainful mess that the Democrats are, sections of the UDD dropping Thaksin is the only hope for any meaningful expectation of preventing Thailand becoming a one party state or descending into even more serious conflict than it has already undergone.
The rest of your points seem to be veering off track into an attack on the PAD, which whilst entirely justified in my view, is not really what this thread is about from what I can tell….. Nor is Godwin’s law of any interest…. There are two many parallels with unrest and the growth of fascism in Europe in the 1930s for it not to come up….. Especially in a debate where people claim that the fact that someone has won an election makes it wrong to question their motives, actions or politics….
Thaksin has proven again and again that his repeated election wins give him the right to trample the institutions, have people murdered at will without arrest or trial and plunder the nations wealth….. That is distinctly counter productive and anti democratic view. His repeated elections wins did not and do not give him these rights any more than they would to the democrats in the unlikely event they managed to win an election. The present government of Thailand in the shape of Thaksin nominees and the old gangster faces of people like Chalerm and and Banharn is deeply questionable and there is no effective opposition because the Dems are no better. Democracy cannot work without effective dissent and a genuine choice and since the political culture of Thailand is so incredibly corrupt and Peua Thai are the only show in town, democracy as a reality remains elusive despite the fact that people get to cast a vote every now and then for any one or other of the gangsters and feudal family candidates on offer…… Thonburia, Supan, Buriram, Surat… It doesn’t matter which party these feudal strongmen are in… They represent the system and Thaksin is simply just one of them doing the same business in the same way, but with slightly upgraded PR tricks that work.