“A scholar must interrogate their statements carefully. Available information about Than Shwe and the ruling elite of Myanmar often mixes second-hand rumors, conspiracy theories, common assumptions and allegedly first-hand information that is very difficult to verify. Presenting this medley of information as facts makes it challenging to distinguish the credibility of those facts, and to appreciate the narrative built upon them”
Summarize well the interest in Myanmar as an example.
Does that explain well once and for all eternity the attitude of the West especially its claim to help Myanmar through present policy?
Not until this fact, that present quagmire,the direct contribution by the West very policy of “mentir par omission et commission”, is recognized and address accordingly the next episode of nightmare awaits.
The War on Drugs was an abomination. No doubt about that.
But it certainly wasn’t just Thaksin involved in supporting and sustaining that particular bloodbath even though I completely agree that Dr T (and everyone else) should be fully investigated and held accountable.
Yet, to segue from the WoD to the Bangkok Massacre is just a logical step too far.
They are completely unconnected and unrelated matters. To be honest the WoD has no bearing at all on what happened in 2010 and it is almost entirely irrelevant to the context of the Red Shirt protests which were entirely about the denigration of democracy.
Furthermore, if you want to see Thaksin’s reaction to mass, sustained political protests you only have to look to 2006 and the PAD.
He called an election (when he didn’t need to) which Abhisit boycotted because he knew he would get hammered, fairly and squarely.
And when that election was annulled, Thaksin lined up another election for October 2006. Which he would have won as well.
Instead the Thai Army staged a completely illegal coup, destroying the remaining vestiges of Thai democracy. In my view that coup has never really ended and since 2006 the Army have repeatedly sought to abrogate democracy and civilian rule.
Interestingly, for those who endlessly attempt to falsely portray the WoD as the context for the present predicament, the Thai Army’s role in creating the conditions for the Bangkok Massacre 2010 are conveniently forgotten or, as in the case of HRW’s report, reduced to a footnote.
Les, all you have is a theory born from an overactive imagination. Or maybe you just watch too much ASTV?
1) Blame all those who now absolutely have to depend on this present government to trade as less than well intended.
Free funeral org as an eg. A CBO serving the citizenry.
Many others ones exist on contributions from silent expats here @ New Mandala.
The ultimate irony is those who profess to care most about the Karen here choose to be blind to the CBOs established by Karen, with help from the juntas that serve Karen people as well as everyone.
Including the victims of KNU as well as former SPDC.
(AndrewSpooner#108) In principle, I don’t see what’s so inherently ‘nutty’ about the idea that Thaksin sought some bloodshed, “staged the massacre of his own supporters.”
One should recall that the PAD seemed to be pursuing such tactics in 2008. There is a reference to this in one of the WikiLeaks cables (http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2008/11/08BANGKOK3317.html)
————
┬╢9. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX believed PAD continued to aim for a violent clash that would spark a coup. He asserted that he had dined on October 6 with a leading PAD figure (NFI), who explained that PAD would provoke violence during its October 7 protest at the parliament. The unnamed PAD figure predicted (wrongly) that the Army would intervene against the
BANGKOK 00003317 003.2 OF 003
government by the evening of October 7. XXXXXXXXXXXX asserted to us that PAD remained intent on a conflict that would generate at least two dozen deaths and make military intervention appear necessary and justified.
————
And of course, the PAD did get their martyrs, whom they made keen use of for some time, including pulling the Queen to one of the funerals.
Does your pooh-poohing this idea extend to the Yellow Shirts? And please spare us the heavy-handed sarcasm about lizard men with laser pistols — it cheapens your argument.
With this ongoing insane witchhunt where people who say they don’t love the King have been expelled from university, expelled from work, subject to physical/verbal threats from the fanatics, as well as the possibility of them being charged for ‘lese majeste’, how can people say what they actually think?
Most western academics and commentators (am kind of generalising here, going by the contributors name / surnames) = logical reasoned arguements and points.
Thai (inluding an academic convenor’s) responses to points they do not agree with = denials, dismissals (including dissmissing what’s probably the biggest and most important social and political issue/movement in Thailand at the moment as a yawner’), defensiveness, personality attacks, irrational and petty point scoring, and arguements rooted in emotion rather than reason…
See Vichai – that’s how it’s done….. read and learn.
Drop in the odd emotive exaggeration like “rabidly attacked” (even if you weren’t) and then say nothing much more – nothing that can be explicitly contradicted, that is. Ask a few hypothetical questions, “mull” aloud a few possibilities and – voila – job done. Seed sown and very little chance of any comeback.
Well I really didn’t foresee my theory on the ‘men in black’ and their purpose would be so rabidly attacked. I guess we need to look back at the history a little so let’s see how this goes.
Let’s deal with the ‘virtual bodies’ first. After the 2009 protest a claim was made by the UDD of many killed by the army. This claim was made in the press, in parliament by the Pheu Thai and on this blog. At the time we knew of four people killed. Two were security men from Bangkapi who may have been red shirt supporters but the talk was of gangster involvement. The other two were Muslims from a Petchburi Road community who were shot by red shirt supporters. HRW, who it’s hard to claim was pro-government, says ‘At least 123 people were injured, including four soldiers’, but no mention of deaths.
The claim was that the other bodies were ‘disappeared’ based on what had occurred in 1992. The problem was that 1992 we knew there were missing people. They had relatives, they had pictures, it couldn’t be hidden. In 2009 we were promised the same proof. Nick Nostitz will support that because he always said he would supply it on NM when we he got it, but it never came. I think it’s fair to say there are no more bodies from the 2009 protest to show up.
So were bodies important to the UDD and Thaksin after 2009? Well certainly they and Phue Thai were making a big thing about Abhisit killing the people after the protest was broken up. Videos were even shown during a parliamentary censure debate if I remember properly.
So it being important to Thaksin and the UDD can be surmised, but would Thaksin be capable of the evil I suggested of wanting bodies in 2010? I have never met the man personally so how could I say such a thing? Yet, let’s look at what Thaksin was capable of when in power. He did produce dead bodies in his war on drugs. Ralph may be correct in HRW over-counting the number, but I think there were bodies that weren’t virtual, no matter what the exact number. Any more? Well Thaksin came in to power with his mind set to crush the low level insurgency in the south. He can apologies now, as he did two weeks ago, but he did create quite a few bodies down there.
So what does my pet theory need. Three things really.
One, did Thaksin want bodies in 2009? Well his supporter were certainly claiming them after the protest.
Two, was Thaksin hard hearted enough to arrange want bodies in 2010? Well we can look back on his war on drugs and policies in the south to decide whether we can believe this.
Three, did it happen? Who knows until proof surfaces if that ever happens. That’s why it’s a theory because it hasn’t been proved. Mind you if you are gambling man or woman I wouldn’t bet the house against it being true.
“Re the destruction of Democrat posters–one more nail to the coffin of free and fair elections…”
No disagreement from me on that. So many nails – not least the Democrat governor of Bangkok ordering municipal employees to scour the city and remove PT election posters. Were they all somehow “illegal”? Needless to say – no mention of offending Democrat posters being removed by those employees.
Another nail – Abhisit carrying out what should surely have been a non-political Constitutional function – his televised address to the nation announcing the formal dissolution of parliament and the election date….. which he turned into a pointedly political campaign speech. In that context, and considering his expressed wish and signed agreement to keep the monarchy out of the election, one can only wonder at the decision to display quite so prominently throughout the broadcast a photograph of himself seated with HMK. See http://tinyurl.com/3l37gtb
Vichai, as I noted above, in a delayed response (97) via the spam filter, the HRW Report ‘Descent into Chaos’ cannot be read to “validate Vichai’s story of the Khattiya/Thaksin ‘urban civil war’ theme.” You might want to read the report a bit more carefully or stop making claims that are not made in the report by its authors (at least as far as I can ascertain).
Dude, you can stick to you strange fact-free “theories” about what I write and about what actually what went down while the rest of us will get on and ask the questions that need to be asked.
Sustaining the myth that Thaksin staged the massacre of his own supporters is right up there with just about the nuttiest bs I’ve read about what happened last year.
The only evidence of that occurring is to be found in Les Abbey’s and your imaginations.
Next you’ll be saying that lizard men armed with laser pistols control planet earth.
Kind of makes you wonder about Newin Chidchob – doesnt it? Seen and photographed hugging the PM after the deal. I suspect they’ll have trouble acting against Thaksin, but then, TiT, no outrage r stupidity is too outrageous or stupid..
No, Vichai_N – that’s not how it works. You make the categorical claims and statements – you produce the compelling evidence to back up your “story”. Admit that what you choose to present as being established fact is actually no more than just another theory/speculation and I might even start to consider offering and arguing the case for alternative views.
Both here and elsewhere, you’ve been asked repeatedly to make the case for what you assert. Repeatedly, you don’t. Repeatedly trundling out the same collection of inconclusive cherry-picked “source” material, creatively paraphrasing what doesn’t suit and occasionally tossing in a novel garnish of something equally inconclusive and equally misrepresented does not make the case. Just which part of that don’t you understand?
Frankly, I’m tired of re-stating the obvious to you time after time – unlikely I’ll bother writing anything new about your stuff again. It’s sorely tempting to follow your own cut&paste model of re-cycling – but I consider that insulting to others reading these posts. Doesn’t seem to bother you, though.
I gave my story Spooner and SteveCM. All the circumstances and the utube video clips and the independent newspaper accounts (Wall St. Journal, Time, et al) corroborate the storyline about the Khattiya/Thaksin ‘urban civil war’ intentions for the recent Red Shirts via its Black Shirts brigade’s rampage of M79 grenade launchers, assault rifles, incendiary ‘prai vs. amaat’ Red Shirt leaders rhetorics, widespread arson. utube clips of ‘fake Red Shirt dead bodies’, utub clip of a Red Shirt brains blown out by an assault rifle clearly coming from the direction of the Red Shirt camp . . .
Even the HRW Report ‘Descent into Chaos’ would validate Vichai’s story of the Khattiya/Thaksin ‘urban civil war’ theme.
To get an overview, just watch Sombat’s recent creative activities on his own youtube channel. Search for р╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕нр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╕зр╕╡. “Kaen Norn” – the lowest “down to earth”- level in an organisation chart – that’s the way he indentifies himself.
While he is clearly the informal leader of his “Red Sunday” Group and very talkative in this role, I saw him on TV a few months ago as he seemed very uncomfortable and stumbling for words addressing the crowd of Tens of Thousands at Democracy Monument.
He is clearly no Jatuporn or Nattawut who celebrate their appearance on stage
What a nonsense, 2% has the courage to speak their mind. If people are not free to express their opinion, how can they express themselves in a poll. I am pretty sure that the number of people that are at the very least at unease with the people around the palace is staggering. Anyone often visiting the countryside must have noticed the disappearance of portraits during the last years inside the houses of people.
Still wonder how a person who lost his voting rights can officially/openly help a political party without this having some consequences initiatd by he ECT. In the 2007 election, even a father could not take a picture with his candidate son, if he had lost his voting rights as a member of TRT’s executive board. In fact, one would expect that Thaksin stops his phone-ins etc., now that the royal decree is in effect.
Re the destruction of Democrat posters–one more nail to the coffin of free and fair elections…
# 1 – It always seemed to me that the sticker “We Love the King” is modeled after the popular “I Love NY” sign (and many other I Love xxx with a heart shape replacing the word Love).
What’s interesting is that when it came to Thailand; the pronoun “I” is translated into “We”. Anybody knows why?
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Review of State and Society in Modern Rangoon
“A scholar must interrogate their statements carefully. Available information about Than Shwe and the ruling elite of Myanmar often mixes second-hand rumors, conspiracy theories, common assumptions and allegedly first-hand information that is very difficult to verify. Presenting this medley of information as facts makes it challenging to distinguish the credibility of those facts, and to appreciate the narrative built upon them”
Summarize well the interest in Myanmar as an example.
Does that explain well once and for all eternity the attitude of the West especially its claim to help Myanmar through present policy?
Not until this fact, that present quagmire,the direct contribution by the West very policy of “mentir par omission et commission”, is recognized and address accordingly the next episode of nightmare awaits.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Les Abbey,
The War on Drugs was an abomination. No doubt about that.
But it certainly wasn’t just Thaksin involved in supporting and sustaining that particular bloodbath even though I completely agree that Dr T (and everyone else) should be fully investigated and held accountable.
Yet, to segue from the WoD to the Bangkok Massacre is just a logical step too far.
They are completely unconnected and unrelated matters. To be honest the WoD has no bearing at all on what happened in 2010 and it is almost entirely irrelevant to the context of the Red Shirt protests which were entirely about the denigration of democracy.
Furthermore, if you want to see Thaksin’s reaction to mass, sustained political protests you only have to look to 2006 and the PAD.
He called an election (when he didn’t need to) which Abhisit boycotted because he knew he would get hammered, fairly and squarely.
And when that election was annulled, Thaksin lined up another election for October 2006. Which he would have won as well.
Instead the Thai Army staged a completely illegal coup, destroying the remaining vestiges of Thai democracy. In my view that coup has never really ended and since 2006 the Army have repeatedly sought to abrogate democracy and civilian rule.
Interestingly, for those who endlessly attempt to falsely portray the WoD as the context for the present predicament, the Thai Army’s role in creating the conditions for the Bangkok Massacre 2010 are conveniently forgotten or, as in the case of HRW’s report, reduced to a footnote.
Les, all you have is a theory born from an overactive imagination. Or maybe you just watch too much ASTV?
When sanctions attack
“do no business with Myanmar [b] citizens[/b]”.
The epitome of sanctions inevitable results.
1) Blame all those who now absolutely have to depend on this present government to trade as less than well intended.
Free funeral org as an eg. A CBO serving the citizenry.
Many others ones exist on contributions from silent expats here @ New Mandala.
The ultimate irony is those who profess to care most about the Karen here choose to be blind to the CBOs established by Karen, with help from the juntas that serve Karen people as well as everyone.
Including the victims of KNU as well as former SPDC.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
(AndrewSpooner#108) In principle, I don’t see what’s so inherently ‘nutty’ about the idea that Thaksin sought some bloodshed, “staged the massacre of his own supporters.”
One should recall that the PAD seemed to be pursuing such tactics in 2008. There is a reference to this in one of the WikiLeaks cables (http://wikileaks.ch/cable/2008/11/08BANGKOK3317.html)
————
┬╢9. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX believed PAD continued to aim for a violent clash that would spark a coup. He asserted that he had dined on October 6 with a leading PAD figure (NFI), who explained that PAD would provoke violence during its October 7 protest at the parliament. The unnamed PAD figure predicted (wrongly) that the Army would intervene against the
BANGKOK 00003317 003.2 OF 003
government by the evening of October 7. XXXXXXXXXXXX asserted to us that PAD remained intent on a conflict that would generate at least two dozen deaths and make military intervention appear necessary and justified.
————
And of course, the PAD did get their martyrs, whom they made keen use of for some time, including pulling the Queen to one of the funerals.
Does your pooh-poohing this idea extend to the Yellow Shirts? And please spare us the heavy-handed sarcasm about lizard men with laser pistols — it cheapens your argument.
2 per cent don’t love monarchy
With this ongoing insane witchhunt where people who say they don’t love the King have been expelled from university, expelled from work, subject to physical/verbal threats from the fanatics, as well as the possibility of them being charged for ‘lese majeste’, how can people say what they actually think?
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
‘Thai-ness’ and this thread…
Most western academics and commentators (am kind of generalising here, going by the contributors name / surnames) = logical reasoned arguements and points.
Thai (inluding an academic convenor’s) responses to points they do not agree with = denials, dismissals (including dissmissing what’s probably the biggest and most important social and political issue/movement in Thailand at the moment as a yawner’), defensiveness, personality attacks, irrational and petty point scoring, and arguements rooted in emotion rather than reason…
‘Thai-ness’ indeed
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
See Vichai – that’s how it’s done….. read and learn.
Drop in the odd emotive exaggeration like “rabidly attacked” (even if you weren’t) and then say nothing much more – nothing that can be explicitly contradicted, that is. Ask a few hypothetical questions, “mull” aloud a few possibilities and – voila – job done. Seed sown and very little chance of any comeback.
You might also like to review the “Razzle Dazzle” sequence from the musical “Chicago”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn5-VN3SH1o
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Well I really didn’t foresee my theory on the ‘men in black’ and their purpose would be so rabidly attacked. I guess we need to look back at the history a little so let’s see how this goes.
Let’s deal with the ‘virtual bodies’ first. After the 2009 protest a claim was made by the UDD of many killed by the army. This claim was made in the press, in parliament by the Pheu Thai and on this blog. At the time we knew of four people killed. Two were security men from Bangkapi who may have been red shirt supporters but the talk was of gangster involvement. The other two were Muslims from a Petchburi Road community who were shot by red shirt supporters. HRW, who it’s hard to claim was pro-government, says ‘At least 123 people were injured, including four soldiers’, but no mention of deaths.
The claim was that the other bodies were ‘disappeared’ based on what had occurred in 1992. The problem was that 1992 we knew there were missing people. They had relatives, they had pictures, it couldn’t be hidden. In 2009 we were promised the same proof. Nick Nostitz will support that because he always said he would supply it on NM when we he got it, but it never came. I think it’s fair to say there are no more bodies from the 2009 protest to show up.
So were bodies important to the UDD and Thaksin after 2009? Well certainly they and Phue Thai were making a big thing about Abhisit killing the people after the protest was broken up. Videos were even shown during a parliamentary censure debate if I remember properly.
So it being important to Thaksin and the UDD can be surmised, but would Thaksin be capable of the evil I suggested of wanting bodies in 2010? I have never met the man personally so how could I say such a thing? Yet, let’s look at what Thaksin was capable of when in power. He did produce dead bodies in his war on drugs. Ralph may be correct in HRW over-counting the number, but I think there were bodies that weren’t virtual, no matter what the exact number. Any more? Well Thaksin came in to power with his mind set to crush the low level insurgency in the south. He can apologies now, as he did two weeks ago, but he did create quite a few bodies down there.
So what does my pet theory need. Three things really.
One, did Thaksin want bodies in 2009? Well his supporter were certainly claiming them after the protest.
Two, was Thaksin hard hearted enough to arrange want bodies in 2010? Well we can look back on his war on drugs and policies in the south to decide whether we can believe this.
Three, did it happen? Who knows until proof surfaces if that ever happens. That’s why it’s a theory because it hasn’t been proved. Mind you if you are gambling man or woman I wouldn’t bet the house against it being true.
Thaksin is back!
c4
“Re the destruction of Democrat posters–one more nail to the coffin of free and fair elections…”
No disagreement from me on that. So many nails – not least the Democrat governor of Bangkok ordering municipal employees to scour the city and remove PT election posters. Were they all somehow “illegal”? Needless to say – no mention of offending Democrat posters being removed by those employees.
Another nail – Abhisit carrying out what should surely have been a non-political Constitutional function – his televised address to the nation announcing the formal dissolution of parliament and the election date….. which he turned into a pointedly political campaign speech. In that context, and considering his expressed wish and signed agreement to keep the monarchy out of the election, one can only wonder at the decision to display quite so prominently throughout the broadcast a photograph of himself seated with HMK. See http://tinyurl.com/3l37gtb
Yes indeed – many nails……
Thaksin is back!
Yes, Simon, you’re right, there’s a lot of banned politicians but some seem more banned than others.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Vichai, as I noted above, in a delayed response (97) via the spam filter, the HRW Report ‘Descent into Chaos’ cannot be read to “validate Vichai’s story of the Khattiya/Thaksin ‘urban civil war’ theme.” You might want to read the report a bit more carefully or stop making claims that are not made in the report by its authors (at least as far as I can ascertain).
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Vichai N.
Dude, you can stick to you strange fact-free “theories” about what I write and about what actually what went down while the rest of us will get on and ask the questions that need to be asked.
Sustaining the myth that Thaksin staged the massacre of his own supporters is right up there with just about the nuttiest bs I’ve read about what happened last year.
The only evidence of that occurring is to be found in Les Abbey’s and your imaginations.
Next you’ll be saying that lizard men armed with laser pistols control planet earth.
Thaksin is back!
@Srithanonchai ^
Kind of makes you wonder about Newin Chidchob – doesnt it? Seen and photographed hugging the PM after the deal. I suspect they’ll have trouble acting against Thaksin, but then, TiT, no outrage r stupidity is too outrageous or stupid..
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
c106
“What are your storylines SteveCM and Spooner?”
No, Vichai_N – that’s not how it works. You make the categorical claims and statements – you produce the compelling evidence to back up your “story”. Admit that what you choose to present as being established fact is actually no more than just another theory/speculation and I might even start to consider offering and arguing the case for alternative views.
Both here and elsewhere, you’ve been asked repeatedly to make the case for what you assert. Repeatedly, you don’t. Repeatedly trundling out the same collection of inconclusive cherry-picked “source” material, creatively paraphrasing what doesn’t suit and occasionally tossing in a novel garnish of something equally inconclusive and equally misrepresented does not make the case. Just which part of that don’t you understand?
Frankly, I’m tired of re-stating the obvious to you time after time – unlikely I’ll bother writing anything new about your stuff again. It’s sorely tempting to follow your own cut&paste model of re-cycling – but I consider that insulting to others reading these posts. Doesn’t seem to bother you, though.
2 per cent don’t love monarchy
End the “lese majeste” law first and I’ll tell you what I think.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
I gave my story Spooner and SteveCM. All the circumstances and the utube video clips and the independent newspaper accounts (Wall St. Journal, Time, et al) corroborate the storyline about the Khattiya/Thaksin ‘urban civil war’ intentions for the recent Red Shirts via its Black Shirts brigade’s rampage of M79 grenade launchers, assault rifles, incendiary ‘prai vs. amaat’ Red Shirt leaders rhetorics, widespread arson. utube clips of ‘fake Red Shirt dead bodies’, utub clip of a Red Shirt brains blown out by an assault rifle clearly coming from the direction of the Red Shirt camp . . .
Even the HRW Report ‘Descent into Chaos’ would validate Vichai’s story of the Khattiya/Thaksin ‘urban civil war’ theme.
What are your storylines SteveCM and Spooner?
Anti-lese majeste flash mob
To get an overview, just watch Sombat’s recent creative activities on his own youtube channel. Search for р╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕нр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╕зр╕╡. “Kaen Norn” – the lowest “down to earth”- level in an organisation chart – that’s the way he indentifies himself.
While he is clearly the informal leader of his “Red Sunday” Group and very talkative in this role, I saw him on TV a few months ago as he seemed very uncomfortable and stumbling for words addressing the crowd of Tens of Thousands at Democracy Monument.
He is clearly no Jatuporn or Nattawut who celebrate their appearance on stage
2 per cent don’t love monarchy
What a nonsense, 2% has the courage to speak their mind. If people are not free to express their opinion, how can they express themselves in a poll. I am pretty sure that the number of people that are at the very least at unease with the people around the palace is staggering. Anyone often visiting the countryside must have noticed the disappearance of portraits during the last years inside the houses of people.
Thaksin is back!
Still wonder how a person who lost his voting rights can officially/openly help a political party without this having some consequences initiatd by he ECT. In the 2007 election, even a father could not take a picture with his candidate son, if he had lost his voting rights as a member of TRT’s executive board. In fact, one would expect that Thaksin stops his phone-ins etc., now that the royal decree is in effect.
Re the destruction of Democrat posters–one more nail to the coffin of free and fair elections…
Anti-lese majeste flash mob
# 1 – It always seemed to me that the sticker “We Love the King” is modeled after the popular “I Love NY” sign (and many other I Love xxx with a heart shape replacing the word Love).
What’s interesting is that when it came to Thailand; the pronoun “I” is translated into “We”. Anybody knows why?