It is a direct response to KBAALW and the chapter on the CPB, and a very damning one at that.
It is a far more tangible subject and therefore a much more difficult one for posters here to “dance around the subject” as it were, in reply. I have a feeling that some of the posters here are perhaps more closely linked to some of the authors of KBAALW than they are letting on. So I would be most interested to hear what they think.
If anyone can read this article without falling off their seat, I would be most surprised.
What I meant is that Thaksin’s no. 1 priority remains his ‘amnesty’. And that priority Thaksin kept on reminding the true Peau Thai Party believers.
If Peau Thai Party is to take the lese majeste law, this would be a behemoth of an elephant that would squeeze out any other very important issues that really matters to Peau Thai Party . . . which is: The Thaksin Amnesty Stupid!
seems that many readers believe this is the untouchable X factor [112], but PTP insiders told me (rightly or wrongly) that this a game with the amaat — having to give the appearance of compliance while working behind the stage. I dont know whether a deal has been done– be hard to know for sure though certain “titled ladies” have visited Thaksin. We need to remember that PTP are a composite of the “good, bad and the ugly” (like any political party) and the 111 really smart pollies were banned by the amaat regime five years ago for being too good but are due to be reinstated 30 May. The choice PTP have is to limp on as they are now and hope for a sudden change/”passing”; or to be failed through coup (the military cannot be touched for the last coup or any future coup[113], and/or subject to extreme right wing [street] machinations and the reactionary forces of civil society/media. These can bring them down at any time. PTP are indeed caught between a rock and a hard place, but should be pressured nevertheless or they will be forced to leave needed changes to a mass democratic revolutionary movement.
On the theme of dehumanising political opponents a long-time reader offers this image from the ASTV Manager magazine. The chap who is pictured is anti-lese majeste campaigner Worachet Pakeerat. Some details on how he fits in are available here.
“It is my hope that these two works represent a new stage in Indology, in which Sanskritists and Pali specialists will invest more of their time and skills in the study of Indic-language texts composed in Southeast Asia”
Yes! Me too. This would provide an underpinning for writing the intellectual history of pre-modern mainland Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka. (The earlier sections of the Burmese historical chronicle, though written in Burmese, derive from the Pali Commentaries. One can even enumerate all the missing links between stories from the Pali Corpus and the Burmese mythical history traditions Penetration of Pali into Upper Burma during the 1400s and Ava period of Burmese history is in dire need of scholarly attention )
Thanks so much for this review. Looking forward to more 🙂
If they cannot change it, then they should not make it worse. Did you see what happen after PT become the government? More people are being charged with LM, sentencing more severe, more attempt to crackdown on LM websites (such as buying the lawful intercept machine)…do they think by doing this they would ever win the hearts of the royalist fanatics?
Not only their effort in more serious crackdown completely futile, it would achieve nothing but dissuade more Reds to support them.
As to the question of whether the grassroots support the LM change or not, well, go to the North or Isaan into the ‘Red Village’, and listen to what the grassroots are talking. You will know what most grassroots think about the elites…and the people who are behind the wall of LM protection.
I can’t comment on Central America because I haven’t lived there nor have I read much about it. But I can comment on South Africa where I was the news editor at Johannesburg’s major daily newspaper during the time period in question. The “decades of violence, bombings, massacres and 1000s of deaths” you refer to were almost all within the black community – the so-call “black-on-black violence” that beset the nation from around 1985 through to 1996. The white community was almost totally isolated from the effects of ‘The Struggle”. There were indeed several limpet mine bombings in Johannesburg CBD in the late 1980s that were targeted at whites, and also some isolated tragedies such as the awful St James Church and Observatory massacres. But under the State of Emergency laws from 1985 onwards most white South Africans had barely an inkling of what was going on in the townships. My own news reporters had to operate under severe censorship.
The capitulation of the minority white community came about for a number of reasons, and was quite complex. International pressure, sanctions, and our increasing discomfort at being branded “the polecats of the western world” had a much greater impact than bombs and bullets. We certainly didn’t engage in a civil war of the nature I was talking about in my comment on Thailand. It was the threat of a bloodbath that forced our hand. In fact, our standing army – at the time the 5th largest in the world – was almost completely at rest other than some relatively low-key operations in the townships and the Angolan border. Our choice was to either hand it all over on a silver plate or risk everything we had in a bloodbath. History records the verdict.
people aren’t much different from place to place. I know quite a number of so-called priviledged “hi-so” Thais and I do not believe they have the appetite for all-out civil war with the peasants. The rich are far too selfish to die for Thailand. They’ll look after their businesses first, if they know what’s good for them. Just like white South Africans did.
As anyone done a similar cataloging of the content of the Thai language anti-monarch sites? As anyone here bothered to looks at what the content is that has been removed from Youtube? The name calling and ugly, obscene insults are just as prevalent there as in these Manager comments.
I’m for a revision of the LM that allows for reasonable political discussion, the problem is so much of what is out there is along exactly the same lines as what is being proclaimed here as something only “royalist” or “elites” engage in. Unfortunately, that is just not true.
.
I suspect that’s the interesting part of the story. Can they (or any other Thai government) ever touch these issues? Some of the comments on this post already suggest it’s possible, just that it’s a matter of timing. Keen to hear other thoughts.
Why would anyone think that PTP would be for changing the LM laws? What rural MP is going to stand up in the next election and tell his voters he supported a law that allowed people to insult the King? Do people actually think the grassroots UDD and PTP supporters would be in favor of that? That would be just the opening the both the BJT and Democrats would need to make serious inroads into the UDD heartland.
Why should there have been a “grand bargain” when Yingluck and her strategic advisors know very well which controversial issues this government can never touch?
I think you skimmed my above post. Did you see this sentence?:
———> “Luckily I did not vote for them”.
I was not broken hearted at all. I know that Thaksin is too much of a politician. Actually, I was already annoyed since the beginning of the Yingluck fever with the Red Shirts (even up until now).
I voted for another person who I thought he was the most suitable. Well, that person came out and say some stupid stuffs months ago. Thus, I think from the next election onwards, I will probably skip it altogether. No point voting for anyone (unless someone who I really think is suitable appears on the scene)..
“Why do you regard it as unacceptable for foreigners to press for political change in Thailand”
I don’t.
“but totally acceptable for the foreigners who worked on KBAALW to write a deliberately misleading and dishonest book designed to maintain the political status quo?”
Surely you should be addressing this question to Baker and Streckfuss?….
#103 Stuart
“I’m quite sure I’ll get around to the Thai writers, but the low hanging fruit provided by Handley, Marshal et al is sufficient for my needs at this time.”
Well good luck with making your way up the tree. You will, doubtless, find it a rewarding experience.
Not wanting to give this government undue credit but I’d like to think a lot of what’s determining the course of action is the TIMING. I’d also like to think at the right moment the change will come more spontaneously thus minimizing the likelihood of, god forbid, a civil war. The potential for the kind of violence like we’ve never seen before is too great.
“Privileged people who find themselves trapped in a corner often resort to bad language. But rarely does it spill over into all-out total violence because rich people simply have too much to lose in a sustained military campaign of mutual destruction. Only desperate poor people do that.”
Really?
So what was about all those death squads in Central America in the 1980s and the horrific civil wars that resulted just to protect a small, wealthy group from a bonafide peasant uprising?
You also cite South Africa. As I remember it, it was only after decades of violence, bombings, massacres and 1000s of deaths that the privileged white South Africans suddenly realised that they had to make peace.
And then let’s get onto Thailand. How many more students hanging from trees, massacres and coups will it take to convince the world how brutal these people are and what they will do to secure and maintain power?
Your comment is certainly rational but in Thailand, just like elsewhere, power groups tend to often operate completely irrationally and very very often assure their own destruction.
If history teaches the world one lesson it is that.
In Luang Prabang visitors can go to Phetxarat’s former residence, on the southern edge of town, where a small memorial of sorts is maintained by the managers of a luxury hotel. It doesn’t have a statue of Phetxarat, but there are a few interesting momentos. I’d assume there are many photos of Phetxarat hidden in the basement of the Royal Palace. As for Souvanna Phouma, there may be a memorial of sorts at his former residence in Luang Phabang, I don’t know. I have heard that Souvanna’s former residence in Vientiane “Mae Chi Thit” (spelling?) which is managed by MOFA is going to be developed into a multi-storey hotel by a Chinese company. This seems surprising given that there is a new large hotel opposite the site run by an Indian firm. There is an over supply of mid standard hotels in Vientiane at present. Don Chan Palace was meant to be 5 star, however, most residents of Vientiane would barely give it 3 stars as it quickly succumbs to concrete cancer. Souvanna’s other rural residence out beyond Kaolio, Nong Thevada, became a sand and gravel site years ago. I think for any statue to be made the will needs to come from the family. Souphanouvong’s daughter is very keen to promote her father’s legacy.
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Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
CT – @#10 : you’ve got it EXACTLY right.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Nick #20.
Can I post a link to a site with a strikingly similar dehumanizing image of the King?
Last time I included actual LM content, you deleted the post.
Review of A Life’s Work
I am surprised that no-one here has mentioned yet this article in Forbes – http://www.forbes.com/sites/simonmontlake/2012/01/20/in-thailand-a-rare-peek-at-his-majestys-balance-sheet/
It is a direct response to KBAALW and the chapter on the CPB, and a very damning one at that.
It is a far more tangible subject and therefore a much more difficult one for posters here to “dance around the subject” as it were, in reply. I have a feeling that some of the posters here are perhaps more closely linked to some of the authors of KBAALW than they are letting on. So I would be most interested to hear what they think.
If anyone can read this article without falling off their seat, I would be most surprised.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
‘Reality bites.’
What I meant is that Thaksin’s no. 1 priority remains his ‘amnesty’. And that priority Thaksin kept on reminding the true Peau Thai Party believers.
If Peau Thai Party is to take the lese majeste law, this would be a behemoth of an elephant that would squeeze out any other very important issues that really matters to Peau Thai Party . . . which is: The Thaksin Amnesty Stupid!
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
seems that many readers believe this is the untouchable X factor [112], but PTP insiders told me (rightly or wrongly) that this a game with the amaat — having to give the appearance of compliance while working behind the stage. I dont know whether a deal has been done– be hard to know for sure though certain “titled ladies” have visited Thaksin. We need to remember that PTP are a composite of the “good, bad and the ugly” (like any political party) and the 111 really smart pollies were banned by the amaat regime five years ago for being too good but are due to be reinstated 30 May. The choice PTP have is to limp on as they are now and hope for a sudden change/”passing”; or to be failed through coup (the military cannot be touched for the last coup or any future coup[113], and/or subject to extreme right wing [street] machinations and the reactionary forces of civil society/media. These can bring them down at any time. PTP are indeed caught between a rock and a hard place, but should be pressured nevertheless or they will be forced to leave needed changes to a mass democratic revolutionary movement.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
On the theme of dehumanising political opponents a long-time reader offers this image from the ASTV Manager magazine. The chap who is pictured is anti-lese majeste campaigner Worachet Pakeerat. Some details on how he fits in are available here.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Review of Cicuzza and Shimizu
“It is my hope that these two works represent a new stage in Indology, in which Sanskritists and Pali specialists will invest more of their time and skills in the study of Indic-language texts composed in Southeast Asia”
Yes! Me too. This would provide an underpinning for writing the intellectual history of pre-modern mainland Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka. (The earlier sections of the Burmese historical chronicle, though written in Burmese, derive from the Pali Commentaries. One can even enumerate all the missing links between stories from the Pali Corpus and the Burmese mythical history traditions Penetration of Pali into Upper Burma during the 1400s and Ava period of Burmese history is in dire need of scholarly attention )
Thanks so much for this review. Looking forward to more 🙂
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
@John Smith #7,
If they cannot change it, then they should not make it worse. Did you see what happen after PT become the government? More people are being charged with LM, sentencing more severe, more attempt to crackdown on LM websites (such as buying the lawful intercept machine)…do they think by doing this they would ever win the hearts of the royalist fanatics?
Not only their effort in more serious crackdown completely futile, it would achieve nothing but dissuade more Reds to support them.
As to the question of whether the grassroots support the LM change or not, well, go to the North or Isaan into the ‘Red Village’, and listen to what the grassroots are talking. You will know what most grassroots think about the elites…and the people who are behind the wall of LM protection.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Andrew (17)
I can’t comment on Central America because I haven’t lived there nor have I read much about it. But I can comment on South Africa where I was the news editor at Johannesburg’s major daily newspaper during the time period in question. The “decades of violence, bombings, massacres and 1000s of deaths” you refer to were almost all within the black community – the so-call “black-on-black violence” that beset the nation from around 1985 through to 1996. The white community was almost totally isolated from the effects of ‘The Struggle”. There were indeed several limpet mine bombings in Johannesburg CBD in the late 1980s that were targeted at whites, and also some isolated tragedies such as the awful St James Church and Observatory massacres. But under the State of Emergency laws from 1985 onwards most white South Africans had barely an inkling of what was going on in the townships. My own news reporters had to operate under severe censorship.
The capitulation of the minority white community came about for a number of reasons, and was quite complex. International pressure, sanctions, and our increasing discomfort at being branded “the polecats of the western world” had a much greater impact than bombs and bullets. We certainly didn’t engage in a civil war of the nature I was talking about in my comment on Thailand. It was the threat of a bloodbath that forced our hand. In fact, our standing army – at the time the 5th largest in the world – was almost completely at rest other than some relatively low-key operations in the townships and the Angolan border. Our choice was to either hand it all over on a silver plate or risk everything we had in a bloodbath. History records the verdict.
people aren’t much different from place to place. I know quite a number of so-called priviledged “hi-so” Thais and I do not believe they have the appetite for all-out civil war with the peasants. The rich are far too selfish to die for Thailand. They’ll look after their businesses first, if they know what’s good for them. Just like white South Africans did.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
As anyone done a similar cataloging of the content of the Thai language anti-monarch sites? As anyone here bothered to looks at what the content is that has been removed from Youtube? The name calling and ugly, obscene insults are just as prevalent there as in these Manager comments.
I’m for a revision of the LM that allows for reasonable political discussion, the problem is so much of what is out there is along exactly the same lines as what is being proclaimed here as something only “royalist” or “elites” engage in. Unfortunately, that is just not true.
.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
Thanks Srithanonchai,
I suspect that’s the interesting part of the story. Can they (or any other Thai government) ever touch these issues? Some of the comments on this post already suggest it’s possible, just that it’s a matter of timing. Keen to hear other thoughts.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
Why would anyone think that PTP would be for changing the LM laws? What rural MP is going to stand up in the next election and tell his voters he supported a law that allowed people to insult the King? Do people actually think the grassroots UDD and PTP supporters would be in favor of that? That would be just the opening the both the BJT and Democrats would need to make serious inroads into the UDD heartland.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
Why should there have been a “grand bargain” when Yingluck and her strategic advisors know very well which controversial issues this government can never touch?
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
A betrayal – yes. Unexpected – no. Should make for an interesting few years ahead.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
@Khun Vichai,
I think you skimmed my above post. Did you see this sentence?:
———> “Luckily I did not vote for them”.
I was not broken hearted at all. I know that Thaksin is too much of a politician. Actually, I was already annoyed since the beginning of the Yingluck fever with the Red Shirts (even up until now).
I voted for another person who I thought he was the most suitable. Well, that person came out and say some stupid stuffs months ago. Thus, I think from the next election onwards, I will probably skip it altogether. No point voting for anyone (unless someone who I really think is suitable appears on the scene)..
Review of A Life’s Work
#102
“Why do you regard it as unacceptable for foreigners to press for political change in Thailand”
I don’t.
“but totally acceptable for the foreigners who worked on KBAALW to write a deliberately misleading and dishonest book designed to maintain the political status quo?”
Surely you should be addressing this question to Baker and Streckfuss?….
#103 Stuart
“I’m quite sure I’ll get around to the Thai writers, but the low hanging fruit provided by Handley, Marshal et al is sufficient for my needs at this time.”
Well good luck with making your way up the tree. You will, doubtless, find it a rewarding experience.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
Not wanting to give this government undue credit but I’d like to think a lot of what’s determining the course of action is the TIMING. I’d also like to think at the right moment the change will come more spontaneously thus minimizing the likelihood of, god forbid, a civil war. The potential for the kind of violence like we’ve never seen before is too great.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
stuart says –
“Privileged people who find themselves trapped in a corner often resort to bad language. But rarely does it spill over into all-out total violence because rich people simply have too much to lose in a sustained military campaign of mutual destruction. Only desperate poor people do that.”
Really?
So what was about all those death squads in Central America in the 1980s and the horrific civil wars that resulted just to protect a small, wealthy group from a bonafide peasant uprising?
You also cite South Africa. As I remember it, it was only after decades of violence, bombings, massacres and 1000s of deaths that the privileged white South Africans suddenly realised that they had to make peace.
And then let’s get onto Thailand. How many more students hanging from trees, massacres and coups will it take to convince the world how brutal these people are and what they will do to secure and maintain power?
Your comment is certainly rational but in Thailand, just like elsewhere, power groups tend to often operate completely irrationally and very very often assure their own destruction.
If history teaches the world one lesson it is that.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
CT’s very broken-hearted and laments his perception of betrayal by Yingluck-PT Party.
“No We Can’t!” appears to be the new PT Party and Yingluck-Thaksin banner.
Reality bites.
Revolutionary statues reloaded
In Luang Prabang visitors can go to Phetxarat’s former residence, on the southern edge of town, where a small memorial of sorts is maintained by the managers of a luxury hotel. It doesn’t have a statue of Phetxarat, but there are a few interesting momentos. I’d assume there are many photos of Phetxarat hidden in the basement of the Royal Palace. As for Souvanna Phouma, there may be a memorial of sorts at his former residence in Luang Phabang, I don’t know. I have heard that Souvanna’s former residence in Vientiane “Mae Chi Thit” (spelling?) which is managed by MOFA is going to be developed into a multi-storey hotel by a Chinese company. This seems surprising given that there is a new large hotel opposite the site run by an Indian firm. There is an over supply of mid standard hotels in Vientiane at present. Don Chan Palace was meant to be 5 star, however, most residents of Vientiane would barely give it 3 stars as it quickly succumbs to concrete cancer. Souvanna’s other rural residence out beyond Kaolio, Nong Thevada, became a sand and gravel site years ago. I think for any statue to be made the will needs to come from the family. Souphanouvong’s daughter is very keen to promote her father’s legacy.