” . . .If judges have made a vow to work on behalf of the monarch . .”(#28)
That’s an unfactual IF and while admittedly Thai judges like Thai politicians could be bent (like in other places in the world), HMK only obliged the Thai judges to do their duty meticulously (court spokesman Sitthisak #27 Wanachakit meant well of course but has misquoted).
Define ‘Third World’ Dan D (#26). ‘Shady slim’ politicians like Thaksin and accommodating ‘coup’ opportunists will continue curse to Thai ‘democratic’ aspirations. But that said, Thailand’s economic march from developing to ‘nearly developed’ had not been interrupted. And sooner rather than later, Thailand’s continuing rapid economic development will inexorably accelerate Thai people’s demand for better government and better accountability. With economic development and political maturity will be the end of Reds and Yellows, and the Thaksins and Sonthis wannabes. And the monarchy after HMK reign will have to adapt or fade.
Secondly, Aim Simpeng, I like that you’ve tried to be optimistic, but there’s one thing that troubles me with your response. You write: “… the army has made clear in recent years that as the “protector of the nation” it has the right to shape political outcomes.” I think this deserves greater attention. Why doesn’t the threat of further military intervention in democratic process leave you less optimistic than you’ve outlined?
Thirdly, the anonymous Cambodian writer with CPP connections – I hope you are more optimistic than that. Perhaps your pessimism will bottom out and provoke a reaction? That’s something to be optimistic about!
Fourthly, Vietnam is mentioned once in Diamond’s article (the Atlantic version, at least), and Laos not at all. Perhaps inconveniences for the purposes of his good, broad overview? For Vietnam, he writes “They will gather momentum in Vietnam as it follows in China’s path of transformational (even if not quite as rapid) economic development.” Will it? I think it’s a bit myopic to suggest Vietnam is following China, sheep-like. This this article in Reuters from a couple of years ago may indicate that Vietnam is moving ahead with political reforms irrespective of political reform in China. Anyone more in-the-know care to comment?
Fifthly, I like that this concludes with O’Donnell and Schmitter’s “something else”. Given the emphasis on modernity in much of this, perhaps ‘modern authoritarianism’ would be a safer way to describe the future of political change in East Asia?
I’m also not sure whether the Burma/Indonesia is useful but it is certainly interesting. Maybe there’s a little study trip in it for the boys in Parliament. They love those subsidized escapades.
It wouldn’t be the first exchange between Indonesian and Burmese officials. Suharto’s generals have taught their Burmese counterparts a thing or two on “how to repress your people” in the past (interesting article touching on the issue in Irrawaddy http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=9905).
If judges have made a vow to work on behalf of the monarch, it makes sense that red shirts and lese majeste suspects are never granted bails, while people like Sonthi will get released instantly.
Regarding jonfernquest’s attack on the criminal “justice” system of Thailand, today’s Bangkok Post quotes:
” court spokesman Sitthisak Wanachakit stressed that judges made their vow to His Majesty the King to work on the monarch’s behalf to ensure justice and refrain from prejudice.”
I wonder if HM agrees with jonfernquest, in which case if he is in the know he would surely sack his judges for violating their vow?
The mentality that a coup may be necessary is what’s keeping Thailand in its present status of being third world. Just remember: ABC, Anything But a Coup.
You are in danger of becoming a broken record, endlessly playing the same three notes. Surely you don’t aspire to descend to LD’s level in the ongoing dialogue. Remove your blinders and you will see that apart from the never-say-die but nevertheless about-to-die remnants of the PAD/Yellow/Royalist BKK elite, Yingluck has the full backing of the majority of Thai citizens and now that the overwhelming flood emergency is receding into the past, and now that she is makng yet more highly successful and beneficial-to-Thailand overseas visits (especially compared to the feeble Abhisit/Kasit diplomatic efforts) and now that Thailand is on the verge of an economic boom, much of it based on higher domestic demand instead of simply cheap labor and overseas exports, she will clearly serve her full term and may even be re-elected for a 2nd full term. So you might be better off learning to appreciate her contribution and stop your endless sour-grapes and whining.
Inevitably the big question begging an answer: Will a Thaksin return now provoke another Thai coup?
It depends. If the Yingluck regime orchestrates a whitewash . . . to clear or pardon Thaksin of his legal sins, certainly a lot of Thai peopel will be very very angry.
Also inflation is getting very ugly in Thailand and soaring prices of basic items are starting to really hurt. Many workers also had been laid off after the floods and lots of small/medium sized factories could not reopen. The middle-east tensions had provoked thousands of overseas Thai workers, primarily from the Isan region, to suffer unpaid debts and unpaid overseas wages, while idled indefinitely.
Things are not so rosy now under Yingluck and many who had endured the Yingluck government’s recklessness and negligence during last floods are still angry and sufferring.
The ineptocratic Yingluck regime, me thinks is very very vulnerable . . . particularly to the dark lingering influence of Thaksin.
Tun H S Lee and Tun Tan Siew Sin were truly gentlemen of honor …and I am sure would have had no stomach for the subsequent political-business nexus that developed. A well written piece…and hopefully we will get there.
In most educational fields, Chulalongkorn Univ undergraduate students have gotten very high entrance examination scores. This can also be applied to other few top Thailand’s universities. But Chulalongkorn Univ is the oldest university and surrounded by business areas, luxury shopping malls, and modern train systems.
To get into these top Thailand’s universities, ones must study very hard. Unfortunately, most of Thai high school students have to go to tutoring schools to ensure to get high university entrance examination scores. They have to study too much that may destroy their creativities and self-learning motivations. More than 3 decades ago, when I was a high school student in a top school, I was in a minority (5%, perhaps) who did not attend any tutoring school. Fortunately, I could get into a medical school that I wanted (because they taught Physics and Mathematics more than Chulalonkorn Univ did).
To tell you the truth, a university instructor of a top university (perhaps, this applies to Chulalongkorn Univ’s instructor also) who has just earned his PhD from a top-10 US university in engineering earns 15,000 Baht (US$500) per month, while a 3-bedroom house in suburb areas costs 4,000,000-7,000,000 Baht (US$140,000-240,000). Well, you can explain the phenomena in Thailand now.
A little bit of (academic) nitpicking: As a fresh graduate the author should know to use references properly. As much as [2] fits into the structure, it is badly quoted, since it does not imply that “… Islamic & Asian Civilisation, Thinking Skills and Ethnic Relations [whose] effectiveness are questionable”. It rather states that the effectiveness of those subjects was not researched. This is a small and yet relevant difference.
It would be very interesting, on the other hand, to elaborate on the reasons why this research has never been done. To me, an academic living and teaching in Malaysia for the last 12 years, I dare to postulate the hypothesis that the powers that be know all too well that those subjects are effectively of little outcome. My assumption is that they have been introduced to play to the gallery (“Tamatun Islam”) respectively intentionally pretend to do something to counter a perceived weakness of the Malaysian (under-)graduates. Pretend, because real thinking skills and academic debate about ethnical relations is the very last that the government actually desires to evoke.
Ym RPK must read this many times over so that he will realise that the current system ( KKN ) is entrentched in our social & ( nothing to do with races ) political culture as aptly underlined in this article that it will take time, we the people have waited over 50 years. . . . What’s the hurry if we can ascertain that CHANGES are coming. . . . for the children of my children. ABU
I believe the ‘whitening’ cream obsession (and the associated prolification of ‘skin clinics’) is a social class phenomonen as opposed to a racial one. Brown skin = work in the sun = peasant = uneducated, ignorant and ignoble.
A local 33 yr old single taxi driver recently bemoaned the lack of straightforward, honest, and non-self-obssessed Thai ladies available – “… they all want to look like Korean soap opera ‘stars’ …’, he said – though I have paraphrased his actual remarks….
There are more incidence of hemi-pareses 2┬║ to Stroke (CVA) then incidence of HIV.
The former 2┬║ to hypertension, innocent victims of poverty/salty traditional diet while the latter especially women and children, the innocent victims of philandering spouses. All 2┬║ to lack of education and poverty.
The 5 years mortality/morbidity of CVA in Myanmar is as unglamorous as HIV infected if not worst.
MSF and DASSK insistent on HIV as the face of Myanmar deficiency in healthcare reveal how both ignore the common factors of the lack of education and abject poverty which the latter party help to bring about so willingly while denying the obvious repeatedly.
John Kwanu,seems that you yourself is not Malaysian,so how do you know that far about those state being run by Pakatan.Like what you had written,truth is found in those 5 states but what about the rest run by BN,is it all lies and no truth at all?
(jonfernquest#21) So what’s your beef with Ajarn Worachet, then? Members and supporters of the Nitirat group promote their views and debate outside the classroom and on and off campus, in print and open public forums, encouraging people to “dare talk openly in public about important things.” Also, my ‘comment is spurious?’ Are you doubting than I am the real superanonymous? Not quite following your train of thought.
I don’t doubt the PAD will pour out upon Thaksin’s homecoming unless a deal has been reached and telivised for public accpetance. There will probably be a point when politicians, some academics and many media agencies come out and say “now, we have achieved consensus for reconciliation, so we agree to the return of Khun Shinawatra”.
I am not saying PAD supporters are not royalist. They are. But it is just milder in degree compaire with that in Siam Samakkhi. I am pretty sure a lot of those hyper royalists you saw in 2006 HMK birthday have signed up for Siam Samakkhi.
But you do have a point though. That is the equivalence constantly drawn between “protecting the monarch” and “keeping Thaksin out”. Therefore we can’t really distinguish those who simply hate Thaksin and those who simply love the King.
But the main message (and a personal guess too) I try to make is that anti-Thaksin is a more powerful mobilization cause for many milder royalist.
reply to james bailey comment about the mitsubishi plant,wtf!!!malaysia government reported to have 8 victims?!!!where is the source do u get this from?then u should go to visit that place and interviewed each people who has been staying there even before the misubitshi planted there.not just 8 victims has been reported having leukimia,it involved those ppl who have been living there reported have the radiation like what we can see from japan..kids born with two heads,no arms and even incomplete part of the baby which born by those who lives there!come on!who the hell are you presenting the fucking twisted fact over here!with the statistics that is no scientifically proven and i dont think people would actually care to hear those numbers that u put overt here!
superanonymous: (jonfernquest#5) “So a coup wouldn’t happen because the constitution says it can’t? The legal mind never ceases to amaze.” “That’s a stunningly reductionist view of law which even the current crop of Republican hopefuls in the United States might find hard to swallow. People rape, kill and steal even though there are laws on the books against such activities. An injunction against coups would serve a similar purpose of defining the activity as outside of social norms. That may not be the answer to the problem, but surely it is part of the answer.”
What? Calling me a Republican? How utterly ridiculous ! 🙂
No, Mr. Superanonymous, systematic lack of transparency characterizes just about every step of the law in Thailand Why?
Because people: are 1. not informed by local media about what is going on; and 2. people do not dare talk openly in public about important things (the prostitution ring case against a law professor and vice president at a university I taught at is a good case in point, absolutely zero public discussion or even announcement and active blocking of news on campus, ask Clifford Sloane); and most importantly 3. a discipline of law in the university that attracts huge numbers of want-to-be police and civil servants (most of their parents already are) with zero engagement with empirical reality. The sociology of law does engage empirically with the law. David Johnson at University of Hawaii has done a detailed study of the role of government criminal prosecutors in Japan as well as his study of capital punishment in Asia. This is what these students should be learning about, not what legal statues mean in the abstract. So, Mr. Superanonymous, your comment is completely spurious!
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A week of colour
” . . .If judges have made a vow to work on behalf of the monarch . .”(#28)
That’s an unfactual IF and while admittedly Thai judges like Thai politicians could be bent (like in other places in the world), HMK only obliged the Thai judges to do their duty meticulously (court spokesman Sitthisak #27 Wanachakit meant well of course but has misquoted).
Define ‘Third World’ Dan D (#26). ‘Shady slim’ politicians like Thaksin and accommodating ‘coup’ opportunists will continue curse to Thai ‘democratic’ aspirations. But that said, Thailand’s economic march from developing to ‘nearly developed’ had not been interrupted. And sooner rather than later, Thailand’s continuing rapid economic development will inexorably accelerate Thai people’s demand for better government and better accountability. With economic development and political maturity will be the end of Reds and Yellows, and the Thaksins and Sonthis wannabes. And the monarchy after HMK reign will have to adapt or fade.
Democracy in Southeast Asia: A new generation’s take
A few quick points
Firstly, great way to respond to Diamond.
Secondly, Aim Simpeng, I like that you’ve tried to be optimistic, but there’s one thing that troubles me with your response. You write: “… the army has made clear in recent years that as the “protector of the nation” it has the right to shape political outcomes.” I think this deserves greater attention. Why doesn’t the threat of further military intervention in democratic process leave you less optimistic than you’ve outlined?
Thirdly, the anonymous Cambodian writer with CPP connections – I hope you are more optimistic than that. Perhaps your pessimism will bottom out and provoke a reaction? That’s something to be optimistic about!
Fourthly, Vietnam is mentioned once in Diamond’s article (the Atlantic version, at least), and Laos not at all. Perhaps inconveniences for the purposes of his good, broad overview? For Vietnam, he writes “They will gather momentum in Vietnam as it follows in China’s path of transformational (even if not quite as rapid) economic development.” Will it? I think it’s a bit myopic to suggest Vietnam is following China, sheep-like. This this article in Reuters from a couple of years ago may indicate that Vietnam is moving ahead with political reforms irrespective of political reform in China. Anyone more in-the-know care to comment?
Fifthly, I like that this concludes with O’Donnell and Schmitter’s “something else”. Given the emphasis on modernity in much of this, perhaps ‘modern authoritarianism’ would be a safer way to describe the future of political change in East Asia?
Hope all is well in Canberra!
Can Burma learn from Indonesia?
I’m also not sure whether the Burma/Indonesia is useful but it is certainly interesting. Maybe there’s a little study trip in it for the boys in Parliament. They love those subsidized escapades.
It wouldn’t be the first exchange between Indonesian and Burmese officials. Suharto’s generals have taught their Burmese counterparts a thing or two on “how to repress your people” in the past (interesting article touching on the issue in Irrawaddy http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=9905).
A week of colour
Ricky #27
If judges have made a vow to work on behalf of the monarch, it makes sense that red shirts and lese majeste suspects are never granted bails, while people like Sonthi will get released instantly.
A week of colour
Regarding jonfernquest’s attack on the criminal “justice” system of Thailand, today’s Bangkok Post quotes:
” court spokesman Sitthisak Wanachakit stressed that judges made their vow to His Majesty the King to work on the monarch’s behalf to ensure justice and refrain from prejudice.”
I wonder if HM agrees with jonfernquest, in which case if he is in the know he would surely sack his judges for violating their vow?
A week of colour
The mentality that a coup may be necessary is what’s keeping Thailand in its present status of being third world. Just remember: ABC, Anything But a Coup.
A week of colour
Vichai…………
You are in danger of becoming a broken record, endlessly playing the same three notes. Surely you don’t aspire to descend to LD’s level in the ongoing dialogue. Remove your blinders and you will see that apart from the never-say-die but nevertheless about-to-die remnants of the PAD/Yellow/Royalist BKK elite, Yingluck has the full backing of the majority of Thai citizens and now that the overwhelming flood emergency is receding into the past, and now that she is makng yet more highly successful and beneficial-to-Thailand overseas visits (especially compared to the feeble Abhisit/Kasit diplomatic efforts) and now that Thailand is on the verge of an economic boom, much of it based on higher domestic demand instead of simply cheap labor and overseas exports, she will clearly serve her full term and may even be re-elected for a 2nd full term. So you might be better off learning to appreciate her contribution and stop your endless sour-grapes and whining.
A week of colour
Inevitably the big question begging an answer: Will a Thaksin return now provoke another Thai coup?
It depends. If the Yingluck regime orchestrates a whitewash . . . to clear or pardon Thaksin of his legal sins, certainly a lot of Thai peopel will be very very angry.
Also inflation is getting very ugly in Thailand and soaring prices of basic items are starting to really hurt. Many workers also had been laid off after the floods and lots of small/medium sized factories could not reopen. The middle-east tensions had provoked thousands of overseas Thai workers, primarily from the Isan region, to suffer unpaid debts and unpaid overseas wages, while idled indefinitely.
Things are not so rosy now under Yingluck and many who had endured the Yingluck government’s recklessness and negligence during last floods are still angry and sufferring.
The ineptocratic Yingluck regime, me thinks is very very vulnerable . . . particularly to the dark lingering influence of Thaksin.
Malaysia after regime change – Tricia Yeoh
Tun H S Lee and Tun Tan Siew Sin were truly gentlemen of honor …and I am sure would have had no stomach for the subsequent political-business nexus that developed. A well written piece…and hopefully we will get there.
University rankings from Chula’s perspective
In most educational fields, Chulalongkorn Univ undergraduate students have gotten very high entrance examination scores. This can also be applied to other few top Thailand’s universities. But Chulalongkorn Univ is the oldest university and surrounded by business areas, luxury shopping malls, and modern train systems.
To get into these top Thailand’s universities, ones must study very hard. Unfortunately, most of Thai high school students have to go to tutoring schools to ensure to get high university entrance examination scores. They have to study too much that may destroy their creativities and self-learning motivations. More than 3 decades ago, when I was a high school student in a top school, I was in a minority (5%, perhaps) who did not attend any tutoring school. Fortunately, I could get into a medical school that I wanted (because they taught Physics and Mathematics more than Chulalonkorn Univ did).
To tell you the truth, a university instructor of a top university (perhaps, this applies to Chulalongkorn Univ’s instructor also) who has just earned his PhD from a top-10 US university in engineering earns 15,000 Baht (US$500) per month, while a 3-bedroom house in suburb areas costs 4,000,000-7,000,000 Baht (US$140,000-240,000). Well, you can explain the phenomena in Thailand now.
Malaysia’s political reform – academic freedom
A little bit of (academic) nitpicking: As a fresh graduate the author should know to use references properly. As much as [2] fits into the structure, it is badly quoted, since it does not imply that “… Islamic & Asian Civilisation, Thinking Skills and Ethnic Relations [whose] effectiveness are questionable”. It rather states that the effectiveness of those subjects was not researched. This is a small and yet relevant difference.
It would be very interesting, on the other hand, to elaborate on the reasons why this research has never been done. To me, an academic living and teaching in Malaysia for the last 12 years, I dare to postulate the hypothesis that the powers that be know all too well that those subjects are effectively of little outcome. My assumption is that they have been introduced to play to the gallery (“Tamatun Islam”) respectively intentionally pretend to do something to counter a perceived weakness of the Malaysian (under-)graduates. Pretend, because real thinking skills and academic debate about ethnical relations is the very last that the government actually desires to evoke.
Malaysia after regime change – Tricia Yeoh
Ym RPK must read this many times over so that he will realise that the current system ( KKN ) is entrentched in our social & ( nothing to do with races ) political culture as aptly underlined in this article that it will take time, we the people have waited over 50 years. . . . What’s the hurry if we can ascertain that CHANGES are coming. . . . for the children of my children. ABU
Nationalism and genetics: Thai obsession with race
I believe the ‘whitening’ cream obsession (and the associated prolification of ‘skin clinics’) is a social class phenomonen as opposed to a racial one. Brown skin = work in the sun = peasant = uneducated, ignorant and ignoble.
A local 33 yr old single taxi driver recently bemoaned the lack of straightforward, honest, and non-self-obssessed Thai ladies available – “… they all want to look like Korean soap opera ‘stars’ …’, he said – though I have paraphrased his actual remarks….
Interview with Doctors Without Borders – Myanmar
http://www.msf.org/msf/articles/2012/02/lives-in-the-balance-the-urgent-need-for-hiv-and-tb-treatment-in-myanmar.cfm
There are more incidence of hemi-pareses 2┬║ to Stroke (CVA) then incidence of HIV.
The former 2┬║ to hypertension, innocent victims of poverty/salty traditional diet while the latter especially women and children, the innocent victims of philandering spouses. All 2┬║ to lack of education and poverty.
The 5 years mortality/morbidity of CVA in Myanmar is as unglamorous as HIV infected if not worst.
MSF and DASSK insistent on HIV as the face of Myanmar deficiency in healthcare reveal how both ignore the common factors of the lack of education and abject poverty which the latter party help to bring about so willingly while denying the obvious repeatedly.
Malaysia after regime change – Meredith Weiss
John Kwanu,seems that you yourself is not Malaysian,so how do you know that far about those state being run by Pakatan.Like what you had written,truth is found in those 5 states but what about the rest run by BN,is it all lies and no truth at all?
A week of colour
(jonfernquest#21) So what’s your beef with Ajarn Worachet, then? Members and supporters of the Nitirat group promote their views and debate outside the classroom and on and off campus, in print and open public forums, encouraging people to “dare talk openly in public about important things.” Also, my ‘comment is spurious?’ Are you doubting than I am the real superanonymous? Not quite following your train of thought.
A week of colour
@Vichai
I don’t doubt the PAD will pour out upon Thaksin’s homecoming unless a deal has been reached and telivised for public accpetance. There will probably be a point when politicians, some academics and many media agencies come out and say “now, we have achieved consensus for reconciliation, so we agree to the return of Khun Shinawatra”.
I am not saying PAD supporters are not royalist. They are. But it is just milder in degree compaire with that in Siam Samakkhi. I am pretty sure a lot of those hyper royalists you saw in 2006 HMK birthday have signed up for Siam Samakkhi.
But you do have a point though. That is the equivalence constantly drawn between “protecting the monarch” and “keeping Thaksin out”. Therefore we can’t really distinguish those who simply hate Thaksin and those who simply love the King.
But the main message (and a personal guess too) I try to make is that anti-Thaksin is a more powerful mobilization cause for many milder royalist.
Very good die to die
reply to james bailey comment about the mitsubishi plant,wtf!!!malaysia government reported to have 8 victims?!!!where is the source do u get this from?then u should go to visit that place and interviewed each people who has been staying there even before the misubitshi planted there.not just 8 victims has been reported having leukimia,it involved those ppl who have been living there reported have the radiation like what we can see from japan..kids born with two heads,no arms and even incomplete part of the baby which born by those who lives there!come on!who the hell are you presenting the fucking twisted fact over here!with the statistics that is no scientifically proven and i dont think people would actually care to hear those numbers that u put overt here!
A week of colour
superanonymous: (jonfernquest#5) “So a coup wouldn’t happen because the constitution says it can’t? The legal mind never ceases to amaze.” “That’s a stunningly reductionist view of law which even the current crop of Republican hopefuls in the United States might find hard to swallow. People rape, kill and steal even though there are laws on the books against such activities. An injunction against coups would serve a similar purpose of defining the activity as outside of social norms. That may not be the answer to the problem, but surely it is part of the answer.”
What? Calling me a Republican? How utterly ridiculous ! 🙂
No, Mr. Superanonymous, systematic lack of transparency characterizes just about every step of the law in Thailand Why?
Because people: are 1. not informed by local media about what is going on; and 2. people do not dare talk openly in public about important things (the prostitution ring case against a law professor and vice president at a university I taught at is a good case in point, absolutely zero public discussion or even announcement and active blocking of news on campus, ask Clifford Sloane); and most importantly 3. a discipline of law in the university that attracts huge numbers of want-to-be police and civil servants (most of their parents already are) with zero engagement with empirical reality. The sociology of law does engage empirically with the law. David Johnson at University of Hawaii has done a detailed study of the role of government criminal prosecutors in Japan as well as his study of capital punishment in Asia. This is what these students should be learning about, not what legal statues mean in the abstract. So, Mr. Superanonymous, your comment is completely spurious!
🙂
A week of colour
Yes, Vichai, when do you think he’ll want them out again? Perhaps in a show against Thaksin?