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I’m skeptical when the President of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, with personal ongoing business interests in Thailand probably dependent on his good relations with Thai government officials, says the following to a Bangkok Post Reporter.
When I first arrived here the “I” word in Thai was seldom used.
Not very Buddhist, you know, to go around beginning sentences with “I” and showing that ones egocentric illusion of having a self are not yet understood and abandoned. Tish, Tish. Bad form.
Anyway, as non-Enlightened as ” I” remain, “I” thought that despite some ‘incomplete knowledge of the issues’ Thanong made some telling points.
On the one hand, the holier than thou non-third world, European Union, GERMANS, proclaim they are Tish, Tish superior to those Thais, who don’t know that there is a separation of powers between the Executive and the Judicial branches of Government. Tish, THE German government could hardly be expected to interfere in the backwater local German Court’s holding for ransom the CP’s plane. More, Tish, Tish!
Then comes the open hypocrisy. ‘Heaven forbid, it must be all some kind of mistake, smirks the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, after the fact.’
What, you ask?
Well, THE German Embassy, the formal and legal branch of the GERMAN government in Thailand, openly and loudly INTERFERES in the aforementioned legal process, by DEMANDING OF THAILAND, Achtung! Achtung! “This is the German Government speaking. You Thais will immediately obey our orders and immediately pay the bills as our Judiciary says they are, NOW! ACHTUNG!!!!
What kind of German non-Governmental interference in the Judicial process is this, Thanong asks?
Hmmm, seems a fair question to me. But then I am unenlightened re their moralities, too.
Then, to add insult to injury, Thanon points out the embarrassing and even possibly criminal hypocrisy of the OFFICIAL German Government’s lifting of the ban on Thaksin’s travel to Germany, now that his younger sibling is PM elect of Thailand.
Nothing craven and corrupt about this ‘real politic’ German Government dropping of their enforcement of the International warrant outstanding against Mr. T., now that power has shifted in THAILAND.
Ahhh such shinning paragons of stalwart virtue. Hmmm until the winds changed, that is.
Well, I grant you, Thanongs face at the beginning of his column is kind of scary. Judgmental and condemning without a hint of being forgiving. And, there have been times, when I thought him quite disagreeably over the top and as scary in words as his photo.
how episodes like this are seriously affecting the outside (real?) world’s view of Thailand as a territory where sensible investors will think at least twice before signing any deal with a supposedly competent Thai authority or company
Maybe the view of an actual German businessman in Thailand might be worth noting:
The dispute between the Thai government and a German contractor is unlikely to affect trade and investment between the two countries, German and Thai executives say.
Rolf-Dieter Daniel, president of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, said the court case between Walter Bau AG and the Thai government had nothing to do with businesses
…
But Mr Daniel, who returned from Germany on Wednesday, said there was no concern about investing in Thailand among German firms about such an issue.
“It will not have a long-term impact on bilateral trade and investment and for the short term, I don’t think it would. They are totally different issues,” he said.
The approach of Abhisit and the Foreign Ministry, explaining the situation from a Thai perspective and providing some more up-to-date data is reminiscent of the Bank of Thailand’s approach in admonishing foreign analysts who predicted the baht would collapse a year before it really did. Only in this case, they know they are lying, whereas the BoT actually believed its own lies.
Thanong has a ridiculous piece in The Nation where he sees a German government conspiracy involving the seizure of the plane and the apparent reversal of Thaksin’s persona non grata order. He still doesn’t understand that the German government doesn’t have the ability to interfere with the courts, even if it wanted to. Also letting Thaksin back in is much more likely to be a passive reaction from the Merkel government which really doesn’t have any interest or understanding in anything beyond its own borders or Europe at the most. Thaksin has probably pushed the right buttons to get the right people to lobby the government at a time when the Merkel administration couldn’t care less about Thailand and can’t remember who he is or why they banned him in the first place.
From the bizarre flailing around and incomprehensible statements whirling from the mouths of Abhisit and Kasit, one can only speculate on any pressure being applied to them to get things done.
However, for those self appointed, and generally ineffective, defenders of the establishment it must be very frustrating that they cant get the German government to intimidate their courts and have to be drawn into the real world of seperation of powers and what a final judgement means. That this happens in an almost allegoric way in their twilight days in power must make it even more frustrating with them knowing full well that the incoming “enemy” of the establishment government will no doubt quickly resolve the problem that they themselves only compounded while making themselves look like abject fools.
Until the last day of his tenure , Abhisit will fool no one but himself , by being an absolute buffon and lackey of the elite .
So long to the butcher of Bangkok. No one will miss you .
The Nation has an article quoting Abhisit as saying he has secret new information on the Plane seizure/German construction company case that “will make the German government change its tone”….
The premium put on education in Burmese culture is reflected in the high regard and indeed veneration of teachers. Every year in October a ceremony is held in schools and universities by students to show their gratitude by paying obeisance prostrating before the assembled teachers .
Traditional Buddhist teaching drives home the message to the young from the beginning that next to the Three Gems i.e. the Buddha, the Dhamma (his teachings) and the Sangha (his monks), are included in the Five Boundless Beneficences parents and teachers.
Far from being the butt of cruel jokes and pranks as portrayed in English comics and caricatures, teachers are shown great respect by their pupils and students, past and present, till the end of their days.
Teachers on their part are constantly reminded that their task is like that of gardeners and gemstone polishers to bring out the best in their young charges.
To be illiterate is to be blind as an old Burmese saying goes.
This is an absurd statement thus the “glaringly absent impact” in “the many analyses of Laos” is no surprise.
Even the quoted thesis by Warren Mayes is limited to Vientiane – with an estimated population of 1.5 Mio people in city and province in a country of 6.5 Million.
The Lao youths that actually have access to the internet, are interested in politics and know how to find access to relevant information (!) in a language they understand (!) is MINISCULE.
The few that do have the privilege of getting a look beyond their own noses often come from well-off families that are waist-deep in “the system”. You need to look no farther than Thailand – where you get not a hundred but thousands of foreign-educated MBAs each year – to realize that VERY few of these youths have an inclination to challenge or change “the system”.
Of course I hope that new media can do its magic in Laos, too, but I am afraid that by the time it actually reaches the people, the weak, corrupt system of today will have transformed into a strong, corrupt system.
That’s weird. The link I posted still works for me, but the ones YOU posted don’t. I thought it might be because my computer had cached the .pdf, but I tried the Thai sister version (not previously accessed), and that works for me too:
It is not hard to be in Cambodia or Burma and get to meet people with whom you can have a conversation. It may not always be labeled as intellectual, but a conversation is a conversation and their knowledge and curiosity is unmistakable, it is not just to practive their english, and the importance of education if ofremost in their concerns, either individually or for their children.
Not sure how average thais talk amongst themselves, but a conversation is a rare item to be had in thailand. Of all 3 theravadin neighbours (I am less of a traveler to Laos), as much as I love the place, Thailand is the one where expressed ideas never quite go beyond the cartoonish, and they are usually total philistines and insularized when it comes to anything outside their borders. I remember trying to convince one the first man on the moon was not from the soviet Union. I did not succeed!
Likewise, the row over the Preah Vihar temple showed in the comments thais had over it, how little they know of their own history.
A key comment from “Douglas” (the lawyer who wrote posts linked-to in c161 ): In Thailand’s own opening appellate brief that it filed on 26 July 2011, it says this on page 6: “The New York Convention also affords the [US] district court no power to vacate the Final [Arbitration] Award, and Thailand did NOT ask the district court to do so.”
“Re Abhisit’s response it is hard to fathom why he is bombasting a friendly state that is also an important investor and trading partner with blatantly unsound legal arguments, rather than working quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all.”
It strikes me as comparable to Abhisit’s “handling” of the ICJ’s recent ruling. While initially saying that as merely the “acting” government, they could not take steps themselves but were obliged to leave it to the incoming government to deal with, within just two days he flip-flopped and was making negative statements and declaring decisions at every opportunity.
Difficult not to see this latest involvement as just more of the “poisoned chalice” approach (maybe better “poisoned well”?) of handing over to the PT-led as big and embarrassing a mess as he can manage to create. I doubt the Germans will fall for it any more than did the Cambodians – who make it very clear that they’re just sensibly waiting for the change of government to be completed. But Abhisit will still have set the stage for flinging accusations that the PT government are just not “pro-Thai” enough. It’s patently nonsense – but will find a ready audience amongst the “My country right or wrong” crowd. In that context, assuming YS’ government does manage to work “quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all”, they’ll – but of course – be painted as having “sold out”.
…….
Apologies for “promoting” yet another Pundit post (no commissions, I promise), but he provides further context for how episodes like this are seriously affecting the outside (real?) world’s view of Thailand as a territory where sensible investors will think at least twice before signing any deal with a supposedly competent Thai authority or company: http://asiancorrespondent.com/61117/would-a-sane-person-arbitrate/ (in Thailand with the Thai government?)
So very third world….. Is that really where Thailand sees itself?
I am not always in agreement with the majority view on New Mandala, as many are aware, but this thread in particular highlights for me the importance of having a forum such as this in which all can freely read and contribute without censorship or fear of arrest. The factual legal information assembled here on this case is outstanding.
Re Abhisit’s response it is hard to fathom why he is bombasting a friendly state that is also an important investor and trading partner with blatantly unsound legal arguments, rather than working quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all. He has also unbelievably missed a free kick against Thaksin who, after all, was the one who started the contractual rot by forcing DMT to drop its tolls to a flat rate of 20 baht in 2003 and will instead allow Thaksin a free kick, since the latter will inevitably claim credit for fixing the mess soon after his sister takes office. What an ass!
“Was there something more, that’s now been removed, or has the Nation simply decided to go the DP route and make stuff up as it goes along?”
Bangkok Pundit clarifies this and more in a further blog post* – extract:
1. The Nation carefully words the part about the German Embassy’s statement being removed from its homepage. Initially, Tulsathit incorrectly tweeted that “German Embassy has removed from its web site a statement demanding Thailand to quickly pay compensation”, but as BP pointed out the statement is still available on the Embassy website – English one here and Thai one here. From what BP understands, there was a prominent link on the front page to a secondary page which had the link to the press statement. The secondary page is still there, but the link to the secondary page has been removed from the frontpage of the German Embassy website.
BP: Given the Thai government reaction, the Germans appear to not want to promote the press release although they have not removed the press release, let alone retracted it.
Given his largely Thai experience, I suspect Tulsathit finds it really difficult to distinguish between news/information that’s simply disseminated and a propaganda product that needs to be “promoted”. The Germans (these days) deal in facts whereas the Thai approach is more attuned to (huff and) puff – witness soon-to-be-ex PM Abhisit’s absurd posturing.
In a call to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Political division this morning, a ‘roving reporter’ was informed that the legal aspects of this are being handled by the Attorney General’s office – which we probably know. But it is interesting that the MFA’s website statement on the German embassy statement cites the affair being between the State and a private company. Unclear is the line between state, government, and who the AG is really representing.
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Polis, Raja Di Malaysia [Police, Kings in Malaysia]
[…] in Malaysia, lives in general do not have much value let alone the lives of migrants & refugees. The number of deaths from traffic accidents and the number of deaths at public facilities are all […]
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Yesterday the court announced that a decision about ownership of the plane will take at least until mid September.
And surprising – ownership of the plane will be decided according to Thai Law !
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
I’m skeptical when the President of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, with personal ongoing business interests in Thailand probably dependent on his good relations with Thai government officials, says the following to a Bangkok Post Reporter.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Re Portman #190
When I first arrived here the “I” word in Thai was seldom used.
Not very Buddhist, you know, to go around beginning sentences with “I” and showing that ones egocentric illusion of having a self are not yet understood and abandoned. Tish, Tish. Bad form.
Anyway, as non-Enlightened as ” I” remain, “I” thought that despite some ‘incomplete knowledge of the issues’ Thanong made some telling points.
On the one hand, the holier than thou non-third world, European Union, GERMANS, proclaim they are Tish, Tish superior to those Thais, who don’t know that there is a separation of powers between the Executive and the Judicial branches of Government. Tish, THE German government could hardly be expected to interfere in the backwater local German Court’s holding for ransom the CP’s plane. More, Tish, Tish!
Then comes the open hypocrisy. ‘Heaven forbid, it must be all some kind of mistake, smirks the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, after the fact.’
What, you ask?
Well, THE German Embassy, the formal and legal branch of the GERMAN government in Thailand, openly and loudly INTERFERES in the aforementioned legal process, by DEMANDING OF THAILAND, Achtung! Achtung! “This is the German Government speaking. You Thais will immediately obey our orders and immediately pay the bills as our Judiciary says they are, NOW! ACHTUNG!!!!
What kind of German non-Governmental interference in the Judicial process is this, Thanong asks?
Hmmm, seems a fair question to me. But then I am unenlightened re their moralities, too.
Then, to add insult to injury, Thanon points out the embarrassing and even possibly criminal hypocrisy of the OFFICIAL German Government’s lifting of the ban on Thaksin’s travel to Germany, now that his younger sibling is PM elect of Thailand.
Nothing craven and corrupt about this ‘real politic’ German Government dropping of their enforcement of the International warrant outstanding against Mr. T., now that power has shifted in THAILAND.
Ahhh such shinning paragons of stalwart virtue. Hmmm until the winds changed, that is.
Well, I grant you, Thanongs face at the beginning of his column is kind of scary. Judgmental and condemning without a hint of being forgiving. And, there have been times, when I thought him quite disagreeably over the top and as scary in words as his photo.
But not this time.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
how episodes like this are seriously affecting the outside (real?) world’s view of Thailand as a territory where sensible investors will think at least twice before signing any deal with a supposedly competent Thai authority or company
Maybe the view of an actual German businessman in Thailand might be worth noting:
‘No impact’ from German case
Businessmen see it as a one-on-one dispute
Published: 29/07/2011 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Business
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/economics/249299/no-impact-from-german-case
The dispute between the Thai government and a German contractor is unlikely to affect trade and investment between the two countries, German and Thai executives say.
Rolf-Dieter Daniel, president of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, said the court case between Walter Bau AG and the Thai government had nothing to do with businesses
…
But Mr Daniel, who returned from Germany on Wednesday, said there was no concern about investing in Thailand among German firms about such an issue.
“It will not have a long-term impact on bilateral trade and investment and for the short term, I don’t think it would. They are totally different issues,” he said.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The approach of Abhisit and the Foreign Ministry, explaining the situation from a Thai perspective and providing some more up-to-date data is reminiscent of the Bank of Thailand’s approach in admonishing foreign analysts who predicted the baht would collapse a year before it really did. Only in this case, they know they are lying, whereas the BoT actually believed its own lies.
Thanong has a ridiculous piece in The Nation where he sees a German government conspiracy involving the seizure of the plane and the apparent reversal of Thaksin’s persona non grata order. He still doesn’t understand that the German government doesn’t have the ability to interfere with the courts, even if it wanted to. Also letting Thaksin back in is much more likely to be a passive reaction from the Merkel government which really doesn’t have any interest or understanding in anything beyond its own borders or Europe at the most. Thaksin has probably pushed the right buttons to get the right people to lobby the government at a time when the Merkel administration couldn’t care less about Thailand and can’t remember who he is or why they banned him in the first place.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
From the bizarre flailing around and incomprehensible statements whirling from the mouths of Abhisit and Kasit, one can only speculate on any pressure being applied to them to get things done.
However, for those self appointed, and generally ineffective, defenders of the establishment it must be very frustrating that they cant get the German government to intimidate their courts and have to be drawn into the real world of seperation of powers and what a final judgement means. That this happens in an almost allegoric way in their twilight days in power must make it even more frustrating with them knowing full well that the incoming “enemy” of the establishment government will no doubt quickly resolve the problem that they themselves only compounded while making themselves look like abject fools.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Until the last day of his tenure , Abhisit will fool no one but himself , by being an absolute buffon and lackey of the elite .
So long to the butcher of Bangkok. No one will miss you .
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The Nation has an article quoting Abhisit as saying he has secret new information on the Plane seizure/German construction company case that “will make the German government change its tone”….
http://goo.gl/dCVy8
Wouldn’t it be more prudent for the now ex-Prime Minister Abhisit to step back from this controversy rather than stirring the pot?
Burma’s reading culture
The premium put on education in Burmese culture is reflected in the high regard and indeed veneration of teachers. Every year in October a ceremony is held in schools and universities by students to show their gratitude by paying obeisance prostrating before the assembled teachers .
Traditional Buddhist teaching drives home the message to the young from the beginning that next to the Three Gems i.e. the Buddha, the Dhamma (his teachings) and the Sangha (his monks), are included in the Five Boundless Beneficences parents and teachers.
Far from being the butt of cruel jokes and pranks as portrayed in English comics and caricatures, teachers are shown great respect by their pupils and students, past and present, till the end of their days.
Teachers on their part are constantly reminded that their task is like that of gardeners and gemstone polishers to bring out the best in their young charges.
To be illiterate is to be blind as an old Burmese saying goes.
Corruption and media exposure in Laos
The author (Colum Graham) wrote:
“New media is everywhere in Laos…”
This is an absurd statement thus the “glaringly absent impact” in “the many analyses of Laos” is no surprise.
Even the quoted thesis by Warren Mayes is limited to Vientiane – with an estimated population of 1.5 Mio people in city and province in a country of 6.5 Million.
The Lao youths that actually have access to the internet, are interested in politics and know how to find access to relevant information (!) in a language they understand (!) is MINISCULE.
The few that do have the privilege of getting a look beyond their own noses often come from well-off families that are waist-deep in “the system”. You need to look no farther than Thailand – where you get not a hundred but thousands of foreign-educated MBAs each year – to realize that VERY few of these youths have an inclination to challenge or change “the system”.
Of course I hope that new media can do its magic in Laos, too, but I am afraid that by the time it actually reaches the people, the weak, corrupt system of today will have transformed into a strong, corrupt system.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
BKK lawyer #177
That’s weird. The link I posted still works for me, but the ones YOU posted don’t. I thought it might be because my computer had cached the .pdf, but I tried the Thai sister version (not previously accessed), and that works for me too:
http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/contentblob/3221716/Daten/1469233/Flugzeug_Download.pdf
Never encountered this before.
Burma’s reading culture
It is not hard to be in Cambodia or Burma and get to meet people with whom you can have a conversation. It may not always be labeled as intellectual, but a conversation is a conversation and their knowledge and curiosity is unmistakable, it is not just to practive their english, and the importance of education if ofremost in their concerns, either individually or for their children.
Not sure how average thais talk amongst themselves, but a conversation is a rare item to be had in thailand. Of all 3 theravadin neighbours (I am less of a traveler to Laos), as much as I love the place, Thailand is the one where expressed ideas never quite go beyond the cartoonish, and they are usually total philistines and insularized when it comes to anything outside their borders. I remember trying to convince one the first man on the moon was not from the soviet Union. I did not succeed!
Likewise, the row over the Preah Vihar temple showed in the comments thais had over it, how little they know of their own history.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
For those whose appetites are whetted, yet more legal input (and discussion) on the case available here: http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Possible-Way-End-Arbitration-Row-1799891.S.63148949?qid=96460473-ef3a-4dd3-8157-22c42927b68b&trk=group_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=.gmp_1799891
A key comment from “Douglas” (the lawyer who wrote posts linked-to in c161 ): In Thailand’s own opening appellate brief that it filed on 26 July 2011, it says this on page 6: “The New York Convention also affords the [US] district court no power to vacate the Final [Arbitration] Award, and Thailand did NOT ask the district court to do so.”
The text of that brief is available at: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B288nzKEmOVPMmIzNGMwMjMtNmJjZC00MTVlLWJhOTItMjFmMjMzNWFjODU1&hl=en_GB
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Apologies – 3rd paragraph of preceding comment should read “….handing over to the PT-led government….”
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
c182
“Re Abhisit’s response it is hard to fathom why he is bombasting a friendly state that is also an important investor and trading partner with blatantly unsound legal arguments, rather than working quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all.”
It strikes me as comparable to Abhisit’s “handling” of the ICJ’s recent ruling. While initially saying that as merely the “acting” government, they could not take steps themselves but were obliged to leave it to the incoming government to deal with, within just two days he flip-flopped and was making negative statements and declaring decisions at every opportunity.
Difficult not to see this latest involvement as just more of the “poisoned chalice” approach (maybe better “poisoned well”?) of handing over to the PT-led as big and embarrassing a mess as he can manage to create. I doubt the Germans will fall for it any more than did the Cambodians – who make it very clear that they’re just sensibly waiting for the change of government to be completed. But Abhisit will still have set the stage for flinging accusations that the PT government are just not “pro-Thai” enough. It’s patently nonsense – but will find a ready audience amongst the “My country right or wrong” crowd. In that context, assuming YS’ government does manage to work “quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all”, they’ll – but of course – be painted as having “sold out”.
…….
Apologies for “promoting” yet another Pundit post (no commissions, I promise), but he provides further context for how episodes like this are seriously affecting the outside (real?) world’s view of Thailand as a territory where sensible investors will think at least twice before signing any deal with a supposedly competent Thai authority or company: http://asiancorrespondent.com/61117/would-a-sane-person-arbitrate/ (in Thailand with the Thai government?)
So very third world….. Is that really where Thailand sees itself?
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
I am not always in agreement with the majority view on New Mandala, as many are aware, but this thread in particular highlights for me the importance of having a forum such as this in which all can freely read and contribute without censorship or fear of arrest. The factual legal information assembled here on this case is outstanding.
Re Abhisit’s response it is hard to fathom why he is bombasting a friendly state that is also an important investor and trading partner with blatantly unsound legal arguments, rather than working quietly behind the scenes to ensure a face saving solution for all. He has also unbelievably missed a free kick against Thaksin who, after all, was the one who started the contractual rot by forcing DMT to drop its tolls to a flat rate of 20 baht in 2003 and will instead allow Thaksin a free kick, since the latter will inevitably claim credit for fixing the mess soon after his sister takes office. What an ass!
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
c175
“Was there something more, that’s now been removed, or has the Nation simply decided to go the DP route and make stuff up as it goes along?”
Bangkok Pundit clarifies this and more in a further blog post* – extract:
1. The Nation carefully words the part about the German Embassy’s statement being removed from its homepage. Initially, Tulsathit incorrectly tweeted that “German Embassy has removed from its web site a statement demanding Thailand to quickly pay compensation”, but as BP pointed out the statement is still available on the Embassy website – English one here and Thai one here. From what BP understands, there was a prominent link on the front page to a secondary page which had the link to the press statement. The secondary page is still there, but the link to the secondary page has been removed from the frontpage of the German Embassy website.
BP: Given the Thai government reaction, the Germans appear to not want to promote the press release although they have not removed the press release, let alone retracted it.
Given his largely Thai experience, I suspect Tulsathit finds it really difficult to distinguish between news/information that’s simply disseminated and a propaganda product that needs to be “promoted”. The Germans (these days) deal in facts whereas the Thai approach is more attuned to (huff and) puff – witness soon-to-be-ex PM Abhisit’s absurd posturing.
* http://asiancorrespondent.com/61118/abhisit-ups-the-ante-against-the-german-government/
(Much more on the legal aspects in the rest of the post)
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Banphai #178
You are quite right. But thanks to the tip from johninbkk #108 all the comments can currently still be read at http://m.bangkokpost.com/topstories/249116
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
In a call to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ Political division this morning, a ‘roving reporter’ was informed that the legal aspects of this are being handled by the Attorney General’s office – which we probably know. But it is interesting that the MFA’s website statement on the German embassy statement cites the affair being between the State and a private company. Unclear is the line between state, government, and who the AG is really representing.