Talking about how violent Thailand is or isn’t seems to be missing the point.
Isn’t the issue more that, when violence does occur there, people quickly find ways (and make excuses, sometimes telling blatent lies) to justify what happened, and to make the voilence seem either morally acceptable or irrelevant. When there’s blood shed in the land of smiles there’s usually little of the moral outrage that we see back in the west.
In May 2008, the first week that I moved to Nan, the burnt out corpse of a man was found hanging from a bridge, a couple of minutes walk away from the school where I’d just started to work. Some people said that he’d been burnt alive, others said he’d had his throat cut / been hung first and that his body had been burnt afterwards.
The story didn’t make it into any of the English language news papers. Incidently, most stories involving violence between Thai’s rarely get printed in the Thai-English press (BKK post/Nation etc…) I’m not sure whether it made the Thai ones or not – I didn’t try to read Thai papers then – but generally, if you pick up any Thai langauge newspaper, there’s usually at least one bloodied body on the front page… traffic accident, shooting, beating, some dispute over property, a scorned lover etc etc….
The first week that I was there people at my school talked about the dead man a lot. Whenever I asked them what they were talking about I was told not to think too much. When the death was mentioned, it was usually followed by comments likes ‘he was a drug dealer…’ ‘he was from Phayao / Chiang Rai…’ ‘he was a bad man…’ No one said anything that implied that the man did not deserve what had happened to him.
Similarly, no one seemed to question what had actually happened there (that the man had been tortured and murdered) and whether it was morally right, for someone, criminal or not, to be killed in that way.
As far as I know – it’s very difficult to find out about these things as people there don’t tend to like to talk about negative things – the murderer was never found, charged etc…
What struck me as being odd at the time was the way that the death was accepted, and couple of weeks later, like so many other deaths there, totally forgotten about, to the point where some people (in some cases the same people who had been talking about it a week earlier) said that it had never happened. ‘what body’ I was told…. ‘Oh that was just a story. It didn’t happen…’
Anyway, going back to the original article (instead of commenting on others comments) and the point that I originally wanted to make, I guess we are supposed to be shocked by the death threats / animal comparisons etc that people have been / still are making on Manager’s website. I wish I could be but, after seeing the other hate campaigns that Manager has lauched against people / groups it didn’t like (I think the first I remember was seeing Taksin turned into ‘I-leeyam’… an evil ‘squarehead’) in terms of content, this one doesn’t seem to be that different. The only difference seems to be the target, a group of academics, rather than a few dodgy corrupt politicians.
The sad thing is that Manager’s audience, the kind of people posting the comments, really believe in their own image, that they are educated, want to do their best to protect the country etc… They dont see the output of their fanaticism, the pages of childish jibes and death threats (there are lots on fb too…) as being in any way wrong and can’t understand why some westerners (like me) find it repulsive. Reasoning with these people, without it turning into the usual ‘you’re not Thai. you will never understand Thailand…’ circular debate is impossible.
I did sign the letter, although I do share the wish that people would not be jailed for their opinions altogether (and not just, as you say, jailed less). But one must go with what’s possible here. Giving 112 some oversight is putting it on a path towards England or Sweden’s lese-majeste laws, where the enforcement is only in rare and extreme cases (as in Sweden, when someone threw a pie at the king – not his picture, at the royal person himself!).
This is a reasonable and (one hopes, although decreasingly so) more achievable goal.
Besides your response containing lots and lots of words apparently chosen at random (many of them incorrectly), I ask again: What is it you find offensive about Sam’s link? Is it his use of the link to illustrate a point that so enrages you; or is it the journalist’s use (or abuse) of the facts for a news story; or, as is implied by your use of the derogatory “sod”, the misfortune of the victims in the tale?
On the WHO report, I think you place too much store in institutions that have their own imperfections. A critical, and sometimes even cynical, approach is better, as well as drawing on your own experience and observations. You’re a lefty; you’re supposed to be good at this stuff!
A unanimous decision was reached on January 30 “to disallow any campaign to amend Article 112 because the university is a government office and permitting such activity could mislead the public to believe the university agrees with such movement. This could create major rifts and possibly incite violent conflict within the university itself.”
This is just unbelievable. I know Thammasat. I believe two or three years ago, I personally witnessed that Thammasat Rangsit allowed the Yellows to use their facilities for some kind of rally or meeting. I remember this distinctly because of the unforgettable traffic jam inside the campus caused by vehicles and buses. (not sure if Somkit was already the Rector at that time)
By allowing the Yellows to use Thammasat’s facilities, did the public honestly believed that the “university agreed with the movement” of the yellows? yes…. no….. maybe……
Actually those who take solace from the fact that they think Thailand is quite a violent society or at least is is none too peaceful might look at the Global Peace Index on Wikipedia. I don’t have time to critically analyze the methodologies utilized or at the assumptions made (e.g. Papua New Guinea is considered more “peaceful” than Thailand but anyone who has taken a walk on the wild side in places such as Port Moresby or Lae or in the Southern Highlands might disagree) but if this GPI has any credibility than comparatively speaking Thailand is one of the more violent societies in the world: but not of course the most violent!
‘…it would be nice for someone out there to have the courage to take a moral stand even though the outcome would be their personal loss…(life, threat to family and/or career) …’
That’s exactly what the Nitirat have done. The rest are all cowards and fair weather democrats. Ya gotta stop making excuses at some point.
Though Sunday’s Khon Kaen discussion proceeded without incident, KKU’s academics were conspicuously absent, with much of the modest crowd composed of local Red Shirts, independent community members, and student activists.
Boonwat Chumpradit, a Khon Kaen Red Shirt villager in attendance, found the silence of KKU’s professors troubling. “Professors at the university should be the ones leadings us,” she said. “We shouldn’t have to be the ones leading them.”
Still, the campaign is so politically treacherous that even a professor from the Nitirat group declined to attend Khon Kaen’s meeting, telling the event’s organizer that it might endanger his relationship with his employer, Thammasat University. His fears seem to have been justified. The following day, Thammasat University rector Somkit Lertpaithoon announced on his Facebook page that Nitirat was banned from meeting on university property.
Prawet Praphanukul, lawyer to the anti-112 poster-child, Da Torpedo, Wad Rawee from CCAA 112, and Phornchai Yuanyee, Secretary of the Thai Undergraduate Student Union. Together they addressed the history, contradictions, absurdities, and abuses surrounding the lèse-majesté law.
As Sunday afternoon’s seminar came to a close and the floor was opened up to audience members, one KKU student took the microphone and pleaded for more action. “After we sign the petitions, we need to get in touch with our Pheu Thai representatives,” he said. “We are the ones who elected these representatives and now we need to get in touch with them and get them to change this law.”
And right after they contact their PT ‘representatives’ they’ll need to face the facts : There will be no help coming from the cowardly professional classes… academic or political… who think they have something to lose.
It’s up to the people themselves. Betrayed by everyone, they are the only ones who really want a democracy in Thailand… or anywhere else on earth.
It was the 1958 Law Alumni Club (of which Chuan Leekpai is a prominent member) that severely pressured Dr. Somkid to ban Nitirat events. Chuan even wants the Nitirat group suspended.
So much for “they have every right to air their opinions”…
At the same time, Phuea Thai’s stance towards any amendment of 112 makes sense if you believe in the pre-election “backroom bargain” between Thaksin, the military and allegedly the palace. This deal was alleged by Shawn Crispin (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/MF30Ae01.html) and the gist of it was: we let you govern if you stay away from certain issues.
I had kind of dismissed the whole notion of such a deal as a bit far-fetched. But the vehemence of PT’s stance on this makes you wonder whether there is some truth to it.
@Andrew Spooner: At the risk of further torturing your metaphor, my point was akin to saying that those inclined to rape might use short skirts as an excuse for their actions, not that such an excuse is in any way valid. Anyone invited to sign the letter was of course morally justified in doing so, provided the agreed with its content. I simply doubt that those who receive the letter will be particularly moved by it, in part because they view some of its signatories as extremists whose views have no place in Thailand’s national dialogue.
My second point hinted, I think, at the line of reasoning that lead you to withhold your signature, although I didn’t key in on the status of those currently imprisoned, as you have so rightly done.
“Aim Sinpeng” (in this piece) has entirely missed the point which explains Rector Somkit’s vacillation, weakness and indecisiveness. He, like the current government, are being held at ransom by the amaat regime. No point in blaming messengers even though it would be nice for someone out there to have the courage to take a moral stand even though the outcome would be their personal loss…(life, threat to family and/or career) No one in public office has the veracity or guts right now to challenge the amaat regime and its historic scheming to maintain contiguous summit privileges/benefits…Lets stop blaming messengers and get to the core of the problem
I suspect it’s a bit pointless to be drawn out on a debate on this matter as you seem wedded to a your own personal view of Thailand as “inherently violent” which is of course your right but subjective reasoning doesn’t hold much weight in terms of logical, constructive social analysis. I would point out respectfully that you do rather compound the fallacious logic of your initial argument by rejecting as “inaccurate” institutionally-verified international statistical evidence that challenges your own opinion, offering little by measure of counter-argument other than recourse to your own cognitive bias and anecdotal evidence drawn from your experience as a journalist and “the hundreds of Thais, expats and visitors [you] know well”. Great that you have such a rich professional and social network but claims to experiential authority is weak and spurious argumentation.
As for your closing remark, I am sure you know full well that no slight was meant by me to the victims of the criminal incident in Hua Hin so to try and mobilize it as the grounds for some kind of feigned rhetorical moralism on behalf of “Paul and Justine” is, well, just one final example of improper argumentation.
I guess I am not on enough lists because no one asked me to sign. I will sign up with CCAA112 and write a personal letter in protest directly to the rector at Thammasat University, as my colleague and friend Tom Hoy has done. It is extremely embarassing to work and live in Thailand as an academic, when actions like the one against the Nitarat Group by unchallenged by faculty here.
Donald Arthur Johnson, Faculty of Graduate Studies, Mahidol University, Salaya, Thailand
I have checked the feedback in Thai media today and found that the Thai media are not interested in the 224 which they might have interpreted that the 224 are aliens. As I have suggested that Thais be excited with foreigners if they are not involved with their internal affairs. The 224 will fade away easily in the river of conflicts in Thailand. However, we should wait for Yingluck’s reaction. Then we can evaluate what it would be in the coming future.
Well Jon, I recognise the validity of your concern about everything and the kitchen sink being placed under the banner of neo-liberalism (this was heavily debated in a previous New Mandala post), but I nonetheless feel the term retains analytical usefulness.
Regarding your question about land confiscation and whether “there has really been some discontinuous change recently?”, as I understand it, it relates to the rise in land value due to increased profit potential from export crops like green gram, rubber and palm oil, stemming in part from the removal of restrictions on export to foreign markets since the turn of the 1990s. Green gram, for example, mostly went to India, so wasn’t affected by sanctions.
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A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Talking about how violent Thailand is or isn’t seems to be missing the point.
Isn’t the issue more that, when violence does occur there, people quickly find ways (and make excuses, sometimes telling blatent lies) to justify what happened, and to make the voilence seem either morally acceptable or irrelevant. When there’s blood shed in the land of smiles there’s usually little of the moral outrage that we see back in the west.
In May 2008, the first week that I moved to Nan, the burnt out corpse of a man was found hanging from a bridge, a couple of minutes walk away from the school where I’d just started to work. Some people said that he’d been burnt alive, others said he’d had his throat cut / been hung first and that his body had been burnt afterwards.
The story didn’t make it into any of the English language news papers. Incidently, most stories involving violence between Thai’s rarely get printed in the Thai-English press (BKK post/Nation etc…) I’m not sure whether it made the Thai ones or not – I didn’t try to read Thai papers then – but generally, if you pick up any Thai langauge newspaper, there’s usually at least one bloodied body on the front page… traffic accident, shooting, beating, some dispute over property, a scorned lover etc etc….
The first week that I was there people at my school talked about the dead man a lot. Whenever I asked them what they were talking about I was told not to think too much. When the death was mentioned, it was usually followed by comments likes ‘he was a drug dealer…’ ‘he was from Phayao / Chiang Rai…’ ‘he was a bad man…’ No one said anything that implied that the man did not deserve what had happened to him.
Similarly, no one seemed to question what had actually happened there (that the man had been tortured and murdered) and whether it was morally right, for someone, criminal or not, to be killed in that way.
As far as I know – it’s very difficult to find out about these things as people there don’t tend to like to talk about negative things – the murderer was never found, charged etc…
What struck me as being odd at the time was the way that the death was accepted, and couple of weeks later, like so many other deaths there, totally forgotten about, to the point where some people (in some cases the same people who had been talking about it a week earlier) said that it had never happened. ‘what body’ I was told…. ‘Oh that was just a story. It didn’t happen…’
Anyway, going back to the original article (instead of commenting on others comments) and the point that I originally wanted to make, I guess we are supposed to be shocked by the death threats / animal comparisons etc that people have been / still are making on Manager’s website. I wish I could be but, after seeing the other hate campaigns that Manager has lauched against people / groups it didn’t like (I think the first I remember was seeing Taksin turned into ‘I-leeyam’… an evil ‘squarehead’) in terms of content, this one doesn’t seem to be that different. The only difference seems to be the target, a group of academics, rather than a few dodgy corrupt politicians.
The sad thing is that Manager’s audience, the kind of people posting the comments, really believe in their own image, that they are educated, want to do their best to protect the country etc… They dont see the output of their fanaticism, the pages of childish jibes and death threats (there are lots on fb too…) as being in any way wrong and can’t understand why some westerners (like me) find it repulsive. Reasoning with these people, without it turning into the usual ‘you’re not Thai. you will never understand Thailand…’ circular debate is impossible.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
International homicide rates: Thailand ranks No. 1 in Asia (http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html).
International solidarity for the Amendment of Article 112
RU is simply wrong. I also checked the Thai media, and there is quite a lot of reporting and discussion.
Is Tony back as Jon Wright? yawn, yawn and wake up in a stinking Thai jail (for some).
International solidarity for the Amendment of Article 112
@Doug and Andrew
I did sign the letter, although I do share the wish that people would not be jailed for their opinions altogether (and not just, as you say, jailed less). But one must go with what’s possible here. Giving 112 some oversight is putting it on a path towards England or Sweden’s lese-majeste laws, where the enforcement is only in rare and extreme cases (as in Sweden, when someone threw a pie at the king – not his picture, at the royal person himself!).
This is a reasonable and (one hopes, although decreasingly so) more achievable goal.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Brett
Besides your response containing lots and lots of words apparently chosen at random (many of them incorrectly), I ask again: What is it you find offensive about Sam’s link? Is it his use of the link to illustrate a point that so enrages you; or is it the journalist’s use (or abuse) of the facts for a news story; or, as is implied by your use of the derogatory “sod”, the misfortune of the victims in the tale?
On the WHO report, I think you place too much store in institutions that have their own imperfections. A critical, and sometimes even cynical, approach is better, as well as drawing on your own experience and observations. You’re a lefty; you’re supposed to be good at this stuff!
Pushing Nitirat to the edge
A unanimous decision was reached on January 30 “to disallow any campaign to amend Article 112 because the university is a government office and permitting such activity could mislead the public to believe the university agrees with such movement. This could create major rifts and possibly incite violent conflict within the university itself.”
This is just unbelievable. I know Thammasat. I believe two or three years ago, I personally witnessed that Thammasat Rangsit allowed the Yellows to use their facilities for some kind of rally or meeting. I remember this distinctly because of the unforgettable traffic jam inside the campus caused by vehicles and buses. (not sure if Somkit was already the Rector at that time)
By allowing the Yellows to use Thammasat’s facilities, did the public honestly believed that the “university agreed with the movement” of the yellows? yes…. no….. maybe……
Pushing Nitirat to the edge
Sometimes , after reading articles like this I think I am living in North Korea.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Actually those who take solace from the fact that they think Thailand is quite a violent society or at least is is none too peaceful might look at the Global Peace Index on Wikipedia. I don’t have time to critically analyze the methodologies utilized or at the assumptions made (e.g. Papua New Guinea is considered more “peaceful” than Thailand but anyone who has taken a walk on the wild side in places such as Port Moresby or Lae or in the Southern Highlands might disagree) but if this GPI has any credibility than comparatively speaking Thailand is one of the more violent societies in the world: but not of course the most violent!
Pushing Nitirat to the edge
‘…it would be nice for someone out there to have the courage to take a moral stand even though the outcome would be their personal loss…(life, threat to family and/or career) …’
That’s exactly what the Nitirat have done. The rest are all cowards and fair weather democrats. Ya gotta stop making excuses at some point.
Pushing Nitirat to the edge
Article 112 Reform in the Provinces
And right after they contact their PT ‘representatives’ they’ll need to face the facts : There will be no help coming from the cowardly professional classes… academic or political… who think they have something to lose.
It’s up to the people themselves. Betrayed by everyone, they are the only ones who really want a democracy in Thailand… or anywhere else on earth.
International solidarity for the Amendment of Article 112
I actually agree with K.Andrew Spooner on this, that the Nitirat proposals do not go far enough.
Pushing Nitirat to the edge
Thanks, Aim, for this article.
@ Pino striccoli #7
It was the 1958 Law Alumni Club (of which Chuan Leekpai is a prominent member) that severely pressured Dr. Somkid to ban Nitirat events. Chuan even wants the Nitirat group suspended.
“The alumni club, whose members include former prime minister Chuan Leekpai and former house speaker Meechai Ruchupan, also demanded the rector suspend the seven law lecturers from duty for what they allege is a show of disrespect to the monarchy.”
(http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/277537/thammasat-bans-nitirat-activity-on-uni-grounds)
So much for “they have every right to air their opinions”…
At the same time, Phuea Thai’s stance towards any amendment of 112 makes sense if you believe in the pre-election “backroom bargain” between Thaksin, the military and allegedly the palace. This deal was alleged by Shawn Crispin (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/MF30Ae01.html) and the gist of it was: we let you govern if you stay away from certain issues.
I had kind of dismissed the whole notion of such a deal as a bit far-fetched. But the vehemence of PT’s stance on this makes you wonder whether there is some truth to it.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
c38
I believe they will invite Yingluck again next year at Davos!
Something of a certainty if she still holds the office of Thailand’s PM…..
Quite how Vichai N arrives at his “champion” notion is beyond me to fathom – much like the rest of his lyrical input here.
International solidarity for the Amendment of Article 112
@Andrew Spooner: At the risk of further torturing your metaphor, my point was akin to saying that those inclined to rape might use short skirts as an excuse for their actions, not that such an excuse is in any way valid. Anyone invited to sign the letter was of course morally justified in doing so, provided the agreed with its content. I simply doubt that those who receive the letter will be particularly moved by it, in part because they view some of its signatories as extremists whose views have no place in Thailand’s national dialogue.
My second point hinted, I think, at the line of reasoning that lead you to withhold your signature, although I didn’t key in on the status of those currently imprisoned, as you have so rightly done.
Pushing Nitirat to the edge
“Aim Sinpeng” (in this piece) has entirely missed the point which explains Rector Somkit’s vacillation, weakness and indecisiveness. He, like the current government, are being held at ransom by the amaat regime. No point in blaming messengers even though it would be nice for someone out there to have the courage to take a moral stand even though the outcome would be their personal loss…(life, threat to family and/or career) No one in public office has the veracity or guts right now to challenge the amaat regime and its historic scheming to maintain contiguous summit privileges/benefits…Lets stop blaming messengers and get to the core of the problem
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Stuart,
I suspect it’s a bit pointless to be drawn out on a debate on this matter as you seem wedded to a your own personal view of Thailand as “inherently violent” which is of course your right but subjective reasoning doesn’t hold much weight in terms of logical, constructive social analysis. I would point out respectfully that you do rather compound the fallacious logic of your initial argument by rejecting as “inaccurate” institutionally-verified international statistical evidence that challenges your own opinion, offering little by measure of counter-argument other than recourse to your own cognitive bias and anecdotal evidence drawn from your experience as a journalist and “the hundreds of Thais, expats and visitors [you] know well”. Great that you have such a rich professional and social network but claims to experiential authority is weak and spurious argumentation.
As for your closing remark, I am sure you know full well that no slight was meant by me to the victims of the criminal incident in Hua Hin so to try and mobilize it as the grounds for some kind of feigned rhetorical moralism on behalf of “Paul and Justine” is, well, just one final example of improper argumentation.
International solidarity for the Amendment of Article 112
I guess I am not on enough lists because no one asked me to sign. I will sign up with CCAA112 and write a personal letter in protest directly to the rector at Thammasat University, as my colleague and friend Tom Hoy has done. It is extremely embarassing to work and live in Thailand as an academic, when actions like the one against the Nitarat Group by unchallenged by faculty here.
Donald Arthur Johnson, Faculty of Graduate Studies, Mahidol University, Salaya, Thailand
International solidarity for the Amendment of Article 112
I have checked the feedback in Thai media today and found that the Thai media are not interested in the 224 which they might have interpreted that the 224 are aliens. As I have suggested that Thais be excited with foreigners if they are not involved with their internal affairs. The 224 will fade away easily in the river of conflicts in Thailand. However, we should wait for Yingluck’s reaction. Then we can evaluate what it would be in the coming future.
Burma and the debates to come
Well Jon, I recognise the validity of your concern about everything and the kitchen sink being placed under the banner of neo-liberalism (this was heavily debated in a previous New Mandala post), but I nonetheless feel the term retains analytical usefulness.
Regarding your question about land confiscation and whether “there has really been some discontinuous change recently?”, as I understand it, it relates to the rise in land value due to increased profit potential from export crops like green gram, rubber and palm oil, stemming in part from the removal of restrictions on export to foreign markets since the turn of the 1990s. Green gram, for example, mostly went to India, so wasn’t affected by sanctions.
Reviews and reviews and reviews
Khun Andrew MacGregor Marshall #6
Somsak Jeamteerasakul #5
Please let us know which page we can find you. Going through the whole book yet again to look for it would be more than I could bear.
It’s on page 137.
I’ve posted a photo of it on my facebook with some explanation in Thai of the background (the description in the book gives no details), here
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=289993317720621&set=a.137616112958343.44289.100001298657012&type=1&theater¬if_t=like
I also posted critique of the book’s disgraceful treatment of Pridi on the King Anada’s death case here
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=289932647726688&set=a.137616112958343.44289.100001298657012&type=1
here: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=277872082280548&id=100001298657012¬if_t=like
and here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=289981474388472&set=a.137616112958343.44289.100001298657012&type=1
Sorry, they are all in Thai; have no time to write an English review yet.