I was in the lecture hall when DPM delivered his public lecture. His answer to the question whether UMNO/BN is prepared to become opposition does make sense. No government will want to lose the election and become the opposition. But it is not for him or the party to decide. It’s the people. Once the people decide – whether BN will remain in power or become the opposition in the next election – all parties must accept the decision. Anyway, this is what democracy is all about. People decide through the ballot boxes and all parties accept the decision. DPM rightly said that in Malaysia 5 states fell to the opposition in the last general election. 8 out of 16 by-elections held since the last general election were won by the opposition. Did the BN government reject people’s decision? No. Did the BN government declare emergency? No. Isn’t this a clear evidence that the BN accepts people’s decision? Yes. I can’t expect more intellectual answer than this. Perhaps, the question is un-intellectual.
The Stream had a lively debate on the Peaceful Assembly Bill. The speakers were Barisan Nasional Member of Parliament P. Kamalanathan , Bar Council President, Lim Chee Wen, and academician Heng Pek Koon.
Are you saying that as a DPM, he cannot answer truthfully to the question posed?
What is so hard about saying “If we lose, we will congratulate the winning party”???
That has nothing to do with not supporting his own “current” govt chances? It is only due to the third world political mentality in Malaysia that this question has even to be asked! To defend the DPM answer simply reflects the same mentality of his supporter.
On New Mandala’s coverage of the floods: I accept Thitinan’s point about relatively little coverage of such a big story. His point may be a little overstated, but it is certainly true that both Nich and I would have liked to do much more on the floods, especially on their political, social and economic implications. Arthurson asks “What’s the story”. Simple answer – there are only so many hours in each day. We both have many other demands on our time. AW
@Nick Nostitz
I don’t agree with your assessment that the foreign investors are equally to blame for their losses as the Thai government. Promises were made that were not kept. Furthermore, I believe some of those promises to save some of the industrial estates could have been kept with adequate planning and competent organization and marshalling of resources. Be that as it may, there is a lot of anger at Thailand by foreign executives, and I expect we will see not so subtle punishment in the months ahead as large multinational firms “diversify” by packing up lock, stock, and barrel and moving to Vietnam and Indonesia.
In truth, you angered me by your taking “perverse enjoyment in the flood” comment, although I do understand that you meant it was a break from your usual coverage of political news events. However, come and visit me in Salaya and I will introduce you to the homeless people living in the filth on the street across from me, in cardboard and corrugated tin shacks, including the little children, and I don’t think you will be quite so quick to make flippant comments. I also think you are a little foolish to think that you have bought land upcountry that you are sure won’t be flooded some day. The Greenland and WAIS ice caps are melting, and in a hundred years it will all be under water. Actually, it must have been your wife that bought the land, because we foreigners cannot own land in Thailand, unless you found some loophole in the law I am unaware of.
@ phktresident
I totally agree with you that “the powers that be protected the guys that didn’t vote for them at the expense of the guys that did.” Perverse but understandable when you realize that the Peua Thai Party people in power are just representing another rich and powerful elite, and feel that they don’t really need the little guys in the red shirts anymore. There will be payback come election day, mark my words. The Bangkok governor for one will have a tough time getting re-elected, but as a Democrat (and plutocrat) he at least was faithful to his friends. Watch the lamestream media coverage and it is all “Bangkok, Bangkok, Bangkok” like the rest of us didn’t even exist. The only TV station with descent coverage has been Channel 3, and I am guessing that is because their broadcast studios on Phetkasem Road in the western suburbs were inundated.
@Ralph Kramden
This flooding has been going on for over three months and will probably linger on for another month, so 17 posts by New Mandala is not a lot in my estimation, especially for what nearly everyone (here) agrees is the biggest news event in Thailand in decades. I feel that Thitinan is correct, New Mandala HAS been detached and unengaged, and so by-and-large have the other political punditry websites. What’s the story?
@ynot
Ynot makes a good point that community organizing through Facebook and other social media is the great untold story to emerge from this crisis. I should have mentioned that my commute to Nakhon Pathom last Sunday was blocked for half an hour by about 200 demonstrators out on the highway near the Big C in Omnoi, demanding that the government do something to pump out their sois. Like the Arab Spring, these community demonstrators are being organized and mobilized as much online as by good old fashioned word of mouth.
Why would need foreign investors need direct see access?
I come from the south of Germany – about 1000 kilometers away from the sea – which houses more than a few industries.
What would be needed is enough electricity upcountry, and investment in a better rail system.
Holland has invested centuries in its flood protection, Thailand has spent the last decades dismantling the canals built in centuries that helped to ease the regular floods.
Independent investigation into the causes of the floods – little hope. The floods are far too politically charged for that.
Interesting yes, but the article itself is unavailable, possibly imposing us to scientific tastes? And organic export oriented projects are not comparable to sustainable feel-good projects.
What’s more interesting is that foreign investors have spent billions to build huge airports and ports to ship their stuff out but little on putting in place the infrastructure to keep their assets safe on the ground.
As for the location – they don’t have too many choices as they also need sea access – and all the land near to the sea is flood plain. In fact most of central and southern Thailand is flood plain.
And problems such as Thailand are facing can be overcome – most of Holland, after all, is below sea level and they have to deal with the Rhine and the North Sea.
The only way to find out the true causes of the floods is for a dispassionate, independent inquiry with a brief to look at all reasons as to why Thailand’s flood defences are so poor.
Based on the DPM’s response to the follow up question to Greg’s question, it seems to me that the ruling government is not anticipating having to give up power and to take a position as the formal Opposition. Instead, his response is crudely political — it sounds like an oblique political pitch declaring the willingness of the people to vote for the government by reference to its uninterrupted hold on power.
Nevertheless, I do not think that one can infer too much from his remarks. Because he is the DPM, he cannot approach the questions in a so-called “intellectual” (i.e. honest) way. He is bound by his position to stump for the government and not to concede anything to the idea that the government could lose an election.
In addition, it is difficult to infer that the government would respond with violence or via an emergency from these remarks. Indeed, Malaysian politics is ambiguous. There are patterns that could be exploited to respond with violence or by acting extra-legally via an emergency. But there are competing patterns, reflected in the “soft” side to the government’s “soft-authoritarianism” that may compel the government to allow a legitimate transfer of power, if it loses an election. I am unsure.
Still, there is good reason to pose these questions and to challenge the DPM — the government must learn to justify its views in an appropriately principled way. It must offer a justification that may be accepted by reasonable citizens, not merely one or other constituency. Any pressure to answer in this way is good pressure.
” . . .Foreign investors are as much to blame for the inundation of their factories as numerous past Thai governments are for building industrial estates in natural flood plains, for not doing due diligence.
Stupid idiots, nature finds its way. . .” (Nick Nostitz #10)
One big flood Nick Nostitz was ‘lucky’ to stay dry, and he thinks he is a genius. And everyone else who actually drowned or nearly drowned he labels ‘stupid idiots’.
And just to make a point about the Nostitz genius, Nostitz concludes: “Just because a country has a government does not mean that the grey matter between the ears can be laid to rest.”
Not sure about the law in the USA, but in some countries, the law regarding asylum had been amended that you cannot do anything to worsen your situation once you have applied for asylum. The evidence to determine whether or not the risk of persecution is serious enough that asylum should be granted is at the day one makes an application.
So don’t think for a moment that you can use asylum as an easy way to get residency in the USA or any developed countries. If you have to escape Thailand immediately to the US because there is evidence that you commit LM, then you seek asylum right at the airport upon your arrival in the US, you will be fine. However, if you have never committed LM before in Thailand, then you arrive in US and apply for one. Then for the fear that you won’t be granted asylum, you start committing LM after you made the application, then bad luck for you. They won’t consider those evidences as relevant and they will send you back, which of course, you’ll be jailed when you got sent back :p
In his fine essay, K Thitinan speaks to the “blatant … inequality” of Krungthep and upcountry underlying the reaction to the waters of the national and civic politicians. And nicely captures the “lopsided duality” of the Red Shirts who had indundated all the way from Pratunam to Silom, not suffering even a drop of flood water. I think as well of the lopsided duality, contrast just as stark but in reverse, of the maps portraying the election results that brought us this national government, the red tide of the north and northeast terminating pretty much in the Nonthaburi area he describes so lovingly and well, giving way to blue of the center of Bangkok. What does this say about Thailand’s democracy — the powers that be protected the guys that didn’t vote for them at the expense of the guys that did?
K Thitinan’s conclusion, echoing Ajarn Mingsarn, “get used to it”, is well thought and well said. It’ll be a big and long job for anyone, not to mention the Thai politicians and bureaucracy in the sad state they have fallen into, to do the fundamental planning and work to make the Chao Phrya basin work again. This is surely the vital lesson. And the blame, as he says, goes back a long way. How do we wipe the slate, and get on with the job! Don’t even stop to argue if it can be done. Try for it!
Somewhat lighter, my colleague from years ago in Montreal, seeing this part of K Thitinan’s story, cries that he did not think of the self-owned and -imposed tire clamp. He was known as the king of the Denver Boot (were such clamps originated in Denver?) for all the fines he paid to get them off.
Quintin Rozario aka GRK, please be fair and please use intellectual honesty especially since you are legally trained. With WiKi leaks and the Internet it is very hard to have a pen name. There is no bogey man in Malaysia except those who perpetuate fear through rumors and race/religious hatred. That is the true bogeyman. This kind of pys-ops/black ops do not work on the masses anymore, people are not going to believe such propaganda, please disclose this fact to your political and tell them not to waste their funds. It is not about Anglo Saxon views against Asian views, these statements are truly divisive, I understand you are just doing your job, but have more class lah. What we have here is unaccountability, hypocrisy and political tyranny simple as that. This factors are ruining Malaysia, the reality on the ground is very much different from Queensland GRK, please come back home and ‘turun padang’, maybe that’s when you will have some honestly in your writing.
One of the biggest problems with the lese majeste laws is that their enforcement/enactment still seems to be beyond any elected government’s power.
Even officials involved in the investigation are under enormous pressure to forward any filed case to the prosecutor, as by not doing so they may be accused of the same offense. Apart from the most lunatic cases filed the vast majority goes to the prosecution. And then the pressure doesn’t stop, all the way up to sentencing (and the law prohibits me from saying what i think about the court procedures of the cases i have followed).
This government may play lip service to demands of parts of the public (other parts would even advocate stricter laws), and to the UN, but the main question we should ask is how much authority does the government have over this issue. I fear that it is none.
Foreign investors are as much to blame for the inundation of their factories as numerous past Thai governments are for building industrial estates in natural flood plains, for not doing due diligence.
Stupid idiots, nature finds its way. Always.
When we bought our land upcountry ten years ago, the first thing we looked out for was that the land is located where it cannot be flooded. The first plot we got offered, we rejected because i was not sure that it won’t be flooded one day.
Just because a country has a government does not mean that the grey matter between the ears can be laid to rest.
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Will UMNO give up power?
I was in the lecture hall when DPM delivered his public lecture. His answer to the question whether UMNO/BN is prepared to become opposition does make sense. No government will want to lose the election and become the opposition. But it is not for him or the party to decide. It’s the people. Once the people decide – whether BN will remain in power or become the opposition in the next election – all parties must accept the decision. Anyway, this is what democracy is all about. People decide through the ballot boxes and all parties accept the decision. DPM rightly said that in Malaysia 5 states fell to the opposition in the last general election. 8 out of 16 by-elections held since the last general election were won by the opposition. Did the BN government reject people’s decision? No. Did the BN government declare emergency? No. Isn’t this a clear evidence that the BN accepts people’s decision? Yes. I can’t expect more intellectual answer than this. Perhaps, the question is un-intellectual.
Malaysia – Assembling the Peaceful Assembly Act
The Stream had a lively debate on the Peaceful Assembly Bill. The speakers were Barisan Nasional Member of Parliament P. Kamalanathan , Bar Council President, Lim Chee Wen, and academician Heng Pek Koon.
Will UMNO give up power?
Rueban # 2
Are you saying that as a DPM, he cannot answer truthfully to the question posed?
What is so hard about saying “If we lose, we will congratulate the winning party”???
That has nothing to do with not supporting his own “current” govt chances? It is only due to the third world political mentality in Malaysia that this question has even to be asked! To defend the DPM answer simply reflects the same mentality of his supporter.
Flood flavours
On New Mandala’s coverage of the floods: I accept Thitinan’s point about relatively little coverage of such a big story. His point may be a little overstated, but it is certainly true that both Nich and I would have liked to do much more on the floods, especially on their political, social and economic implications. Arthurson asks “What’s the story”. Simple answer – there are only so many hours in each day. We both have many other demands on our time. AW
Cambodia’s rice conundrum
Please email me on [email protected] to request a copy
Flood flavours
@Nick Nostitz
I don’t agree with your assessment that the foreign investors are equally to blame for their losses as the Thai government. Promises were made that were not kept. Furthermore, I believe some of those promises to save some of the industrial estates could have been kept with adequate planning and competent organization and marshalling of resources. Be that as it may, there is a lot of anger at Thailand by foreign executives, and I expect we will see not so subtle punishment in the months ahead as large multinational firms “diversify” by packing up lock, stock, and barrel and moving to Vietnam and Indonesia.
In truth, you angered me by your taking “perverse enjoyment in the flood” comment, although I do understand that you meant it was a break from your usual coverage of political news events. However, come and visit me in Salaya and I will introduce you to the homeless people living in the filth on the street across from me, in cardboard and corrugated tin shacks, including the little children, and I don’t think you will be quite so quick to make flippant comments. I also think you are a little foolish to think that you have bought land upcountry that you are sure won’t be flooded some day. The Greenland and WAIS ice caps are melting, and in a hundred years it will all be under water. Actually, it must have been your wife that bought the land, because we foreigners cannot own land in Thailand, unless you found some loophole in the law I am unaware of.
@ phktresident
I totally agree with you that “the powers that be protected the guys that didn’t vote for them at the expense of the guys that did.” Perverse but understandable when you realize that the Peua Thai Party people in power are just representing another rich and powerful elite, and feel that they don’t really need the little guys in the red shirts anymore. There will be payback come election day, mark my words. The Bangkok governor for one will have a tough time getting re-elected, but as a Democrat (and plutocrat) he at least was faithful to his friends. Watch the lamestream media coverage and it is all “Bangkok, Bangkok, Bangkok” like the rest of us didn’t even exist. The only TV station with descent coverage has been Channel 3, and I am guessing that is because their broadcast studios on Phetkasem Road in the western suburbs were inundated.
@Ralph Kramden
This flooding has been going on for over three months and will probably linger on for another month, so 17 posts by New Mandala is not a lot in my estimation, especially for what nearly everyone (here) agrees is the biggest news event in Thailand in decades. I feel that Thitinan is correct, New Mandala HAS been detached and unengaged, and so by-and-large have the other political punditry websites. What’s the story?
@ynot
Ynot makes a good point that community organizing through Facebook and other social media is the great untold story to emerge from this crisis. I should have mentioned that my commute to Nakhon Pathom last Sunday was blocked for half an hour by about 200 demonstrators out on the highway near the Big C in Omnoi, demanding that the government do something to pump out their sois. Like the Arab Spring, these community demonstrators are being organized and mobilized as much online as by good old fashioned word of mouth.
Flood flavours
“Andrew Spooner”:
Why would need foreign investors need direct see access?
I come from the south of Germany – about 1000 kilometers away from the sea – which houses more than a few industries.
What would be needed is enough electricity upcountry, and investment in a better rail system.
Holland has invested centuries in its flood protection, Thailand has spent the last decades dismantling the canals built in centuries that helped to ease the regular floods.
Independent investigation into the causes of the floods – little hope. The floods are far too politically charged for that.
Cambodia’s rice conundrum
Interesting yes, but the article itself is unavailable, possibly imposing us to scientific tastes? And organic export oriented projects are not comparable to sustainable feel-good projects.
Flood flavours
Nick
What’s more interesting is that foreign investors have spent billions to build huge airports and ports to ship their stuff out but little on putting in place the infrastructure to keep their assets safe on the ground.
As for the location – they don’t have too many choices as they also need sea access – and all the land near to the sea is flood plain. In fact most of central and southern Thailand is flood plain.
And problems such as Thailand are facing can be overcome – most of Holland, after all, is below sea level and they have to deal with the Rhine and the North Sea.
The only way to find out the true causes of the floods is for a dispassionate, independent inquiry with a brief to look at all reasons as to why Thailand’s flood defences are so poor.
What do you think the chances are of that?
Thailand’s Fearlessness: Free Akong
” …and the law prohibits me from saying what i think about the court procedures of the cases i have followed… ”
I keep hearing that… chapter and verse?
Will UMNO give up power?
Based on the DPM’s response to the follow up question to Greg’s question, it seems to me that the ruling government is not anticipating having to give up power and to take a position as the formal Opposition. Instead, his response is crudely political — it sounds like an oblique political pitch declaring the willingness of the people to vote for the government by reference to its uninterrupted hold on power.
Nevertheless, I do not think that one can infer too much from his remarks. Because he is the DPM, he cannot approach the questions in a so-called “intellectual” (i.e. honest) way. He is bound by his position to stump for the government and not to concede anything to the idea that the government could lose an election.
In addition, it is difficult to infer that the government would respond with violence or via an emergency from these remarks. Indeed, Malaysian politics is ambiguous. There are patterns that could be exploited to respond with violence or by acting extra-legally via an emergency. But there are competing patterns, reflected in the “soft” side to the government’s “soft-authoritarianism” that may compel the government to allow a legitimate transfer of power, if it loses an election. I am unsure.
Still, there is good reason to pose these questions and to challenge the DPM — the government must learn to justify its views in an appropriately principled way. It must offer a justification that may be accepted by reasonable citizens, not merely one or other constituency. Any pressure to answer in this way is good pressure.
Flood flavours
” . . .Foreign investors are as much to blame for the inundation of their factories as numerous past Thai governments are for building industrial estates in natural flood plains, for not doing due diligence.
Stupid idiots, nature finds its way. . .” (Nick Nostitz #10)
One big flood Nick Nostitz was ‘lucky’ to stay dry, and he thinks he is a genius. And everyone else who actually drowned or nearly drowned he labels ‘stupid idiots’.
And just to make a point about the Nostitz genius, Nostitz concludes: “Just because a country has a government does not mean that the grey matter between the ears can be laid to rest.”
Applause and more applause to Nostitz.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
@Sidney
Not sure about the law in the USA, but in some countries, the law regarding asylum had been amended that you cannot do anything to worsen your situation once you have applied for asylum. The evidence to determine whether or not the risk of persecution is serious enough that asylum should be granted is at the day one makes an application.
So don’t think for a moment that you can use asylum as an easy way to get residency in the USA or any developed countries. If you have to escape Thailand immediately to the US because there is evidence that you commit LM, then you seek asylum right at the airport upon your arrival in the US, you will be fine. However, if you have never committed LM before in Thailand, then you arrive in US and apply for one. Then for the fear that you won’t be granted asylum, you start committing LM after you made the application, then bad luck for you. They won’t consider those evidences as relevant and they will send you back, which of course, you’ll be jailed when you got sent back :p
Flood flavours
In his fine essay, K Thitinan speaks to the “blatant … inequality” of Krungthep and upcountry underlying the reaction to the waters of the national and civic politicians. And nicely captures the “lopsided duality” of the Red Shirts who had indundated all the way from Pratunam to Silom, not suffering even a drop of flood water. I think as well of the lopsided duality, contrast just as stark but in reverse, of the maps portraying the election results that brought us this national government, the red tide of the north and northeast terminating pretty much in the Nonthaburi area he describes so lovingly and well, giving way to blue of the center of Bangkok. What does this say about Thailand’s democracy — the powers that be protected the guys that didn’t vote for them at the expense of the guys that did?
K Thitinan’s conclusion, echoing Ajarn Mingsarn, “get used to it”, is well thought and well said. It’ll be a big and long job for anyone, not to mention the Thai politicians and bureaucracy in the sad state they have fallen into, to do the fundamental planning and work to make the Chao Phrya basin work again. This is surely the vital lesson. And the blame, as he says, goes back a long way. How do we wipe the slate, and get on with the job! Don’t even stop to argue if it can be done. Try for it!
Somewhat lighter, my colleague from years ago in Montreal, seeing this part of K Thitinan’s story, cries that he did not think of the self-owned and -imposed tire clamp. He was known as the king of the Denver Boot (were such clamps originated in Denver?) for all the fines he paid to get them off.
Thailand’s Fearlessness: Free Akong
A friend made notes on the Ar kong case…
Scroll down for English translation
http://www.ilaw.or.th/node/1229
Thailand’s Fearlessness: Free Akong
[…] to a comment at New Mandala, Suraphot “writes regularly for the Prachatai websites; his writing on political issues and […]
Crown Prince’s family update?
[…] р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕ар╕▓р╕йр╕▓р╕нр╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕др╕й http://www.newmandala.org/2011/08/03/crown-princes-family-update/ […]
Malaysia – Assembling the Peaceful Assembly Act
Quintin Rozario aka GRK, please be fair and please use intellectual honesty especially since you are legally trained. With WiKi leaks and the Internet it is very hard to have a pen name. There is no bogey man in Malaysia except those who perpetuate fear through rumors and race/religious hatred. That is the true bogeyman. This kind of pys-ops/black ops do not work on the masses anymore, people are not going to believe such propaganda, please disclose this fact to your political and tell them not to waste their funds. It is not about Anglo Saxon views against Asian views, these statements are truly divisive, I understand you are just doing your job, but have more class lah. What we have here is unaccountability, hypocrisy and political tyranny simple as that. This factors are ruining Malaysia, the reality on the ground is very much different from Queensland GRK, please come back home and ‘turun padang’, maybe that’s when you will have some honestly in your writing.
Kevin Lomax
Thailand’s Fearlessness: Free Akong
“Somsak Jeamteerasakul”:
One of the biggest problems with the lese majeste laws is that their enforcement/enactment still seems to be beyond any elected government’s power.
Even officials involved in the investigation are under enormous pressure to forward any filed case to the prosecutor, as by not doing so they may be accused of the same offense. Apart from the most lunatic cases filed the vast majority goes to the prosecution. And then the pressure doesn’t stop, all the way up to sentencing (and the law prohibits me from saying what i think about the court procedures of the cases i have followed).
This government may play lip service to demands of parts of the public (other parts would even advocate stricter laws), and to the UN, but the main question we should ask is how much authority does the government have over this issue. I fear that it is none.
Flood flavours
“Arthurson”:
Foreign investors are as much to blame for the inundation of their factories as numerous past Thai governments are for building industrial estates in natural flood plains, for not doing due diligence.
Stupid idiots, nature finds its way. Always.
When we bought our land upcountry ten years ago, the first thing we looked out for was that the land is located where it cannot be flooded. The first plot we got offered, we rejected because i was not sure that it won’t be flooded one day.
Just because a country has a government does not mean that the grey matter between the ears can be laid to rest.