An interesting take on the Vietnamese ‘elite’ that seems relevant today with respect to the ‘elite’ in Thailand. Changing the place names and tenses :
[Thailand] is not a poor [country]; the soil could provide a bounteous life for all. But man is moved by the need for spiritual values: a sense of power over his own destiny, a sense of respect from his fellow man . . . decade[s of extra-judicial] killing and [imprisonment] in Thailand provide evidence of the superhuman sacrifices which some men, deprived of these values, will endure to redress their deprivation; yet it also provides a melancholy example of the lengths other men will go, already abundantly enjoying these values, to perpetuate their privilege…
The genuine contribution to production by the elites [has] diminished. There [is] essentially less need for these people. They maintain ceremonial functions… essentially, this [has become] a fragment of society that [has] lost economic and political roles but retained the formal functions of command.
What a rotten yesterday. The only silver lining was the parasitic royal family had to pay for their own party. The people pay anyway, but this time round they didn’t send the bill to the taxpayers and finally picked up the tab themselves for once.
I say parasitism though it should be parasitoid given Philip’s views:
“In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, to contribute something to solving overpopulation”
Philip has no idea of course that when the peasants took Versailles many accounts described the human vivisection that took place.
First of all I am certainly not the “tool” of anyone’s agenda.
Secondly, I believe the case made against the Red Shirts is made ad infinitum elsewhere – they have an entire state, a mostly supine media and huge parts of a vast military arrayed against them. This is as the same time as their own media is being shutdown and censored. If my tiny bit of blogging coverage gives some overall balance to that, then I am happy. But, in reality, my voice is quite small and inconsequential in comparison.
For the record, I am not a Red Shirt and have never claimed to be one. I am sympathetic to the grass roots of that movement and other elements contained within its broad sweep. Back in 2005 and 2006 I was also sympathetic to those holding Thaksin to account (might be harder to find but I am in print with my views at that time). Most of the things I write now are criticising the govt and the military and are not necessarily “pro-Red”. Because I have taken this line people assume I am a “Red”.
I too have some good contacts within the Thai government and completed a very in-depth interview, one to one, with FM Korn (who gave me 90mins of his time), at the Thai parliament.
However, I don’t just take “their word” on what has happened nor would I trapse around to meetings with various ambassadors in Bangkok repeating, word for word, what these government contacts told me and then asserted it as “fact”. I believe that in the case of Da T Ben Zawacki did exactly that and sought no further advice.
As for the AI Malaysia intervention – I take the line put out by Jimmy Buchanan. That if AI had already been doing their job in Thailand this would have been a non-issue. But they aren’t so it is. People with AI Thailand are already aggrieved with Ben Zawacki.
Yes, am fully aware of all the ramifications of 112, Da T and the shades of grey inbetween. Here’s what I wrote in comment 28 above
“Who was in government when she was arrested? Thaksin’s PPP.
Who was donating large amounts of money to her every month at the beginning? A key ally of PM Abhisit’s govt.”
You do some really excellent work Nick – I have just chosen to work in a different way, that is all. And yes, I’d be more than happy to meet you next time I am in Bangkok.
I believe that you want Da Torpedo released. But fact is that the Da Torpedo issue touches on far wider reaching matters of this conflict, and so does the 112 debate, and all that is related to this. This complicates the matter enormously. Again, one day, we can (and should) talk about this in person.
I am beginning to run out of time. Sorry. Lets leave it at this for now. Please just note me being quite uncomfortable with all this, and thanks for the nice comment.
Andrew,
sorry, my wrong, i should have read the article with more attention (i really am a bit overworked right now).
But that still leaves my criticism over your summary statements regarding the MFA leaving the impression that it is on the same side as Kasit’s (previous) association with the PAD. Why should organizations not also be in contact with the state? Should i, as a journalist, not be in contact with the state as well as with the state’s opponents?
Also, as this whole thing has been initiated by Ben’s actions regarding the hosting of Amsterdam by the Malaysia MI office (as you state in the article). Don’t you see that this is potentially very compromising position for AI, maybe as damaging as the 2008 events and AI here in Thailand?
Or do you think that Amsterdam in his capacity as a lawyer for the UDD is that of a neutral investigator?
The article is wide sweeping, and includes also a very emotive “he is exposed as colluding directly with a government that has used snipers against civilians, imprisoned hundreds, tortured many, cluster bombed their neighbours and which has one of the most draconian censorship regimes on earth.” This may all have happened, but for the sake of balance it should be included that some parts of the Red Shirts were not exactly peaceful as well. Things rarely are just black and white, and definitely not here in this ongoing mess.
I am feeling a bit uncomfortable with all this. Sorry about that. I also feel uncomfortable with the letter issued straight away (which – sorry again – looks to me a bit like mobbing). Are you sure that you just report “the facts”, or just one side of the facts involved? And that you are not having been made a tool of another agenda that involves more than just human rights, etc.?
Excuse these questions, they are out of concern, not malice. AI, human rights issues, campaigning and internal politics of these organizations are not my field of expertise.
But some of the things you wrote that are basis of your criticism touch my field, and there i noticed some simplifications that are misleading, in my opinion.
I want Da T released. Simple. No agenda, nothing else. Implying that those who have campaigned for her release have another agenda seems a bit misplaced.
Yep completely aware that BZ works for the International Secretariat (which, incidentally, is a private company) and is separate to AI Thailand.
When I published my story I sent AI (this is alongside months and months of futile attempts trying to get them to answer on anything) a correspondence stating I would be willing to publish any statement they want on these allegations. No response.
I really want AI and BZ to explain the allegations I have raised. If they don’t respond that is really a problem for them and not me.
As for ethics – well, I would it call it deeply unethical to basically censor other AI members in the name of neutrality while you are engaged in far less than neutral activities yourself. And all the while representing an organisation that loudly claims accountability and transparency and asks for public donations to sustain it (which are then used to pay off former AI members to the tune of US$900,000 – a detail AI initially refused to admit).
The public interest argument is an interesting one when disclosing private correspondence. As the email I have is a classic “leak” from a third party and catches someone who claims to be both neutral and publicly accountable in a lie, there is, in my opinion, public interest in publishing it. In fact, I can’t think of a better example of when a private correspondence should be published.
I am more than aware of the excellent work you do and your credibility. But how you choose to work doesnt give you (or anyone else) an exclusive right to comment on matters in Thailand, wherever they may live. And, as I am sure you’re more than aware, opinion pieces are as much a part of journalism as boots on the ground reporting. Of course we could get into a larger debate about the nature of objectivity and whether it is acheivable or not or whether it is just a guiding principle or whether just shop window dressing or etc etc. If we did we might get sucked into the whirlpool of structuralism, post-structuralsim, postmodernism and New Mandala would soon disappear up its own backside.
Personally, I thought the royal wedding gave an example of how the Thai monarchy could be, and how ridiculous it is for certain powers in Thailand to make it a choice merely between the status quo and wanting “lom chao” – thus leading to the equally ridiculous persecution of eminent scholars and thinkers like Ajarn Somsak.
This thought may well have gone through the minds of increasing numbers of Thais too.
To quote myself from nearly a year ago (and it’s only got worse since then):
The LM laws are the glue that binds everything that keeps the status quo.
All debate on the systemic problems is stifled by the 15 year jail sentence hanging over the heads of anyone who steps too far in talking about (or even seeking) the truth – those that the brainwashing has not affected, then either play along to reap the rewards (vested interest) or opt for self censorship (understandable self interest).
It’s a brilliant setup, the trap is now complete – after decades of one sided propaganda, no political party can touch on the subject of detoothing LM without committing political suicide. http://nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/2010/06/bye-bye-thailand.html
Thank’s to Darunee, Surachai & others for having the courage of their convictions – I lack your courage, and I hope by calling a spade a spade I have not made things worse for you.
Goodluck to you, and to Thailand.
Please read my article properly before commenting on my ethics.
The BZ email was provided to by a third party who was very concerned about BZ’s actions. This source is a respected and experienced human rights activist.
I state this in the first paragraph of my story. This activist gave me permission to use this correspondence.
And yes I have asked AI about 5times to comment on the contents of this email stretching including BZ – they never responded.
And thanks for your political analysis of the PAD. Some interesting thoughts.
Also journalism has its rules, procedures and issues of ethical conduct. It’s not an anything goes world. Therefore my questions to Andrew, which i would like to have answered (by him) before i comment any further.
I am not willing to add my opinion on lese majeste, and my personal perception on this and related issues as they are far too sensitive to just sprout more opinions in public adding to the overwhelming white noise of existing perception based on opinions.
Different than most here involved in the discussion – i am not using an alter ego, i live in Thailand and don’t sit in Europe, Australia or in the US. And so do the majority of people who may have to go to jail, or may get killed over this issue if and when this topic gets more aggravated and polarized, also to some degree because of people that will not have to ever fear the consequences of their armchair activism. Sorry if i am lacking the correct political convictions, my street perspective gives me little time and space to formulate political ideologies over this conflict other than that i am sick of having to see people (regardless of affiliation) die.
“The heart and truth of the matter” is unfortunately a lot more complex than your emotive and superficial statement of “an egregious human rights abuse to protect their image (… and dare I say, business!)”. And from journalistic articles, or academic studies, concerning this matter, i expect a reflection of the complications involved, and if possible, also the the views and perceptions of both sides reflected, for the sake of balance. That is especially important with such a sensitive subject matter.
And that is all i will say presently over Da Torpedo, the 112 issue, and related matters.
Last time I checked, the Royal wedding is the matter of the British Monarchy…what does the Royal wedding of the British Monarchy have anything to do with Thai Monarchy?
But let me go off-topic a little to make some comments about the British Monarchy. Personally I have a considerable admiration and respect to the British Monarchy…because they do not interfere with politics-a quality which the Thai Monarchy should learn to adopt for their own survival in the future when the propaganda machine no longer works…
Jeff Savage. Look up the name in the internet (many had already forgotten). Jeff Savage was the hardcore Red Shirt fanatic living in Thailand who was caught on utube urging people to join him to loot and burn Central World to the ground.
Since I am not farang here and dont really care about the royal wedding so I guess I will just keep continue, you know, that’s what I like to do and it it not one bit tiresome.
Ann Brady (18) could not have done better if she had actually meant to demonstrate the evil of monarchism. If you think that these days, it is no more than a harmless outlet for snobs, think again. The chief enemy of the rule of law is the rule of men.
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Review of War Comes to Long An
An interesting take on the Vietnamese ‘elite’ that seems relevant today with respect to the ‘elite’ in Thailand. Changing the place names and tenses :
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
What a rotten yesterday. The only silver lining was the parasitic royal family had to pay for their own party. The people pay anyway, but this time round they didn’t send the bill to the taxpayers and finally picked up the tab themselves for once.
I say parasitism though it should be parasitoid given Philip’s views:
“In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, to contribute something to solving overpopulation”
Philip has no idea of course that when the peasants took Versailles many accounts described the human vivisection that took place.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick
First of all I am certainly not the “tool” of anyone’s agenda.
Secondly, I believe the case made against the Red Shirts is made ad infinitum elsewhere – they have an entire state, a mostly supine media and huge parts of a vast military arrayed against them. This is as the same time as their own media is being shutdown and censored. If my tiny bit of blogging coverage gives some overall balance to that, then I am happy. But, in reality, my voice is quite small and inconsequential in comparison.
For the record, I am not a Red Shirt and have never claimed to be one. I am sympathetic to the grass roots of that movement and other elements contained within its broad sweep. Back in 2005 and 2006 I was also sympathetic to those holding Thaksin to account (might be harder to find but I am in print with my views at that time). Most of the things I write now are criticising the govt and the military and are not necessarily “pro-Red”. Because I have taken this line people assume I am a “Red”.
I too have some good contacts within the Thai government and completed a very in-depth interview, one to one, with FM Korn (who gave me 90mins of his time), at the Thai parliament.
However, I don’t just take “their word” on what has happened nor would I trapse around to meetings with various ambassadors in Bangkok repeating, word for word, what these government contacts told me and then asserted it as “fact”. I believe that in the case of Da T Ben Zawacki did exactly that and sought no further advice.
As for the AI Malaysia intervention – I take the line put out by Jimmy Buchanan. That if AI had already been doing their job in Thailand this would have been a non-issue. But they aren’t so it is. People with AI Thailand are already aggrieved with Ben Zawacki.
Yes, am fully aware of all the ramifications of 112, Da T and the shades of grey inbetween. Here’s what I wrote in comment 28 above
“Who was in government when she was arrested? Thaksin’s PPP.
Who was donating large amounts of money to her every month at the beginning? A key ally of PM Abhisit’s govt.”
You do some really excellent work Nick – I have just chosen to work in a different way, that is all. And yes, I’d be more than happy to meet you next time I am in Bangkok.
Andrew
Intimidation of Somsak Jeamteerasakul
Just for a slightly different take on the British royal wedding to provide a little balance.
http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2011/05/royal-sex-kate-public-monarchy
A Thai response to Princess Chulabhorn’s interview
Patummar Ratchasi: You sound like you would also be “proud to be a North Korean”……
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Andrew,
I believe that you want Da Torpedo released. But fact is that the Da Torpedo issue touches on far wider reaching matters of this conflict, and so does the 112 debate, and all that is related to this. This complicates the matter enormously. Again, one day, we can (and should) talk about this in person.
I am beginning to run out of time. Sorry. Lets leave it at this for now. Please just note me being quite uncomfortable with all this, and thanks for the nice comment.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Andrew,
sorry, my wrong, i should have read the article with more attention (i really am a bit overworked right now).
But that still leaves my criticism over your summary statements regarding the MFA leaving the impression that it is on the same side as Kasit’s (previous) association with the PAD. Why should organizations not also be in contact with the state? Should i, as a journalist, not be in contact with the state as well as with the state’s opponents?
Also, as this whole thing has been initiated by Ben’s actions regarding the hosting of Amsterdam by the Malaysia MI office (as you state in the article). Don’t you see that this is potentially very compromising position for AI, maybe as damaging as the 2008 events and AI here in Thailand?
Or do you think that Amsterdam in his capacity as a lawyer for the UDD is that of a neutral investigator?
The article is wide sweeping, and includes also a very emotive “he is exposed as colluding directly with a government that has used snipers against civilians, imprisoned hundreds, tortured many, cluster bombed their neighbours and which has one of the most draconian censorship regimes on earth.” This may all have happened, but for the sake of balance it should be included that some parts of the Red Shirts were not exactly peaceful as well. Things rarely are just black and white, and definitely not here in this ongoing mess.
I am feeling a bit uncomfortable with all this. Sorry about that. I also feel uncomfortable with the letter issued straight away (which – sorry again – looks to me a bit like mobbing). Are you sure that you just report “the facts”, or just one side of the facts involved? And that you are not having been made a tool of another agenda that involves more than just human rights, etc.?
Excuse these questions, they are out of concern, not malice. AI, human rights issues, campaigning and internal politics of these organizations are not my field of expertise.
But some of the things you wrote that are basis of your criticism touch my field, and there i noticed some simplifications that are misleading, in my opinion.
Review of War Comes to Long An
Thank you very much for making both the review and the interview available.
I had to smile when I read Mike Montesano ask Jeffrey Race :
in reference to his work in explaining how “individual preferences relate to collective action”, to which Jeffrey Race replied :
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick
Few other thoughts.
I want Da T released. Simple. No agenda, nothing else. Implying that those who have campaigned for her release have another agenda seems a bit misplaced.
Yep completely aware that BZ works for the International Secretariat (which, incidentally, is a private company) and is separate to AI Thailand.
When I published my story I sent AI (this is alongside months and months of futile attempts trying to get them to answer on anything) a correspondence stating I would be willing to publish any statement they want on these allegations. No response.
I really want AI and BZ to explain the allegations I have raised. If they don’t respond that is really a problem for them and not me.
As for ethics – well, I would it call it deeply unethical to basically censor other AI members in the name of neutrality while you are engaged in far less than neutral activities yourself. And all the while representing an organisation that loudly claims accountability and transparency and asks for public donations to sustain it (which are then used to pay off former AI members to the tune of US$900,000 – a detail AI initially refused to admit).
The public interest argument is an interesting one when disclosing private correspondence. As the email I have is a classic “leak” from a third party and catches someone who claims to be both neutral and publicly accountable in a lie, there is, in my opinion, public interest in publishing it. In fact, I can’t think of a better example of when a private correspondence should be published.
I am more than aware of the excellent work you do and your credibility. But how you choose to work doesnt give you (or anyone else) an exclusive right to comment on matters in Thailand, wherever they may live. And, as I am sure you’re more than aware, opinion pieces are as much a part of journalism as boots on the ground reporting. Of course we could get into a larger debate about the nature of objectivity and whether it is acheivable or not or whether it is just a guiding principle or whether just shop window dressing or etc etc. If we did we might get sucked into the whirlpool of structuralism, post-structuralsim, postmodernism and New Mandala would soon disappear up its own backside.
Andrew
Intimidation of Somsak Jeamteerasakul
Personally, I thought the royal wedding gave an example of how the Thai monarchy could be, and how ridiculous it is for certain powers in Thailand to make it a choice merely between the status quo and wanting “lom chao” – thus leading to the equally ridiculous persecution of eminent scholars and thinkers like Ajarn Somsak.
This thought may well have gone through the minds of increasing numbers of Thais too.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
112 has us all spooked – Checkmate!
To quote myself from nearly a year ago (and it’s only got worse since then):
The LM laws are the glue that binds everything that keeps the status quo.
All debate on the systemic problems is stifled by the 15 year jail sentence hanging over the heads of anyone who steps too far in talking about (or even seeking) the truth – those that the brainwashing has not affected, then either play along to reap the rewards (vested interest) or opt for self censorship (understandable self interest).
It’s a brilliant setup, the trap is now complete – after decades of one sided propaganda, no political party can touch on the subject of detoothing LM without committing political suicide.
http://nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/2010/06/bye-bye-thailand.html
Thank’s to Darunee, Surachai & others for having the courage of their convictions – I lack your courage, and I hope by calling a spade a spade I have not made things worse for you.
Goodluck to you, and to Thailand.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick
Please read my article properly before commenting on my ethics.
The BZ email was provided to by a third party who was very concerned about BZ’s actions. This source is a respected and experienced human rights activist.
I state this in the first paragraph of my story. This activist gave me permission to use this correspondence.
And yes I have asked AI about 5times to comment on the contents of this email stretching including BZ – they never responded.
And thanks for your political analysis of the PAD. Some interesting thoughts.
Andrew
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
“It’s Martino”:
Also journalism has its rules, procedures and issues of ethical conduct. It’s not an anything goes world. Therefore my questions to Andrew, which i would like to have answered (by him) before i comment any further.
I am not willing to add my opinion on lese majeste, and my personal perception on this and related issues as they are far too sensitive to just sprout more opinions in public adding to the overwhelming white noise of existing perception based on opinions.
Different than most here involved in the discussion – i am not using an alter ego, i live in Thailand and don’t sit in Europe, Australia or in the US. And so do the majority of people who may have to go to jail, or may get killed over this issue if and when this topic gets more aggravated and polarized, also to some degree because of people that will not have to ever fear the consequences of their armchair activism. Sorry if i am lacking the correct political convictions, my street perspective gives me little time and space to formulate political ideologies over this conflict other than that i am sick of having to see people (regardless of affiliation) die.
“The heart and truth of the matter” is unfortunately a lot more complex than your emotive and superficial statement of “an egregious human rights abuse to protect their image (… and dare I say, business!)”. And from journalistic articles, or academic studies, concerning this matter, i expect a reflection of the complications involved, and if possible, also the the views and perceptions of both sides reflected, for the sake of balance. That is especially important with such a sensitive subject matter.
And that is all i will say presently over Da Torpedo, the 112 issue, and related matters.
A Thai response to Princess Chulabhorn’s interview
LONG LIVE THE KING.
I AM PROUD TO BE A THAI.
Intimidation of Somsak Jeamteerasakul
Last time I checked, the Royal wedding is the matter of the British Monarchy…what does the Royal wedding of the British Monarchy have anything to do with Thai Monarchy?
But let me go off-topic a little to make some comments about the British Monarchy. Personally I have a considerable admiration and respect to the British Monarchy…because they do not interfere with politics-a quality which the Thai Monarchy should learn to adopt for their own survival in the future when the propaganda machine no longer works…
Red Shirt leaders at FCCT
Jeff Savage. Look up the name in the internet (many had already forgotten). Jeff Savage was the hardcore Red Shirt fanatic living in Thailand who was caught on utube urging people to join him to loot and burn Central World to the ground.
Intimidation of Somsak Jeamteerasakul
Ann Brady – 18
Since I am not farang here and dont really care about the royal wedding so I guess I will just keep continue, you know, that’s what I like to do and it it not one bit tiresome.
Review of War Comes to Long An
[…] Review of War Comes to Long An […]
Intimidation of Somsak Jeamteerasakul
Ann Brady (18) could not have done better if she had actually meant to demonstrate the evil of monarchism. If you think that these days, it is no more than a harmless outlet for snobs, think again. The chief enemy of the rule of law is the rule of men.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
“The complications of the Da Torpedo case we can one day discuss in person”
Nick: That’s sounding a lot like Benjamin Zawacki and gives the impression her deplorable treatment is in some way justified – didn’t she basically just tell the truth?
http://www.newmandala.org/2010/01/29/the-evidence-of-intention/