The paper on the German system is by Michael Nelson and is available as an MS Word dcoument
The debate on how to improve the draft constitution prepared by the Constitution Drafting Committee included the surprising suggestion that Thailand should adopt the “German model” of personalized proportional representation… A number of Thai-language articles tried to explain and promote this system. Unfortunately, they contained a number of misleading and confusing mistakes that prevented readers from gaining an adequate understanding of this electoral system. Therefore, this brief article tries to provide some additional information in order to clarify the electoral issues involved.
In the elections of 2001, 2005, and 2006 a plurality system with 400 single-member constituencies (SMC) was combined with proportional representation. One hundred of the House of Representatives’ 500 seats were filled from closed and blocked party lists. In order to receive party-list MPs, a political party had to receive at least five percent of the total number of votes, minus invalid ballots and abstentions. Voters thus equally had two votes, one for the constituency candidate and one for the party list. However, unlike in the German model, the constituency and party-list votes were applied separately in a segmented or parallel system,i meaning that “Two electoral systems are used to elect members of a parliamentary chamber separately … These two parts of the segmented system are not connected in any way and their respective electoral formulae are also applied separately.” Systems similar to the one used in Thailand are found in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.
The German model is fundamentally different… in that it is purely proportional. The number of seats that political parties can claim in the House of Representatives (Bundestag) is determined solely by the votes for the respective party-lists, that is the voters’ second vote. “Yet, a fixed number of seats (lower than the seat total) is allocated directly to winning candidates according to the plurality system in single- … member-constituencies determined by the first vote. The seats won by candidates…are subtracted from the party’s seat total. If there are less seats per party than seats per (party) candidates, the elected candidates remain in Parliament as additional members (surplus seats).”
A party’s proportion of seats in parliament is determined by its proportion of votes for the part-list. The seats actually won by parties in constituent elections are subtracted from the total won by the party in the party list vote, and the rest of the party’s allocation is drawn from the party’s list. In the event that more constituent seats are won then have been proportioned by the party list vote, they are allowed to remain, and the total number of seats in the parliament expanded by that amount.
So Germans vote for parties. And for MPs. But their votes for MP are counted and awarde to by plurality, as in Thailand. So the idea is to prevent consistent 3rd place winners from party Z from having no seats at all in parliament.
As I mentioned, I think that voting for parties is voting to turn over your say in the running of your country to a corporation, that it is better not to officially insert such corporations between the people and their government. The Germans, or the ones who invented this system, disagree.
The Thai system enables the subset of voters who vote party-lists, and presumably not everyone does, to select a full quarter of the seats in parliament, totally unrelated to the constituent vote, which now only assigns seats to three-quarters of the parliament.
This makes no (good) sense to me, although it does make a kind of sense to those who invented the system.
It seems not unlike the PAD wing of the Regressive Party’s idea of a partially appointed parliament, with the proportions reversed, for now.
They’d like 30% constituent elected and 70% appointed.
What they’ve got through the Democrat arm of the Regressive Party is 75% constituent elected and 25% appointed by the amalgam of party bosses and those who actually do vote for a party list rather than 80% and 20% as it used to be. For now.
All the animals have rather negative connotations in Thailand.
As a western educated Thai, I can understand why such an ad can be viewed as representative of how low the PAD got or that it might be ‘beneficial’ to PT. But from a local local perspective with no pre-determined perspectives?
I have to say, because of the sponsorship of the Thai embassy, I cannot but help view this conference with some suspicion – in the line of, if I were to submit a paper that may contain contents that may twisted to the extent that it can be charged with LM, I might get arrested even if the paper is not accepted by the conference should I choose to return home for vacation say 3 years from now.
As for the organizers of this conference, if all the Thai embassy does is to provide snacks and drinks as I’ve read, then I would like to suggest you approach any numbers of Thai businesses (esp eateries) in Melbourne – I was there many years and can assure you that many will be more than happy to provide sponsorship – to help students, fellow Thais, Thailand etc. You really DO NOT NEED any money from the Royal Thai Embassy for snacks and drinks.
Still, I have to agree with Andrew and others – it is wrong to boycott the conference or encourage others to boycott it. Whether one attend or not attend this conference should be base on whether it is a good conference for them in terms of exposure and experience. I would attend if I had a relevant paper to submit, and would attend if I were still in Melbourne (providing its not too expensive).
#27 Tarrin,
This is old news I know but I have not been online for a while. There is a conspiracy theory that the govt ran out of budget to get the smart cards for IDs – printer out of order is just a cover story (I am one of those still on yellow slips).
Cheers
Hi,
I would like to ask the author of this article the official reference for his statement that it takes 21% of GDP for social welfare to work. This is not meant as a critique – I only want the valid and official reference. Thanks.
Also note that the Council on Thai Studies (COTS) will be organizing their annual conference at the Center for Southeast Asia Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison on October 7-8, 2011. The first call for papers has just gone out. Those on the TLC list-serv will have seen it.
I would not blame the West education that’s for sure since there are many outstanding school out there that’s really willing to give their students good education and good attitude. Are there a sub-par quality university in the West? certainly, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say the whole system is so corrupted with greed.
Furthermore, I do agree that having population with good english skill is certainly a requirement for every country to be success no doubt, but just because the person couldn’t communicate well and immature doesn’t that the person is stupid or incompetent.
Education is not even the core problem in Thailand, its the political culture.
I think I am in the same boat with you guys and wished I could meet up with you. Like CT, I do not wish to risk ending up in jail for two weeks in BKK accidentally saying the wrong thing or having someone linked me to something I’ve said or posted in the past and for banned texts I’ve sent back, which is more than plenty.
Nevertheless, perhaps we can meet online – do email me at [email protected]
Tarrin: Like CT, I’ve had a good laugh from your comments. Really needed and appreciated it.
I also hope rather hopelessly that my next government would be one I can criticize objectively without fear.
I’d like to see a paper at the Melbourne Conference discussing the political effects of the present King’s refusal (unlike European monarchs and the US President) to submit to the law. As a result, to what extent do the Kings underlings regard the law as a mere tool of their own power? What is the involvement of these monarchist officials in making the laws? To what extent are the people’s representatives in parliament oppressed by official-made law, and prevented from making laws themselves? Is the corruption of Members of Parlaiment encouraged by the monarchists? Has the King’s absolutism enabled the military, as “defenders of the monarchy”, to break the law whenever it suits them? To what extent has the law developed as a tool of oppression of the common people by monarchists? If so, how has this affected respect for the law at all levels in Thai society? To what extent is monarchist power in government linked to the high level of corruption in Thai society? Apart from the bells, smells, fancy clothes, and absurd ritual, is the Thai monarchy just another form of dictatorship?
The Melbourne Conference would be a highly suitable forum for open debate on this subject. Lord Melbourne himself was dismissed in 1834 by King William IV, but returned in the resulting 1835 parliamentary election. No British monarch since then has ever dared to appoint an administration against the decision of the people’s representatives in Parliament. Without a written constitution, the British Parliament has to rely on the precedents of 1649 (execution of Charles 1), 1688 (expulsion of James II), and 1834-35 for the supremacy of laws made by Parliament over the monarch.
Been living in Asia long or an asian yourself? “don’t tell me about common law?”
Haven’t you heard of “traditional” marriage. A lot of S.E. Asian actually goes through “traditional” marriage without doing the “western” imposition of a registered marriage. Don’t know about Thailand, but “traditional” marriage, where the couple go through a traditioal wedding ceremony is regconised as official.
BTW, what’s the big deal about not being able to speak English. I think the Chinese has sent a probe around the moon, with designs and engineering done by non English speaking or writing scientists and engineers!
Don’t even get me started on Koreans, Japanese, Germans, French, Italian etc etc. Beng an Anglophil does not make one a better person nor professional!
I don’t think you are missing something, but you’re not fighting the fight in a way that’s going to be successful. I think the others have decided the best course of action is to exercise one’s right to say what one thinks given the opportunity; and especially to a crowd of people who may not agree with one’s opinions. I feel that only through presenting reason to those locked into the present paradigm of irrationality, that progress be made, however slowly.
Do you feel that if you present, your voice will fall on deaf ears? Would it not be better to add your words to the protest than to remain silent? Even if you perceive that you would be giving legitimacy to the Thai Embassy, this doesn’t mean you have to agree with them. They’re free after all, right? Moreover, if your paper proposal was not accepted, you could reduce the rejection so could add to your bountiful amunition stockpiles for future use in lampooning the regime. Surely it is as Burke said, ‘all that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.’ I understand in some sort of Taoist position, doing nothing can be doing something – but really, as a good man, you are worth more to the movement for change (the movement you identify yourself with) if you are at least voicing that there needs to be change.
Congratulations, Andrew! You are now launched on your independent maverick path as a writer of books and perhaps also a university professor. No more need for bureaucratic review of your work, ideas and thoughts. I look forward to not only the upcoming piece but many more over the years to come.
i’m sorry maybe i’ve missed something here, but a close reading of Pavin’s piece would seem to indicate to me there are some very sound moral reasons why we should not support the conference in melbourne.
I condemn foreign universities particularly in USA UK and Australia whose priority is to gather in foreign student fees from Thai and Asian students for ungraded master’s degrees.
Amongst law firms in Thailand, the cynical view is that foreign paper LLMs at least imply a degree of English language ability that might not be the case had the Thai student not studied overseas, and saves firms the cost of paying for Englsih language lessons. I recall interviewing one Thai lawyer who had on paper a LLB and two foreign LLMs. She was so immature, childish and uncommunicative that I would not have offered her a job as the office cleaner. God knows how she was awarded 3 degrees.
And what does that say about the quality of Thai university degrees and English langauge abilities? Not a lot.
Banharn’s foreign degree is from a French university, as I recall he cannot even speak English. Thaksin’s foreign degree is in criminology. Doubtless that taught him that drug dealers had to be quietly removed without the need for evidence and trials etc.
The point is that Thai universities must raise their standards, and foreign universities should not look cynically upon foreign students as a source of extra income.
What does “married without registration” mean? Don’t say ‘common law marriage” either, it does not exist. In the old days the children of such relationships were referred to as illegitimate. No longer.
I thought the modern custom was to refer to one’s partner, whether that person is male or female.
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Thailand’s electoral rules
The paper on the German system is by Michael Nelson and is available as an MS Word dcoument
A party’s proportion of seats in parliament is determined by its proportion of votes for the part-list. The seats actually won by parties in constituent elections are subtracted from the total won by the party in the party list vote, and the rest of the party’s allocation is drawn from the party’s list. In the event that more constituent seats are won then have been proportioned by the party list vote, they are allowed to remain, and the total number of seats in the parliament expanded by that amount.
So Germans vote for parties. And for MPs. But their votes for MP are counted and awarde to by plurality, as in Thailand. So the idea is to prevent consistent 3rd place winners from party Z from having no seats at all in parliament.
As I mentioned, I think that voting for parties is voting to turn over your say in the running of your country to a corporation, that it is better not to officially insert such corporations between the people and their government. The Germans, or the ones who invented this system, disagree.
The Thai system enables the subset of voters who vote party-lists, and presumably not everyone does, to select a full quarter of the seats in parliament, totally unrelated to the constituent vote, which now only assigns seats to three-quarters of the parliament.
This makes no (good) sense to me, although it does make a kind of sense to those who invented the system.
It seems not unlike the PAD wing of the Regressive Party’s idea of a partially appointed parliament, with the proportions reversed, for now.
They’d like 30% constituent elected and 70% appointed.
What they’ve got through the Democrat arm of the Regressive Party is 75% constituent elected and 25% appointed by the amalgam of party bosses and those who actually do vote for a party list rather than 80% and 20% as it used to be. For now.
Don’t let animals into parliament!
Thank you for noting my mistaking hea for ngu.
All the animals have rather negative connotations in Thailand.
As a western educated Thai, I can understand why such an ad can be viewed as representative of how low the PAD got or that it might be ‘beneficial’ to PT. But from a local local perspective with no pre-determined perspectives?
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne, redux
I have to say, because of the sponsorship of the Thai embassy, I cannot but help view this conference with some suspicion – in the line of, if I were to submit a paper that may contain contents that may twisted to the extent that it can be charged with LM, I might get arrested even if the paper is not accepted by the conference should I choose to return home for vacation say 3 years from now.
As for the organizers of this conference, if all the Thai embassy does is to provide snacks and drinks as I’ve read, then I would like to suggest you approach any numbers of Thai businesses (esp eateries) in Melbourne – I was there many years and can assure you that many will be more than happy to provide sponsorship – to help students, fellow Thais, Thailand etc. You really DO NOT NEED any money from the Royal Thai Embassy for snacks and drinks.
Still, I have to agree with Andrew and others – it is wrong to boycott the conference or encourage others to boycott it. Whether one attend or not attend this conference should be base on whether it is a good conference for them in terms of exposure and experience. I would attend if I had a relevant paper to submit, and would attend if I were still in Melbourne (providing its not too expensive).
Thailand can afford equitable social welfare
Worth looking at the editorial in today’s Bangkok Post:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/240312/putting-money-in-wrong-place
Agen DominoQQ Online Paling Populer
#27 Tarrin,
This is old news I know but I have not been online for a while. There is a conspiracy theory that the govt ran out of budget to get the smart cards for IDs – printer out of order is just a cover story (I am one of those still on yellow slips).
Cheers
Thailand can afford equitable social welfare
Hi,
I would like to ask the author of this article the official reference for his statement that it takes 21% of GDP for social welfare to work. This is not meant as a critique – I only want the valid and official reference. Thanks.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne, redux
Also note that the Council on Thai Studies (COTS) will be organizing their annual conference at the Center for Southeast Asia Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison on October 7-8, 2011. The first call for papers has just gone out. Those on the TLC list-serv will have seen it.
Scorecard on Abhisit and Yingluck
Erewhon – 24
I would not blame the West education that’s for sure since there are many outstanding school out there that’s really willing to give their students good education and good attitude. Are there a sub-par quality university in the West? certainly, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say the whole system is so corrupted with greed.
Furthermore, I do agree that having population with good english skill is certainly a requirement for every country to be success no doubt, but just because the person couldn’t communicate well and immature doesn’t that the person is stupid or incompetent.
Education is not even the core problem in Thailand, its the political culture.
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
I will also post the link here. Bests.
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
CT, Tarrin, Tukkae:
I think I am in the same boat with you guys and wished I could meet up with you. Like CT, I do not wish to risk ending up in jail for two weeks in BKK accidentally saying the wrong thing or having someone linked me to something I’ve said or posted in the past and for banned texts I’ve sent back, which is more than plenty.
Nevertheless, perhaps we can meet online – do email me at [email protected]
Tarrin: Like CT, I’ve had a good laugh from your comments. Really needed and appreciated it.
I also hope rather hopelessly that my next government would be one I can criticize objectively without fear.
Nuomi
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Andrew,
Is there any way to know when you publish this other than the Twitter feed?
Thanks
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne, redux
I’d like to see a paper at the Melbourne Conference discussing the political effects of the present King’s refusal (unlike European monarchs and the US President) to submit to the law. As a result, to what extent do the Kings underlings regard the law as a mere tool of their own power? What is the involvement of these monarchist officials in making the laws? To what extent are the people’s representatives in parliament oppressed by official-made law, and prevented from making laws themselves? Is the corruption of Members of Parlaiment encouraged by the monarchists? Has the King’s absolutism enabled the military, as “defenders of the monarchy”, to break the law whenever it suits them? To what extent has the law developed as a tool of oppression of the common people by monarchists? If so, how has this affected respect for the law at all levels in Thai society? To what extent is monarchist power in government linked to the high level of corruption in Thai society? Apart from the bells, smells, fancy clothes, and absurd ritual, is the Thai monarchy just another form of dictatorship?
The Melbourne Conference would be a highly suitable forum for open debate on this subject. Lord Melbourne himself was dismissed in 1834 by King William IV, but returned in the resulting 1835 parliamentary election. No British monarch since then has ever dared to appoint an administration against the decision of the people’s representatives in Parliament. Without a written constitution, the British Parliament has to rely on the precedents of 1649 (execution of Charles 1), 1688 (expulsion of James II), and 1834-35 for the supremacy of laws made by Parliament over the monarch.
Scorecard on Abhisit and Yingluck
Erewhon #24,
Been living in Asia long or an asian yourself? “don’t tell me about common law?”
Haven’t you heard of “traditional” marriage. A lot of S.E. Asian actually goes through “traditional” marriage without doing the “western” imposition of a registered marriage. Don’t know about Thailand, but “traditional” marriage, where the couple go through a traditioal wedding ceremony is regconised as official.
BTW, what’s the big deal about not being able to speak English. I think the Chinese has sent a probe around the moon, with designs and engineering done by non English speaking or writing scientists and engineers!
Don’t even get me started on Koreans, Japanese, Germans, French, Italian etc etc. Beng an Anglophil does not make one a better person nor professional!
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Poor form, Reuters.. Well done Andrew!
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Looks like my question at #31 has been answered.
Your courage & self sacrifice is an inspiration – Thanks.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne, redux
Jim Taylor,
I don’t think you are missing something, but you’re not fighting the fight in a way that’s going to be successful. I think the others have decided the best course of action is to exercise one’s right to say what one thinks given the opportunity; and especially to a crowd of people who may not agree with one’s opinions. I feel that only through presenting reason to those locked into the present paradigm of irrationality, that progress be made, however slowly.
Do you feel that if you present, your voice will fall on deaf ears? Would it not be better to add your words to the protest than to remain silent? Even if you perceive that you would be giving legitimacy to the Thai Embassy, this doesn’t mean you have to agree with them. They’re free after all, right? Moreover, if your paper proposal was not accepted, you could reduce the rejection so could add to your bountiful amunition stockpiles for future use in lampooning the regime. Surely it is as Burke said, ‘all that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.’ I understand in some sort of Taoist position, doing nothing can be doing something – but really, as a good man, you are worth more to the movement for change (the movement you identify yourself with) if you are at least voicing that there needs to be change.
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Congratulations, Andrew! You are now launched on your independent maverick path as a writer of books and perhaps also a university professor. No more need for bureaucratic review of your work, ideas and thoughts. I look forward to not only the upcoming piece but many more over the years to come.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne, redux
i’m sorry maybe i’ve missed something here, but a close reading of Pavin’s piece would seem to indicate to me there are some very sound moral reasons why we should not support the conference in melbourne.
Scorecard on Abhisit and Yingluck
Re Tarrin 11 and John 15
I condemn foreign universities particularly in USA UK and Australia whose priority is to gather in foreign student fees from Thai and Asian students for ungraded master’s degrees.
Amongst law firms in Thailand, the cynical view is that foreign paper LLMs at least imply a degree of English language ability that might not be the case had the Thai student not studied overseas, and saves firms the cost of paying for Englsih language lessons. I recall interviewing one Thai lawyer who had on paper a LLB and two foreign LLMs. She was so immature, childish and uncommunicative that I would not have offered her a job as the office cleaner. God knows how she was awarded 3 degrees.
And what does that say about the quality of Thai university degrees and English langauge abilities? Not a lot.
Banharn’s foreign degree is from a French university, as I recall he cannot even speak English. Thaksin’s foreign degree is in criminology. Doubtless that taught him that drug dealers had to be quietly removed without the need for evidence and trials etc.
The point is that Thai universities must raise their standards, and foreign universities should not look cynically upon foreign students as a source of extra income.
Scorecard on Abhisit and Yingluck
What does “married without registration” mean? Don’t say ‘common law marriage” either, it does not exist. In the old days the children of such relationships were referred to as illegitimate. No longer.
I thought the modern custom was to refer to one’s partner, whether that person is male or female.