On another note, you sound very much like the Malaysian government to me when you say:
“…More like threatening messages to PM’s assistant. How idiotic could you get?”
Did you know that 6 members of a political party, including a Federal Member of Parliament, was detained under Emergency Ordinance and charged for “preparing to wage war against the (Malaysia’s) King” – a charge punishable by death.
Their crime – having yellow t-shirts, pictures of Che Guevara and former Malayan Communist Party members.
I’m not exactly sure who is making the idiotic statement.
Emjay: I did say “. . .Thai public opinion to prohibit dissimination of offensive anti-monarchy b.s. . . “; quite different from ‘criticism’ HMK said he welcomes.
I’m too lazy to translate it word for word, but for those who can’t read it basically says:
“EM technology is the natural way to clean up bacterial scum. I don’t have any research papers to back up the claims, only 40 years of personal experience with environmental science. If people do not want to believe me, that is ok, I am not selling my reputation. There is no benefit in convincing people who do not want to believe in it.”
(emphasis on it’s my lazy translation, in that my summary doesn’t quite capture what she said – but it’s good enough)
So . . . why doesn’t she have any papers backing up the claims after 40 years of experience? So I emailed her again, saying the scientific community needs to see a paper with a full set of experiments and controls under carefully recorded conditions. Her response:
I’m too lazy to translate word for word, but the basic gist is: “I don’t have any papers on it. Such and such people used it and the flood water didn’t smell any more. Therefore EM balls work.”
My opinion: In science, you need to have a control experiment, and all conditions need to be carefully monitored – neither of which she did. She didn’t say which bacteria was affected, nor mentioned what the specific chemistry make-up of the EM balls were (or should be). And frankly, the subjective observation of smell is not a good scientific metric for clean water.
For your information here’s the list for Chiang Mai’s King’s Birthday Parade.
The event is the brain child of a senior officer in the Labor Department, in Chiang Mai. Recently an officer of the department addressed a meeting of foreign residents to warn folk that any person who performs “work” without having a work permit, which of course costs money, is liable to a fine, imprisonment or both.
I wonder how many people will be carrying NO 112 banners?
List of the Parade for the International, We Love our King’s Day
* Note : There may be more groups like Swiss and Japaneses etc.
A. The International processions.
Let by the Marching Band of Montfort Collage.
1. Scottish Pipe by Andrew McRady
2. Kids on bikes.
3. The Chiang Mai Ballet Academy and Peruvian Citizen
4. Taiwanese Business Association.
5. Rainbow Foundation.(50 Pax)
6. Chinese Students from Rachabaj University 100 Pax
7. Chinese Students from Maejo University 100 Pax
8. Chinese Students from Chiang Mai University 80 Pax
9. German Business Association 35 Pax
10. The Expatriates and Chiang Mai Friends Group led by the Jazz Band
11. Asia Foundation 40 Pax
12. Montfort Collage 50 Pax
13. Dara Collage 20 Pax
14. Chong Fah Chin Soeng Wanichbamrung 50 Pax
15. Srinakarintara Child Developtment Academy 10 Pax
16. Nithijitrak Foundation 5 Pax
17. Soe Teachers 25 Pax
18. Warm Heart Foundation 15 Pax
19. Thai Lanna Spa
B. Tribal Groups
Led by Marching Band of Sri Sangwan School
1. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕▓р╕Вр╣Ир╕▓ (Akha)
2. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕бр╣Йр╕З (Mong)
3. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕ер╕▓р╕лр╕╣р╣И (Lahu)
4. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Бр╕░р╣Ар╕лр╕гр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕З (Kar ieng)
5. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕ер╕╡р╕Лр╕╣ (Lisu)
6. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щ (Mein)
7. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Фр╕▓р╕гр╕▓р╕нр╕▒р╣Йр╕З (р╕Ыр╕░р╕лр╕ер╣Ир╕нр╕З)
8. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕┤р╣Йр╕зр╣Ар╕бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щ (Iu Mien)
9. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Др╕░р╕Йр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щ (khachin)
10. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕бр╕ер╕░ (Mla)
11. Dtai Lue Procession р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Тр╕Щр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕ер╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣И : р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕Хр╕│р╕Ър╕ер╕Фр╕нр╕вр╕кр╕░р╣Ар╕Бр╣Зр╕Ф р╣Вр╕Чр╕гр╕ир╕▒р╕Юр╕Чр╣М : 053-495782, 053-291738р╣Бр╕Яр╕Бр╕Лр╣М : 053-291380 р╕нр╕╡р╣Ар╕бр╕ер╣М : [email protected] р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Щр╕Юр╕Фр╕е р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕ир╕╕р╕ар╕▓р╕Зр╕Др╣М (р╕Хр╕╕р╣Йр╕в) р╕Ыр╕ер╕▒р╕Фр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Ър╕▓р╕е 081-783-8963 р╕Фр╕Х.р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Фр╕┤р╕йр╕Рр╣М р╕кр╕нр╕▓р╕Фр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Щ р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕бр╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╕╡ 081-881-1360
… etc
Nobody knows what effect AI and HRW would have had had they been speaking out about LM. We can only theorise.
But Amnesty didn’t remain silent. Ben Zawacki has made numerous comments, both privately and publicly, that reveal him not only as collusive but delusional. His “private” conversations with Abhisit proved utterly useless and seemed only to reveal that Zawacki had been co-opted and compromised.
I have long maintained he should resign. I don’t see any reason to change that view.
Vichai: Given the oft-cited fact that HM has already stated rather clearly that he should not be above criticism, in deference to his wishes LM law should obviously be reformed.
But we all know that it is that very deference that is being deferred. Lip service being preferred to deference by Thais of a particular political preference.
“Whether he sent the texts or not is completely irrelevant, he is being punished for his opinion . . .” Mantle (#6)
Let us assume he did send the text. Question is should he be punished?
Well there is a Thai law and I believe this Thai law was drawn in accordance with public opinion (at the time the law was drawn) that would like to prohibit ‘dissemination of offensive anti-Thai monarchy’ b.s.
Next question: Does the 20-year incarceration sentence correspond to the infraction? Most definitely not. Personally I thought a small fine should have been meted against Ah Kong and that’s it.
Final question: Is it time to abolish Thai LM laws. Sure it is . . . but maybe in deference to the deeply revered King Bhumibhol, the Thais would defer this matter.
Nick: I believe you may miss the main point in Andrew Spooner’s comment. He is referring to silences. The silences by HRW and AI are significant. AI may be less significant than some think, but they did get a private meeting with Abhisit when he was PM…. But that may still not be the basic point.
When international NGOs and foreign governments (via their embassies) together remain silent we are getting towards a conspiracy of silences that mesh with the preferred position of royalists in government and the conservative elite who prefer no noise on LM. By not being heard to deplore clear human rights violations each time they are seen means that these governments and NGOs are seen as contingent on human rights.
If nothing else, such human rights contingency means that those governments and international human rights organizations let down their own people and international supporters, respectively.
In specific cases, public silence leads to dire consequences. For example, silence by the U.S. leaves their citizen Joe Gordon rotting in jail even when he has taken the usual “prescribed” action and decided to plead guilty.
An irony of the LM situation is that Thais officials who administer LM are apparently themselves taking illegal or at least unconstitutional actions (see https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/facts-that-should-be-known/). The irony seems to be that to enforce the LM law, state officials willingly break the law and violate the constitution.
The current rising wave of LM action is meant to further enforce silences. AI, HRW and the main foreign embassies have a voice. If they remain silent, then who is to speak in a situation of threat and repression?
Sorry, guys, for barging again, no disagreement with what is said, but don’t you think that the way thais are not planning any action, collectively, to even mildly show in some numbers, that there are cases of L-M that are handled so forcefully that it damages the image of the country, makes it difficult for things to change?
It could be that all independant (from any color of shirt, any tycoon, any party) possibilities to organize a respectful but meaningful protest have been suppressed a long time (but then, it is a situation unique to Thailand, after all Burma, Cambodia, and of course Egypt, Syria, etc… quite repressive, murderous states, saw protests erupt on the line of non-violent demonstrations untied to any status quo forces).
What is your thought on this? It took over 2 months last year for the army to crackdown and people die (and it was mired in political maneouvering and direct calls for disobeyance that told us we were getiing to the “shooting” point), hard to believe a one-day demonstration that would signal that people do love the Monarch but have enough of how carried away the use of the LM law has gone, can be such a risk (I am talking real demonstration, peaceful and numerous, not 200 with banners of course)?
If thais do not think, or wish, they can do that, there is no way the international community can effect the changes wished. IMO.
I can tell you from my experience that many Thais who are fluent in English who work in NGOs (and many international organisations such as UN etc) are mostly Salims. They may see the issues of human rights violation in other countries, but they won’t see the violations in their country because the elites have distorted their rationale. So dream on that the UNs/NGOs in Thailand will do something about this.
In modern times, “Lese Majeste” could not be treated like in the old days when the power over a community or country lies in the hands of the rulers. Nowadays, the Monarchs in democratic countries do not have the absolute power to rule. They are symbols of the sovereignty of the countries they represent and they should function as the unifying factor for the people.
As such, they have to rise above politics and conduct themselves such that they gain the respect of all the people, regardless of gender, religion, race, social status, political leanings, etc. Any discontent or criticism from the people must not be treated with high-handedness for it would lead to further contempt as the reported case has shown.
The only sensible way to handle this delicate situation is to examine the contents of the seditious criticisms and come out with a statement refuting the allegations and at the same time, approach the
offenders and win then over. If they still persist, let the people convict them and not the powers that be.
In this way, respect is gained and the position of Royalty would not be tarnished. We hope and pray that our Royalties would come to understand the important role they play in unifying our Rakyat to live harmoniously as one people, as one nation. Daulat Tuanku! Hidup Rakyat! Hidup Malaysia!
@Jesse, how could a statement which does not paint the Royals in glosing terms be a threatening message to Abhisit’s assistant? Can you explain, using academic principles and academic reasoning, to support your assertion? If the message is about the Royals, then it has no relevance to Abhisit’s assistant. So can you tell me how could it be regarded as a threatening message to Abhisit’s assistant? (ie. please use existing principles to back up your viewpoint; I am not interested to read unacademic self-made principles).
I wouldn’t even comment on your assertion about “unspecified amount of money” from the Reds is worth a lifetime in prison because it does not even make any grammatical sense.
Anuways, if you fail to see the absurdity of this case that this kind of action gets twenty years imprisonment while people who killed people last year or in 6 October 1976 walk away with no punishment, then there is something serious wrong with your sense of morality.
The will of the people cannot be denied. Politicians must stop all these self-serving power and money politics and sincerely work for the well-being of all the rakyat of Malaysia.
As loyal citizens of our nation, we have to be patriotic to defend our Constitution from being compromised and adulterated. We have to prevent the powers that be from eroding the very basic foundation of our country – our Federal Constitution.
No, I don’t under or over estimate anything. Please don’t make assumptions.
And the opinion of the international community is important to the Thai “elite” (you use the word “state” – which “state” do you mean? The public one or the hidden one?) – it’s just that that opinion has been successfully co-opted via the moral relativist narrative of “don’t say anything” for far too long.
Listen to Fergal Keane’s interview with Abhisit – Mark Vej immediately retorts back to Keane’s questions with “look at the reaction of the international community last year [during the massacre] – they did and said nothing” to excuse his own actions.
AI has principles that are in its charter. They have been making exceptions to that charter in Thailand and it stinks. Mealy-mouthed excuses don’t cut it and never have.
I would also say the NGO community have very successfully portrayed Thaksin as a corrupt and gross human rights abuser to the international community. They did so very effectively.
Why did they stop with him?
And your final paragraph, if it in anyway reflects the mind set of the NGO community in Thailand, is quite appalling.
Is the suggestion that only certain groups and persons are worthy of having their human rights’ protected? That Ar Kong’s are more saleable than Da Torpedo’s? That’s quite terrifying.
I’m fed up of hearing excuses as to why Amnesty have been silent for years. Their policy on LM has been a complete and total failure. Their job is to protect human rights not the visa of their Thailand-based researcher.
What will really make someone ill is that none of you actually care about this guy – inside you are gushing with delight because you’ve finally got something you can hold up after weeks, months, years of nothing. Still – since none of you know the contents of the SMS – for all you know it could have contained threats of violence which would land you in prison no matter WHAT COUNTRY you’re from.
Does that stop you from jumping to conclusions and using this for your political agenda? No – not by a long shot. You’re just as bad as the people putting this guy in jail – maybe – depending on what the SMS actually said.
Personally I think LM charges should be rolled over into sedition/treason charges – and aimed at UDD, PTP, Thaksin, and all these fake US funded NGOs like Prachatai (yeah remember it was a conspiracy theory – now it turns out they get millions year-to-year from USAID, NED, Soros, etc). As far as this old guy goes – since I don’t have all the facts – unlike the rest of you – I’m going to reserve my comments until I have all the facts.
The rest of you – Walker doesn’t count – he is a paid shill, this is his job since a productive living is beyond his intellectual means – I suggest you be as impartial and principled as you pretend to be and don’t let people prey on your emotions.
Whether he sent the texts or not is completely irrelevant, he is being punished for his opinion. When a boundary is put up in the mind of an individual and continuously enforced (les majeste) that boundary will seep into the way he or she thinks about everything. The thai government is merely protecting the superego of the royal establishment while destroying the free thinking ability of its own people. And especially in a buddhist country where the inner peace of an individual is supposedly more important then material wealth, one would think that the royalty, which is supposed to represent “the people”, would be the institution advocating for the spiritual health of the individual by supporting free speech and expression.. sadly it is quite the opposite.
“The government has an outright majority in Parliament.”
And that means just that – a majority in parliament. It does not mean that it controls the army and other unelected sectors of the Thai state. The 2006 coup was done for far less sensitive reasons that the 112 issue.
“Andrew Spooner”:
“Amnesty and Zawacki can complain about this case now but Ah Kong’s imprisonment is as much on their hands as anyone else’s.”
You overestimate the influence NGO’s and Amnesty International have on Thailand’s internal politics, and underestimate the willingness of the Thai state to go to extremes when it concerns perceived threats against the monarchy.
Quite possibly you will also find that this case here is a lot better suited as a symbolic case for campaigns by international organizations than the Da Torpedo case.
In short what SteveCM (#28) means to say . . . . ahem . . . yes sorry, but . . . let’s wait for Yingluck’s supercommittees to complete its study, o.k.?
If only the Yingluck government will just articulate to the Thai people what really went wrong that her government could be so completely wrong about The Great Y2011 Thai Deluge that resulted in horrific devastations here there everywhere (my suspicion of gross incompetence just could not be erased), then maybe that would be a good start . . .
Because if the Yingluck government could NOT pinpoint or articulate what went wrong, how could I be soothed to believe my government (and its supercommittees) could eliminate those wrongs towards a long-term flood management solution?
My Isan friends are still edgy . . . very very edgy.
What is certain is that the savagery of Ampon’s sentence is pushing the situation to breaking point. A 61 year old grandfather is rotting in a Thai prison – the message is stark; this could happen to anyone.
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Ah Kong and his family
Jesse #3.
Appreciate if you could provide an answer to CT#7
On another note, you sound very much like the Malaysian government to me when you say:
“…More like threatening messages to PM’s assistant. How idiotic could you get?”
Did you know that 6 members of a political party, including a Federal Member of Parliament, was detained under Emergency Ordinance and charged for “preparing to wage war against the (Malaysia’s) King” – a charge punishable by death.
Their crime – having yellow t-shirts, pictures of Che Guevara and former Malayan Communist Party members.
I’m not exactly sure who is making the idiotic statement.
Ah Kong and his family
Emjay: I did say “. . .Thai public opinion to prohibit dissimination of offensive anti-monarchy b.s. . . “; quite different from ‘criticism’ HMK said he welcomes.
EM balls – a flood hoax?
There was a recent article by The Nation where the dean of the Srinakharinwirot University’s Faculty of Culture, Environment, and Eco-tourism said EM balls worked :
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/EM-balls-effective-academics-30169514.html
So I sent her a message to ask for scientific papers, and this was her response:
р╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Хр╕┤ р╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╣Зр╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Яр╕нр╕Бр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╣Ар╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Цр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕┤р╣Йр╕Зр╣Др╕зр╣Йр╕Щр╕▓р╕Щр╣Жр╕Бр╣Зр╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Хр╕Бр╕Хр╕░р╕Бр╕нр╕Щ р╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Ир╕░р╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╕Щр╕▓р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ж р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Гр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Фр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╕Ир╕╢р╕Зр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕Хр╕┤р╕бр╕Ир╕╕р╕ер╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕╡р╕вр╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕Юр╕┤р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Чр╕│р╕Зр╕▓р╕Щр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Ар╕гр╣Зр╕зр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Яр╕нр╕Бр╕Хр╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕Зр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕Ър╕Щр╕┤р╣Ар╕зр╕ир╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤. р╕Хр╕│р╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕Ър╕Щр╕┤р╣Ар╕зр╕ир╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Щр╕│р╣Й р╕бр╕╡р╕Др╣Ир╕░ р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Юр╕╣р╕Фр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Бр╕зр╕┤р╕Кр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г р╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Ьр╕ер╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕Фр╕ер╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Др╕вр╕Чр╕│ р╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕нр╕Щр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕зр╕┤р╕Ир╕▒р╕вр╕Фр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕Ир╕╕р╕ер╕Кр╕╡р╕зр╕зр╕┤р╕Чр╕вр╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╕нр╕Ър╕кр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕┤р╕Ър╕Ыр╕╡ р╣Гр╕Др╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕░р╣Др╕г р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Ьр╕ер╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Вр╕вр╕Кр╕Щр╣Мр╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╣Гр╕Ф р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ир╕░р╕Вр╕▓р╕в р╕бр╕╡р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Яр╕гр╕╡ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╕гр╕Цр╕Ър╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕▒р╕Ър╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Гр╕Др╕гр╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Др╕Фр╣Й
I’m too lazy to translate it word for word, but for those who can’t read it basically says:
“EM technology is the natural way to clean up bacterial scum. I don’t have any research papers to back up the claims, only 40 years of personal experience with environmental science. If people do not want to believe me, that is ok, I am not selling my reputation. There is no benefit in convincing people who do not want to believe in it.”
(emphasis on it’s my lazy translation, in that my summary doesn’t quite capture what she said – but it’s good enough)
So . . . why doesn’t she have any papers backing up the claims after 40 years of experience? So I emailed her again, saying the scientific community needs to see a paper with a full set of experiments and controls under carefully recorded conditions. Her response:
[quote]р╕Вр╕Ур╕░р╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕Ьр╕ер╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕Кр╣Й р╕Ир╕╕р╕ер╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕╡р╕вр╣Мр╕нр╕╡р╣Ар╕нр╣Зр╕бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕зр╕┤р╕Чр╕вр╕▓р╕ер╕▒р╕вр╕ир╕гр╕╡р╕Щр╕Др╕гр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕зр╕┤р╣Вр╕гр╕Т р╕Ър╕│р╕Ър╕▒р╕Фр╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╕Чр╣Ир╕зр╕бр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕З р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Ьр╕ер╕Фр╕╡ р╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щ р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕лр╕бр╕╣р╣Ир╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕кр╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Бр╕йр╕Хр╕г р╕Др╕ер╕нр╕З 5 р╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕нр╕╡р╣Ар╕нр╣Зр╕бр╣Гр╕Щр╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 40 р╣Др╕гр╣Ир╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╕Чр╣Ир╕зр╕б р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╣Гр╕кр╣Ир╕нр╕╡р╣Ар╕нр╣Зр╕б р╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╣Ар╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕лр╕бр╣Зр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Б р╕зр╕▒р╕Фр╕Ыр╕гр╕┤р╕бр╕▓р╕Ур╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕Лр╕┤р╣Ар╕Ир╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕ер╕░р╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╣Др╕Фр╣Й 1 р╕бр╕┤р╕ер╕ер╕┤р╕Бр╕гр╕▒р╕бр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕ер╕┤р╕Хр╕г р╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╣Гр╕кр╣Ир╕Ир╕╕р╕ер╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕╡р╕вр╣М р╕ар╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Щ 5 р╕зр╕▒р╕Щ р╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╕Ор╕Ьр╕ер╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╣Гр╕к р╕Бр╕ер╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕лр╕бр╣Зр╕Щр╕лр╕бр╕Фр╣Др╕Ы р╕зр╕▒р╕Фр╕Ыр╕гр╕┤р╕бр╕▓р╕Ур╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕Лр╕┤р╣Ар╕Ир╕Щр╣Гр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╣Др╕Фр╣Й 4 р╕бр╕┤р╕ер╕ер╕┤р╕Бр╕гр╕▒р╕бр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕ер╕┤р╕Хр╕г р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Хр╕гр╕Рр╕▓р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Щр╕│р╣Йр╕Фр╕╡ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Бр╕│р╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Фр╕│р╣Ар╕Щр╕┤р╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ър╕│р╕Ър╕▒р╕Фр╣Гр╕Щр╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Гр╕Бр╕ер╣Йр╣Ар╕Др╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╣Др╕Ы. р╕Щр╕нр╕Бр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕Ър╕ар╕▒р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ир╕╕р╕ер╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕╡р╕вр╣Мр╕нр╕╡р╣Ар╕нр╣Зр╕бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕зр╕┤р╕Чр╕вр╕▓р╕ер╕▒р╕вр╕Бр╣Зр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕Зр╣Ир╕Щр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╕бр╕▓р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Ьр╕ер╕Фр╕╡р╕бр╕▓р╕Б
р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╣Ар╕Юр╕┤р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕Хр╕┤р╕бр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Ир╕│р╕Щр╕зр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Б. р╣Бр╕бр╣Йр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕Зр╕Др╕Щр╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щр╕Др╕╕р╕У р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕н р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ер╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕нр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Фр╕╣р╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Хр╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Яр╕гр╕╡р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕зр╕┤р╕Ир╕▒р╕вр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Щр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Вр╕вр╕Кр╕Щр╣Мр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕кр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕б р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Ьр╕ер╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Вр╕вр╕Кр╕Щр╣Мр╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕З[/quote]
I’m too lazy to translate word for word, but the basic gist is: “I don’t have any papers on it. Such and such people used it and the flood water didn’t smell any more. Therefore EM balls work.”
My opinion: In science, you need to have a control experiment, and all conditions need to be carefully monitored – neither of which she did. She didn’t say which bacteria was affected, nor mentioned what the specific chemistry make-up of the EM balls were (or should be). And frankly, the subjective observation of smell is not a good scientific metric for clean water.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Oooh! Tony’s back. More total nonsense. At least this time he doesn’t purport to be peddling facts.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
For your information here’s the list for Chiang Mai’s King’s Birthday Parade.
The event is the brain child of a senior officer in the Labor Department, in Chiang Mai. Recently an officer of the department addressed a meeting of foreign residents to warn folk that any person who performs “work” without having a work permit, which of course costs money, is liable to a fine, imprisonment or both.
I wonder how many people will be carrying NO 112 banners?
List of the Parade for the International, We Love our King’s Day
* Note : There may be more groups like Swiss and Japaneses etc.
A. The International processions.
Let by the Marching Band of Montfort Collage.
1. Scottish Pipe by Andrew McRady
2. Kids on bikes.
3. The Chiang Mai Ballet Academy and Peruvian Citizen
4. Taiwanese Business Association.
5. Rainbow Foundation.(50 Pax)
6. Chinese Students from Rachabaj University 100 Pax
7. Chinese Students from Maejo University 100 Pax
8. Chinese Students from Chiang Mai University 80 Pax
9. German Business Association 35 Pax
10. The Expatriates and Chiang Mai Friends Group led by the Jazz Band
11. Asia Foundation 40 Pax
12. Montfort Collage 50 Pax
13. Dara Collage 20 Pax
14. Chong Fah Chin Soeng Wanichbamrung 50 Pax
15. Srinakarintara Child Developtment Academy 10 Pax
16. Nithijitrak Foundation 5 Pax
17. Soe Teachers 25 Pax
18. Warm Heart Foundation 15 Pax
19. Thai Lanna Spa
B. Tribal Groups
Led by Marching Band of Sri Sangwan School
1. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕▓р╕Вр╣Ир╕▓ (Akha)
2. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕бр╣Йр╕З (Mong)
3. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕ер╕▓р╕лр╕╣р╣И (Lahu)
4. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Бр╕░р╣Ар╕лр╕гр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕З (Kar ieng)
5. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕ер╕╡р╕Лр╕╣ (Lisu)
6. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щ (Mein)
7. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Фр╕▓р╕гр╕▓р╕нр╕▒р╣Йр╕З (р╕Ыр╕░р╕лр╕ер╣Ир╕нр╕З)
8. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕┤р╣Йр╕зр╣Ар╕бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щ (Iu Mien)
9. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Др╕░р╕Йр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щ (khachin)
10. р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕бр╕ер╕░ (Mla)
11. Dtai Lue Procession р╕Вр╕Ър╕зр╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Тр╕Щр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕ер╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣И : р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕Хр╕│р╕Ър╕ер╕Фр╕нр╕вр╕кр╕░р╣Ар╕Бр╣Зр╕Ф р╣Вр╕Чр╕гр╕ир╕▒р╕Юр╕Чр╣М : 053-495782, 053-291738р╣Бр╕Яр╕Бр╕Лр╣М : 053-291380 р╕нр╕╡р╣Ар╕бр╕ер╣М : [email protected] р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Щр╕Юр╕Фр╕е р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕ир╕╕р╕ар╕▓р╕Зр╕Др╣М (р╕Хр╕╕р╣Йр╕в) р╕Ыр╕ер╕▒р╕Фр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Ър╕▓р╕е 081-783-8963 р╕Фр╕Х.р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Фр╕┤р╕йр╕Рр╣М р╕кр╕нр╕▓р╕Фр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Щ р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕бр╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╕╡ 081-881-1360
… etc
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Ralph
Silence equals complicity.
Nobody knows what effect AI and HRW would have had had they been speaking out about LM. We can only theorise.
But Amnesty didn’t remain silent. Ben Zawacki has made numerous comments, both privately and publicly, that reveal him not only as collusive but delusional. His “private” conversations with Abhisit proved utterly useless and seemed only to reveal that Zawacki had been co-opted and compromised.
I have long maintained he should resign. I don’t see any reason to change that view.
Ah Kong and his family
Vichai: Given the oft-cited fact that HM has already stated rather clearly that he should not be above criticism, in deference to his wishes LM law should obviously be reformed.
But we all know that it is that very deference that is being deferred. Lip service being preferred to deference by Thais of a particular political preference.
Ah Kong and his family
“Whether he sent the texts or not is completely irrelevant, he is being punished for his opinion . . .” Mantle (#6)
Let us assume he did send the text. Question is should he be punished?
Well there is a Thai law and I believe this Thai law was drawn in accordance with public opinion (at the time the law was drawn) that would like to prohibit ‘dissemination of offensive anti-Thai monarchy’ b.s.
Next question: Does the 20-year incarceration sentence correspond to the infraction? Most definitely not. Personally I thought a small fine should have been meted against Ah Kong and that’s it.
Final question: Is it time to abolish Thai LM laws. Sure it is . . . but maybe in deference to the deeply revered King Bhumibhol, the Thais would defer this matter.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Nick: I believe you may miss the main point in Andrew Spooner’s comment. He is referring to silences. The silences by HRW and AI are significant. AI may be less significant than some think, but they did get a private meeting with Abhisit when he was PM…. But that may still not be the basic point.
When international NGOs and foreign governments (via their embassies) together remain silent we are getting towards a conspiracy of silences that mesh with the preferred position of royalists in government and the conservative elite who prefer no noise on LM. By not being heard to deplore clear human rights violations each time they are seen means that these governments and NGOs are seen as contingent on human rights.
If nothing else, such human rights contingency means that those governments and international human rights organizations let down their own people and international supporters, respectively.
In specific cases, public silence leads to dire consequences. For example, silence by the U.S. leaves their citizen Joe Gordon rotting in jail even when he has taken the usual “prescribed” action and decided to plead guilty.
An irony of the LM situation is that Thais officials who administer LM are apparently themselves taking illegal or at least unconstitutional actions (see https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/facts-that-should-be-known/). The irony seems to be that to enforce the LM law, state officials willingly break the law and violate the constitution.
The current rising wave of LM action is meant to further enforce silences. AI, HRW and the main foreign embassies have a voice. If they remain silent, then who is to speak in a situation of threat and repression?
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Sorry, guys, for barging again, no disagreement with what is said, but don’t you think that the way thais are not planning any action, collectively, to even mildly show in some numbers, that there are cases of L-M that are handled so forcefully that it damages the image of the country, makes it difficult for things to change?
It could be that all independant (from any color of shirt, any tycoon, any party) possibilities to organize a respectful but meaningful protest have been suppressed a long time (but then, it is a situation unique to Thailand, after all Burma, Cambodia, and of course Egypt, Syria, etc… quite repressive, murderous states, saw protests erupt on the line of non-violent demonstrations untied to any status quo forces).
What is your thought on this? It took over 2 months last year for the army to crackdown and people die (and it was mired in political maneouvering and direct calls for disobeyance that told us we were getiing to the “shooting” point), hard to believe a one-day demonstration that would signal that people do love the Monarch but have enough of how carried away the use of the LM law has gone, can be such a risk (I am talking real demonstration, peaceful and numerous, not 200 with banners of course)?
If thais do not think, or wish, they can do that, there is no way the international community can effect the changes wished. IMO.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
I can tell you from my experience that many Thais who are fluent in English who work in NGOs (and many international organisations such as UN etc) are mostly Salims. They may see the issues of human rights violation in other countries, but they won’t see the violations in their country because the elites have distorted their rationale. So dream on that the UNs/NGOs in Thailand will do something about this.
Ah Kong and his family
In modern times, “Lese Majeste” could not be treated like in the old days when the power over a community or country lies in the hands of the rulers. Nowadays, the Monarchs in democratic countries do not have the absolute power to rule. They are symbols of the sovereignty of the countries they represent and they should function as the unifying factor for the people.
As such, they have to rise above politics and conduct themselves such that they gain the respect of all the people, regardless of gender, religion, race, social status, political leanings, etc. Any discontent or criticism from the people must not be treated with high-handedness for it would lead to further contempt as the reported case has shown.
The only sensible way to handle this delicate situation is to examine the contents of the seditious criticisms and come out with a statement refuting the allegations and at the same time, approach the
offenders and win then over. If they still persist, let the people convict them and not the powers that be.
In this way, respect is gained and the position of Royalty would not be tarnished. We hope and pray that our Royalties would come to understand the important role they play in unifying our Rakyat to live harmoniously as one people, as one nation. Daulat Tuanku! Hidup Rakyat! Hidup Malaysia!
Ah Kong and his family
@Jesse, how could a statement which does not paint the Royals in glosing terms be a threatening message to Abhisit’s assistant? Can you explain, using academic principles and academic reasoning, to support your assertion? If the message is about the Royals, then it has no relevance to Abhisit’s assistant. So can you tell me how could it be regarded as a threatening message to Abhisit’s assistant? (ie. please use existing principles to back up your viewpoint; I am not interested to read unacademic self-made principles).
I wouldn’t even comment on your assertion about “unspecified amount of money” from the Reds is worth a lifetime in prison because it does not even make any grammatical sense.
Anuways, if you fail to see the absurdity of this case that this kind of action gets twenty years imprisonment while people who killed people last year or in 6 October 1976 walk away with no punishment, then there is something serious wrong with your sense of morality.
Malaysia – Defending the Constitution
The will of the people cannot be denied. Politicians must stop all these self-serving power and money politics and sincerely work for the well-being of all the rakyat of Malaysia.
As loyal citizens of our nation, we have to be patriotic to defend our Constitution from being compromised and adulterated. We have to prevent the powers that be from eroding the very basic foundation of our country – our Federal Constitution.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Nick
No, I don’t under or over estimate anything. Please don’t make assumptions.
And the opinion of the international community is important to the Thai “elite” (you use the word “state” – which “state” do you mean? The public one or the hidden one?) – it’s just that that opinion has been successfully co-opted via the moral relativist narrative of “don’t say anything” for far too long.
Listen to Fergal Keane’s interview with Abhisit – Mark Vej immediately retorts back to Keane’s questions with “look at the reaction of the international community last year [during the massacre] – they did and said nothing” to excuse his own actions.
AI has principles that are in its charter. They have been making exceptions to that charter in Thailand and it stinks. Mealy-mouthed excuses don’t cut it and never have.
I would also say the NGO community have very successfully portrayed Thaksin as a corrupt and gross human rights abuser to the international community. They did so very effectively.
Why did they stop with him?
And your final paragraph, if it in anyway reflects the mind set of the NGO community in Thailand, is quite appalling.
Is the suggestion that only certain groups and persons are worthy of having their human rights’ protected? That Ar Kong’s are more saleable than Da Torpedo’s? That’s quite terrifying.
I’m fed up of hearing excuses as to why Amnesty have been silent for years. Their policy on LM has been a complete and total failure. Their job is to protect human rights not the visa of their Thailand-based researcher.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
What will really make someone ill is that none of you actually care about this guy – inside you are gushing with delight because you’ve finally got something you can hold up after weeks, months, years of nothing. Still – since none of you know the contents of the SMS – for all you know it could have contained threats of violence which would land you in prison no matter WHAT COUNTRY you’re from.
Does that stop you from jumping to conclusions and using this for your political agenda? No – not by a long shot. You’re just as bad as the people putting this guy in jail – maybe – depending on what the SMS actually said.
Personally I think LM charges should be rolled over into sedition/treason charges – and aimed at UDD, PTP, Thaksin, and all these fake US funded NGOs like Prachatai (yeah remember it was a conspiracy theory – now it turns out they get millions year-to-year from USAID, NED, Soros, etc). As far as this old guy goes – since I don’t have all the facts – unlike the rest of you – I’m going to reserve my comments until I have all the facts.
The rest of you – Walker doesn’t count – he is a paid shill, this is his job since a productive living is beyond his intellectual means – I suggest you be as impartial and principled as you pretend to be and don’t let people prey on your emotions.
Ah Kong and his family
Whether he sent the texts or not is completely irrelevant, he is being punished for his opinion. When a boundary is put up in the mind of an individual and continuously enforced (les majeste) that boundary will seep into the way he or she thinks about everything. The thai government is merely protecting the superego of the royal establishment while destroying the free thinking ability of its own people. And especially in a buddhist country where the inner peace of an individual is supposedly more important then material wealth, one would think that the royalty, which is supposed to represent “the people”, would be the institution advocating for the spiritual health of the individual by supporting free speech and expression.. sadly it is quite the opposite.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
“Simon”:
“The government has an outright majority in Parliament.”
And that means just that – a majority in parliament. It does not mean that it controls the army and other unelected sectors of the Thai state. The 2006 coup was done for far less sensitive reasons that the 112 issue.
“Andrew Spooner”:
“Amnesty and Zawacki can complain about this case now but Ah Kong’s imprisonment is as much on their hands as anyone else’s.”
You overestimate the influence NGO’s and Amnesty International have on Thailand’s internal politics, and underestimate the willingness of the Thai state to go to extremes when it concerns perceived threats against the monarchy.
Quite possibly you will also find that this case here is a lot better suited as a symbolic case for campaigns by international organizations than the Da Torpedo case.
The toll of flooding on lives and politics
In short what SteveCM (#28) means to say . . . . ahem . . . yes sorry, but . . . let’s wait for Yingluck’s supercommittees to complete its study, o.k.?
If only the Yingluck government will just articulate to the Thai people what really went wrong that her government could be so completely wrong about The Great Y2011 Thai Deluge that resulted in horrific devastations here there everywhere (my suspicion of gross incompetence just could not be erased), then maybe that would be a good start . . .
Because if the Yingluck government could NOT pinpoint or articulate what went wrong, how could I be soothed to believe my government (and its supercommittees) could eliminate those wrongs towards a long-term flood management solution?
My Isan friends are still edgy . . . very very edgy.
Ah Kong and his family
What is certain is that the savagery of Ampon’s sentence is pushing the situation to breaking point. A 61 year old grandfather is rotting in a Thai prison – the message is stark; this could happen to anyone.
We are all Ar Kong now.
http://bit.ly/rUkSAj