plan B surely deserves a medal for asserting that “#3 The West useless careless vilification and threat is the primary inducer of this military government paranoia and thus the resulting 400,000 Tamadaw(sic)”.
Yeah right, they must be busy getting ready for an invasion all these decades of the marines storming up the Hlaing River in their landing craft or dropping from the helos.
Naturally an exodus of present enlistee(sic)/conscripts from the Tatmadaw must be as straightforward as leaving the Sangha.
He typically overlooks the plight of the ethnic minorities and the ongoing civil wars flaring up or smouldering since independence. Tom Andrews in The Washington Post argues it would be a mistake lifting the sanctions :
Without question, Aung San Suu Kyi’s election to the Burmese parliament is a remarkable achievement. But what I have seen this week reminds me that it is only part of the story. The other part, hidden in the mountains and valleys of Kachin state and in villages of other ethnic minorities, is vastly different. It is one that Burma’s military-dominated government does not want you to see.
It is reasonable for the United States and the international community to recognize what progress has been made in Burma with measured, prudent (and reversible) rewards. But relaxing all sanctions and international pressure on this regime would be a serious mistake.
Progress did not occur in Burma because military leaders suddenly realized that they had erred. It came about precisely because of international pressure. To remove this pressure at a time when the Burmese government escalates its brutality against a long-suffering people would be unconscionable and should be unacceptable to the United States.
His and Derek Tonkin’s prayers have been answered as it’s only a matter of time before the sanctions are comprehensively lifted. After all Western govts never lose sight of the interests of Big Business.
“I have become so tired of everyone, including many of the Bangkok middle class who told me that the Red Shirts were not loyal to the king and that they were disrespectful to the king etc.”
You should not have asked them for “evidence” but inquire why the Red Shirts’ alledged lack of loyalty and respect were deemed to be issues at all. To put it another way, why was it that the Red Shirts were supposed to be loyal and respectful to the king?
“It’s my belief that this concept of a virtuous king presiding over Thailand is not only central to who the Thai people are, but something they love, and most importantly need.” Which begs the question of how this piece of official propaganda has found its way into the mental set-up of a Westener from a country that does not have a king.
There are a couple of memorials to Souphanouvong, one in Vientiane and another in Thakhaek. The statue in Thakhaek is quite impressive for its design and location (overlooking the limestone karsts). The memorial residence in Vientiane is less eye-catching. I understand there are plans to revamp the Viengxay residence of Souphanouvong, but I don’t know if that includes statues or bronze busts in revolutionary pose. Souphanouvong was definitely more photogenic than Kaysone. The bronze images of Souphanouvong also depict a better resemblance when compared to those of Kaysone which make him too thin or too fat. In his lifetime Souphanouvong was well aware of the power of image. He always took advantage of a good photo opportunity. With regards to displays of public affection, neither
figure attracts a lot these days. The younger generation need to see a high definition digital version of Souphanouvong/Kaysone striding through the liberated zone to catch their attention. Kaysone is in the people’s mind due to the fact that his portrait is on the kip notes. If he wasn’t represented on the national currency many people would quickly forget him, along with Nouhak, Sisomphone and Phoumi.
Why do you take such a confrontational view in this matter? It not only creates ill-will, it would most likely negate any good points in the preaching of your religion. All religions, as most do, should just preach the doctrine of their beliefs and leave it to the people to believe or not. If we were to condemn other religions to obtain points for our own, it indicates a lack of faith.
Regarding the Allah issue, just because you use it as a pronoun to call your one and only God, you cannot claim ownership of the word. It is no doubt ideal for Muslims, but it is not possible in this case as other people have been using the word for ages even before the advent of Islam. Just as you would know the Prophet Muhammad from the many Muhammads you know, you should also be able to differentiate between your Allah and the Christian’s.
Further, the 10% Christians would be more uncomfortable about being proselytised by the 60% Muslims with so many mosques proclaiming everyday the name of Allah. But, they have no issue with it as they have faith in their adherents knowing the difference.
Finally, religion is supposed to bring one peace, harmony and higher awareness and spirituality. If we cannot resolve the controversial issues, we have to agree to disagree and move on. “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion” (S.109:6) should be adopted.
Marathon @30: ‘Nick, what exactly were these “insults” in this graffiti?’
I remember this very well, as there were photos of the graffiti online when it occurred. It was, as Nick said, on the construction barrier at Central World. I don’t remember special words, but it was clearly insults.
“Nick, what exactly were these “insults” in this graffiti?”
They were quite shocking. Repeating the content though would break the laws.
Thailand’s social and political landscape is changing rapidly. This change though is naturally not yet reflected in any media, even not in Red Shirt medias.
I do not shy away from the subject of the monarchy when i discuss Thai politics. The subject may be sensitive, but that doesn’t mean that it cannot and should not be discussed. How can i find out the feelings of people towards their monarchy when i am to0 scared to discuss the subject with them?
And regarding European history – i do find that many speeches on Red Shirt stages reflect aspirations and demands that are quite similar to the demands in Europe in the different revolutionary/reformist movements such as the 1848 revolutions and similar. And much of the argumentation against these demands are again quite similar to how the establishment then in Europe defined itself against these revolutionary/reformist movements.
Just my impressions that’s all. I don’t claim I know what all Thais think. And impressions are all we can go on because surveys can’t be conducted on such sensitive issues…
Very interesting debate. With regards to the average Thai’s attitude towards the monarchy, will the love of the ‘father figure’ diminish upon the present king’s demise. I very much think that it will.
look, most thais, including red shirts don’t care if the king killed his brother or not and that isn’t the source of the present anger against the monarchy.
that anger stems from the queen backing the PAD and from the king’s complete ambivalence when the thai army was shooting people in 2010.
did bhumibol kill his brother? impossible to prove either way and even if it were proved it is highly unlikely it was murder (the three who were hung later is a different matter and those deaths must be construed as the most vile kind of state conspiracy).
did the thai army kill people in 2010? without any hesitation the answer is yes, with most of that very likely to be murder.
the thai people know their priorities. shame andrew marshall and new mandala are at cross purposes with that.
Point taken. People in Yangon airport looking a lot like Thais nowadays except for a good proportion of them still wearing longyis and women with thanaka on their face. I remain convinced the Burmese will make it look different in the end.
Since the ownership of the old name Suvunnabhumi (Golden Land) has been disputed and ‘misappropriated’ by some of the neighbours I reckon the B word or the M word will persist. Definitely not something similarly retrogressive like Naypyidaw.
Many of us especially the minorities see the Republic of the Union of Myanmar as a RUM deal. The Union of Burma did last 14 years (1948-1962) until our ethnic brethren began to lose faith completely in the Socialist govt of U Nu. Ne Win then staged a coup and reneged on Panglong. It has remained a four letter word in the military dominated govt circles to this day.
Remember how ASSK dropped the call for a second Panglong like a hot potato after embracing it initially. Now she has taken some tentative steps towards including the armed groups the KIO and the KNU in the national reconciliation process taking advantage of the regime’s new found permissiveness in return for lifting the sanctions. When, not if, this is going to hit the buffers, as the regime proscribes dialogue and considers certain things non-negotiable, we shall find out soon enough.
I have become so tired of everyone, including many of the Bangkok middle class who told me that the Red Shirts were not loyal to the king and that they were disrespectful to the king etc. I always wanted evidence. I always wanted to see the writing, the graffiti, hear a speech. Such evidence has been very difficult to come by.
Nick, what exactly were these “insults” in this graffiti?
This chanting at the protests I assumed when I first read about it was against Abhisit or Prem or at worst, the queen.
I have been to the provinces and I’ll be heading out again this week to discuss opinions about Thailand. I’ve spoken to a wide range of Thais across the political spectrum over the years from PAD types to standard middle class to red shirts, educated and uneducated. It’s been interesting to say the least.
I don’t get into many discussions about the monarchy because it’s such a sensitive issue. But there have been a few experiences that have been quite telling. I once asked a taxi cab driver what he thought about the king. I asked him only because you yourself had mentioned how things were changing on some post. I’ll never forget it. He looks at me in the rear view mirror and asks with a cold suspicion, “What king?”
“The current one,” I answered.
“I don’t have an opinion,” he answered, but the look he gave me sent a cold shiver through my spine. I had transgressed into an area that I had no business getting into.
Another time I made a statement about the politics of the protests to the mother of a friend of mine as she was cutting rice in a field up in Isan. She responded matter of factly not even looking up, “Farangs don’t understand the monarchy,” as she continued to work.
At one of the Red Shirt protests this middle aged farmer with leathery skin yell to me that they needed the king to protect them from the generals.
I’ve been in barber shops where red shirt regalia was everywhere with Jatuporn singing karaoke between speeches on TV and everywhere on the walls were pictures of all the kings.
The king here in Thailand is the highest of high and will not be touched. For the most part this is what I have heard and felt all the time I have been here. Reform of the monarchy? Sure. Even among the middle class there is much support for this, with yellow shirts too. And this is good news.
It’s my belief that this concept of a virtuous king presiding over Thailand is not only central to who the Thai people are, but something they love, and most importantly need. This society is based on higher and lower and most Thais believe that everything would simply be better with a sacred person at the very top.
Thailand is not Europe. We’re talking about vastly different universes in my opinion.
Just my impressions and certainly would never think I speak for all Thais. Just would I have seen and heard. And I remain open to change as always. And no bias here because I come from a nation with no monarchy at all.
You certainly have the liberty to take potshot at Christianity saying that Christians assert tri-theism in contradiction to the monotheistic affirmation found in the Bible.
However, if you are serious in studying the earliest Christians’ grappling with this issue, I would suggest that you engage serious scholarship rather than throwing potshots.
If you are interested, you can start with the widely regarded works done by Larry Hurtado, Emeritus Professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology at Edinburgh University.
On the concept of ‘God’ in the New Testament, do check out his recent book ‘God in New Testament Theology’ (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2010).
On the earliest Christians’ perception on God and Jesus the messiah, do engage with his ‘Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity’ (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2003).
This is not to say that all the things Hurtado wrote must be agreeable, but just some avenues of serious scholarship that you may want to start with. Unless of course you are content with potshots.
One consistent thread of the criticism of both Handley and Marshall is that they aren’t saying anything new, that everyone knows everything they’re saying anyway, and that they’re retailing rumor and scuttlebutt.
Well maybe so although I wouldn’t know as I’m one of those who doesn’t know everything. But the big difference between them and their mostly anonymous critics is that they have been prepared to put their names and reputations behind what they say.
“How did you know they were referring to the king? I was there that evening with a bunch of red-shirt friends and I thought we were referring to Abhisit and “you know who”, but definitely not the king.”
At the same afternoon/evening also dozens if not hundreds of graffiti insulting the king and the queen were scribbled at the plastic covering of the central world construction site fence (the were gone immediately after the protesters went home). Many Red Shirts photographed them on their mobile phones and SMS’ed the imaged to friends at home.
The chants were repeated at every gathering afterwards, until Tida Tawornset became acting UDD chairwoman in early December 2010, and who held tedious negotiations with grass roots Red Shirt groups asking them to get their people to tone down the expression of these radical views, making also enemies in her own camp along the way.
I have had many chats with Red Shirts during the protests, especially whom they meant when chanting. It was not Abhisit. The second part of the chant that Andrew mentioned, makes things a lot more clear.
“Maratjp”:
“There is the official version and then there is what Thai people believe and more often than naught they do not meet. Give Thai people more credit than this everyone. Thais look at this king as a father figure. This relationship is primarily a familial one; an emotional one. Like any family with the very, very deep bond of love, family atrocities or nasty mistakes and sins are forgiven and either forgotten or simply kept under the rug. Such is life and get on with it and stop dwelling on it. We are all sinners, we are a family, we love him. Move on.”
This view may still be the majority view, but dissenting views not just under the educated left, but especially under Red Shirts in rural communities and urban labor class neighborhoods are rising rapidly. I would suggest to travel through some of the Red Shirt heartlands, gain these people’s trust, and listen what they say about this subject matter.
It is high time that the elites of both sides – the military, the opposition, and the non-Red Shirt elites of the government begin to consider what the grassroots political activists in this country feel, and how large their support is. These views cannot be expressed in the open, but they are nonetheless very strong. There will not be any lasting “reconciliation” in Thai society as long as these issues are not addressed as well.
The TRCT in its latest interim report has addressed this issue quite strongly, but as in previous reports, their suggestions will most likely be ignored again.
The by you here expressed view, under the cloak of “not being the official version”, is nothing but the “unofficial” official version on how Thai people supposedly think, and propagated by people far removed from common people. In daily reality though this is a increasingly challenged view – not by me, as i am just reporting/researching/photographing – but by more and more Thais, who may today still seem a minority (yet not tiny anymore), but, if you take the history of many European countries into account, could quite easily develop into a majority at some point in the future.
Thailand’s isn’t that different from how many European countries once were.
“When people like you react with theatrical outrage”
But doesn’t Marshall do this every single time anyone criticizes him?
Should also be said that why is it that anyone who dares criticize him is always considered either a nutter or part of the Thai state?
Marshall’s work is … well… average. I agree with the basic thrust of his position but I can’t find much new in it or which hasn’t been said before. It isn’t scholarly, it isn’t journalism, it isn’t publishable and it’s too long to consume as a blog and too overbearing to attract a new readership. Even if you do spend hours reading it you leave with the impression those were wasted hours. Particularly if you’ve already read other stuff published years ago.
I just don’t get why Marshall attracts so much attention. He is good at self-promotion, I’ll give him that, but there’s not much else to warrant my time I’m afraid.
Also why did NM publish a link to Marshall’s month old work? Most people coming here would’ve already seen it. Or have NM also succumbed to the self-promotion?
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Burma’s changing equations
plan B surely deserves a medal for asserting that “#3 The West useless careless vilification and threat is the primary inducer of this military government paranoia and thus the resulting 400,000 Tamadaw(sic)”.
Yeah right, they must be busy getting ready for an invasion all these decades of the marines storming up the Hlaing River in their landing craft or dropping from the helos.
Naturally an exodus of present enlistee(sic)/conscripts from the Tatmadaw must be as straightforward as leaving the Sangha.
He typically overlooks the plight of the ethnic minorities and the ongoing civil wars flaring up or smouldering since independence. Tom Andrews in The Washington Post argues it would be a mistake lifting the sanctions :
Without question, Aung San Suu Kyi’s election to the Burmese parliament is a remarkable achievement. But what I have seen this week reminds me that it is only part of the story. The other part, hidden in the mountains and valleys of Kachin state and in villages of other ethnic minorities, is vastly different. It is one that Burma’s military-dominated government does not want you to see.
It is reasonable for the United States and the international community to recognize what progress has been made in Burma with measured, prudent (and reversible) rewards. But relaxing all sanctions and international pressure on this regime would be a serious mistake.
Progress did not occur in Burma because military leaders suddenly realized that they had erred. It came about precisely because of international pressure. To remove this pressure at a time when the Burmese government escalates its brutality against a long-suffering people would be unconscionable and should be unacceptable to the United States.
His and Derek Tonkin’s prayers have been answered as it’s only a matter of time before the sanctions are comprehensively lifted. After all Western govts never lose sight of the interests of Big Business.
The ‘Virtuous Circle’ of Carrot & Stick Sanctions gets a more balanced treatment by The Irrawaddy.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
Maratjp #30
“I have become so tired of everyone, including many of the Bangkok middle class who told me that the Red Shirts were not loyal to the king and that they were disrespectful to the king etc.”
You should not have asked them for “evidence” but inquire why the Red Shirts’ alledged lack of loyalty and respect were deemed to be issues at all. To put it another way, why was it that the Red Shirts were supposed to be loyal and respectful to the king?
“It’s my belief that this concept of a virtuous king presiding over Thailand is not only central to who the Thai people are, but something they love, and most importantly need.” Which begs the question of how this piece of official propaganda has found its way into the mental set-up of a Westener from a country that does not have a king.
Revolutionary remains
There are a couple of memorials to Souphanouvong, one in Vientiane and another in Thakhaek. The statue in Thakhaek is quite impressive for its design and location (overlooking the limestone karsts). The memorial residence in Vientiane is less eye-catching. I understand there are plans to revamp the Viengxay residence of Souphanouvong, but I don’t know if that includes statues or bronze busts in revolutionary pose. Souphanouvong was definitely more photogenic than Kaysone. The bronze images of Souphanouvong also depict a better resemblance when compared to those of Kaysone which make him too thin or too fat. In his lifetime Souphanouvong was well aware of the power of image. He always took advantage of a good photo opportunity. With regards to displays of public affection, neither
figure attracts a lot these days. The younger generation need to see a high definition digital version of Souphanouvong/Kaysone striding through the liberated zone to catch their attention. Kaysone is in the people’s mind due to the fact that his portrait is on the kip notes. If he wasn’t represented on the national currency many people would quickly forget him, along with Nouhak, Sisomphone and Phoumi.
Islamic fundamentalists, Christian threats, Freudian slips
Dear Pak Yeh #2,
Why do you take such a confrontational view in this matter? It not only creates ill-will, it would most likely negate any good points in the preaching of your religion. All religions, as most do, should just preach the doctrine of their beliefs and leave it to the people to believe or not. If we were to condemn other religions to obtain points for our own, it indicates a lack of faith.
Regarding the Allah issue, just because you use it as a pronoun to call your one and only God, you cannot claim ownership of the word. It is no doubt ideal for Muslims, but it is not possible in this case as other people have been using the word for ages even before the advent of Islam. Just as you would know the Prophet Muhammad from the many Muhammads you know, you should also be able to differentiate between your Allah and the Christian’s.
Further, the 10% Christians would be more uncomfortable about being proselytised by the 60% Muslims with so many mosques proclaiming everyday the name of Allah. But, they have no issue with it as they have faith in their adherents knowing the difference.
Finally, religion is supposed to bring one peace, harmony and higher awareness and spirituality. If we cannot resolve the controversial issues, we have to agree to disagree and move on. “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion” (S.109:6) should be adopted.
May you find peace.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
Maratjp, not Marathon. Damn spellchecker.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
Marathon @30: ‘Nick, what exactly were these “insults” in this graffiti?’
I remember this very well, as there were photos of the graffiti online when it occurred. It was, as Nick said, on the construction barrier at Central World. I don’t remember special words, but it was clearly insults.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
“Maratjp”:
“Nick, what exactly were these “insults” in this graffiti?”
They were quite shocking. Repeating the content though would break the laws.
Thailand’s social and political landscape is changing rapidly. This change though is naturally not yet reflected in any media, even not in Red Shirt medias.
I do not shy away from the subject of the monarchy when i discuss Thai politics. The subject may be sensitive, but that doesn’t mean that it cannot and should not be discussed. How can i find out the feelings of people towards their monarchy when i am to0 scared to discuss the subject with them?
And regarding European history – i do find that many speeches on Red Shirt stages reflect aspirations and demands that are quite similar to the demands in Europe in the different revolutionary/reformist movements such as the 1848 revolutions and similar. And much of the argumentation against these demands are again quite similar to how the establishment then in Europe defined itself against these revolutionary/reformist movements.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
Ralph,
Just my impressions that’s all. I don’t claim I know what all Thais think. And impressions are all we can go on because surveys can’t be conducted on such sensitive issues…
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
Very interesting debate. With regards to the average Thai’s attitude towards the monarchy, will the love of the ‘father figure’ diminish upon the present king’s demise. I very much think that it will.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
It is interesting to see people claiming that they know what Thais or most Thais think on certain issues where no certainty can ever be claimed.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
look, most thais, including red shirts don’t care if the king killed his brother or not and that isn’t the source of the present anger against the monarchy.
that anger stems from the queen backing the PAD and from the king’s complete ambivalence when the thai army was shooting people in 2010.
did bhumibol kill his brother? impossible to prove either way and even if it were proved it is highly unlikely it was murder (the three who were hung later is a different matter and those deaths must be construed as the most vile kind of state conspiracy).
did the thai army kill people in 2010? without any hesitation the answer is yes, with most of that very likely to be murder.
the thai people know their priorities. shame andrew marshall and new mandala are at cross purposes with that.
Don’t stand out in Thailand
Srithanonchai,
Point taken. People in Yangon airport looking a lot like Thais nowadays except for a good proportion of them still wearing longyis and women with thanaka on their face. I remain convinced the Burmese will make it look different in the end.
The end for “Burma”
Des Matthews,
Since the ownership of the old name Suvunnabhumi (Golden Land) has been disputed and ‘misappropriated’ by some of the neighbours I reckon the B word or the M word will persist. Definitely not something similarly retrogressive like Naypyidaw.
Many of us especially the minorities see the Republic of the Union of Myanmar as a RUM deal. The Union of Burma did last 14 years (1948-1962) until our ethnic brethren began to lose faith completely in the Socialist govt of U Nu. Ne Win then staged a coup and reneged on Panglong. It has remained a four letter word in the military dominated govt circles to this day.
Remember how ASSK dropped the call for a second Panglong like a hot potato after embracing it initially. Now she has taken some tentative steps towards including the armed groups the KIO and the KNU in the national reconciliation process taking advantage of the regime’s new found permissiveness in return for lifting the sanctions. When, not if, this is going to hit the buffers, as the regime proscribes dialogue and considers certain things non-negotiable, we shall find out soon enough.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
Nick,
I have become so tired of everyone, including many of the Bangkok middle class who told me that the Red Shirts were not loyal to the king and that they were disrespectful to the king etc. I always wanted evidence. I always wanted to see the writing, the graffiti, hear a speech. Such evidence has been very difficult to come by.
Nick, what exactly were these “insults” in this graffiti?
This chanting at the protests I assumed when I first read about it was against Abhisit or Prem or at worst, the queen.
I have been to the provinces and I’ll be heading out again this week to discuss opinions about Thailand. I’ve spoken to a wide range of Thais across the political spectrum over the years from PAD types to standard middle class to red shirts, educated and uneducated. It’s been interesting to say the least.
I don’t get into many discussions about the monarchy because it’s such a sensitive issue. But there have been a few experiences that have been quite telling. I once asked a taxi cab driver what he thought about the king. I asked him only because you yourself had mentioned how things were changing on some post. I’ll never forget it. He looks at me in the rear view mirror and asks with a cold suspicion, “What king?”
“The current one,” I answered.
“I don’t have an opinion,” he answered, but the look he gave me sent a cold shiver through my spine. I had transgressed into an area that I had no business getting into.
Another time I made a statement about the politics of the protests to the mother of a friend of mine as she was cutting rice in a field up in Isan. She responded matter of factly not even looking up, “Farangs don’t understand the monarchy,” as she continued to work.
At one of the Red Shirt protests this middle aged farmer with leathery skin yell to me that they needed the king to protect them from the generals.
I’ve been in barber shops where red shirt regalia was everywhere with Jatuporn singing karaoke between speeches on TV and everywhere on the walls were pictures of all the kings.
The king here in Thailand is the highest of high and will not be touched. For the most part this is what I have heard and felt all the time I have been here. Reform of the monarchy? Sure. Even among the middle class there is much support for this, with yellow shirts too. And this is good news.
It’s my belief that this concept of a virtuous king presiding over Thailand is not only central to who the Thai people are, but something they love, and most importantly need. This society is based on higher and lower and most Thais believe that everything would simply be better with a sacred person at the very top.
Thailand is not Europe. We’re talking about vastly different universes in my opinion.
Just my impressions and certainly would never think I speak for all Thais. Just would I have seen and heard. And I remain open to change as always. And no bias here because I come from a nation with no monarchy at all.
Islamic fundamentalists, Christian threats, Freudian slips
Hi Pak Yeh #2,
You certainly have the liberty to take potshot at Christianity saying that Christians assert tri-theism in contradiction to the monotheistic affirmation found in the Bible.
However, if you are serious in studying the earliest Christians’ grappling with this issue, I would suggest that you engage serious scholarship rather than throwing potshots.
If you are interested, you can start with the widely regarded works done by Larry Hurtado, Emeritus Professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology at Edinburgh University.
On the concept of ‘God’ in the New Testament, do check out his recent book ‘God in New Testament Theology’ (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 2010).
On the earliest Christians’ perception on God and Jesus the messiah, do engage with his ‘Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity’ (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2003).
This is not to say that all the things Hurtado wrote must be agreeable, but just some avenues of serious scholarship that you may want to start with. Unless of course you are content with potshots.
Peace.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
One consistent thread of the criticism of both Handley and Marshall is that they aren’t saying anything new, that everyone knows everything they’re saying anyway, and that they’re retailing rumor and scuttlebutt.
Well maybe so although I wouldn’t know as I’m one of those who doesn’t know everything. But the big difference between them and their mostly anonymous critics is that they have been prepared to put their names and reputations behind what they say.
Islamic fundamentalists, Christian threats, Freudian slips
Pak Yeh # 2
serious misuse of the words “salam / peace”
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
“Observer”:
“How did you know they were referring to the king? I was there that evening with a bunch of red-shirt friends and I thought we were referring to Abhisit and “you know who”, but definitely not the king.”
At the same afternoon/evening also dozens if not hundreds of graffiti insulting the king and the queen were scribbled at the plastic covering of the central world construction site fence (the were gone immediately after the protesters went home). Many Red Shirts photographed them on their mobile phones and SMS’ed the imaged to friends at home.
The chants were repeated at every gathering afterwards, until Tida Tawornset became acting UDD chairwoman in early December 2010, and who held tedious negotiations with grass roots Red Shirt groups asking them to get their people to tone down the expression of these radical views, making also enemies in her own camp along the way.
I have had many chats with Red Shirts during the protests, especially whom they meant when chanting. It was not Abhisit. The second part of the chant that Andrew mentioned, makes things a lot more clear.
“Maratjp”:
“There is the official version and then there is what Thai people believe and more often than naught they do not meet. Give Thai people more credit than this everyone. Thais look at this king as a father figure. This relationship is primarily a familial one; an emotional one. Like any family with the very, very deep bond of love, family atrocities or nasty mistakes and sins are forgiven and either forgotten or simply kept under the rug. Such is life and get on with it and stop dwelling on it. We are all sinners, we are a family, we love him. Move on.”
This view may still be the majority view, but dissenting views not just under the educated left, but especially under Red Shirts in rural communities and urban labor class neighborhoods are rising rapidly. I would suggest to travel through some of the Red Shirt heartlands, gain these people’s trust, and listen what they say about this subject matter.
It is high time that the elites of both sides – the military, the opposition, and the non-Red Shirt elites of the government begin to consider what the grassroots political activists in this country feel, and how large their support is. These views cannot be expressed in the open, but they are nonetheless very strong. There will not be any lasting “reconciliation” in Thai society as long as these issues are not addressed as well.
The TRCT in its latest interim report has addressed this issue quite strongly, but as in previous reports, their suggestions will most likely be ignored again.
The by you here expressed view, under the cloak of “not being the official version”, is nothing but the “unofficial” official version on how Thai people supposedly think, and propagated by people far removed from common people. In daily reality though this is a increasingly challenged view – not by me, as i am just reporting/researching/photographing – but by more and more Thais, who may today still seem a minority (yet not tiny anymore), but, if you take the history of many European countries into account, could quite easily develop into a majority at some point in the future.
Thailand’s isn’t that different from how many European countries once were.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
“When people like you react with theatrical outrage”
But doesn’t Marshall do this every single time anyone criticizes him?
Should also be said that why is it that anyone who dares criticize him is always considered either a nutter or part of the Thai state?
Marshall’s work is … well… average. I agree with the basic thrust of his position but I can’t find much new in it or which hasn’t been said before. It isn’t scholarly, it isn’t journalism, it isn’t publishable and it’s too long to consume as a blog and too overbearing to attract a new readership. Even if you do spend hours reading it you leave with the impression those were wasted hours. Particularly if you’ve already read other stuff published years ago.
I just don’t get why Marshall attracts so much attention. He is good at self-promotion, I’ll give him that, but there’s not much else to warrant my time I’m afraid.
Also why did NM publish a link to Marshall’s month old work? Most people coming here would’ve already seen it. Or have NM also succumbed to the self-promotion?
It is becoming very boring.
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
If HE is such a great father, why can’t he influence his son to be a better father to his abandoned children in America>