Based on news report about WikiLeaks on Malaysia, I gathered the following.
1. It appears that there was a cable about two Malaysian firms for allegedly being involved in ‘a network controlled by Iran to purchase missile technology from China. (Read here)
2. The Malaysian government ignored a US invitation to co-sponsor a United Nations declaration on the freedom of political prisoners. (Read here)
3. The US requested the Malaysian government to terminate the banking licence of a financial centre because it suspected that it was used “to finance proliferation items from other important trading partners” for Iran. (Read here)
By the way, after watching the Collateral Murder video (watch here), I’m wondering if Southeast Asia really needs the US in this part of the world?
If one of the leaked cables ever suggests that the U.S. does not have faith in Burma’s opposition and Suu Kyi, that could seriously undermine her. I could easily imagine a cynical cable that urges the U.S. government not to enact sanctions or dismisses the prospects for change.
Yes it looks like Weng didn’t say killing small time drug dealers is a good thing so I’m wrong. All he says is that it’s a good thing to get kids off drugs and nothing has been proved about the thousands of deaths during this anti-drug campaign. Dear-oh-dear do you really need me to read between the lines for you. These were real bodies, not the 2009 virtual bodies. For an old Stalinist like Weng a bullet in the back of the head for these people is an acceptable method of dealing with social problems.
In 2006 those on left that supported the red shirts thought they could hold their noses and not be affected by the smell of Thaksin’s corruption. In the intervening four years they have made so many compromises that now any attack on Thaksin is an attack on their own beliefs. Where did your principles go? Do we all take the Weng view that it’s unproven so Thaksin must be innocent. Am I inventing Thaksin’s hard line in the South? Is that unproven also?
“It’s a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”-Macbeth by William Shakespeare. From this we can see that history keeps repeating itself, does it not?
c72
“That’s why Weng was having to say that the killing of the drug dealers was a good thing…..”
c78 “I think you will find it in an interview he gave with, again I think, Bangkok Dan.”
From that interview with Bangkok Dan:
“I’m not a defendant and not a protector of Thaksin, but people tell me he took their kids away from drugs. I don’t know about extrajudicial killings of drug dealers, but four years on not a single case is proven. They still cannot sue him. Look, our political line is very obvious. We want democracy with the king as head of state. We want to get rid of the bureaucratic system. Thaksin created the strongest democratic system, but Thaksin is a byproduct.”
BTW, in the same interview, Weng goes on to be quite explicit on the question of whether Thaksin is the “backbone” of UDD (as in “impossible to split the red shirts from Thaksin”):
“I’m not concerned about him coming back or not. I want democracy with the king as head of state. The government must work. I’m not at all concerned about Thaksin. Most people walked across Thaksin already.“
“I think you will find it in an interview he gave with, again I think, Bangkok Dan.” I’ve just checked. He doesn’t say it’s a good thing, just that it hasn’t been proven:
“What would Thaksin do?
I’m not a defendant and not a protector of Thaksin, but people tell me he took their kids away from drugs. I don’t know about extrajudicial killings of drug dealers, but four years on not a single case is proven. They still cannot sue him. Look, our political line is very obvious. We want democracy with the king as head of state. We want to get rid of the bureaucratic system. Thaksin created the strongest democratic system, but Thaksin is a byproduct.”
Why does he think Thaksin created the strongest democratic system? That’s the more interesting question here.
That the numbers of deaths and injuries went up after Thaksin made defeating the insurgency one of his main projects I suspect can’t be argued against.
It started a few days after New Year 2004 when a major Army base was taken over “out of the Blue” by the insurgents .
It was an unprovoked strike that came as surprise followed by daily attacks and something had to be done even if a more moderate and less decisive guy like Chuan would have been in charge at that time.
# 76: what sort of person Thaksin was and is
This phrase matches Col. Sansern’s similar statement from yesterday who even added that everyone knows it.
As we all don’t know Mr. T that well it sounds nearly as hollow as Sansern’s additional comment that Thaksin can do whatever he wants. That’s a surprise…
You made it sound like you really know him well, really, have you ever work with him? talk to him? dine with him? golf with him? or have you ever been doing any activity with him?
I’m afraid not, but I could say the same about many people who I still consider to be corrupt one way or another. I did, one Loy Kratong, blank Samak by refusing to shake his hand if that counts;-)
Nick Nostitz – 78
Nick you are purposely ignoring the before-after Thaksin being elected comparisons in the South. There certainly has been no noticeable improvement since 2006 but there certainly was a deterioration after he became prime minister.
As to mixing up moderates and extremists in the UDD leadership I will bow to your expertise although I have to say that from here the graduation between them is might fine.
James
You have to admit, if you’re a red shirt sympathizer who supports true democracy, from a strategic point of view, the jailing of the red leaders has only been a positive thing.
Couldn’t agree more, but we still have people like Veera who is arguably the guy who had set up the top-down stage show system for the UDD, and he’s planning to come back. Something I’m truly feared.
LesAbbey
The problem for those who do want to be anti-Thaksin red shirts is that there are people like me who will remind them what sort of person Thaksin was and is
You made it sound like you really know him well, really, have you ever work with him? talk to him? dine with him? golf with him? or have you ever been doing any activity with him?
I think the problem we have now is not about personality flaws but a corrupted system, no matter how much to want to make a god, man is still man.
It is an archaic law, but it is still the law. Usually only applied when the government wants to get someone or some dumb foreigner does someting stupid against the monarchy. Fortunately, His Majesty, The King of Thailand, usually pardons those who commit something minor.
I think you will find it in an interview he gave with, again I think, Bangkok Dan.
Re. the new generation of leaders and non-Thaksin supporting red shirts see my comparison with the Peronists in comment #77. It’s the ‘little bit pregnant’ syndrome again.
What a splurge!! How much more money be spent on “image making”? In Times magazine (the 6 Dec 2010 issue, the US edition) there is an advertisement of the Thai king in honour of his birthday.It really makes ones believe that he brings happiness as well as prosperity to the Thais!?! Amazing Thailand as ever!
“ASSK has tried to engage the regime from day one but to no avail.”
If Dabayin, Shewgonedaing declarations as well as all the readily available recorded words of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi concerning sanctions as evidences even available here on the walls of New Mandala as well won’t it make the Daw Aung San Suu Kyi lovers anonymous a den of liars!
“All they want is capitulation all round both inside and outside the country.”
Even after Ko Zarni plain words quoted by jud #3 here there are still liars blatantly stating the contrary.
And the corollary of the above truism of lies
Those who believe it after the 1000th attempt by the liars are still fool.
First of all, you mix up moderate leaders and hardcore leaders. Veera, Nattawut and Weng, for example, are moderate. Arisaman is definitely not.
And it does not make much of a difference in terms of control over protesters that Veera is out on bail, as the bail conditions do not allow him to either attend any gathering beyond 5 people, to speak with the media, or to leave the city limits of Bangkok. I have been at the court hearing. In this court hearing the DSI has explicitly stated that they would have no problem also letting Dr. Weng and Korkaeow out on bail, as they are known to be peaceful leaders. When they filed bail applications they were refused. An overly paranoid state shoots itself in its own foot…
Secondly, as someone else has pointed out, Prem has shot down straight away the recommendations of the council headed by Anand, which came up with ideas such as introducing Yawi as the second official languages in the three southern provinces. I do not see Prem’s so called “talk talk” approach, especially when having been on the ground there. Nothing has changed, other than that the insurgency gets increasingly sophisticated, and torture allegations against the state remain the same.
“Somsak Jeamteerasakul” said:
“But for the present regime, any desire for change to the current role, status and power of the monarchy, no matter how small, no matter that the desired change would not end the institution of the monarchy, are unacceptable. In other words, the regime wouldn’t bend at all on this issue. ”
Very true. And this issue of radicalization worries me tremendously, as it always takes two to tango. I fear that we might see a similar radicalization process in the military faction that calls the shots presently once they realize that conventional methods will not stop these anti-monarchy feelings. What will be their answer then? Thai history has shown us that the answer of the state against perceived or real enemies of the state is after a period of shock/inactivity/deliberation usually is quite violent.
“Neverfree”:
The problem is less that people are too “lazy” to form a party (see Suttachai Yimprasert’s unsuccessful attempt last year to form a socialist party which was not allowed by the election commission), but that the political space in Thailand is extremely narrow, that after a history of killing many union leaders in the 70’s and 80’s political parties even slightly left of the state ideology are not able to find a large enough support network, and that after decades of such a narrow political space we are only now at the beginning of a political conscious finding in the general population so necessary for a working landscape of different political parties.
The color movements, as imperfect they are, may very possibly setting the stage so that in the future the political stage may widen, and proper political parties may have a chance.
Yet for that to happen the military has to stop interfering in politics. They are overly protective of their version of what Thailand should be, and this way do not allow development to take place. State organized commissions usually just engage in the same small minded and ineffectual little debates over quite irrelevant details, while conveniently leaving out the substantial points that should be addressed, points that may lead to a long overdue adaptation of the entire system, so that Thailand can develop along the lines of evolution, and may not have to experience a revolution – which would be nothing else than terrible.
I wonder if anyone could explain me the Thai concept of “Sufficiency.”
The current government have insufficient funds to build the new blue line sky train, and presently exploring foreign loan option. Yet the cabinet approved 500,000,000 baht for one-night fireworks celebration.
Yes Tarrin you are right. The problem is there is nothing new in this case. The mistake goes back 2006 when some of left feeling unhappy with the PAD’s welcoming of the military coup left the anti-Thaksin movement and joined the newly formed red shirts. Was there a choice? Of course, it wasn’t just one or the other, they could have, and many did, choose neither.
Let’s look at an example. In 2009 at the FCCT for Nick’s book launch the question was asked of the panel whether the red shirts could ever be split away from Thaksin. One of the panel thought not. He compared Thaksin to Argentina’s Juan Peron. You see you couldn’t imagine a supporter of the Peronist Party not being also a supporter of Peron. I’m sure there were some who didn’t like him but it becomes a meaningless internal opposition.
The problem for those who do want to be anti-Thaksin red shirts is that there are people like me who will remind them what sort of person Thaksin was and is. The only way to argue one’s way out of this conundrum is to rewrite history. Now Weng who is probably a good socialist at heart has at least had that Stalinist training of rewriting history. How are the others going to do it.
(Unlike Peron, I do think Thaksin will return home. I quite expect him to be back this coming year and in a powerful position too. At that time I will fear for the left, both those against Thaksin and those that support him. Lessons could be learned from left opposition to Saddam when he took power in Iraq and the left in Iran when Khomeini took power.)
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Mainland Southeast Asia and Wikileaks
Nothing spectacular on the Malaysian side.
Based on news report about WikiLeaks on Malaysia, I gathered the following.
1. It appears that there was a cable about two Malaysian firms for allegedly being involved in ‘a network controlled by Iran to purchase missile technology from China. (Read here)
2. The Malaysian government ignored a US invitation to co-sponsor a United Nations declaration on the freedom of political prisoners. (Read here)
3. The US requested the Malaysian government to terminate the banking licence of a financial centre because it suspected that it was used “to finance proliferation items from other important trading partners” for Iran. (Read here)
By the way, after watching the Collateral Murder video (watch here), I’m wondering if Southeast Asia really needs the US in this part of the world?
Mainland Southeast Asia and Wikileaks
If one of the leaked cables ever suggests that the U.S. does not have faith in Burma’s opposition and Suu Kyi, that could seriously undermine her. I could easily imagine a cynical cable that urges the U.S. government not to enact sanctions or dismisses the prospects for change.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Tukkae, Steve, James
Yes it looks like Weng didn’t say killing small time drug dealers is a good thing so I’m wrong. All he says is that it’s a good thing to get kids off drugs and nothing has been proved about the thousands of deaths during this anti-drug campaign. Dear-oh-dear do you really need me to read between the lines for you. These were real bodies, not the 2009 virtual bodies. For an old Stalinist like Weng a bullet in the back of the head for these people is an acceptable method of dealing with social problems.
In 2006 those on left that supported the red shirts thought they could hold their noses and not be affected by the smell of Thaksin’s corruption. In the intervening four years they have made so many compromises that now any attack on Thaksin is an attack on their own beliefs. Where did your principles go? Do we all take the Weng view that it’s unproven so Thaksin must be innocent. Am I inventing Thaksin’s hard line in the South? Is that unproven also?
Thai happiness spikes
“It’s a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”-Macbeth by William Shakespeare. From this we can see that history keeps repeating itself, does it not?
How hardline have the redshirts become?
c72
“That’s why Weng was having to say that the killing of the drug dealers was a good thing…..”
c78
“I think you will find it in an interview he gave with, again I think, Bangkok Dan.”
From that interview with Bangkok Dan:
“I’m not a defendant and not a protector of Thaksin, but people tell me he took their kids away from drugs. I don’t know about extrajudicial killings of drug dealers, but four years on not a single case is proven. They still cannot sue him. Look, our political line is very obvious. We want democracy with the king as head of state. We want to get rid of the bureaucratic system. Thaksin created the strongest democratic system, but Thaksin is a byproduct.”
http://absolutelybangkok.com/dr-weng-talks-no-thaksin-protector/
BTW, in the same interview, Weng goes on to be quite explicit on the question of whether Thaksin is the “backbone” of UDD (as in “impossible to split the red shirts from Thaksin”):
“I’m not concerned about him coming back or not. I want democracy with the king as head of state. The government must work. I’m not at all concerned about Thaksin. Most people walked across Thaksin already.“
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
Oh dear, another post from someone who ignores everything ever posted at the site. I take it KK is one of those dumb foreigners.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
How hardline has the government become? Even its tame NHRC accuses it of framing people and torturing red shirts.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
“I think you will find it in an interview he gave with, again I think, Bangkok Dan.” I’ve just checked. He doesn’t say it’s a good thing, just that it hasn’t been proven:
“What would Thaksin do?
I’m not a defendant and not a protector of Thaksin, but people tell me he took their kids away from drugs. I don’t know about extrajudicial killings of drug dealers, but four years on not a single case is proven. They still cannot sue him. Look, our political line is very obvious. We want democracy with the king as head of state. We want to get rid of the bureaucratic system. Thaksin created the strongest democratic system, but Thaksin is a byproduct.”
Why does he think Thaksin created the strongest democratic system? That’s the more interesting question here.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Re: Les Abbey # 72:
That the numbers of deaths and injuries went up after Thaksin made defeating the insurgency one of his main projects I suspect can’t be argued against.
It started a few days after New Year 2004 when a major Army base was taken over “out of the Blue” by the insurgents .
It was an unprovoked strike that came as surprise followed by daily attacks and something had to be done even if a more moderate and less decisive guy like Chuan would have been in charge at that time.
# 76: what sort of person Thaksin was and is
This phrase matches Col. Sansern’s similar statement from yesterday who even added that everyone knows it.
As we all don’t know Mr. T that well it sounds nearly as hollow as Sansern’s additional comment that Thaksin can do whatever he wants. That’s a surprise…
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Tarrin – 80
You made it sound like you really know him well, really, have you ever work with him? talk to him? dine with him? golf with him? or have you ever been doing any activity with him?
I’m afraid not, but I could say the same about many people who I still consider to be corrupt one way or another. I did, one Loy Kratong, blank Samak by refusing to shake his hand if that counts;-)
Nick Nostitz – 78
Nick you are purposely ignoring the before-after Thaksin being elected comparisons in the South. There certainly has been no noticeable improvement since 2006 but there certainly was a deterioration after he became prime minister.
As to mixing up moderates and extremists in the UDD leadership I will bow to your expertise although I have to say that from here the graduation between them is might fine.
Thai happiness spikes
Ignorance is bliss.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
James
You have to admit, if you’re a red shirt sympathizer who supports true democracy, from a strategic point of view, the jailing of the red leaders has only been a positive thing.
Couldn’t agree more, but we still have people like Veera who is arguably the guy who had set up the top-down stage show system for the UDD, and he’s planning to come back. Something I’m truly feared.
LesAbbey
The problem for those who do want to be anti-Thaksin red shirts is that there are people like me who will remind them what sort of person Thaksin was and is
You made it sound like you really know him well, really, have you ever work with him? talk to him? dine with him? golf with him? or have you ever been doing any activity with him?
I think the problem we have now is not about personality flaws but a corrupted system, no matter how much to want to make a god, man is still man.
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
It is an archaic law, but it is still the law. Usually only applied when the government wants to get someone or some dumb foreigner does someting stupid against the monarchy. Fortunately, His Majesty, The King of Thailand, usually pardons those who commit something minor.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
James – 76
Did he really say this?
I think you will find it in an interview he gave with, again I think, Bangkok Dan.
Re. the new generation of leaders and non-Thaksin supporting red shirts see my comparison with the Peronists in comment #77. It’s the ‘little bit pregnant’ syndrome again.
Thai happiness spikes
What a splurge!! How much more money be spent on “image making”? In Times magazine (the 6 Dec 2010 issue, the US edition) there is an advertisement of the Thai king in honour of his birthday.It really makes ones believe that he brings happiness as well as prosperity to the Thais!?! Amazing Thailand as ever!
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
A lie told a 1000 times will still be a lie.
“ASSK has tried to engage the regime from day one but to no avail.”
If Dabayin, Shewgonedaing declarations as well as all the readily available recorded words of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi concerning sanctions as evidences even available here on the walls of New Mandala as well won’t it make the Daw Aung San Suu Kyi lovers anonymous a den of liars!
“All they want is capitulation all round both inside and outside the country.”
Even after Ko Zarni plain words quoted by jud #3 here there are still liars blatantly stating the contrary.
And the corollary of the above truism of lies
Those who believe it after the 1000th attempt by the liars are still fool.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
“LesAbbey”:
First of all, you mix up moderate leaders and hardcore leaders. Veera, Nattawut and Weng, for example, are moderate. Arisaman is definitely not.
And it does not make much of a difference in terms of control over protesters that Veera is out on bail, as the bail conditions do not allow him to either attend any gathering beyond 5 people, to speak with the media, or to leave the city limits of Bangkok. I have been at the court hearing. In this court hearing the DSI has explicitly stated that they would have no problem also letting Dr. Weng and Korkaeow out on bail, as they are known to be peaceful leaders. When they filed bail applications they were refused. An overly paranoid state shoots itself in its own foot…
Secondly, as someone else has pointed out, Prem has shot down straight away the recommendations of the council headed by Anand, which came up with ideas such as introducing Yawi as the second official languages in the three southern provinces. I do not see Prem’s so called “talk talk” approach, especially when having been on the ground there. Nothing has changed, other than that the insurgency gets increasingly sophisticated, and torture allegations against the state remain the same.
“Somsak Jeamteerasakul” said:
“But for the present regime, any desire for change to the current role, status and power of the monarchy, no matter how small, no matter that the desired change would not end the institution of the monarchy, are unacceptable. In other words, the regime wouldn’t bend at all on this issue. ”
Very true. And this issue of radicalization worries me tremendously, as it always takes two to tango. I fear that we might see a similar radicalization process in the military faction that calls the shots presently once they realize that conventional methods will not stop these anti-monarchy feelings. What will be their answer then? Thai history has shown us that the answer of the state against perceived or real enemies of the state is after a period of shock/inactivity/deliberation usually is quite violent.
“Neverfree”:
The problem is less that people are too “lazy” to form a party (see Suttachai Yimprasert’s unsuccessful attempt last year to form a socialist party which was not allowed by the election commission), but that the political space in Thailand is extremely narrow, that after a history of killing many union leaders in the 70’s and 80’s political parties even slightly left of the state ideology are not able to find a large enough support network, and that after decades of such a narrow political space we are only now at the beginning of a political conscious finding in the general population so necessary for a working landscape of different political parties.
The color movements, as imperfect they are, may very possibly setting the stage so that in the future the political stage may widen, and proper political parties may have a chance.
Yet for that to happen the military has to stop interfering in politics. They are overly protective of their version of what Thailand should be, and this way do not allow development to take place. State organized commissions usually just engage in the same small minded and ineffectual little debates over quite irrelevant details, while conveniently leaving out the substantial points that should be addressed, points that may lead to a long overdue adaptation of the entire system, so that Thailand can develop along the lines of evolution, and may not have to experience a revolution – which would be nothing else than terrible.
Thai happiness spikes
I wonder if anyone could explain me the Thai concept of “Sufficiency.”
The current government have insufficient funds to build the new blue line sky train, and presently exploring foreign loan option. Yet the cabinet approved 500,000,000 baht for one-night fireworks celebration.
р╕Др╕гр╕б.р╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕бр╣Йр╕Хр╕┤р╕Зр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕Ур╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕ар╕▓р╕йр╕╡р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й 500 р╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ
р╕вр╕╕р╕Др╕Юр╕нр╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕нр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕г500р╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕Зр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕Ур╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕ар╕▓р╕йр╕╡
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Tarrin – 74
You have been saying this since ages ago…
Yes Tarrin you are right. The problem is there is nothing new in this case. The mistake goes back 2006 when some of left feeling unhappy with the PAD’s welcoming of the military coup left the anti-Thaksin movement and joined the newly formed red shirts. Was there a choice? Of course, it wasn’t just one or the other, they could have, and many did, choose neither.
Let’s look at an example. In 2009 at the FCCT for Nick’s book launch the question was asked of the panel whether the red shirts could ever be split away from Thaksin. One of the panel thought not. He compared Thaksin to Argentina’s Juan Peron. You see you couldn’t imagine a supporter of the Peronist Party not being also a supporter of Peron. I’m sure there were some who didn’t like him but it becomes a meaningless internal opposition.
The problem for those who do want to be anti-Thaksin red shirts is that there are people like me who will remind them what sort of person Thaksin was and is. The only way to argue one’s way out of this conundrum is to rewrite history. Now Weng who is probably a good socialist at heart has at least had that Stalinist training of rewriting history. How are the others going to do it.
(Unlike Peron, I do think Thaksin will return home. I quite expect him to be back this coming year and in a powerful position too. At that time I will fear for the left, both those against Thaksin and those that support him. Lessons could be learned from left opposition to Saddam when he took power in Iraq and the left in Iran when Khomeini took power.)
Thai happiness spikes
What makes me rally happy is when I see pictures of my favorite movie stars smiling……especially Tom Cruise who has a really nice smile….