“The problem is who do you vote for if you want democracy . . .” Nobby (#10)
That’s a good question. When Thais vote, do they even think of democracy, I must wonder?
My opinion: The paramount Thai concern when they vote, under current very tense circumstances, is how their vote will remove or undo any perceived threats to their situation. I consider Thaksin and his deadly political machinations to be a serious threat to me and Thailand’s well-being. Thus Thaksin’s PTP party & friends will never get my vote.
Dan: you might read Vichai’s comment. He displays a sense of humor in these matters. Unlike you, Vichai grasped the basic point suggesting a considerable intelligence and self awareness.
Oh Dan, you seem to have missed the point and instead engaged in a tirade on something I wasn’t even commenting on. How silly and how lacking in humor.
OK Jason it’s a fair enough comment you make in reply……traveling by motorbike certainly beats the living daylights out of traveling in some 4WD Toyota Landcruiser that actually pisses most people off when they are convey international “experts” up narrow village roads and then these experts complain that villagers don’t maintain the said roads. Your footprint is much less intrusive than that of such people, including myself although even when on one of these so-called expert assignments I often use a motorbike much to the dismay (and often disgust) of “‘experts” and officials alike. I also use boats – at least during the wet season – when I can although until recent this was quite a problematic way to travel especially in rivers contiguous to forest concessions……
“Were armed ‘black clad ninjas’ taking orders from the Red Shirt leaders?” Nostitz prudently decline to answer or comment.
But perhaps Nostitz does not need to. After all it is common public knowledge (thru reports from The Wall Street Journal and NY Times) that the Red/Black Shirts violence were directed by the late Gen. Khattiya, who confessed that he reported only directly to Thaksin and no other. Nostitz own admission that ‘armed black clad ninjas’ were freely mingling (meaning singing, laughing, eating and fighting together) with the Red Shirts must mean Thaksin/Khattiya ordered it so.
Now that is an important point and people should NOT forget that the violence, deaths, maimings, bombings and rampant arson/torching during May2010 was being directed by the Red Shirt leadership. There certainly was butchery during May2010 at Bangkok and I am inclined to point the fingers at Dubai as the primary source/instigator of the butchery.
I agree with much of what you say. I would certainly agree with you that there is not really any difference between a man like Chalerm and a man like Suthep…. We have been through all this before….. One very important point though is that periods of transformation do not always have a positive outcome….. Look at the French Revolution… It didn’t turn up liberty, it turned up a brand new despot named Napoleon Bonaparte and it took 15 years and untold misery before he was finally winkled out (for the second time) by Wellington and Blucher at the Battle of Waterloo (or Mon Saint Jean to the French) in 1815 and exiled to St Helena which was a lot further away than Elba…. Thaksin is very similar in character to Napoleon Bonaparte and he engenders a very similar loyalty as despots are occasionally won’t to do…. Even elected ones such as Thaksin Shinawatra…. There is such a thing as an elective autocracy…. Loathing is a very reasonable human reaction when faced with murderers and despots. I also agree with you that there are thinking people amongst the red shirts who see through Thaksin and have worthy aims. I wish them well. The problem is that, as I think you will agree, they are vastly outnumbered by the Thakisn loving throng who you have just been documenting in your normal thorough and engaging style.
“Its far easier, after all, than addressing the reality of who the Red Shirt leadership put into power and how…”
Thai politics are very complicated. I can only state that the ordinary Red Shirts are quite aware of these complications, especially that Thai society and politics is still in a process of transformation, and that certain uncomfortable compromises are unfortunate part of this game. As you mentioned Chalerm, here in this article i have written briefly about how some Red Shirts feel about him:
I would also suggest to have a look at politicians such as Suthep and Nevin on the other side, also the many local godfather who run under the Democrat Party banner. While well spoken Abhisit is the nice face of the Democrat Party, there is also another side to this. As you know quite well.
The Red Shirt leadership is also quite complex, made up of people of varied backgrounds, and there is not just one opinion on the issues you mention, and how to handle these structural problems of this society, or on the strategies to employ on how to reach their lofty goal of a more democratic Thailand.
While it is quite easy to vent one’s disappointment by loathing this or the other side, i think it is of more importance to accept that Thailand is in a historical period of transformation and development – which is an ongoing process – and to learn the intricacies of this fascinating period of time.
If you look at somewhat similar periods in other societies, you can also see that this was never a clean and romantic struggle of good against evil. While, for example, Martin Luther in his reformation tried to reform the catholic church – a rather lofty goal, he has also written some of vilest antisemitic pamphlets ever.
In Germany’s 1848 revolution initially you had a common agreement to have a parliament, only then things collapsed when radicals and reformers could not agree, and even fought with each other, giving the aristocratic establishment the space to destroy them all.
etc.
What i try to say here is that the current situation is in the context of enormous transformations in Thai history far beyond this or the other personality involved on this or the other side. If this will lead to more democratization, or to a huge mess, or will be a failed attempt – we do not know yet.
What though we can say is that it is a necessary conflict, and inevitable. It had to happen, and i would suggest to live with it. Loathing it won’t help you. 😉
#7 “Goodness me Vichai! You mean those hopelessly duped and/or paid red shirts somehow managed to vote for another party? Miraculous transformations underway!”
My word, Ralph, but you are a one trick pony when it comes to clumsy sarcasm…… Your comments seem to be devoid of any actual content…. It’s quite a talent.
#1 CT “They have struggled to find the right person who will bring true democracy to their country. But that person has never appeared.”
That is called the sound of a penny dropping…. Something long overdue at New Mandala.
To answer your question, I’ve traveled independently in every province of Cambodia over the last decade, mostly by motorbike. I can speak rudimentary Khmer, but am by no means fluent. I know and am friends with a lot of Khmers of all classes as well as a lot of longtime expat residents, both from the NGO and business communities. Several of them recommended the book to me.
I’ve read just about everything by Chandler and Vickery, so it’s not as if this book alone has shaped my views, and Chandler himself praised Cambodia’s Curse. I didn’t and would never suggest that things now aren’t an improvement over the Khmer Rouge years — but just about anything would be an improvement, for Pete’s sake. I merely stated my opinion that Brinkley was quite fair in his assessment of the state of affairs in Cambodia, and trust me there are plenty of Khmers who’d agree.
#39 “But I guess all those going to Cambodia were paid dupes, whereas those going to see Abhisit were well-educated and thinking types.”
Er… Really?…. What a piece of simplistic and idiotic rhetoric. Have you ever been to Toscana Valley in Khao Yai?…. Do you know just how the elite leadership of the Red Shirt movement works? They are the elites. Do you understand that money really does talk? Do you understand the cynical brutality of a man like Chalermeone Yubamrung? This was a man who was lined up for government office throughout the Red shirt occupation of Bangkok…. Yet now worthy commentators like Ji call him a ‘gangster politician’ and say he was never a Red Shirt etc…. Well the Red Shirts put him there and he is planning to kill people. Killing people is a popular political move in Thailand…. Why didn’t they address the issue of who their brutal and violent acts were going to put into power?…. Banharn…. Chalerm…. Thaksin in drag….. All the same cynical and vicious old faces…. It’s hardly a fresh start is it?….. But Ralph…. Why don’t you continue to propagate simplistic myth and dozy propaganda with a hint of vitriol?…. Its far easier, after all, than addressing the reality of who the Red Shirt leadership put into power and how…
“Were armed ‘black clad ninjas’ freely mixing it up with the Red Shirts during the Year 2010 mayhems? Nostitz almost grudgingly admitted ‘yes’, then ceased making further comments. ”
No – i did not “grudgingly admit” to this. I have without any grudge stated already during the May 2010 events that i have ran into armed militants in the Red Shirts, if you go back to one of the comments in the killing zone story.
And furthermore, i have on several occasions in public also, without any grudge, confirmed their existence, such as in a public meeting of the TRCT.
I will make further comments when i have finished investigating this issue. But i will do this only in proper context, and not to satisfy certain partisan agendas. Which means – this issue will be part of a book i am working on.
Nostitz’ photos are remarkably revealing: you could see first their undisguised anticipation while in the coach, then their honest-to-goodness rapture when their Beloved Leader made his appearance, and the pandemium to hug and get close to their Beloved Leader.
Paid (Kamden#7) or not, everyone (the payor and payees) got their money’s worth me thinks.
Makes me wonder perhaps the Democrats were buying votes in Pathumthani to explain Thaksin’s party’s loss? (ha ha)
The problem is who do you vote for if you want democracy, certainly not the Democrat Party and certainly not for Thaksin parties. Are there any true democrats in Thailand?
Many people have replaced God Bhumipol with God Thaksin. When everyone realizes neither of them is a God we can move on.
[…] be interested in Nick Nostitz’s account of his journey to Cambodia with red shirts. It is at New Mandala, with some excellent pictures. The relevant parts of that report relate to: lese majeste, where […]
[…] be interested in Nick Nostitz’s account of his journey to Cambodia with red shirts. It is at New Mandala, with some excellent pictures. The relevant parts of that report relate to: lese majeste, where […]
Goodness me Vichai! You mean those hopelessly duped and/or paid red shirts somehow managed to vote for another party? Miraculous transformations underway!
I recall going down to Ratchaprasong to see Abhisit and his party during the election campaign. Not many managed to show up there. Not nearly as many who went to view Thaksin in Cambodia. But I guess all those going to Cambodia were paid dupes, whereas those going to see Abhisit were well-educated and thinking types.
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Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
“The problem is who do you vote for if you want democracy . . .” Nobby (#10)
That’s a good question. When Thais vote, do they even think of democracy, I must wonder?
My opinion: The paramount Thai concern when they vote, under current very tense circumstances, is how their vote will remove or undo any perceived threats to their situation. I consider Thaksin and his deadly political machinations to be a serious threat to me and Thailand’s well-being. Thus Thaksin’s PTP party & friends will never get my vote.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan: you might read Vichai’s comment. He displays a sense of humor in these matters. Unlike you, Vichai grasped the basic point suggesting a considerable intelligence and self awareness.
When Thaksin comes home
Oh Dan, you seem to have missed the point and instead engaged in a tirade on something I wasn’t even commenting on. How silly and how lacking in humor.
When Thaksin comes home
On the bright side, it’s a slight improvement to have one’s despot elected, rather than installed or appointed.
Baby steps 🙂
Review of Cambodia’s Curse
OK Jason it’s a fair enough comment you make in reply……traveling by motorbike certainly beats the living daylights out of traveling in some 4WD Toyota Landcruiser that actually pisses most people off when they are convey international “experts” up narrow village roads and then these experts complain that villagers don’t maintain the said roads. Your footprint is much less intrusive than that of such people, including myself although even when on one of these so-called expert assignments I often use a motorbike much to the dismay (and often disgust) of “‘experts” and officials alike. I also use boats – at least during the wet season – when I can although until recent this was quite a problematic way to travel especially in rivers contiguous to forest concessions……
When Thaksin comes home
“Were armed ‘black clad ninjas’ taking orders from the Red Shirt leaders?” Nostitz prudently decline to answer or comment.
But perhaps Nostitz does not need to. After all it is common public knowledge (thru reports from The Wall Street Journal and NY Times) that the Red/Black Shirts violence were directed by the late Gen. Khattiya, who confessed that he reported only directly to Thaksin and no other. Nostitz own admission that ‘armed black clad ninjas’ were freely mingling (meaning singing, laughing, eating and fighting together) with the Red Shirts must mean Thaksin/Khattiya ordered it so.
Now that is an important point and people should NOT forget that the violence, deaths, maimings, bombings and rampant arson/torching during May2010 was being directed by the Red Shirt leadership. There certainly was butchery during May2010 at Bangkok and I am inclined to point the fingers at Dubai as the primary source/instigator of the butchery.
When Thaksin comes home
#42 Nick
I agree with much of what you say. I would certainly agree with you that there is not really any difference between a man like Chalerm and a man like Suthep…. We have been through all this before….. One very important point though is that periods of transformation do not always have a positive outcome….. Look at the French Revolution… It didn’t turn up liberty, it turned up a brand new despot named Napoleon Bonaparte and it took 15 years and untold misery before he was finally winkled out (for the second time) by Wellington and Blucher at the Battle of Waterloo (or Mon Saint Jean to the French) in 1815 and exiled to St Helena which was a lot further away than Elba…. Thaksin is very similar in character to Napoleon Bonaparte and he engenders a very similar loyalty as despots are occasionally won’t to do…. Even elected ones such as Thaksin Shinawatra…. There is such a thing as an elective autocracy…. Loathing is a very reasonable human reaction when faced with murderers and despots. I also agree with you that there are thinking people amongst the red shirts who see through Thaksin and have worthy aims. I wish them well. The problem is that, as I think you will agree, they are vastly outnumbered by the Thakisn loving throng who you have just been documenting in your normal thorough and engaging style.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
At this point I have nothing more to say than the reconciliation is pointless and amnesty immoral. Royal Decree? A kiss of death.
When Thaksin comes home
“Dan”:
“Its far easier, after all, than addressing the reality of who the Red Shirt leadership put into power and how…”
Thai politics are very complicated. I can only state that the ordinary Red Shirts are quite aware of these complications, especially that Thai society and politics is still in a process of transformation, and that certain uncomfortable compromises are unfortunate part of this game. As you mentioned Chalerm, here in this article i have written briefly about how some Red Shirts feel about him:
http://www.newmandala.org/2012/04/10/a-red-shirt-songkran-party-and-amnesty-thoughts/
I would also suggest to have a look at politicians such as Suthep and Nevin on the other side, also the many local godfather who run under the Democrat Party banner. While well spoken Abhisit is the nice face of the Democrat Party, there is also another side to this. As you know quite well.
The Red Shirt leadership is also quite complex, made up of people of varied backgrounds, and there is not just one opinion on the issues you mention, and how to handle these structural problems of this society, or on the strategies to employ on how to reach their lofty goal of a more democratic Thailand.
While it is quite easy to vent one’s disappointment by loathing this or the other side, i think it is of more importance to accept that Thailand is in a historical period of transformation and development – which is an ongoing process – and to learn the intricacies of this fascinating period of time.
If you look at somewhat similar periods in other societies, you can also see that this was never a clean and romantic struggle of good against evil. While, for example, Martin Luther in his reformation tried to reform the catholic church – a rather lofty goal, he has also written some of vilest antisemitic pamphlets ever.
In Germany’s 1848 revolution initially you had a common agreement to have a parliament, only then things collapsed when radicals and reformers could not agree, and even fought with each other, giving the aristocratic establishment the space to destroy them all.
etc.
What i try to say here is that the current situation is in the context of enormous transformations in Thai history far beyond this or the other personality involved on this or the other side. If this will lead to more democratization, or to a huge mess, or will be a failed attempt – we do not know yet.
What though we can say is that it is a necessary conflict, and inevitable. It had to happen, and i would suggest to live with it. Loathing it won’t help you. 😉
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#7 “Goodness me Vichai! You mean those hopelessly duped and/or paid red shirts somehow managed to vote for another party? Miraculous transformations underway!”
My word, Ralph, but you are a one trick pony when it comes to clumsy sarcasm…… Your comments seem to be devoid of any actual content…. It’s quite a talent.
#1 CT “They have struggled to find the right person who will bring true democracy to their country. But that person has never appeared.”
That is called the sound of a penny dropping…. Something long overdue at New Mandala.
Review of Cambodia’s Curse
To answer your question, I’ve traveled independently in every province of Cambodia over the last decade, mostly by motorbike. I can speak rudimentary Khmer, but am by no means fluent. I know and am friends with a lot of Khmers of all classes as well as a lot of longtime expat residents, both from the NGO and business communities. Several of them recommended the book to me.
I’ve read just about everything by Chandler and Vickery, so it’s not as if this book alone has shaped my views, and Chandler himself praised Cambodia’s Curse. I didn’t and would never suggest that things now aren’t an improvement over the Khmer Rouge years — but just about anything would be an improvement, for Pete’s sake. I merely stated my opinion that Brinkley was quite fair in his assessment of the state of affairs in Cambodia, and trust me there are plenty of Khmers who’d agree.
When Thaksin comes home
#39 “But I guess all those going to Cambodia were paid dupes, whereas those going to see Abhisit were well-educated and thinking types.”
Er… Really?…. What a piece of simplistic and idiotic rhetoric. Have you ever been to Toscana Valley in Khao Yai?…. Do you know just how the elite leadership of the Red Shirt movement works? They are the elites. Do you understand that money really does talk? Do you understand the cynical brutality of a man like Chalermeone Yubamrung? This was a man who was lined up for government office throughout the Red shirt occupation of Bangkok…. Yet now worthy commentators like Ji call him a ‘gangster politician’ and say he was never a Red Shirt etc…. Well the Red Shirts put him there and he is planning to kill people. Killing people is a popular political move in Thailand…. Why didn’t they address the issue of who their brutal and violent acts were going to put into power?…. Banharn…. Chalerm…. Thaksin in drag….. All the same cynical and vicious old faces…. It’s hardly a fresh start is it?….. But Ralph…. Why don’t you continue to propagate simplistic myth and dozy propaganda with a hint of vitriol?…. Its far easier, after all, than addressing the reality of who the Red Shirt leadership put into power and how…
When Thaksin comes home
“Vichai N”:
“Were armed ‘black clad ninjas’ freely mixing it up with the Red Shirts during the Year 2010 mayhems? Nostitz almost grudgingly admitted ‘yes’, then ceased making further comments. ”
No – i did not “grudgingly admit” to this. I have without any grudge stated already during the May 2010 events that i have ran into armed militants in the Red Shirts, if you go back to one of the comments in the killing zone story.
And furthermore, i have on several occasions in public also, without any grudge, confirmed their existence, such as in a public meeting of the TRCT.
I will make further comments when i have finished investigating this issue. But i will do this only in proper context, and not to satisfy certain partisan agendas. Which means – this issue will be part of a book i am working on.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Nostitz’ photos are remarkably revealing: you could see first their undisguised anticipation while in the coach, then their honest-to-goodness rapture when their Beloved Leader made his appearance, and the pandemium to hug and get close to their Beloved Leader.
Paid (Kamden#7) or not, everyone (the payor and payees) got their money’s worth me thinks.
Makes me wonder perhaps the Democrats were buying votes in Pathumthani to explain Thaksin’s party’s loss? (ha ha)
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Vichai N @ 3
The problem is who do you vote for if you want democracy, certainly not the Democrat Party and certainly not for Thaksin parties. Are there any true democrats in Thailand?
Many people have replaced God Bhumipol with God Thaksin. When everyone realizes neither of them is a God we can move on.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
[…] be interested in Nick Nostitz’s account of his journey to Cambodia with red shirts. It is at New Mandala, with some excellent pictures. The relevant parts of that report relate to: lese majeste, where […]
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
[…] be interested in Nick Nostitz’s account of his journey to Cambodia with red shirts. It is at New Mandala, with some excellent pictures. The relevant parts of that report relate to: lese majeste, where […]
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Goodness me Vichai! You mean those hopelessly duped and/or paid red shirts somehow managed to vote for another party? Miraculous transformations underway!
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
This is a great report…thank you for your hard work and attention to detail, Nick……
When Thaksin comes home
I recall going down to Ratchaprasong to see Abhisit and his party during the election campaign. Not many managed to show up there. Not nearly as many who went to view Thaksin in Cambodia. But I guess all those going to Cambodia were paid dupes, whereas those going to see Abhisit were well-educated and thinking types.