How long is it to the next elections – 4 or 5 years?. Nobody could expect a lot from the first one. People have to learn democracy and even the basic fundamentals about elections (see the “i feel helpless” commentary) again.
It also took the people in Argentina, Chile and Brasil more then one election to get rid of their military leaders.
So there is no need to whiningly look at the disappointing outcome of last weeks election. The step is made and now the opposition has time for their 4 year election campain.
At the moment i have a gut feeling that Burma might have a better future then Thailand.
Am not sure what “bizarre distortion of Thailand’s every day experiences” Srithanonchai (#11) alludes to. The yellow and red movements were bizarre experiences but not of the everyday kind.
Srithanonchai presumably suggests something extraordinarily sinister happens to him in Thailand everday. Whereas I feel safe and unworried since PM Abhisit banished those violent murderuos Reds from Bangkok in May 2010.
I would certainly wish to be educated of Srithanonchai exact meaning about his poster #11.
“But ultimately, if peoples movements are driving politics…” Is this a statement in the tradition of a somewhat utopian strand of normative democracy theory, or are there any empirical examples from comparative political studies that describe political systems of country’s where it works this way? Well, maybe the Tea Party movement comes close? 🙂
Good news — but I wonder how long it will last… why won’t they just put her back in jail/under house arrest for sedition? How would those in Yangon react to that?
Oslo – Norway’s Nobel committee on Saturday invited Aung San Suu Kyi to Oslo to make a belated acceptance speech for the peace prize she won 19 years ago but did not pick up.
The opposition icon of Burma was honoured in 1991 for her non- violent struggle for democracy and human rights, but was unable to travel to Scandinavia because she was under house arrest.
She also feared she would not be allowed to return to Burma, and asked her husband, who has since died, to accept the prize on her behalf.
The head of the Nobel committee, Thorbjrn Jagland, said he would seek a guarantee from the government in Rangoon that Suu Kyi would be allowed back if she visited Oslo.
“I don’t believe she would leave the country without first obtaining such a guarantee, Jagland said told the Norwegian News Agency NTB.
Her release Saturday after a decade-and-a-half of house arrest was good news for political prisoners all over the world, he said.
This year’s peace prize was warded to Liu Xiaobo, who is serving an 11-year prison term in in his native China for his commitment to democracy.//DPA
Why does Thorbjrn Jagland remind me of John Yettaw, looking to associate himself with Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, hoping for a little star dust to rub off on him.
So what is the progress so far of this case with ICC? Has Thaksin’s lawyer Robert Amsterdam formally submitted his petition to the ICC yet, on behalf of the UDD?
If there is no progress, then Amsterdam/Thaksin/UDD were NOT serious to pursue this petition in the first place, and, merely bluffing.
The first point of Streckfuss suggesting that PM Abhisit is a dictator, to support the petition, will be immediately dimissed by ICC without hesitation. The second and third points are of no relevance and merit either. Only the fourth point concerning two issues have merit if Robert Amsterdam could substantiate accordingly thereof:
(1) The sitting PM Abhisit won’t resign to allow an independent inquiry into the Black May 2010; and,
(2) A “tainted” Thai judiciary lacks credibility to make the independent inquiry into the said tragedy of Black May 2010.
It is curious that the mian argument against using the ICC for the May events is that it is unfair that Thaksin won’t t face the same court. If justice was based on this concept – you will only be punished if everyone else guilty is also punished – clearly there would be no justice.
I consider there is enough evidence for an investigation of the May events, whether there were Crimes Against Humanity or War crimes, and who is responsible is far more difficult to tell. The problems faced with an ICC investigation are:
1. It will need to be approved by the Security council (like the Sudan case), and it’s likely that UK, US, even Russia will veto – it could even come down to something odd like maybe the Victor Bout extradiction will come into play with whomever Thailand extradicts him too ( Russia or USA) will offer a veto.
2. Where David said it is not accurate that the criticism of the policy that ICC is after “the most reprehensible dictators”. The command responsible of the ICC is to go for the top person. They have not, and won’t try soldiers or lower ranking people. Is it possible for the carnage in May to be traced to the top?
3. There are clearly legimate grounds for an investigation: the killing of medics, the killing of journalists, killing civilians. Yet these need to be part of a wide spread and systematic plan. It seems it was poorly trained soldiers, appauling leadership, and inability by the State to step in and stop will make any widespread plan difficult to prove. There may be one but it is likely undocumented and well hidden.
Clearly there were a number of crimes that occured. The rule of law says that people suspected of crimes must face a court, you don’t execute them on the street. It is not unreasonable to let a court decide whether they are crimes or crimes against humanity.
Just to kick things off – I believe that The Lady can now have a more beneficial role to play in representing the Burmese people from outside the country. Her role in the nations history over the last 25 years has been admired and applauded by most, but to remain a prisoner of the Junta within or without her house at this point I think is counter-productive. On the world stage she can bring more attention to the nations trouble and perhaps galvanise positive action.
Hell ,if it was me I’d use the opportunity to visit the Chinese government and offer preferential trading partnership in the event of a popular democracy! Naive perhaps, but I see nothing to be gained now by being sidelined, marginalised or re-imprisoned.
She has the credentials to be the Dalai Llama or Nelson Mandela of the 21st Century and state censorship notwithstanding a greater beacon of hope and representation for the forgotten people of Burma.
Welcome back to the world Daw Suu and please step up to the podium and make the voice of your people heard.
Aung San Suu Kyi is an inspiration to all people who cherish liberty and freedom. She is among the very few with the courage to challenge tyranny armed only with the truth and her graceful integrity of purpose.
Because of what Aung San Suu Kyi is and what she represents, certain unsavory characters invoke her name to draw attention. One such unsavory is Thailand’s fugitive PM Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-described protector of “true democracy” who didn’t shy away from comparing himself with Mahatmah Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Myanmar’s Aung San Suu Kyi.
Whereas Gandhi, Mandela and San Suu Kyi were imprisoned (with extended sentences) because of their convictions, Thailand’s Thaksin Shinawatra chose to run and chose exile because so limitedly narrow was this Red Shirt Supreme Leader’s “convictions”.
Streckfuss is a great commentator and because he is resident in Thailand and Khon Khen in particular he is immersed in the situation which gives great credibility t his views
however we need to recognise that, even though he perhaps has some immunities as an internationally recognised scholar, he is directly subject to the repressive forces he is bravely trying to document.
We can only speculate on how much this restricts his commentary. Particularly in relation to subjects that could be claimed within the ambit of lese majeste or criticism of the military/elites that choose to exercise judicial or summary “justice”.
While not claiming anything specific for Handley’s now dated commentary it seems he chose to preclude himself from visiting Thailand because he believed that commenting freely was more important.
Now the story will begin for real……..will she be be allowed to move around, meet who she wishes and speak as she pleases, or will she be locked up again….
or worse, will the Burma generals murder her in some way, either to appear as an “accident” or “by a deranged assassin” or perhaps use the present Thai government’s favorite method of dealing with political opponents, a single sniper bullet to the head………
@neptunian – I think one of the best illustration that nothing is impossible is the collapse of the Soviet Union triggered by the collapse of the Berlin Wall.
Now if the Soviet Union can collapse, I’m sure UMNO will too.
@Srithanonchai – Its important that peoples movements (we will need a way to define this) are ultimately the center of power – and not politicians, political parties or even NGOs.
Peoples movements can be messy as seen in Thailand and in Indonesia (now with democracy blossoming) and they must be careful not to be manipulated by politicians and have certain norms of engagement (preferably non-violent).
But ultimately, if peoples movements are driving politics – it will be more representative of the needs of the country, I believe.
#10 And it would seem that most Buddhist leaders have long avoided any criticism of these rogues. They’re all “good Buddhists” when you start pushing their buttons. But let’s not pin all the blame on one religion alone – they all play the game of accumulating large quantities of bling-bling with almost no real thought about their supposed core values. Thammakhai are a classic example of a sect who are so involved in local politics and empire-building that they have pretty much acquired a sense that filthy lucre collection is sacred
I can see no better current commentator on Thailand than Streckfuss.
He has not made the sometimes sweeping, wild statements and sometimes false arguments which mar Handley’s otherwise excellent book.
Streckfuss presents a mature, balanced, very careful analysis.
What’s more – he not only still lives in Thailand, unbanned unlike Handley – but also Streckfuss lives right in the heart of Red-Shirt country : Khon Khaen.
Abhisit seems to live in a propagandistic dreamworld that to almost everybody else looks like a bizarre distortion of what we experience in Thailand every day.
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Aung San Suu Kyi released
How long is it to the next elections – 4 or 5 years?. Nobody could expect a lot from the first one. People have to learn democracy and even the basic fundamentals about elections (see the “i feel helpless” commentary) again.
It also took the people in Argentina, Chile and Brasil more then one election to get rid of their military leaders.
So there is no need to whiningly look at the disappointing outcome of last weeks election. The step is made and now the opposition has time for their 4 year election campain.
At the moment i have a gut feeling that Burma might have a better future then Thailand.
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
Am not sure what “bizarre distortion of Thailand’s every day experiences” Srithanonchai (#11) alludes to. The yellow and red movements were bizarre experiences but not of the everyday kind.
Srithanonchai presumably suggests something extraordinarily sinister happens to him in Thailand everday. Whereas I feel safe and unworried since PM Abhisit banished those violent murderuos Reds from Bangkok in May 2010.
I would certainly wish to be educated of Srithanonchai exact meaning about his poster #11.
Public Service Announcement to all Malaysians
Greg #3
“But ultimately, if peoples movements are driving politics…” Is this a statement in the tradition of a somewhat utopian strand of normative democracy theory, or are there any empirical examples from comparative political studies that describe political systems of country’s where it works this way? Well, maybe the Tea Party movement comes close? 🙂
Aung San Suu Kyi released
Good news — but I wonder how long it will last… why won’t they just put her back in jail/under house arrest for sedition? How would those in Yangon react to that?
Aung San Suu Kyi released
Nobel committee invites Suu Kyi to Oslo
Why does Thorbjrn Jagland remind me of John Yettaw, looking to associate himself with Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, hoping for a little star dust to rub off on him.
Why is a case with the ICC so frightening?
So what is the progress so far of this case with ICC? Has Thaksin’s lawyer Robert Amsterdam formally submitted his petition to the ICC yet, on behalf of the UDD?
If there is no progress, then Amsterdam/Thaksin/UDD were NOT serious to pursue this petition in the first place, and, merely bluffing.
The first point of Streckfuss suggesting that PM Abhisit is a dictator, to support the petition, will be immediately dimissed by ICC without hesitation. The second and third points are of no relevance and merit either. Only the fourth point concerning two issues have merit if Robert Amsterdam could substantiate accordingly thereof:
(1) The sitting PM Abhisit won’t resign to allow an independent inquiry into the Black May 2010; and,
(2) A “tainted” Thai judiciary lacks credibility to make the independent inquiry into the said tragedy of Black May 2010.
Aung San Suu Kyi released
I got no free advice for Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. I got gratitude; and I know for sure that she don’t owe me, nor anyone else, nuthin’.
People want freedom, and control of their own lives, they got to take same for themselves.
Waitin’ for the tooth fairy to get it for them ain’t a realistic proposition.
Why is a case with the ICC so frightening?
It is curious that the mian argument against using the ICC for the May events is that it is unfair that Thaksin won’t t face the same court. If justice was based on this concept – you will only be punished if everyone else guilty is also punished – clearly there would be no justice.
I consider there is enough evidence for an investigation of the May events, whether there were Crimes Against Humanity or War crimes, and who is responsible is far more difficult to tell. The problems faced with an ICC investigation are:
1. It will need to be approved by the Security council (like the Sudan case), and it’s likely that UK, US, even Russia will veto – it could even come down to something odd like maybe the Victor Bout extradiction will come into play with whomever Thailand extradicts him too ( Russia or USA) will offer a veto.
2. Where David said it is not accurate that the criticism of the policy that ICC is after “the most reprehensible dictators”. The command responsible of the ICC is to go for the top person. They have not, and won’t try soldiers or lower ranking people. Is it possible for the carnage in May to be traced to the top?
3. There are clearly legimate grounds for an investigation: the killing of medics, the killing of journalists, killing civilians. Yet these need to be part of a wide spread and systematic plan. It seems it was poorly trained soldiers, appauling leadership, and inability by the State to step in and stop will make any widespread plan difficult to prove. There may be one but it is likely undocumented and well hidden.
Clearly there were a number of crimes that occured. The rule of law says that people suspected of crimes must face a court, you don’t execute them on the street. It is not unreasonable to let a court decide whether they are crimes or crimes against humanity.
Public Service Announcement to all Malaysians
Hi Greg,
Thanks for sharing the word.
py
Aung San Suu Kyi released
yes it is a joyous occasion BUT remember she should never have been incarcerated in the first place ,
Aung San Suu Kyi released
Just to kick things off – I believe that The Lady can now have a more beneficial role to play in representing the Burmese people from outside the country. Her role in the nations history over the last 25 years has been admired and applauded by most, but to remain a prisoner of the Junta within or without her house at this point I think is counter-productive. On the world stage she can bring more attention to the nations trouble and perhaps galvanise positive action.
Hell ,if it was me I’d use the opportunity to visit the Chinese government and offer preferential trading partnership in the event of a popular democracy! Naive perhaps, but I see nothing to be gained now by being sidelined, marginalised or re-imprisoned.
She has the credentials to be the Dalai Llama or Nelson Mandela of the 21st Century and state censorship notwithstanding a greater beacon of hope and representation for the forgotten people of Burma.
Welcome back to the world Daw Suu and please step up to the podium and make the voice of your people heard.
Aung San Suu Kyi released
Aung San Suu Kyi is an inspiration to all people who cherish liberty and freedom. She is among the very few with the courage to challenge tyranny armed only with the truth and her graceful integrity of purpose.
Because of what Aung San Suu Kyi is and what she represents, certain unsavory characters invoke her name to draw attention. One such unsavory is Thailand’s fugitive PM Thaksin Shinawatra, a self-described protector of “true democracy” who didn’t shy away from comparing himself with Mahatmah Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Myanmar’s Aung San Suu Kyi.
Whereas Gandhi, Mandela and San Suu Kyi were imprisoned (with extended sentences) because of their convictions, Thailand’s Thaksin Shinawatra chose to run and chose exile because so limitedly narrow was this Red Shirt Supreme Leader’s “convictions”.
Why is a case with the ICC so frightening?
Chris Beale
Streckfuss is a great commentator and because he is resident in Thailand and Khon Khen in particular he is immersed in the situation which gives great credibility t his views
however we need to recognise that, even though he perhaps has some immunities as an internationally recognised scholar, he is directly subject to the repressive forces he is bravely trying to document.
We can only speculate on how much this restricts his commentary. Particularly in relation to subjects that could be claimed within the ambit of lese majeste or criticism of the military/elites that choose to exercise judicial or summary “justice”.
While not claiming anything specific for Handley’s now dated commentary it seems he chose to preclude himself from visiting Thailand because he believed that commenting freely was more important.
Aung San Suu Kyi released
Now the story will begin for real……..will she be be allowed to move around, meet who she wishes and speak as she pleases, or will she be locked up again….
or worse, will the Burma generals murder her in some way, either to appear as an “accident” or “by a deranged assassin” or perhaps use the present Thai government’s favorite method of dealing with political opponents, a single sniper bullet to the head………
Public Service Announcement to all Malaysians
@neptunian – I think one of the best illustration that nothing is impossible is the collapse of the Soviet Union triggered by the collapse of the Berlin Wall.
Now if the Soviet Union can collapse, I’m sure UMNO will too.
@Srithanonchai – Its important that peoples movements (we will need a way to define this) are ultimately the center of power – and not politicians, political parties or even NGOs.
Peoples movements can be messy as seen in Thailand and in Indonesia (now with democracy blossoming) and they must be careful not to be manipulated by politicians and have certain norms of engagement (preferably non-violent).
But ultimately, if peoples movements are driving politics – it will be more representative of the needs of the country, I believe.
Green Left Weekly on Burma
Dear Aung San Suu Kyi,
I’m so happy you are free. The world rejoices with you. May your pure heart and mind exist for eternity.
Best wishes and much love.
Dennis
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
#10 And it would seem that most Buddhist leaders have long avoided any criticism of these rogues. They’re all “good Buddhists” when you start pushing their buttons. But let’s not pin all the blame on one religion alone – they all play the game of accumulating large quantities of bling-bling with almost no real thought about their supposed core values. Thammakhai are a classic example of a sect who are so involved in local politics and empire-building that they have pretty much acquired a sense that filthy lucre collection is sacred
Why is a case with the ICC so frightening?
I can see no better current commentator on Thailand than Streckfuss.
He has not made the sometimes sweeping, wild statements and sometimes false arguments which mar Handley’s otherwise excellent book.
Streckfuss presents a mature, balanced, very careful analysis.
What’s more – he not only still lives in Thailand, unbanned unlike Handley – but also Streckfuss lives right in the heart of Red-Shirt country : Khon Khaen.
A voice from Burma: “I feel helpless”
Moe Aung said:
“There is no alternative (TINA) as one Margaret Thatcher famously said.”
What is your alternative Moe Aung? Writing critical comments in New Mandala until the regime falls?
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
Abhisit seems to live in a propagandistic dreamworld that to almost everybody else looks like a bizarre distortion of what we experience in Thailand every day.