Thanks for your information. You saw what you saw and I have no reason to doubt your account.
I have no delusions that all redshirts are ‘above’ that sort of thuggery, but I have no faith in the Thai MSM at all. Comparing the Thai ‘press’ to Burma’s is like George Bush and Dick Cheney’s claim that they weren’t as bad as the Nazis… ok, they weren’t. The Bangkok Post’s coverage since the election still centers on Abhisit and the Democrats, still makes Osama bin Laden and terrorist al Quaeda, I mean Thaksin and the ‘terrorist’ redshirts, the focus of every story… and they rarely provide any real, verifiable reportage at all.
Perhaps it wasn’t set up, perhaps it wasn’t a media event.
I believe that guilty plea is something which no one should be forced to do. Yes we all know that one who pleads guilty will be pardoned in LM cases. The issue, however, is what guilt did these people commit? They merely exercise their basic human rights to political preference, right to express and hold a political view etc. permissible under Human Rights Convention. How can you force someone to admit that they are guilty when they have no guilt to admit?
I think the decision to plead guilty is the most painful decision LM prisoners must face. They know it is the only way that they will be out of the horrible conditions inside (inhumane) Thai cells, but to admit that they are guilty when they have no guilt to admit, is a serious insult to one’s dignity as a human being. The more I think of it, the more I hate how Thailand is nowadays.
hmmm… its usual for bureaucrats to try to milk each situation to the maximum for their own benefit (isnt it?)
the embassy “activity” may have helped but I assume their is no objective evidence actually linking any particular activity of ordinary (ie non CIA, US military) government agencies with the machinations of the Thai judicial, privy council and royal processes in this or probably any other case
Seh Fah: Can you point to any foreigner who has not been pardoned and served a fraction of their sentence following a guilty plea? That has been the pattern. You say you worked at the embassy. So tell us: Did the embassy put pressure on Harry to plead guilty? Did they tell him things would be easier on him if he did? Tell us more about what the embassy did.
And there isn’t any evidence apart from hearsay – there are no documents and nobody from the Aus Embassy has come forward and said this publicly (I am sorry but anonymous posters on comments forums don’t really count). And even then there are other far larger factors that would have come into play.
There is also, I’m afraid, absolutely no way at all of judging the effectivity of the Aus Embassy’s “quiet diplomacy” versus other forms of nosier Embassy involvement.
Yet, what is absolutely certain is that every LM prisoner who pleads guilty and then completes the right form of grovelling apology is released – Australian or not (eg Thai national Suwicha Thakor).
Certainly the Economist, the NYT and other media have reported very favourably of Najib’s leadership. Just Google it. The only media that has nothing good to say about Najib is the WSJ, which for your info is run by Anwar’s friends. That’s why it frequently publishes articles critical of Najib especially from people like Anwar and John Maggot…oops Mallott.
So you are saying that just because I oppose what Greg says then I am unworthy of debating with?
I think this is exactly what a typical Pakatan supporter in Malaysia behaves and thinks. They use First World benchmark in terms of governance and democratic rights in gauging BN. But when it comes to those who disagree with them and Pakatan, all these idealistic notions are abandoned. They attack their critics mercilessly using undemocratic and underhand tactics without any evidence or basis. They defend Pakatan’s corrupt practices and abuse of power as “small amounts” and “minor abuses”….
In a nutshell, ” Do as I say, not as I do”….such hypocrisy…don’t you think ??
Where have you criticised the Australian Embassy and the efforts of the staff? In your assessment that there was no real evidence of discrete and effective diplomacy. The evidence lies in the fact that Harry was released after serving a fraction of his sentence. Without the efforts of the embassy staff, he could still be in gaol. Simply going for a guilty plea would have been insufficient. What had to be overcome was the desire to make a salutary example of Harry to deter any other naughty Western writers from criticizing CP in print, a matter of considerable importance given the possibility of royal succession sooner rather than later. Persuading the powers that be that 6 months was long enough was a praiseworthy achievement by our embassy.
I don’t think anyone can disagree with the fact that most of govt servants and GLC employees are bumis. I don’t think this is a healthy situation and I concur that this situation requires rectification.
However, it is also a known fact that most non-bumis do not want to work for the govt sector because of the vast discrepancy in the pay between govt and private sectors. That’s why numerous campaigns to entice non bumis for critical jobs as police and army have failed time and time again. At most, the non bumis are only interested in top mgmt level jobs while shunning entry level posts. FYI I am a non bumi too.
As for the contracts, only certain jobs are reserved for bumi companies and not all jobs. That many non bumi companies have obtained govt contracts is on public records but some people just refuse to see it.
However I agree that such arrangements leads to abuses and I think you can already see that Najib is moving to curb these abuses and Ali baba companies. In fact Badawi had already started to put a stop to these abuses.
But I disagree with your assertion that this affirmative action is racist in nature. Racism means active discrimination and I don’t think reserving govt jobs and contracts for bumis qualifies as racism as this has a noble objective to help the economically and socially disadvantaged.
Let’s talk about Chinese companies. It is also a fact of life that more than 90% of the employees of Chinese owned business are of the same ethnicity. While I agree that these companies have no obligations to hire non Chinese, such actions deemed as racist in nature. Unlike the govt which introduced affirmative actions to support the economically weak, these Chinese businesses do not have the same noble excuse for their actions. As such,their actions certainly deserve the label “racism”.
Not only this is an act of racism but by this these companies are making the situation worse by forcing the govt to hire more bumis. This is as without govt jobs these bumis will have no jobs since the Chinese firms’ racist hiring practices.
Well, not every expatriate thinks the same way as you do or as dumb or uninformed as you think they are. Only those people who exclusively read PR on-line media propaganda machines like Sarawak Report, MKini, MI,etc will have the such opinion.
BTW, as for the PR efforts, I don’t see anything wrong with the govt spending money to create a positive picture. After all it is for the benefit of the nation. Certainly Najib did not spend these funds to raise his and his wife’s profiles but for the country’s.
Don’t you know that the state govts of Penang and Selangor spend millions for PR efforts? Do you know Selangor publishes numerous magazines and even websites and TV stations to promote the state govt ? Do you know that LGE has a large team of ex-reporters and media advisers to boost up his image and profile (note, his personal and not the state’s image) ?
Any one with a balanced mind can see that I am not “attacking” you “viciously”. Why is that a level-headed and civilised debate being construed as malicious attempt to attack you ? Is it because you know you can’t beat me in an open debate ? Perhaps you have realised that you have no way of winning so you have accusing me of being a BN agent to avoid having to debate with me .
I don’t think your PhD supervisors will view your tactics to avoid debate and your politically loaded, biased articles very positively.
I think it is highly unbecoming of an academic to run away from a debate after your articles being seriously challenged and exposed as lacking in substance, credibility and depth.
As recompense for my earlier smutty remark, I have just bought the hardcover slipcased set for $97.28 incl. shipping on Amazon.com. There are only two left, so readers will have to hurry.
Where have i criticised the Aus Embassy and the efforts of the staff?
What I actually criticised was an anonymous source.
And relying on anonymous sources, hearsay, rumour, gossip etc is the way most discussions on Thailand go.
Let’s stick to the facts – going for a guilty plea on LM gets you a reduced sentence. Then, to secure a “pardon” for LM, certain acts of supplication must be undertaken.
If you don’t undertake these acts you will not be released.
I was there. The media was already present, not “in tow”, and it seems a little unfair to describe the two men as provocateurs just because they disagreed with the Red Shirts. In fact, it appeared to me that as soon as they arrived, the Red Shirt thugs (a fair description of people who assemble a 10-to-2 advantage before attacking) were summoned from elsewhere.
No real news coverage in Thailand? Have a look at Burma. Despite the restrictions imposed by the lese majeste laws (which I disagree with) Thailand has pretty good coverage. Or is it brutal suppression of press freedoms if the police take action, but entirely understandable dealing with naughty provocateurs if the Red Shirts get heavy-handed?
Is that what really happened? I read the story in the Bangkok Post, but they spin everything, so it was/is difficult for me to figure out if the two who showed up in the middle of the red shirts were provocateurs, complete with media in tow, or whether it was actually as you say. Did you see what happened? I don’t mean on TV.
Given the Thai MSMs relentless campaign to keep Thaksin in the forefront of the news and to continue to vilify the redshirts, with the Bangkok Post in the fore, and no real news coverage in Thailand… or elsewhere, these days… I assume it was a set up.
I was employed at the embassy throughout the Nocolaides saga. I know from personal observation the effort that was put into securing Harry’s early (make that very early – a six-year sentence was reduced to six months) release, and I believe the diplomats involved deserve praise,not ill-informed criticism. Without them, he would still be in gaol. What would you have had to say about their efforts if you had been in Harry’s position?
Please don’t think for one moment that I support the lese majeste legislation or any other restrictions on free speech, which in Thailand are truly draconian and the reason why I use a pseudonym.
Yesterday two men who appeared in front of the Thai parliament to protest peacefully against government assistance in procuring a visa for Thaksin to visit Japan were attacked and beaten up by ten Red Shirt thugs. If the Red Shirts were truly committed to free speech, they would defend the right of ANYONE to exercise that right, including those who disagree with them. Wasn’t it Voltaire who said “I disagree entirely with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it?”
If you don’t like the Hitler/Stalin analogy of two leaders who had much in common despite being on opposite sides, then how about Murderous Mark/Monstrous Maew? One derided as “di tae phut” (only good at talking) and the other as “di tae lae” (only good at lying).
Democracy is a great idea, but unfortunately a view expressed in the preface to the 1662 edition of the Book of Common Prayer remains all too true: “There was never any thing by the wit of man so well devised, or so sure established, which in continuance of time hath not been corrupted”. The Red Shirt action in front of parliament yesterday was yet another example of the corruption of democracy.
@ Killer. It’s not that anyone is afraid to debate you on your so call “Points” and you just want to debate for the sack of debating. There are more than one legitimate international media or bodies that has concurred w/ Greg including the New York Times, WSJ, Economist, etc. Most so-called numbers as reported by government are not validated in everyday life from crime to “growth”, etc Growth, what growth? Is it showing up in the Rakyat’s pocket or in cronies’ pocket. Any sensible person will know better than to debate w/ a person like you. Whenever an international bodies or newspaper or news journal say anything negative about Malaysia, the government and/or the ministers’ response are just like yours. These so-call foreigners do not know anything about Malaysia. Most international experts go with facts and numbers in comparison w/ other nations. Not like comparing that we are not bad if we are not worse.
Malaysian govt (BN ) is not racist, it just so happens that;
1. 90+% of govt servants are bumiputras
2. 90+% of Govt agencies employees are bumiputras
3. 90+ percent of GLCs employees are bumiputras
4. To register for dealings wit the govt, a company must be “bumiputra”, pseudo or otherwise
That my “killer” friend is NOT affirmative action, it is racism.
Please do not talk about “Chinese” companies hiring mainly chinese etc. A private company is a private choice. A government is a public or national institution for ALL Malaysians. Unless you subscribe to the “unofficial” notion that the country is owned by “Tuan Melayu”, then “racism” in govt is wrong.
One does not have to be a Malaysian (non bumi) to know about and have felt racism in the govt. Just ask any expatriate with more than a couple of years in Malaysia. Actions on the ground speaks louder than all the PR spin the govt can pay for. (BTW, that’s paid for by public’s money… a fact that has been forgotten by the current govt)
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Just, fair, accountable!
Thanks for your information. You saw what you saw and I have no reason to doubt your account.
I have no delusions that all redshirts are ‘above’ that sort of thuggery, but I have no faith in the Thai MSM at all. Comparing the Thai ‘press’ to Burma’s is like George Bush and Dick Cheney’s claim that they weren’t as bad as the Nazis… ok, they weren’t. The Bangkok Post’s coverage since the election still centers on Abhisit and the Democrats, still makes Osama bin Laden and terrorist al Quaeda, I mean Thaksin and the ‘terrorist’ redshirts, the focus of every story… and they rarely provide any real, verifiable reportage at all.
Perhaps it wasn’t set up, perhaps it wasn’t a media event.
Thanks for your information.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
I believe that guilty plea is something which no one should be forced to do. Yes we all know that one who pleads guilty will be pardoned in LM cases. The issue, however, is what guilt did these people commit? They merely exercise their basic human rights to political preference, right to express and hold a political view etc. permissible under Human Rights Convention. How can you force someone to admit that they are guilty when they have no guilt to admit?
I think the decision to plead guilty is the most painful decision LM prisoners must face. They know it is the only way that they will be out of the horrible conditions inside (inhumane) Thai cells, but to admit that they are guilty when they have no guilt to admit, is a serious insult to one’s dignity as a human being. The more I think of it, the more I hate how Thailand is nowadays.
Siamese love, sex and war in Canberra
News of the World title, Andrew!
Siamese love, sex and war in Canberra
” The Tale of Khun Chang Khun Phaen” – the most wonderful book I have ever read about Thailand ?
How about The book on King Naresuan or Queen Suriyothai ? Those are wonderful, not this book !
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
hmmm… its usual for bureaucrats to try to milk each situation to the maximum for their own benefit (isnt it?)
the embassy “activity” may have helped but I assume their is no objective evidence actually linking any particular activity of ordinary (ie non CIA, US military) government agencies with the machinations of the Thai judicial, privy council and royal processes in this or probably any other case
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah: Can you point to any foreigner who has not been pardoned and served a fraction of their sentence following a guilty plea? That has been the pattern. You say you worked at the embassy. So tell us: Did the embassy put pressure on Harry to plead guilty? Did they tell him things would be easier on him if he did? Tell us more about what the embassy did.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah
Saying there is no evidence is not a criticism.
And there isn’t any evidence apart from hearsay – there are no documents and nobody from the Aus Embassy has come forward and said this publicly (I am sorry but anonymous posters on comments forums don’t really count). And even then there are other far larger factors that would have come into play.
There is also, I’m afraid, absolutely no way at all of judging the effectivity of the Aus Embassy’s “quiet diplomacy” versus other forms of nosier Embassy involvement.
Yet, what is absolutely certain is that every LM prisoner who pleads guilty and then completes the right form of grovelling apology is released – Australian or not (eg Thai national Suwicha Thakor).
Those who don’t are kept in prison.
That’s a direct, provable comparison.
Academics banned from China
Here is an interesting response to the Bloomberg article:
http://www.thechinabeat.org/?p=3746
Malaysia – a simple institutional analysis
Dear K.Chow
Certainly the Economist, the NYT and other media have reported very favourably of Najib’s leadership. Just Google it. The only media that has nothing good to say about Najib is the WSJ, which for your info is run by Anwar’s friends. That’s why it frequently publishes articles critical of Najib especially from people like Anwar and John Maggot…oops Mallott.
So you are saying that just because I oppose what Greg says then I am unworthy of debating with?
I think this is exactly what a typical Pakatan supporter in Malaysia behaves and thinks. They use First World benchmark in terms of governance and democratic rights in gauging BN. But when it comes to those who disagree with them and Pakatan, all these idealistic notions are abandoned. They attack their critics mercilessly using undemocratic and underhand tactics without any evidence or basis. They defend Pakatan’s corrupt practices and abuse of power as “small amounts” and “minor abuses”….
In a nutshell, ” Do as I say, not as I do”….such hypocrisy…don’t you think ??
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Where have you criticised the Australian Embassy and the efforts of the staff? In your assessment that there was no real evidence of discrete and effective diplomacy. The evidence lies in the fact that Harry was released after serving a fraction of his sentence. Without the efforts of the embassy staff, he could still be in gaol. Simply going for a guilty plea would have been insufficient. What had to be overcome was the desire to make a salutary example of Harry to deter any other naughty Western writers from criticizing CP in print, a matter of considerable importance given the possibility of royal succession sooner rather than later. Persuading the powers that be that 6 months was long enough was a praiseworthy achievement by our embassy.
Malaysia – a simple institutional analysis
Neptunian
I don’t think anyone can disagree with the fact that most of govt servants and GLC employees are bumis. I don’t think this is a healthy situation and I concur that this situation requires rectification.
However, it is also a known fact that most non-bumis do not want to work for the govt sector because of the vast discrepancy in the pay between govt and private sectors. That’s why numerous campaigns to entice non bumis for critical jobs as police and army have failed time and time again. At most, the non bumis are only interested in top mgmt level jobs while shunning entry level posts. FYI I am a non bumi too.
As for the contracts, only certain jobs are reserved for bumi companies and not all jobs. That many non bumi companies have obtained govt contracts is on public records but some people just refuse to see it.
However I agree that such arrangements leads to abuses and I think you can already see that Najib is moving to curb these abuses and Ali baba companies. In fact Badawi had already started to put a stop to these abuses.
But I disagree with your assertion that this affirmative action is racist in nature. Racism means active discrimination and I don’t think reserving govt jobs and contracts for bumis qualifies as racism as this has a noble objective to help the economically and socially disadvantaged.
Let’s talk about Chinese companies. It is also a fact of life that more than 90% of the employees of Chinese owned business are of the same ethnicity. While I agree that these companies have no obligations to hire non Chinese, such actions deemed as racist in nature. Unlike the govt which introduced affirmative actions to support the economically weak, these Chinese businesses do not have the same noble excuse for their actions. As such,their actions certainly deserve the label “racism”.
Not only this is an act of racism but by this these companies are making the situation worse by forcing the govt to hire more bumis. This is as without govt jobs these bumis will have no jobs since the Chinese firms’ racist hiring practices.
Well, not every expatriate thinks the same way as you do or as dumb or uninformed as you think they are. Only those people who exclusively read PR on-line media propaganda machines like Sarawak Report, MKini, MI,etc will have the such opinion.
BTW, as for the PR efforts, I don’t see anything wrong with the govt spending money to create a positive picture. After all it is for the benefit of the nation. Certainly Najib did not spend these funds to raise his and his wife’s profiles but for the country’s.
Don’t you know that the state govts of Penang and Selangor spend millions for PR efforts? Do you know Selangor publishes numerous magazines and even websites and TV stations to promote the state govt ? Do you know that LGE has a large team of ex-reporters and media advisers to boost up his image and profile (note, his personal and not the state’s image) ?
Malaysia – a simple institutional analysis
Greg
Any one with a balanced mind can see that I am not “attacking” you “viciously”. Why is that a level-headed and civilised debate being construed as malicious attempt to attack you ? Is it because you know you can’t beat me in an open debate ? Perhaps you have realised that you have no way of winning so you have accusing me of being a BN agent to avoid having to debate with me .
I don’t think your PhD supervisors will view your tactics to avoid debate and your politically loaded, biased articles very positively.
I think it is highly unbecoming of an academic to run away from a debate after your articles being seriously challenged and exposed as lacking in substance, credibility and depth.
Siamese love, sex and war in Canberra
Andrew
As recompense for my earlier smutty remark, I have just bought the hardcover slipcased set for $97.28 incl. shipping on Amazon.com. There are only two left, so readers will have to hurry.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah
Where have i criticised the Aus Embassy and the efforts of the staff?
What I actually criticised was an anonymous source.
And relying on anonymous sources, hearsay, rumour, gossip etc is the way most discussions on Thailand go.
Let’s stick to the facts – going for a guilty plea on LM gets you a reduced sentence. Then, to secure a “pardon” for LM, certain acts of supplication must be undertaken.
If you don’t undertake these acts you will not be released.
Just, fair, accountable!
john francis lee #5
I was there. The media was already present, not “in tow”, and it seems a little unfair to describe the two men as provocateurs just because they disagreed with the Red Shirts. In fact, it appeared to me that as soon as they arrived, the Red Shirt thugs (a fair description of people who assemble a 10-to-2 advantage before attacking) were summoned from elsewhere.
No real news coverage in Thailand? Have a look at Burma. Despite the restrictions imposed by the lese majeste laws (which I disagree with) Thailand has pretty good coverage. Or is it brutal suppression of press freedoms if the police take action, but entirely understandable dealing with naughty provocateurs if the Red Shirts get heavy-handed?
Just, fair, accountable!
Is that what really happened? I read the story in the Bangkok Post, but they spin everything, so it was/is difficult for me to figure out if the two who showed up in the middle of the red shirts were provocateurs, complete with media in tow, or whether it was actually as you say. Did you see what happened? I don’t mean on TV.
Given the Thai MSMs relentless campaign to keep Thaksin in the forefront of the news and to continue to vilify the redshirts, with the Bangkok Post in the fore, and no real news coverage in Thailand… or elsewhere, these days… I assume it was a set up.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Andrew Spooner #70
I was employed at the embassy throughout the Nocolaides saga. I know from personal observation the effort that was put into securing Harry’s early (make that very early – a six-year sentence was reduced to six months) release, and I believe the diplomats involved deserve praise,not ill-informed criticism. Without them, he would still be in gaol. What would you have had to say about their efforts if you had been in Harry’s position?
Please don’t think for one moment that I support the lese majeste legislation or any other restrictions on free speech, which in Thailand are truly draconian and the reason why I use a pseudonym.
Just, fair, accountable!
Yesterday two men who appeared in front of the Thai parliament to protest peacefully against government assistance in procuring a visa for Thaksin to visit Japan were attacked and beaten up by ten Red Shirt thugs. If the Red Shirts were truly committed to free speech, they would defend the right of ANYONE to exercise that right, including those who disagree with them. Wasn’t it Voltaire who said “I disagree entirely with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it?”
If you don’t like the Hitler/Stalin analogy of two leaders who had much in common despite being on opposite sides, then how about Murderous Mark/Monstrous Maew? One derided as “di tae phut” (only good at talking) and the other as “di tae lae” (only good at lying).
Democracy is a great idea, but unfortunately a view expressed in the preface to the 1662 edition of the Book of Common Prayer remains all too true: “There was never any thing by the wit of man so well devised, or so sure established, which in continuance of time hath not been corrupted”. The Red Shirt action in front of parliament yesterday was yet another example of the corruption of democracy.
Malaysia – a simple institutional analysis
@ Killer. It’s not that anyone is afraid to debate you on your so call “Points” and you just want to debate for the sack of debating. There are more than one legitimate international media or bodies that has concurred w/ Greg including the New York Times, WSJ, Economist, etc. Most so-called numbers as reported by government are not validated in everyday life from crime to “growth”, etc Growth, what growth? Is it showing up in the Rakyat’s pocket or in cronies’ pocket. Any sensible person will know better than to debate w/ a person like you. Whenever an international bodies or newspaper or news journal say anything negative about Malaysia, the government and/or the ministers’ response are just like yours. These so-call foreigners do not know anything about Malaysia. Most international experts go with facts and numbers in comparison w/ other nations. Not like comparing that we are not bad if we are not worse.
Malaysia – a simple institutional analysis
Malaysian govt (BN ) is not racist, it just so happens that;
1. 90+% of govt servants are bumiputras
2. 90+% of Govt agencies employees are bumiputras
3. 90+ percent of GLCs employees are bumiputras
4. To register for dealings wit the govt, a company must be “bumiputra”, pseudo or otherwise
That my “killer” friend is NOT affirmative action, it is racism.
Please do not talk about “Chinese” companies hiring mainly chinese etc. A private company is a private choice. A government is a public or national institution for ALL Malaysians. Unless you subscribe to the “unofficial” notion that the country is owned by “Tuan Melayu”, then “racism” in govt is wrong.
One does not have to be a Malaysian (non bumi) to know about and have felt racism in the govt. Just ask any expatriate with more than a couple of years in Malaysia. Actions on the ground speaks louder than all the PR spin the govt can pay for. (BTW, that’s paid for by public’s money… a fact that has been forgotten by the current govt)