[…] Adadol Ingawanij links to a Thai article which provides a profile of Mr. Amphon, a 61-year-old Bangkok resident who was sentenced to 20 years in prison for insulting […]
I got to admit that I rarely agree with you for the last couple of years but about this matter at least we seem to be on the same page.
Well there is a Thai law and I believe this Thai law was drawn in accordance with public opinion (at the time the law was drawn) that would like to prohibit ‘dissemination of offensive anti-Thai monarchy’ b.s.
Actually the current form of 112 was introduced by one of the coup junta, so its not from public opinion as you understand same with many other “bad laws” in Thailand.
Jesse – 14
How am I not surprised with your answer. Because of the answer like that Thailand will always be in the loop of endless massacre, I dont know how much you know about 6 October but you should read a bit about it.
The American Ambassador to Thailand, Kristie A. Kenney tweeted this on her website today:
“Done! Christmas decs up, take-home office work finished, organized for work tomorrow. Now it’s GLEE time! ”
Now I am glad she feels gleeful, but perhaps, as Joe Gordon now imprisoned for six months under Thailand’s draconian Lese Majeste law, she should begin some less quite diplomacy to get Joe out and back to the United States, and perhaps she can join actually advocate some of the Freedoms that Americans so cherish….. like the freedom of speech…….
It is cynical from the Thaksinites
to bash the gone Government.
We are now governed by the
Peoples Revolution Movement!
So where are their former big mouthed
Cheerleaders Jatuporn and Nattawut now?
Hiding in the shade of Chalerm?
Finally, after years of mistakes, AI and Mr. Zawacki agree that victims of the LM are political prisoners.
Does this mean that their previous stance on Da Torpedo — that she is not a political prisoner becuase 1) she made hate speech, 2) Thai monarchy is a champion of human rgihts — also change?
Does this mean that the AI’s silence for years on LM cases and victims will be over?
Does this mean that Mr. Zawacki’s silly excuse for his and AI’s silence — such as that the back room deals or negotiation with Thai authorities help LM victims better than a public statement or a fight –is just a silly and irresponsible excuse?
May I suggest that AI open an investigation into their mistakes regaring the human rights issues in Thailand since 2006?Something seriously wrong with AI, starting from their local people and reps in Thailand, like Mr. Zawacki and leading Thai human rights activists, to the AI people in London.
Or AI cannot admit mistake because AI is to big and too important to the world to admit a mistake?
Zawacki’s statement is way way too late and appears contrived. He should have been saying this when Da T was imprisoned and not running off to Kasit’s MFA for “advice”. Is it welcome? I suppose it is but I want to see both AI and HRW do much much more than one statement every 10years.
Have AI,HRW ever visited a LM prisoner in prison? Not from what my sources tell me. Have AI/HRW ever publicly complained about the denial of medical care to Joe, Surachai, Da T? Don’t think so. What about all the threatening hate campaigns launched in conjunction with the last Democrat Party govt? Did AI or HRW investigate any of the extra judicial killings of UDD members that happened after April/May last year? And what about the 30year+ sentences handed out to UDD members recently? No comment on those?
This is not just about a silence on the issue of LM but a silence on a lack of proper due process, the treatment of prisoners and pogroms against academics and 17year old girls. Have AI or HRW even heard of Krissada Klaharn, Deang Kotchasarn or Sawat Duangmanee?
From I can work out from previous statements by both AI and HRW is that anyone whose human rights who have been breached who are connected to the UDD is considered “political” and drops down in status for both organisations. Privately, several Thai HR activists have told me this as well. Such is HRW’s and AI’s Thaksin hatred (which makes them both politicised) that they have been less than diligent when it comes to mouthing protest to breaches of UDD supporters’ HRs.
And the quote “its current form and usage place the country in contravention of its international legal obligations” AI and you have used.
That conclusion was reached by the UPR in Geneva. I’m not sure AI even attended and I know, for a fact, it was a conclusion reached a long time ago by another HR NGO (not based, incidentally, in Thailand) and which was then taken up by the UN Special Rapporteur on FoE after Geneva. I don’t think AI had any input into any of that (your BZ’s friend Nick, maybe you can confirm with him?).
If that’s correct for Zawacki/AI to then attempt to claim credit for this without referencing any of the processes or sources involved in coming to that conclusion is not only incredibly arrogant but borders on a form of plagiarism. He and AI are claiming the credit for the hard work of a lot of other people without even acknowledging them.
My view remains that HRW and AI have been spectacular failures in Thailand. They are compromised, collusive and weak. And they work within restrictions they refuse to acknowledge or mention to their wider supporters.
If they can’t do their jobs properly in Thailand they should leave and set up elsewhere.
“A critical barrier remains before Article 112 and the Computer Crime Act can be examined seriously. It is the charge, often politically loaded, that the desire to examine and perhaps to amend the laws is linked to respect and affection for the monarch and monarchy.”
“The idea that discussion of the lese majeste law is somehow disloyal to the monarchy is emotionally loaded, but empty. The law cannot affect love of the monarch.”
It seems that moderates of the royalist aphichon recognize that, at present, LM and its reform can still be handled, but that there would be insurmountable problems in the post-succession period, with concomitant fallout for the monarchy. In this context, it is interesting to see Thongthong Chandrangsu, a technocratic-legal expert on all things royal, be appointed by Yingluck to lead the office of the PM.
On the other hand, as Voranai points out in his Sunday column on the same subject —
the Democrat Party is still in the hard-line corner. Abhisit, in the run-up to the elections, had pushed the Election Commission to prohibit anybody from using the monarchy as a tool during the campaign period. Post-election, the Democrats are back to using the monarchy as a tool to put pressure on the Yingluck government (though the party also has ideological reasons for this approach).
One cannot hope to pull the PAD, Dr. Tul’s group, and certainly not the new fanatically royalist kids on the block–Siam Samakkhi–into the moderate’s corner. But it would be good if the Democrats abandoned their position on this issue, and joined the moderates to create a broad front of political support for the modernization of 112.
Otherwise, as much as the Bangkok Post and others, for different reasons, want to see a change of 112 and the CCA, the public outcry following any announcement of a reform of this article/act by the Yingluck government would be deafening.
Believe it or not, to date, les majeste is the biggest cause of death in Thailand. How I wish Thailand could be a true democratic nation where all men and women are equal.
Really ? More than HIV+ related death caused by western men or the continuing massacre in the south of Thailand ? And in case you don’t know the number of females in the senior positions are higher than any other country in the world !
Nick: Which time was it when there was “too much noise” from HRW and AI on lese majeste? I can’t seem to recall it. The silences by HRW and AI are significant.
I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times. Thailand’s LM laws will definitely be abolished and/or defanged . . . but not today or in the near future . . . in deference to the deeply revered King Bhumibhol.
And Peau Thai Party and Yingluck, despite their overwhelming parliamentary majority, will not today or anytime during her term, make any effort to abolish or amend Thailand’s LM laws . . . because their no. 1 priority is to get an amnesty for Thaksin.
Rather the unrepentant divisive fugitive trouble maker of Dubai notoriety, those currently sentenced to and languishing in Thai jails from LM conviction should be on top of amnesty list submitted by Chalerm Yubamroon. Were they (convicted LM infractors) included?
I am getting this very revolting voodoo needle stabs in my guts that Yingluck and Chalerm had NOT!
“This sentence clearly infringes on freedom of expression,” said Benjamin Zawacki, Amnesty International’s Thailand researcher. “Amphon is a political prisoner.”
and:
and according to Benjamin Zawacki, Thailand’s lese majeste law, in “its current form and usage place the country in contravention of its international legal obligations.”
Public silence does not need to mean consent. There are times when too much noise can be counterproductive. The problem is also that the present 112 discussion is a war by proxy, a jungle of agendas, and not just the establishment attempts to co-opt media/NGOs/academics, but also the establishment’s opponents.
One small and obvious point that actually hasn’t been made (as far as I’m aware) is that Arkong effectively received the death sentence, given his advanced age. The prosecutors would have known this and given it due weight in their sentencing deliberations. Is this, therefore, the first death sentence under 112?
Believe it or not, to date, les majeste is the biggest cause of death in Thailand. How I wish Thailand could be a true democratic nation where all men and women are equal.
“Isn’t it time to get the Christians interested in this issue? I find it terribly offensive when I hear a positively awful song which takes words directly from Handel’s Messiah which refer to “the Almighty” to describe the King of Siam. This is nothing short of blasphemy and the composer and musicians who perform it any person who broadcasts it should be dealt with by the Inquisition.”
Yes, and it’s sort of lese majeste against all the other kings. King of Kings? How dare they?
I’ve noticed that too and as a loyal subject of Her Brittanic Majesty, I’ve taken offence. It’s quite presumptuous.
Ah Kong goes to jail, while the royal dog eats cake??? And this lese majeste law was drafted to protect an unelected family with old money but no real power in a democratic country??? Things just don’t add-up, in Thailand or Malaysia or Burma. Those in power are evil and will sacrifice anyone to teach the rest of the citizens a lesson. And the poor continues to suffer… “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. I hope Yingluck brings back Thaksin so that he can abolish the old family. The Thai people can deal with his own corruption later. Get rid of the old thieving institution, & for goodness sick, get rid of the mentally retarded heir! The generations of in-breds are sick to the core. And while this remains a dream, someone should organise a support group & raise money for Ah Gong to show what they think of lese majeste!
When I look at this picture, I see a selfish man who chose to do something without thinking of the consequence. What was this idiot trying to proof ? I pity him and feel terribly sorry for his family.
Typical “academic” behavior to judge and discredit people based on their level of English. I ain’t no grammar queen and I’m glad I’ll never see things the way “academic” person like you see !
Anyway the person who masterminded the riot last year and caused people to die is in exile and I hope justice or karma could get him soon.
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Ah Kong and his family
[…] Adadol Ingawanij links to a Thai article which provides a profile of Mr. Amphon, a 61-year-old Bangkok resident who was sentenced to 20 years in prison for insulting […]
Ah Kong and his family
VichaiN – 9
I got to admit that I rarely agree with you for the last couple of years but about this matter at least we seem to be on the same page.
Well there is a Thai law and I believe this Thai law was drawn in accordance with public opinion (at the time the law was drawn) that would like to prohibit ‘dissemination of offensive anti-Thai monarchy’ b.s.
Actually the current form of 112 was introduced by one of the coup junta, so its not from public opinion as you understand same with many other “bad laws” in Thailand.
Jesse – 14
How am I not surprised with your answer. Because of the answer like that Thailand will always be in the loop of endless massacre, I dont know how much you know about 6 October but you should read a bit about it.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
The American Ambassador to Thailand, Kristie A. Kenney tweeted this on her website today:
“Done! Christmas decs up, take-home office work finished, organized for work tomorrow. Now it’s GLEE time! ”
Now I am glad she feels gleeful, but perhaps, as Joe Gordon now imprisoned for six months under Thailand’s draconian Lese Majeste law, she should begin some less quite diplomacy to get Joe out and back to the United States, and perhaps she can join actually advocate some of the Freedoms that Americans so cherish….. like the freedom of speech…….
Free Joe Gordon!
Amnesty’s silence on lese majeste
[…] earlier thoughts on lese majeste should not be forgotten. We have felt that working in a more private capacity than in a public way […]
Ah Kong and his family
It is cynical from the Thaksinites
to bash the gone Government.
We are now governed by the
Peoples Revolution Movement!
So where are their former big mouthed
Cheerleaders Jatuporn and Nattawut now?
Hiding in the shade of Chalerm?
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Finally, after years of mistakes, AI and Mr. Zawacki agree that victims of the LM are political prisoners.
Does this mean that their previous stance on Da Torpedo — that she is not a political prisoner becuase 1) she made hate speech, 2) Thai monarchy is a champion of human rgihts — also change?
Does this mean that the AI’s silence for years on LM cases and victims will be over?
Does this mean that Mr. Zawacki’s silly excuse for his and AI’s silence — such as that the back room deals or negotiation with Thai authorities help LM victims better than a public statement or a fight –is just a silly and irresponsible excuse?
May I suggest that AI open an investigation into their mistakes regaring the human rights issues in Thailand since 2006?Something seriously wrong with AI, starting from their local people and reps in Thailand, like Mr. Zawacki and leading Thai human rights activists, to the AI people in London.
Or AI cannot admit mistake because AI is to big and too important to the world to admit a mistake?
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Nick
Zawacki’s statement is way way too late and appears contrived. He should have been saying this when Da T was imprisoned and not running off to Kasit’s MFA for “advice”. Is it welcome? I suppose it is but I want to see both AI and HRW do much much more than one statement every 10years.
Have AI,HRW ever visited a LM prisoner in prison? Not from what my sources tell me. Have AI/HRW ever publicly complained about the denial of medical care to Joe, Surachai, Da T? Don’t think so. What about all the threatening hate campaigns launched in conjunction with the last Democrat Party govt? Did AI or HRW investigate any of the extra judicial killings of UDD members that happened after April/May last year? And what about the 30year+ sentences handed out to UDD members recently? No comment on those?
This is not just about a silence on the issue of LM but a silence on a lack of proper due process, the treatment of prisoners and pogroms against academics and 17year old girls. Have AI or HRW even heard of Krissada Klaharn, Deang Kotchasarn or Sawat Duangmanee?
From I can work out from previous statements by both AI and HRW is that anyone whose human rights who have been breached who are connected to the UDD is considered “political” and drops down in status for both organisations. Privately, several Thai HR activists have told me this as well. Such is HRW’s and AI’s Thaksin hatred (which makes them both politicised) that they have been less than diligent when it comes to mouthing protest to breaches of UDD supporters’ HRs.
And the quote “its current form and usage place the country in contravention of its international legal obligations” AI and you have used.
That conclusion was reached by the UPR in Geneva. I’m not sure AI even attended and I know, for a fact, it was a conclusion reached a long time ago by another HR NGO (not based, incidentally, in Thailand) and which was then taken up by the UN Special Rapporteur on FoE after Geneva. I don’t think AI had any input into any of that (your BZ’s friend Nick, maybe you can confirm with him?).
If that’s correct for Zawacki/AI to then attempt to claim credit for this without referencing any of the processes or sources involved in coming to that conclusion is not only incredibly arrogant but borders on a form of plagiarism. He and AI are claiming the credit for the hard work of a lot of other people without even acknowledging them.
My view remains that HRW and AI have been spectacular failures in Thailand. They are compromised, collusive and weak. And they work within restrictions they refuse to acknowledge or mention to their wider supporters.
If they can’t do their jobs properly in Thailand they should leave and set up elsewhere.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
The Bangkok Post has a very interesting editorial this Sunday, headlined “Look at lese majeste laws.”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/268068/time-to-take-a-serious-look-at-lese-majeste-laws
Key sentences:
“A critical barrier remains before Article 112 and the Computer Crime Act can be examined seriously. It is the charge, often politically loaded, that the desire to examine and perhaps to amend the laws is linked to respect and affection for the monarch and monarchy.”
“The idea that discussion of the lese majeste law is somehow disloyal to the monarchy is emotionally loaded, but empty. The law cannot affect love of the monarch.”
It seems that moderates of the royalist aphichon recognize that, at present, LM and its reform can still be handled, but that there would be insurmountable problems in the post-succession period, with concomitant fallout for the monarchy. In this context, it is interesting to see Thongthong Chandrangsu, a technocratic-legal expert on all things royal, be appointed by Yingluck to lead the office of the PM.
On the other hand, as Voranai points out in his Sunday column on the same subject —
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/268071/the-strange-saga-of-uncle-sms —
the Democrat Party is still in the hard-line corner. Abhisit, in the run-up to the elections, had pushed the Election Commission to prohibit anybody from using the monarchy as a tool during the campaign period. Post-election, the Democrats are back to using the monarchy as a tool to put pressure on the Yingluck government (though the party also has ideological reasons for this approach).
One cannot hope to pull the PAD, Dr. Tul’s group, and certainly not the new fanatically royalist kids on the block–Siam Samakkhi–into the moderate’s corner. But it would be good if the Democrats abandoned their position on this issue, and joined the moderates to create a broad front of political support for the modernization of 112.
Otherwise, as much as the Bangkok Post and others, for different reasons, want to see a change of 112 and the CCA, the public outcry following any announcement of a reform of this article/act by the Yingluck government would be deafening.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
@ Silly me
Believe it or not, to date, les majeste is the biggest cause of death in Thailand. How I wish Thailand could be a true democratic nation where all men and women are equal.
Really ? More than HIV+ related death caused by western men or the continuing massacre in the south of Thailand ? And in case you don’t know the number of females in the senior positions are higher than any other country in the world !
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Nick: Which time was it when there was “too much noise” from HRW and AI on lese majeste? I can’t seem to recall it. The silences by HRW and AI are significant.
Ah Kong and his family
I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times. Thailand’s LM laws will definitely be abolished and/or defanged . . . but not today or in the near future . . . in deference to the deeply revered King Bhumibhol.
And Peau Thai Party and Yingluck, despite their overwhelming parliamentary majority, will not today or anytime during her term, make any effort to abolish or amend Thailand’s LM laws . . . because their no. 1 priority is to get an amnesty for Thaksin.
Rather the unrepentant divisive fugitive trouble maker of Dubai notoriety, those currently sentenced to and languishing in Thai jails from LM conviction should be on top of amnesty list submitted by Chalerm Yubamroon. Were they (convicted LM infractors) included?
I am getting this very revolting voodoo needle stabs in my guts that Yingluck and Chalerm had NOT!
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
“Andrew Spooner”:
Zawacki’s statement regarding this case here:
“This sentence clearly infringes on freedom of expression,” said Benjamin Zawacki, Amnesty International’s Thailand researcher. “Amphon is a political prisoner.”
and:
and according to Benjamin Zawacki, Thailand’s lese majeste law, in “its current form and usage place the country in contravention of its international legal obligations.”
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/thailand-%E2%80%98repressive%E2%80%99-20-year-sentence-text-message2011-11-23
“Ralph Kramden”:
Public silence does not need to mean consent. There are times when too much noise can be counterproductive. The problem is also that the present 112 discussion is a war by proxy, a jungle of agendas, and not just the establishment attempts to co-opt media/NGOs/academics, but also the establishment’s opponents.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
One small and obvious point that actually hasn’t been made (as far as I’m aware) is that Arkong effectively received the death sentence, given his advanced age. The prosecutors would have known this and given it due weight in their sentencing deliberations. Is this, therefore, the first death sentence under 112?
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Believe it or not, to date, les majeste is the biggest cause of death in Thailand. How I wish Thailand could be a true democratic nation where all men and women are equal.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
“Isn’t it time to get the Christians interested in this issue? I find it terribly offensive when I hear a positively awful song which takes words directly from Handel’s Messiah which refer to “the Almighty” to describe the King of Siam. This is nothing short of blasphemy and the composer and musicians who perform it any person who broadcasts it should be dealt with by the Inquisition.”
Yes, and it’s sort of lese majeste against all the other kings. King of Kings? How dare they?
I’ve noticed that too and as a loyal subject of Her Brittanic Majesty, I’ve taken offence. It’s quite presumptuous.
How dare they?
Ah Kong and his family
“Sure it is . . . but maybe in deference to the deeply revered King Bhumibhol, the Thais would defer this matter.”
Then Vichai N, you think that a a man should spend 20 years in prison for expressing an opinion? In deference?
I don’t. 20 years.
Ah Kong and his family
Ah Kong goes to jail, while the royal dog eats cake??? And this lese majeste law was drafted to protect an unelected family with old money but no real power in a democratic country??? Things just don’t add-up, in Thailand or Malaysia or Burma. Those in power are evil and will sacrifice anyone to teach the rest of the citizens a lesson. And the poor continues to suffer… “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. I hope Yingluck brings back Thaksin so that he can abolish the old family. The Thai people can deal with his own corruption later. Get rid of the old thieving institution, & for goodness sick, get rid of the mentally retarded heir! The generations of in-breds are sick to the core. And while this remains a dream, someone should organise a support group & raise money for Ah Gong to show what they think of lese majeste!
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
When I look at this picture, I see a selfish man who chose to do something without thinking of the consequence. What was this idiot trying to proof ? I pity him and feel terribly sorry for his family.
Ah Kong and his family
@CT
Typical “academic” behavior to judge and discredit people based on their level of English. I ain’t no grammar queen and I’m glad I’ll never see things the way “academic” person like you see !
Anyway the person who masterminded the riot last year and caused people to die is in exile and I hope justice or karma could get him soon.
Ah Kong and his family
May the poor chap get back home for good soon with the blessing of all the powers that be. Very shameful situation for Thailand.