Could this happen in Thailand? Will people who are fed up with the establishment (incl. the Democrats and PAD) but also cannot see that Phuea Thai/UDD present a constructive alternative, come forth to state “the simple message: We, The People of Thailand”? Where could we find the social basis for such a movement? Hardly in the present crop of NGOs. Moreover, if they claimed to be “The People” (as they have often done), are the other two groups some sort of aliens rather than — “The People,” merely differerent sectors, and very certainly the great majority?
When the BN govt controls the army, police and judistiary, there is really not much that the PR state govt can do. The BN govt can ignore rules and laws with impunity. The differentiation of state and federal is also lost in many cases. The BN govt as custodian of national funds simply ignore their obligations to the states if they are governed by PR. Those state have to make do with just state level income, while the bulk of the money collected goes to Federal and “BN coffers”
1. Budget allocations for development etc to BN states are credited to state coffers
2. Budget allocations to PR states are channeled to federal agencies and UMNO “cawangans” to spend!
3. Oil roayalties suddenly become “non payable” when Trengannu fell to PAS then becomes payable again when UMNO wrestled it back
4. Oil royalties became “non payable” to Kelantan and is turned into “charity money” and allocated to an UMNO agency for dispensing in Kelantan
All of the above violates moral, legal and Federal – State obligations. What can the PR do – not much, since the juditiary is not really independent!
All Buddhists know that the founder of their culture was a prince who turned his back on political power to take up moral teaching. It may be in the nature of Buddhism that the good people who form the backbone of their culture are largely absent from political leadership. Old-style politics seems to be centred on warlords and their power-hungry descendants and hangers-on, and new-style politics on vastly rich fraudsters.
The event is organised by University of Sydney and therefore, not to raise funds for Pakatan Rakyat.
However, if you wish to make a contribution, please contact John Khoo who has been organising fundraisers for Pakatan Rakyat through his Friends of Pakatan Rakyat Group.
In acknowledging Anwar role in the struggle for Democracy in Malaysia we should not lose sight of the 1970s Overseas-based Malaysian student movement who campaigned relentlessly for Democracy in their homeland in the face of severe repression from the ruling elite. Names like Tan Wah Piow and the “Singapore Eight”(1971), Khoo EE Liam(1974). H.T. Lee(1974), Peter Chandran, Wong, Hishammuddin Rais(1976) and Steve Chan…are some that spring to mind. The Eighties generation around Burma activist Debbie S…, OSS leaders like Eddie Chin and Krishnan and many others should be remembered for their role! Many contributed much to Australian and New Zealand political life as “exiles” as well and some remained here as citizens. Often as student activists they faced the same racism that an earlier generation of Overseas Students faced which culminated in the “Overseas Visa Charge” (our Tertiary Educatiuon” Cash Cow” that is coming home to bite us replacing the equally questionable concept of the Overseas Student receiving an Australian education as a form of “Foreign Aid” (legacy of “Columbo Plan”). Education should be free and universal!~ An investment in tomorrow’s citizens o0f the globe. Jefferson Lee is a columnist with and former student activist from the 1970’s.
It would be interesting to actually hear from the Thai government what it sees as the ‘core reasons’ for the rampant coruption in the kingdom.
As an outsider with a keen interest in Asian sociology, I see some of the main core reasons tied to the actual evolution of Thai ‘social culture’ both historically and present.
Be it Thailand’s feudal past which still sees the separtion of the untouchable’Amnaat and the unfortunate Prai.
A centralised business culture which is highly nepotistic and monopolised by a few wealthy families and their cronies.
A patronage system which once gave security to the poor but now is abused in order to gain easy wealth.
But above all a ‘social culture’ that hides behind a face which shows very little real respect for ethics and moral codes especially within the security forces who are supposedly employed to protect the Thai people.
No amount of censorship can stop the kingdom from loosing what little face it has left in the ‘actual face’ of what really exists across not only political and business intstitutions but also social instituitions.
Thailands’ LM laws could be used more effectively if when MPs and the elites who swear to be honest in their repected postions before the king are caught out and punished as severly for speaking ill of the highest instituiton. They commit treason when they steal from the nation and ultimately they lie to the king. They therefore do not deserve to lead or do business as they are mere common thieves. No amount of prestige they assume to have can take away this very true fact .
Les says: “Yes I know some of the Democrats from places like Phuket and Songkla aren’t too sweet smelling either.” And I would add they they have been smelling in the East where they work with gangster local politicians – see the chapter in Pasuk and Baker’s Thai Capital book. But more to the point: How do we measure the Abhsit govt? Abhisit stands accused of being clean but heads a government that, in one sense, relies on corruption in the military, in coalition areas, and in their own areas in an effort to get, keep and bolster its power. Is that less corrupt than sloshing about in the trough? Or is it providing the trough for them to slosh about in?
Thanks Tacitus for helping all those “fahlang cannot understand thai people” to understand a little more clearly what a majority of thai people understand intuitively.
re Justin..#12: Yes, well, it was the multicolor-Democrat types who weren’t particularly interested in any open and honest debate when this tactic of seizing buildings and public streets became quite the fashion in 2008. In fact, they lent their support to such tactics. Get that sorted out, then maybe your idea would have more appeal.
>But in all seriousness, there needs to be open and honest debate on a nation’s citizens’ rights to peacefully protest without fears of Putin’s truncheons. And on the rights of a nation’s citizens’ who are not protesting to not have their buildings or highways commandeered by those who are.
That the concept of “sufficiency economy” can help Thai people to deal with the traditional problem of corruption is at best naive, at worst cynical. Old and new elites indulge in the spoils of globalization and the crowd is asked to hang in there. Politics is about promises. The only promise the current government wants to make is to perpetuate a misty-eyed status quo. Not very good at the beginning of the 21st century.
In an article about flood relief in last weekend’s Bangkok Post, finance minister Korn was quoted saying that most of the allocated government funds haven’t been transferred to the affected provinces out of fear that the local administrations will not distribute them “efficiently” (e.g. syphon large parts off into their own pockets). A surprisingly frank but pathetic testimonial of how outwitted the central government is. Sufficiency economy: this country is messy so don’t count on US.
You see if we say ‘among the most’ corrupt we are doing a disservice to those that really got carried away. Of course as Darren says we can use corruption in the moral rather than the financial sense, but then we have to look at people like Chalerm and his sons, or parties making up to the provincial mafia bosses and having those families in their parties. Even if we look at what’s happened under Newin’s party at the airport, how does it compare to some of the going ons at Suwananbhun during the Thaksin government?
How about we run a league table of corrupt Thai governments. I’m not sure if we could do on amounts, but by appearance I would probably go with these as my top 3.
1 – Chatchai
2 – Banharm
3 – Thaksin
It would be easy to throw the last two Democrat governments in, but usually they have been in coalition with parties that are far worse than themselves. Yes I know some of the Democrats from places like Phuket and Songkla aren’t too sweet smelling either.
Les Abbey, What argument do you suggest, to highlight Abhisit’s position ? Will turning a blind eye on corruption be a better argument ? OK thats fine with me……How is it then that armed men dressed in black took over the airport car park a couple of months back,but are not immediately thrown in jail and fitted with leg irons,as were redshirt protesters who had no weapons ?……or the continued failure of Abhisits friends in the judiciary and “security” agencys to bring yellow shirt leaders to book for taking over an international airport in 2008. Or how about the Constitution Court vdo’s that Abhisit can not see any wrong doing in ?……is this not corruption ?
I believe Rob said “among the most”, which doesnt necessarily mean that Abhisit’s govt IS the most corrupt….
Truly “clean” Thai politicians are rare, with the current political environment, I doubt any clean Thai politicians can get to position of influence without “dirty” dealings.
This government is reckoned to be among the most corrupt in Thailand’s modern history.
Whoever is doing the reckoning Rob has an extremely short memory. Not even counting Thaksin, where does Chatchai fit in the reckoning? The Democrats are not angels, and Newin is a crook, but compared to some of the guys in the past and some in the present opposition Abhisit is almost saintly.
You see, as I point it out yet again, this sort of propaganda comment makes supporters of the UDD look rather silly and immature. You have some good arguments on your side so use them and not this sort of drivel.
On 22nd August 1969 a column of 7th Infantry Battalion attacked the jungle camp of CPB’s Southern Shan State HQ on the mountain range west of Inle Lake. Among the killed was a Central Committee Committee member of CPB Bo Pu.
When his corpse was searched the Burmese soldiers found a photo of young airforce corporal in his shirt pocket. The Burmese major heading the army column was shocked when he saw the photo.
The young man in the photo was one of his classmates from his OTS (Officer Traning School) batch and he was then also a major in the army. The photo and the story went all the way to the War Office in Rangoon and the major was called in to explain.
He just said, ” Yes Bo Pu was my father. He met my mother during the big war and I was born. He was in the Japanese revolution when my mother died and he couldn’t look after me at all. So I was adopted out to my aunty and uncle. It was in 1945 and I was 2 or 3 years old. I didn’t remember it at all.
He was in Rangoon as a member of the CPB team during the 1963 peace talks. He came to our house and asked my father and mother about me. I was then in the airforce. They pointed him to my photo on the wall and he took it down and never returned.
I’d never met him in my life. He did what he believed and I did what I believed by serving in the airforce first and then in the army.”
The Burmese army had taken no adverse action against the major.
“The principles helped Thailand coping with corruption and passing through the world’s economic recession, he added.”
The use of the past tense of the verb ‘help’ subliminally suggests that Thailand has overcome corruption, which is most certainly not the case.
This government is reckoned to be among the most corrupt in Thailand’s modern history. Yet another indication that you can’t believe a word Abhisit says.
Not that he has any influence over corruption or anything else in Thailand, it is commonly believed that he is merely the pretty-boy, foreign-PR lipstick on a very ugly, royally-sponsored pig.
I recall from somewhere the regime intended that appointed assemblymen would hold the rank of major or above. And there are around 290 to be appointed. Perhaps the selection is proving more difficult than anticipated? Or perhaps their parliamentary duties will not be particularly onerous?
I wonder if someone can explain to me the difference between Bhumbhol’s Sufficiency Economy and the doctrine of “juche” promoted by North Korea’s Kim family.
Justin J Mitchell/Jonny: as I said last month: “Jonny, I have just returned from leave. The threatening emails you have sent me are unacceptable. You are no longer welcome on this forum.” AW
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Public Service Announcement to all Malaysians
Could this happen in Thailand? Will people who are fed up with the establishment (incl. the Democrats and PAD) but also cannot see that Phuea Thai/UDD present a constructive alternative, come forth to state “the simple message: We, The People of Thailand”? Where could we find the social basis for such a movement? Hardly in the present crop of NGOs. Moreover, if they claimed to be “The People” (as they have often done), are the other two groups some sort of aliens rather than — “The People,” merely differerent sectors, and very certainly the great majority?
Public Service Announcement to all Malaysians
When the BN govt controls the army, police and judistiary, there is really not much that the PR state govt can do. The BN govt can ignore rules and laws with impunity. The differentiation of state and federal is also lost in many cases. The BN govt as custodian of national funds simply ignore their obligations to the states if they are governed by PR. Those state have to make do with just state level income, while the bulk of the money collected goes to Federal and “BN coffers”
1. Budget allocations for development etc to BN states are credited to state coffers
2. Budget allocations to PR states are channeled to federal agencies and UMNO “cawangans” to spend!
3. Oil roayalties suddenly become “non payable” when Trengannu fell to PAS then becomes payable again when UMNO wrestled it back
4. Oil royalties became “non payable” to Kelantan and is turned into “charity money” and allocated to an UMNO agency for dispensing in Kelantan
All of the above violates moral, legal and Federal – State obligations. What can the PR do – not much, since the juditiary is not really independent!
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
All Buddhists know that the founder of their culture was a prince who turned his back on political power to take up moral teaching. It may be in the nature of Buddhism that the good people who form the backbone of their culture are largely absent from political leadership. Old-style politics seems to be centred on warlords and their power-hungry descendants and hangers-on, and new-style politics on vastly rich fraudsters.
Anwar Ibrahim at The University of Sydney
@ norizan.
The event is organised by University of Sydney and therefore, not to raise funds for Pakatan Rakyat.
However, if you wish to make a contribution, please contact John Khoo who has been organising fundraisers for Pakatan Rakyat through his Friends of Pakatan Rakyat Group.
John can be contacted at [email protected]
@Jefferson. Thanks for reminding us of all that have contributed in the long struggle to make Malaysia a functioning democracy.
Anwar Ibrahim at The University of Sydney
In acknowledging Anwar role in the struggle for Democracy in Malaysia we should not lose sight of the 1970s Overseas-based Malaysian student movement who campaigned relentlessly for Democracy in their homeland in the face of severe repression from the ruling elite. Names like Tan Wah Piow and the “Singapore Eight”(1971), Khoo EE Liam(1974). H.T. Lee(1974), Peter Chandran, Wong, Hishammuddin Rais(1976) and Steve Chan…are some that spring to mind. The Eighties generation around Burma activist Debbie S…, OSS leaders like Eddie Chin and Krishnan and many others should be remembered for their role! Many contributed much to Australian and New Zealand political life as “exiles” as well and some remained here as citizens. Often as student activists they faced the same racism that an earlier generation of Overseas Students faced which culminated in the “Overseas Visa Charge” (our Tertiary Educatiuon” Cash Cow” that is coming home to bite us replacing the equally questionable concept of the Overseas Student receiving an Australian education as a form of “Foreign Aid” (legacy of “Columbo Plan”). Education should be free and universal!~ An investment in tomorrow’s citizens o0f the globe. Jefferson Lee is a columnist with and former student activist from the 1970’s.
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
It would be interesting to actually hear from the Thai government what it sees as the ‘core reasons’ for the rampant coruption in the kingdom.
As an outsider with a keen interest in Asian sociology, I see some of the main core reasons tied to the actual evolution of Thai ‘social culture’ both historically and present.
Be it Thailand’s feudal past which still sees the separtion of the untouchable’Amnaat and the unfortunate Prai.
A centralised business culture which is highly nepotistic and monopolised by a few wealthy families and their cronies.
A patronage system which once gave security to the poor but now is abused in order to gain easy wealth.
But above all a ‘social culture’ that hides behind a face which shows very little real respect for ethics and moral codes especially within the security forces who are supposedly employed to protect the Thai people.
No amount of censorship can stop the kingdom from loosing what little face it has left in the ‘actual face’ of what really exists across not only political and business intstitutions but also social instituitions.
Thailands’ LM laws could be used more effectively if when MPs and the elites who swear to be honest in their repected postions before the king are caught out and punished as severly for speaking ill of the highest instituiton. They commit treason when they steal from the nation and ultimately they lie to the king. They therefore do not deserve to lead or do business as they are mere common thieves. No amount of prestige they assume to have can take away this very true fact .
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
Les says: “Yes I know some of the Democrats from places like Phuket and Songkla aren’t too sweet smelling either.” And I would add they they have been smelling in the East where they work with gangster local politicians – see the chapter in Pasuk and Baker’s Thai Capital book. But more to the point: How do we measure the Abhsit govt? Abhisit stands accused of being clean but heads a government that, in one sense, relies on corruption in the military, in coalition areas, and in their own areas in an effort to get, keep and bolster its power. Is that less corrupt than sloshing about in the trough? Or is it providing the trough for them to slosh about in?
Anwar Ibrahim at The University of Sydney
hey… does anyone know if there will be an option for donationes in the event of anwar ibrahim?? thank you!!
The quantum physics of the Thai constitutional universe
Thanks Tacitus for helping all those “fahlang cannot understand thai people” to understand a little more clearly what a majority of thai people understand intuitively.
Thailand’s monarchy and divisiveness
re Justin..#12: Yes, well, it was the multicolor-Democrat types who weren’t particularly interested in any open and honest debate when this tactic of seizing buildings and public streets became quite the fashion in 2008. In fact, they lent their support to such tactics. Get that sorted out, then maybe your idea would have more appeal.
>But in all seriousness, there needs to be open and honest debate on a nation’s citizens’ rights to peacefully protest without fears of Putin’s truncheons. And on the rights of a nation’s citizens’ who are not protesting to not have their buildings or highways commandeered by those who are.
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
That the concept of “sufficiency economy” can help Thai people to deal with the traditional problem of corruption is at best naive, at worst cynical. Old and new elites indulge in the spoils of globalization and the crowd is asked to hang in there. Politics is about promises. The only promise the current government wants to make is to perpetuate a misty-eyed status quo. Not very good at the beginning of the 21st century.
In an article about flood relief in last weekend’s Bangkok Post, finance minister Korn was quoted saying that most of the allocated government funds haven’t been transferred to the affected provinces out of fear that the local administrations will not distribute them “efficiently” (e.g. syphon large parts off into their own pockets). A surprisingly frank but pathetic testimonial of how outwitted the central government is. Sufficiency economy: this country is messy so don’t count on US.
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
Wern & Darren – 3 & 4
You see if we say ‘among the most’ corrupt we are doing a disservice to those that really got carried away. Of course as Darren says we can use corruption in the moral rather than the financial sense, but then we have to look at people like Chalerm and his sons, or parties making up to the provincial mafia bosses and having those families in their parties. Even if we look at what’s happened under Newin’s party at the airport, how does it compare to some of the going ons at Suwananbhun during the Thaksin government?
How about we run a league table of corrupt Thai governments. I’m not sure if we could do on amounts, but by appearance I would probably go with these as my top 3.
1 – Chatchai
2 – Banharm
3 – Thaksin
It would be easy to throw the last two Democrat governments in, but usually they have been in coalition with parties that are far worse than themselves. Yes I know some of the Democrats from places like Phuket and Songkla aren’t too sweet smelling either.
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
Les Abbey, What argument do you suggest, to highlight Abhisit’s position ? Will turning a blind eye on corruption be a better argument ? OK thats fine with me……How is it then that armed men dressed in black took over the airport car park a couple of months back,but are not immediately thrown in jail and fitted with leg irons,as were redshirt protesters who had no weapons ?……or the continued failure of Abhisits friends in the judiciary and “security” agencys to bring yellow shirt leaders to book for taking over an international airport in 2008. Or how about the Constitution Court vdo’s that Abhisit can not see any wrong doing in ?……is this not corruption ?
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
LesAbbey,
I believe Rob said “among the most”, which doesnt necessarily mean that Abhisit’s govt IS the most corrupt….
Truly “clean” Thai politicians are rare, with the current political environment, I doubt any clean Thai politicians can get to position of influence without “dirty” dealings.
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
Rob Wallace – 2
This government is reckoned to be among the most corrupt in Thailand’s modern history.
Whoever is doing the reckoning Rob has an extremely short memory. Not even counting Thaksin, where does Chatchai fit in the reckoning? The Democrats are not angels, and Newin is a crook, but compared to some of the guys in the past and some in the present opposition Abhisit is almost saintly.
You see, as I point it out yet again, this sort of propaganda comment makes supporters of the UDD look rather silly and immature. You have some good arguments on your side so use them and not this sort of drivel.
Brother against brother, friend against friend
On 22nd August 1969 a column of 7th Infantry Battalion attacked the jungle camp of CPB’s Southern Shan State HQ on the mountain range west of Inle Lake. Among the killed was a Central Committee Committee member of CPB Bo Pu.
When his corpse was searched the Burmese soldiers found a photo of young airforce corporal in his shirt pocket. The Burmese major heading the army column was shocked when he saw the photo.
The young man in the photo was one of his classmates from his OTS (Officer Traning School) batch and he was then also a major in the army. The photo and the story went all the way to the War Office in Rangoon and the major was called in to explain.
He just said, ” Yes Bo Pu was my father. He met my mother during the big war and I was born. He was in the Japanese revolution when my mother died and he couldn’t look after me at all. So I was adopted out to my aunty and uncle. It was in 1945 and I was 2 or 3 years old. I didn’t remember it at all.
He was in Rangoon as a member of the CPB team during the 1963 peace talks. He came to our house and asked my father and mother about me. I was then in the airforce. They pointed him to my photo on the wall and he took it down and never returned.
I’d never met him in my life. He did what he believed and I did what I believed by serving in the airforce first and then in the army.”
The Burmese army had taken no adverse action against the major.
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
“The principles helped Thailand coping with corruption and passing through the world’s economic recession, he added.”
The use of the past tense of the verb ‘help’ subliminally suggests that Thailand has overcome corruption, which is most certainly not the case.
This government is reckoned to be among the most corrupt in Thailand’s modern history. Yet another indication that you can’t believe a word Abhisit says.
Not that he has any influence over corruption or anything else in Thailand, it is commonly believed that he is merely the pretty-boy, foreign-PR lipstick on a very ugly, royally-sponsored pig.
Another one.
Burma votes 2010 – Post-poll update
Thx Moe Aung.
I recall from somewhere the regime intended that appointed assemblymen would hold the rank of major or above. And there are around 290 to be appointed. Perhaps the selection is proving more difficult than anticipated? Or perhaps their parliamentary duties will not be particularly onerous?
Abhisit on sufficiency and corruption
I wonder if someone can explain to me the difference between Bhumbhol’s Sufficiency Economy and the doctrine of “juche” promoted by North Korea’s Kim family.
Robert Amsterdam on Show Trials, Political Trials and Crimes Against Humanity
Justin J Mitchell/Jonny: as I said last month: “Jonny, I have just returned from leave. The threatening emails you have sent me are unacceptable. You are no longer welcome on this forum.” AW