India and more importantly China will prove to be the principal players in the conflict in the north and east of the country. Unlike in 1967-68, China’s economic ties with its ‘cousin’ neighbor have become too strong to retaliate any infringement on the border, the Kokang Incident being a case in point despite the Kokang being Han Chinese unlike the Kachin or Wa. Stability is now an overarching concern to China. Hence the recent arbitration between the Burmese govt and the Wa.
As for the Thais, they do bear the brunt of instability in Burma, and I for one am thankful for handling the situation in a more or less humane fashion. Given the historical record of Burmese aggression and invasions, I’m afraid they never had the luxury of being indifferent let alone complacent about their northern neighbor. There’s bound to be some duarble animosity, and now having gained the upper hand there is also bound to be some vindictive behavior quite aside from the employer-employee relationship with its inherent exploitative system underpinned by the illegal status of many immigrants.
In a twisted irony of history, Thailand is on the receiving end of a real Burmese invasion that will stay with its strong cultural and co-religionist influence, not to mention the food. Not an enviable situation they find themselves in.
I have heard the Governor say he expects to oversee the Prince Damrong Library after his retirement, but given that he is only 55 years old, he has 5 years to go before normal retirement age.
Well done, Ricky! I expect the Foreign Minister will say that the Australian Embassy did indeed play a part in Harry’s release from prison. I think I can also predict Ajarn Khamphuan’s response: “Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?”
Couldn’t agree more that change must come from within. It follows that we must strive for our own freedoms both social and economic without relying too much on outside help. ASSK’s commitment to non-violence and reliance on the ‘international community’ is nearly as obsessive as your blaming on the West.
Granted current international situation plays an important part from material as well as cultural/ideological inputs to outright intervention. We must however pull together and put our own house in order ourselves. After all outsiders tend to have a rather different and hidden agenda from what we have.
The Thais are capable of an amazing range of emotions toward Burma, but never indifference. I remember reading a detailed article about the changes in Thai rice-trading policy along the Burmese frontier; any other mud-and-blood issue, examined in specific, shows that some segment of the Thai bureaucratic class is obsessively watching Burma (and wondering about everything from miniscule changes in rice production to opium, armaments and refugees crossing the borders).
One of the problems with Thailand’s short-term system of government (i.e., cyclical military dictatorship, with many period of fast-falling parliaments in-between) is that a relatively constant class of bureaucrats deal with managerial issues (within a given remit) without much reference to long-term planning or vision. This may be a period of a new vision arising, or of an old vision being taken up by a new government (I don’t pretend to know).
As I’ve written about in the past, the Thais do have an over-riding vision of their border with Cambodia; but I sincerely don’t know how the Thai bureaucratic classes “make sense” out of their border with Burma in the 21st century. The espoused unity with the “Tai Yai” (called Tai Nyai where I come from) that was the subject of so much propaganda in the 20th century seems to have disappeared in the 21st; but what exactly has replaced it, I can’t imagine.
There’s an aging generation of Thais who were taught to (literally) regard Shan State and Sipsonpanna as their ancient homeland, and to imagine the immediate future as a mission to reconquer this homeland (I’ve met Thai tourists in person who were visiting Sipsongpanna with this in mind; and I’ve seen the old Thai maps that simply label Shan State “Original Thai Homeland”). With that myth in mind, and the more palpable history of the conquest (and counter-conquest) of Chiang Mai behind them, what do they see when they’re looking ahead?
In my prior article I wrote that, “…the dream that Burma would stabilize itself was apparently more appealing than the annexation of war-torn pieces of the whole.” This begs the question of how believable that dream now is from the perspective of the Thai political classes –and I would include the Thai military commanders as one of those classes. The military, like the experts in rice farming, will be unable to delude themselves overmuch as to how bad the situation within Burma now is.
The day-to-day reality in every part of Thailand that I’ve seen is that the Burmese (illegal migrants) are the lowest rung of the laboring classes: they work the hardest jobs for the lowest wages, and live in the most fear of injury, with the least recourse to medical care, assistance from the police, and so on. If you have your eyes open in Thailand, and if you have any interest in the plight of the poor, it would be hard to go through a week without noticing a Burmese migrant laborer in one job or another (laying bricks, planting rubber trees, etc. etc.).
Although I’ve seen the pure racism (and “caste consciousness”) of the Thais exercised by this phenomenon, I again find it difficult to imagine how this percolates through any vision of future relations between Thailand and Burma –or between Thailand and component (rebel) provinces of Burma.
This is a strange dimension to the Thai-Burmese relationship: almost anyone who owns anything in Thailand has employed Burmese (at least in construction, clearing the land, etc.). They are simultaneously the most familiar of the exploited and yet also a distant and feared “enemy kingdom” (as per Damrong’s simply titled history textbook, “Thai Fight Burma”, and the movies that have given flesh to it for the present generation, as radio dramas did once before).
These dynamics, to my mind, are starkly different from Yunnan (although, as I’ve written before, I think that Yunnan is much more important to the current equation than some other commentators have recognized, simply in terms of how rebel armies feed themselves in a context of scarcity).
“It’s all very well for ASSK to play the game within the rules framed by the generals in a battle of wits but she may yet again face the stark reality of Burmese politics in a way more than she can possibly stomach.”
A well summarized present political scenario. a quagmire created partly by her inept handling of her landslide victory, coupled by the double edge nature of outsider support she should not have sought.
Nobel prize as example: Forever doomed her to adhere to the present “peaceful approach” while getting away with being the unrepentant advocator of the sanction.
Delaying the over all process of economic, healthcare and Education/Knowledge advancement that have produced examples of radical changes witnessed recently in other Asian nations.
The changes must come from within.
The elements of changes that must be nurtured have instead all being stifled if not permanently stunted by the west useless careless ways.
Yes, I’m aware that he posted a link to TKNS and in view of the Thai government/elite/monarchists, this is criticism of the King. In the eyes of the Thai government/elite/monarchists, rest assured, this book is most likely not considered “a reasonably accurate history of Thai politics of the last fifty years.” Handley gets into very sensitive family issues and severely criticizes this “high institution” in Thailand. It’s true that his critique includes positive aspects, but he takes on “the high institution” like no other.
“Not to speak of the fact that the King himself announced some years ago that he is not above ‘criticism’.”
You sound like you don’t live in Thailand at this point. Yvonne, if you really believe this go and set up your table with a bullhorn at the Chulalongkorn equestrian statue and share your criticisms of the King publicly.
You talk of how things should be. I talk about the way things are and how this Joe Gordon is likely to be viewed. Your naivete is refreshing though.
leeyiankun,
I never “found him guilty.” When I first posted about him I wrote if he were guilty.
Joe Gordon (Lerpong Wichaikhammat) is a dual citizen who allegedly posted a link to the TKNS while he was in the US. Leeyiankun, your views on this are very naive. Talking about “law” in this case is a waste of time. I would never post a link to TKNS on US soil and expect to ever visit Thailand knowing how strict their LM law is. They use this “threat to national security” argument when going after people so you’re heading for some serious problems if you dare to play around with them.
Good luck Dr. Somsak Jeamteerasakul in your reform of LM…
“The only way a blogger or webboard-master could get round this would be by disabling all comments, and were does that leave free speech? ”
It leaves it as unfree, of course.
Good point and we see the effects of this in practice. Bangkok Pundit, for instance, although still an interesting blog, used to have a lively comments section. Now the comments are closed and it seems likely this policy is because of cases like Prachatai.
Days ago there was discussion here about Harry N from Australia with assertions about the role the Australian Embassy played in his release from prison.
I wrote to my MP in Australia asking him to ask some questions of the Foreign Minister in parliament to clarify this matter.
I have now received a response to say that a question on notice is being prepared.
As I am about to travel for the next 2 weeks may I ask that Andrew Walker in Canberra report on this matter to readers.
Interesting thoughts, Seh Fah. “The institution” is another of those code words that proliferate in Thai politics. And maybe it is part of a “Baffle the Farang” plot as you say because to the naive and casual observer, “the institution” or even “the highest institution” could mean many things – constitutional monarchy, electoral democracy, the Buddhist religion or even the Army.
And you’re right, it does seem like a quite deliberate and misleading translation by the Bangkok Post.
As for the word and concept citizen, it had a prior history in the Athenian republic and in the Roman republic and was resurrected by the French Revolution along with a lot of other classical notions.
By law, PM doesn’t have power over the central bank and this is a standard to every country in the world. Therefore, by law, Thaksin doesn’t have influence over FIDF, which is a part of BOT. There were similar cases that an individual sue FIDF on the ground that FIDF is a state organization, and for those cases the paintiff all lost the case.
No, I cannot name any MP’s who are publicly committed to to the reform of the LM law, but in the current febrile atmosphere that’s to be expected. However, it is quite a different matter to suggest that those red shirts appointed to government positions will lose interest in Article 112 and its abuse.
This remains an important issue for the red shirt movement, but they know what they are up against, so don’t expect dramatic developments any time soon.
Maratjp -146, If you followed the case, you would know that his alleged ‘insult’ was conducted on US soil. Which there is no law on the subject = he hasn’t done anything wrong.
Now unless Thailand claims judicial authority over US territory, they don’t have a case. On the other hand, if Joe were to visit Thailand, and repeat his crime here, where there IS a law hanging over him. Then they can trial him, US citizen or not.
But seriously, even the Buddha is not exempt from criticism. Can we still call this country, a Buddhist nation?
thomas hoy -140, that’s ‘Hogging the loyalty to the crown’ Aka ‘No one is more truly loyal than us’, which translate that every other group must be disloyal.
Seeing as how small their group is, they better change their tactics, if they don’t want this to go to the Himalayas. How can a house stand upright, if the foundation is corroded by termites?
I don’t understand how you can find him guilty if the trail was a closed one. Perhaps you are privy to the evidence? Have you, inside information on the case? If not, then perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of ‘innocent until proven guilty’?
There’s a phrase in Thai, ‘р╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Чр╣Йр╕вр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕зр╣Др╕Я’ = ‘Genuine Gold does not fear fire’. And certainly if the gold is real, why does it not stand up to scrutiny? Some one has been selling us fool’s gold for years obviously!
A man is judged not by his words, but by his actions. I’ll leave it at that.
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Royal complaint and Prachatai
It seems he is decidedly not an ex-Guv, although he might well be a Northern Thailand Blueblood who is pushing up the daisies. No doubt though he is nailed down well to his perch, however. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/09/13/national/Chiang-Mai-neglecting-straydog-problem-centre-30165170.html
War continues in Kachin State
India and more importantly China will prove to be the principal players in the conflict in the north and east of the country. Unlike in 1967-68, China’s economic ties with its ‘cousin’ neighbor have become too strong to retaliate any infringement on the border, the Kokang Incident being a case in point despite the Kokang being Han Chinese unlike the Kachin or Wa. Stability is now an overarching concern to China. Hence the recent arbitration between the Burmese govt and the Wa.
As for the Thais, they do bear the brunt of instability in Burma, and I for one am thankful for handling the situation in a more or less humane fashion. Given the historical record of Burmese aggression and invasions, I’m afraid they never had the luxury of being indifferent let alone complacent about their northern neighbor. There’s bound to be some duarble animosity, and now having gained the upper hand there is also bound to be some vindictive behavior quite aside from the employer-employee relationship with its inherent exploitative system underpinned by the illegal status of many immigrants.
In a twisted irony of history, Thailand is on the receiving end of a real Burmese invasion that will stay with its strong cultural and co-religionist influence, not to mention the food. Not an enviable situation they find themselves in.
Royal complaint and Prachatai
Nganadeeleg raises a good point.
Mom Pannada’s face still smiles upon Chiang Mai from billboards at every intersection, and from the Chiang Mai Provincial Administration website: http://www.chiangmai.go.th/newweb/governor/history.php
I have heard the Governor say he expects to oversee the Prince Damrong Library after his retirement, but given that he is only 55 years old, he has 5 years to go before normal retirement age.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Ricky #153
Well done, Ricky! I expect the Foreign Minister will say that the Australian Embassy did indeed play a part in Harry’s release from prison. I think I can also predict Ajarn Khamphuan’s response: “Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?”
Regina, Canada, Burma
plan B,
Couldn’t agree more that change must come from within. It follows that we must strive for our own freedoms both social and economic without relying too much on outside help. ASSK’s commitment to non-violence and reliance on the ‘international community’ is nearly as obsessive as your blaming on the West.
Granted current international situation plays an important part from material as well as cultural/ideological inputs to outright intervention. We must however pull together and put our own house in order ourselves. After all outsiders tend to have a rather different and hidden agenda from what we have.
War continues in Kachin State
N.F.,
The Thais are capable of an amazing range of emotions toward Burma, but never indifference. I remember reading a detailed article about the changes in Thai rice-trading policy along the Burmese frontier; any other mud-and-blood issue, examined in specific, shows that some segment of the Thai bureaucratic class is obsessively watching Burma (and wondering about everything from miniscule changes in rice production to opium, armaments and refugees crossing the borders).
One of the problems with Thailand’s short-term system of government (i.e., cyclical military dictatorship, with many period of fast-falling parliaments in-between) is that a relatively constant class of bureaucrats deal with managerial issues (within a given remit) without much reference to long-term planning or vision. This may be a period of a new vision arising, or of an old vision being taken up by a new government (I don’t pretend to know).
As I’ve written about in the past, the Thais do have an over-riding vision of their border with Cambodia; but I sincerely don’t know how the Thai bureaucratic classes “make sense” out of their border with Burma in the 21st century. The espoused unity with the “Tai Yai” (called Tai Nyai where I come from) that was the subject of so much propaganda in the 20th century seems to have disappeared in the 21st; but what exactly has replaced it, I can’t imagine.
There’s an aging generation of Thais who were taught to (literally) regard Shan State and Sipsonpanna as their ancient homeland, and to imagine the immediate future as a mission to reconquer this homeland (I’ve met Thai tourists in person who were visiting Sipsongpanna with this in mind; and I’ve seen the old Thai maps that simply label Shan State “Original Thai Homeland”). With that myth in mind, and the more palpable history of the conquest (and counter-conquest) of Chiang Mai behind them, what do they see when they’re looking ahead?
In my prior article I wrote that, “…the dream that Burma would stabilize itself was apparently more appealing than the annexation of war-torn pieces of the whole.” This begs the question of how believable that dream now is from the perspective of the Thai political classes –and I would include the Thai military commanders as one of those classes. The military, like the experts in rice farming, will be unable to delude themselves overmuch as to how bad the situation within Burma now is.
The day-to-day reality in every part of Thailand that I’ve seen is that the Burmese (illegal migrants) are the lowest rung of the laboring classes: they work the hardest jobs for the lowest wages, and live in the most fear of injury, with the least recourse to medical care, assistance from the police, and so on. If you have your eyes open in Thailand, and if you have any interest in the plight of the poor, it would be hard to go through a week without noticing a Burmese migrant laborer in one job or another (laying bricks, planting rubber trees, etc. etc.).
Although I’ve seen the pure racism (and “caste consciousness”) of the Thais exercised by this phenomenon, I again find it difficult to imagine how this percolates through any vision of future relations between Thailand and Burma –or between Thailand and component (rebel) provinces of Burma.
This is a strange dimension to the Thai-Burmese relationship: almost anyone who owns anything in Thailand has employed Burmese (at least in construction, clearing the land, etc.). They are simultaneously the most familiar of the exploited and yet also a distant and feared “enemy kingdom” (as per Damrong’s simply titled history textbook, “Thai Fight Burma”, and the movies that have given flesh to it for the present generation, as radio dramas did once before).
These dynamics, to my mind, are starkly different from Yunnan (although, as I’ve written before, I think that Yunnan is much more important to the current equation than some other commentators have recognized, simply in terms of how rebel armies feed themselves in a context of scarcity).
Refugee deal – a Malaysian view
East Asia Forum has an interesting article on how Australia can possibly develop an effective refugee policy.
Corruption in Malaysia and Singapore
Thanks rockjianrock #10,
Its interesting that placating the Malay-Muslim agenda is always an overriding concern.
Royal complaint and Prachatai
Since when did he stop being Governor of Chiang Mai?
Regina, Canada, Burma
Ko Moe Aung
“It’s all very well for ASSK to play the game within the rules framed by the generals in a battle of wits but she may yet again face the stark reality of Burmese politics in a way more than she can possibly stomach.”
A well summarized present political scenario. a quagmire created partly by her inept handling of her landslide victory, coupled by the double edge nature of outsider support she should not have sought.
Nobel prize as example: Forever doomed her to adhere to the present “peaceful approach” while getting away with being the unrepentant advocator of the sanction.
Delaying the over all process of economic, healthcare and Education/Knowledge advancement that have produced examples of radical changes witnessed recently in other Asian nations.
The changes must come from within.
The elements of changes that must be nurtured have instead all being stifled if not permanently stunted by the west useless careless ways.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Yvonne,
Yes, I’m aware that he posted a link to TKNS and in view of the Thai government/elite/monarchists, this is criticism of the King. In the eyes of the Thai government/elite/monarchists, rest assured, this book is most likely not considered “a reasonably accurate history of Thai politics of the last fifty years.” Handley gets into very sensitive family issues and severely criticizes this “high institution” in Thailand. It’s true that his critique includes positive aspects, but he takes on “the high institution” like no other.
“Not to speak of the fact that the King himself announced some years ago that he is not above ‘criticism’.”
You sound like you don’t live in Thailand at this point. Yvonne, if you really believe this go and set up your table with a bullhorn at the Chulalongkorn equestrian statue and share your criticisms of the King publicly.
You talk of how things should be. I talk about the way things are and how this Joe Gordon is likely to be viewed. Your naivete is refreshing though.
leeyiankun,
I never “found him guilty.” When I first posted about him I wrote if he were guilty.
Joe Gordon (Lerpong Wichaikhammat) is a dual citizen who allegedly posted a link to the TKNS while he was in the US. Leeyiankun, your views on this are very naive. Talking about “law” in this case is a waste of time. I would never post a link to TKNS on US soil and expect to ever visit Thailand knowing how strict their LM law is. They use this “threat to national security” argument when going after people so you’re heading for some serious problems if you dare to play around with them.
Good luck Dr. Somsak Jeamteerasakul in your reform of LM…
Royal complaint and Prachatai
“The only way a blogger or webboard-master could get round this would be by disabling all comments, and were does that leave free speech? ”
It leaves it as unfree, of course.
Good point and we see the effects of this in practice. Bangkok Pundit, for instance, although still an interesting blog, used to have a lively comments section. Now the comments are closed and it seems likely this policy is because of cases like Prachatai.
Royal complaint and Prachatai
I like the mind map, C.J
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Days ago there was discussion here about Harry N from Australia with assertions about the role the Australian Embassy played in his release from prison.
I wrote to my MP in Australia asking him to ask some questions of the Foreign Minister in parliament to clarify this matter.
I have now received a response to say that a question on notice is being prepared.
As I am about to travel for the next 2 weeks may I ask that Andrew Walker in Canberra report on this matter to readers.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Interesting thoughts, Seh Fah. “The institution” is another of those code words that proliferate in Thai politics. And maybe it is part of a “Baffle the Farang” plot as you say because to the naive and casual observer, “the institution” or even “the highest institution” could mean many things – constitutional monarchy, electoral democracy, the Buddhist religion or even the Army.
And you’re right, it does seem like a quite deliberate and misleading translation by the Bangkok Post.
As for the word and concept citizen, it had a prior history in the Athenian republic and in the Roman republic and was resurrected by the French Revolution along with a lot of other classical notions.
Yes, loyal subjects would be better.
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
chris b – 35
By law, PM doesn’t have power over the central bank and this is a standard to every country in the world. Therefore, by law, Thaksin doesn’t have influence over FIDF, which is a part of BOT. There were similar cases that an individual sue FIDF on the ground that FIDF is a state organization, and for those cases the paintiff all lost the case.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah – 147
No, I cannot name any MP’s who are publicly committed to to the reform of the LM law, but in the current febrile atmosphere that’s to be expected. However, it is quite a different matter to suggest that those red shirts appointed to government positions will lose interest in Article 112 and its abuse.
This remains an important issue for the red shirt movement, but they know what they are up against, so don’t expect dramatic developments any time soon.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Maratjp -146, If you followed the case, you would know that his alleged ‘insult’ was conducted on US soil. Which there is no law on the subject = he hasn’t done anything wrong.
Now unless Thailand claims judicial authority over US territory, they don’t have a case. On the other hand, if Joe were to visit Thailand, and repeat his crime here, where there IS a law hanging over him. Then they can trial him, US citizen or not.
But seriously, even the Buddha is not exempt from criticism. Can we still call this country, a Buddhist nation?
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
thomas hoy -140, that’s ‘Hogging the loyalty to the crown’ Aka ‘No one is more truly loyal than us’, which translate that every other group must be disloyal.
Seeing as how small their group is, they better change their tactics, if they don’t want this to go to the Himalayas. How can a house stand upright, if the foundation is corroded by termites?
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Maratjp -142
I don’t understand how you can find him guilty if the trail was a closed one. Perhaps you are privy to the evidence? Have you, inside information on the case? If not, then perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of ‘innocent until proven guilty’?
There’s a phrase in Thai, ‘р╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Чр╣Йр╕вр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕зр╣Др╕Я’ = ‘Genuine Gold does not fear fire’. And certainly if the gold is real, why does it not stand up to scrutiny? Some one has been selling us fool’s gold for years obviously!
A man is judged not by his words, but by his actions. I’ll leave it at that.