Yes, I very much fear that Ji has it about right, and the more repression and oppression that are used, the more likely it is that change, when it comes (as come it must and come it therefore will) will be violent.
It would be prudent of those in power and those ascending the ladders of power to be careful whose head they stomp on (in typical Thai pooyay fashion) on the way up the ladder, because they will certainly meet them again on the way down. When they are no position to stomp on anyone.
I forsee many, many exiles, come the day, and they will then discover for themselves that Thais and Thailand have no friends outside Thailand, even their close neighbours cannot abide them, such is their habitual behaviour.
You sure it wasn’t plan B scratching Than Shwe’s ass in the shower? Wondered where he’d been.
He accuses everyone of relying on the West. His love-hate obsession with the West is pathological. He’s the one who believes the West is everything, good and bad in relation to Burma. Incurable condition I reckon
‘Why do you care which side I want to join?’- Tarrin (#18)
I already know which side you are with Tarrin. I just wish to know whether or not you’ll ‘flinch’. And you did flinch Tarrin, and that’s encouraging sign.
Why do you care which side I want to join?
Do you think the red only got the sort like Sae Dang or Nattawut? there are many other red groups like Sombat of Red Sunday or the Red Ant group just to name a fews.
Btw, I never want to be anyone leader or trying to be one. This might be the first time in the history of Thailand that a large part of its population have become political wary. If someone wants to lead this movement then time will be the only factor to select the suitable leader. Thaksin tried to lead the red, he fail, so now we just have to wait for another one. Why do you think the red still able to easily muster 10,000 easily every time there’s a major rally with most of its leaders either fled or in jail?
if you sincerely aspire to be a Red leader, the one and only caveat is that you must have demonstrated ‘unflinching fealty’ to Thaksin Shinawatra, the one and only de-facto Supreme Red Leader.
That’s a pretty cheap assumption don’t you think? first Thaksin is not the only billionaire in the country so there are many other capable individual that are willing to pay more for their political gain. If you really want to talk about selling your “unflinching fealty” then Newin or Suthep is as fealty. How do you think Tarit Piengdit got the position as the chief of DSI if its not because of Suthep?
Tarrin (#16) – Seriously and sincerely, do you see yourself joining and following the likes of Seh Daeng (whose motto definitely must have been ‘change thru increasing violence’), or Nattawut/Jatuporn (the Baht 1o0 million pre-paid Red leaders)?
One other thing Tarrin – if you sincerely aspire to be a Red leader, the one and only caveat is that you must have demonstrated ‘unflinching fealty’ to Thaksin Shinawatra, the one and only de-facto Supreme Red Leader. Unflinching fealty comes much easier, it seems, when there is a huge Thaksin paycheck involved.
Consider these sobering facts:
1)SPDC is relentlessly successful in achieving control in every aspect at the expense of the citizenry well beings.
2)Side line the paramour of the west Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to no more than “a house wife”.
3)Having uncle Wen as a permanent guardian/sponsor, a reliable cover bought through the Yadanab├┤ne pipe line to China.
Does these facts make SPDC look like a retarded entity labeled by USA, EU and Australia as thugs goons and such? Or rather make the west looks like nothing more than peanut gallery crazies. Yet the west continue to march on to the beat of the drum of belittling the Idiot Savant.
If not for the miserable plight of the citizenry this might have been the greatest joke that uncle Wen and SG Than Shwe can exchange over state dinners make possible only because of USA led policies that every single western democracy acquiesce to.
Ko Moe Aung #15
Still relying on the west obvious useless careless approach to work? The drones may be effective from the opened desert terrain within Iraq and Afghanistan against elements within Iran and Pakistan but rather useless from Thailand with the tropical foliage.
Cunning has not begin to describe the SPDC as shown here #16. Misinformation, misdirection, covert activities and blatant lies
When the next level of confidence in defiance is accomplished with the help of DPRK, it is not a far fetch scenario where SPDC will be supplying the Red shirts to format unrest in Thailand, or encourage the Thai Military to take over instead of the usual deluge of refugees to show the greedy neighbor who really is in charge.
Cunning or cunning as a fox?
I agree the terms Bamar and Myanmar are used in the same way by the majority to include everyone like the term Burmese in English. Although the minorities are likely to disagree, they will nonetheless find themselves especially as asylum seekers called Burmese by the host country. The term Burman was used by the colonial rulers to distinguish the majority from the rest.
Pure Burmese mainly live in remote villages. Most urban folk are of mixed ancestry and call themselves Bamar or Myanmar, the latter being an older and more formal literary term.
Before you pass a judgment on them maybe you want to take a look on what they really have to offer? http://redsiam.info/board/index.php?topic=71.0
here is the link for Red Siam’s road map
Furthermore, not every revolution needs to be violence one, take Spain after Francisco death for example. See how they manage to transformed from fascist dictatorship to a prosperous democracy. Usually people would op for arm struggled only because they find no other alternative to topple the power holder. Like what JFK famous quote “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
Moreover, being commie and leftist is two totally different thing, yes Surachai might have been with the commie before but that doesn’t mean that he is still believing in the ideology. Don’t forget that many students that survive the 6th Oct massacre didn’t even believe in the communist ideology but they join the movement anyway after they had been brutally massacre. Which bring me the your point about why Sae Daeng might want to set up barricade near Lumpini, my guess is that he might want to prevent the 6th October sort of similar assault but then thats just a guess.
Thank you for completing more thoroughly Ko Hla Oo intent.
For the benefit of the non Burmese whenever Bamar or Myanmar is used it is generally known that the term represent all relevant ethnicity within the boundary of present Myanmar.
If Bamar is used to described the dominant Bamar l├╗ Myo (ethnic Burmese) it will be stated explicitly.
Significance aside very few people in Myanmar can claim to be pure ethnic Burmese or otherwise.
Regarding violence – all you said is to be applied to the government and the military as well. Denial is not a river in Egypt. There were snipers who have shot, injured and killed unarmed protesters, there were occasions were soldiers have run mad, and have shot not just protesters, but also rescue workers, journalists and completely innocent bystanders.
Instead of taking responsibility over the many blunders and the occasional sheer incompetence displayed in the operations in both planning and operational stages, the involved got promotions. Even though there is more than enough evidence that the security forces have shot the protesters, the government and the military are still lying about it, saying that all the protesters that were killed were killed by the militants in the Red Shirt camp.
Until today the state controlled media have not given any space whatsoever to the injured protesters, and the relatives of the killed protesters.
Under these conditions in do not see any possibility for reconciliation but further escalation. Paying lip service to reconciliation is not enough. If the state, as the overwhelming power, does not make the first step towards reconciliation, and admittance of mistakes, how can anyone expect the Red Shirts to admit in public their own mistakes.
In interviews (for my forthcoming book on the big protests and the dispersal) i have found many Red Shirt leaders far more open and honest over their own mistakes than the government side (who mostly refuse to answer any questions on the record, and only very few people of that side are willing to enter of the record conversations).
I am eagerly awaiting the results of the DSI investigation, especially if the government and the military will allow their findings to be made public, and to be forwarded to the prosecution and in the end to the court.
In a few days there will be a press briefing by the Prime Minister and Ban Ki-moon. Quite disturbing for me, and rather unusual practice – journalists invited to the briefing will have to submit their questions in advance.
Chris #12 – well, she’s certainly controversial in what she wrote about and did in Thailand. There is disagreement over whether she had any influence at all. Some critics say that she was in no way responsible for King Chulalongkorn liberating slaves and that this was a strategic political process of ‘modernisation’ (read ‘westernisation’). The films made out that it was only Anna’s teaching that led to her former pupil freeing slaves. I tend to think it was more the former than the latter, but teachers do influence us as people, especially teachers who are a bit different, as Anna would have been to the princes and princesses.
So, I don’t think we can rule out the idea of Anna having some influence on the way King Chulalongkorn came to think. She was teaching at the palace for more than five years, which is a long time in a child’s life. Usually we have a teacher for a year and then move on. Unfortunately, the only records we have regarding Anna’s lessons are those she wrote herself (and even so, they don’t take up a large proportion of her books). Some critics have used this to say she therefore wasn’t important as a teacher at all, but I don’t think that’s a correct assumption. I mean, I’m a writer and I haven’t ever written more than an anecdotal sentence about any of my teachers, even the few who were supremely influential. I think about them from time to time, though, and I know their teaching has influenced me, particularly a teacher I had when I was about 9 years old.
Caron Dann #8 :
what a great tribute that link you give is to a truly liberating woman, whose greatest legacy is probably the influence she had on the King’s children and what she taught them, most especially
the supremely liberating Chulalongkorn – who over a thirty-year, hard-fought battle against reaction – freed Siam’s slaves.
Thanks for this excellent blog. I follow your blog since a while and it is really helpful in trying to understand the complex situation in Thailand! (especially from abroad)
No. Modern communist China and Vietnam might have made capitalist in-road but their violent nature will always remain. You will know what I mean if you have been to these two countries.
The entire anti-govt movement can’t be portrayed in a stroke of a brush. I don’t think Abhisit would succumb even if it was 1 mln redshirts this spring protest. Violence is always essential in any revolution. All the ‘ahimsa’ type is a load… You know why the late Seh Daeng had Lumphini Park barricaded? The veil they hide behind! Whatever they say must be taken with a pinch of salt! This is especially true with the commies.
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King Bhumibol’s enduring hospitalisation
I’m afraid that doesn’t work in my particular portion of Bangkok real estate.
blocked
Ji Ungpakorn on the military and the monarchy
Excellent article Giles.
Ji Ungpakorn on the military and the monarchy
Yes, I very much fear that Ji has it about right, and the more repression and oppression that are used, the more likely it is that change, when it comes (as come it must and come it therefore will) will be violent.
It would be prudent of those in power and those ascending the ladders of power to be careful whose head they stomp on (in typical Thai pooyay fashion) on the way up the ladder, because they will certainly meet them again on the way down. When they are no position to stomp on anyone.
I forsee many, many exiles, come the day, and they will then discover for themselves that Thais and Thailand have no friends outside Thailand, even their close neighbours cannot abide them, such is their habitual behaviour.
Ji Ungpakorn on the military and the monarchy
That’s the mainstream view by now, isn’t it?
Burma in Limbo, Part 3
Charles F.,
You sure it wasn’t plan B scratching Than Shwe’s ass in the shower? Wondered where he’d been.
He accuses everyone of relying on the West. His love-hate obsession with the West is pathological. He’s the one who believes the West is everything, good and bad in relation to Burma. Incurable condition I reckon
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
‘Why do you care which side I want to join?’- Tarrin (#18)
I already know which side you are with Tarrin. I just wish to know whether or not you’ll ‘flinch’. And you did flinch Tarrin, and that’s encouraging sign.
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
Vichai N -17
Sombat has never hidden his disgust at some of Thaksin’s tactics. In fact, many Red shirts leaders are wary of Dr.T himself.
Your political information on Thailand is very much inaccurate.
King Bhumibol’s enduring hospitalisation
TPP is blocked on most ISPs in Thailand. but as for any wordpress.com hosted site you can get around it by using http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
VichaiN -17
Why do you care which side I want to join?
Do you think the red only got the sort like Sae Dang or Nattawut? there are many other red groups like Sombat of Red Sunday or the Red Ant group just to name a fews.
Btw, I never want to be anyone leader or trying to be one. This might be the first time in the history of Thailand that a large part of its population have become political wary. If someone wants to lead this movement then time will be the only factor to select the suitable leader. Thaksin tried to lead the red, he fail, so now we just have to wait for another one. Why do you think the red still able to easily muster 10,000 easily every time there’s a major rally with most of its leaders either fled or in jail?
if you sincerely aspire to be a Red leader, the one and only caveat is that you must have demonstrated ‘unflinching fealty’ to Thaksin Shinawatra, the one and only de-facto Supreme Red Leader.
That’s a pretty cheap assumption don’t you think? first Thaksin is not the only billionaire in the country so there are many other capable individual that are willing to pay more for their political gain. If you really want to talk about selling your “unflinching fealty” then Newin or Suthep is as fealty. How do you think Tarit Piengdit got the position as the chief of DSI if its not because of Suthep?
Burma in Limbo, Part 3
plan B #25
Any drones flying over Burma and Thailand can see all the way to the ground, day or night, rain or shine.
Besides state of the art optics, they utilize FLIR, heat sensors and other, more classified electronics.
If SG Than Shwe is scratching his ass in the shower, they can see it.
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
Tarrin (#16) – Seriously and sincerely, do you see yourself joining and following the likes of Seh Daeng (whose motto definitely must have been ‘change thru increasing violence’), or Nattawut/Jatuporn (the Baht 1o0 million pre-paid Red leaders)?
One other thing Tarrin – if you sincerely aspire to be a Red leader, the one and only caveat is that you must have demonstrated ‘unflinching fealty’ to Thaksin Shinawatra, the one and only de-facto Supreme Red Leader. Unflinching fealty comes much easier, it seems, when there is a huge Thaksin paycheck involved.
Burma in Limbo, Part 3
Ko Hla Oo #14
Consider these sobering facts:
1)SPDC is relentlessly successful in achieving control in every aspect at the expense of the citizenry well beings.
2)Side line the paramour of the west Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to no more than “a house wife”.
3)Having uncle Wen as a permanent guardian/sponsor, a reliable cover bought through the Yadanab├┤ne pipe line to China.
Does these facts make SPDC look like a retarded entity labeled by USA, EU and Australia as thugs goons and such? Or rather make the west looks like nothing more than peanut gallery crazies. Yet the west continue to march on to the beat of the drum of belittling the Idiot Savant.
If not for the miserable plight of the citizenry this might have been the greatest joke that uncle Wen and SG Than Shwe can exchange over state dinners make possible only because of USA led policies that every single western democracy acquiesce to.
Ko Moe Aung #15
Still relying on the west obvious useless careless approach to work? The drones may be effective from the opened desert terrain within Iraq and Afghanistan against elements within Iran and Pakistan but rather useless from Thailand with the tropical foliage.
Cunning has not begin to describe the SPDC as shown here #16. Misinformation, misdirection, covert activities and blatant lies
When the next level of confidence in defiance is accomplished with the help of DPRK, it is not a far fetch scenario where SPDC will be supplying the Red shirts to format unrest in Thailand, or encourage the Thai Military to take over instead of the usual deluge of refugees to show the greedy neighbor who really is in charge.
Cunning or cunning as a fox?
Burma in Limbo, Part 3
plan B
I agree the terms Bamar and Myanmar are used in the same way by the majority to include everyone like the term Burmese in English. Although the minorities are likely to disagree, they will nonetheless find themselves especially as asylum seekers called Burmese by the host country. The term Burman was used by the colonial rulers to distinguish the majority from the rest.
Pure Burmese mainly live in remote villages. Most urban folk are of mixed ancestry and call themselves Bamar or Myanmar, the latter being an older and more formal literary term.
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
denyzofisarn- 13
Before you pass a judgment on them maybe you want to take a look on what they really have to offer?
http://redsiam.info/board/index.php?topic=71.0
here is the link for Red Siam’s road map
Furthermore, not every revolution needs to be violence one, take Spain after Francisco death for example. See how they manage to transformed from fascist dictatorship to a prosperous democracy. Usually people would op for arm struggled only because they find no other alternative to topple the power holder. Like what JFK famous quote “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
Moreover, being commie and leftist is two totally different thing, yes Surachai might have been with the commie before but that doesn’t mean that he is still believing in the ideology. Don’t forget that many students that survive the 6th Oct massacre didn’t even believe in the communist ideology but they join the movement anyway after they had been brutally massacre. Which bring me the your point about why Sae Daeng might want to set up barricade near Lumpini, my guess is that he might want to prevent the 6th October sort of similar assault but then thats just a guess.
Burma in Limbo, Part 3
Maung Maung #19 #20
Thank you for completing more thoroughly Ko Hla Oo intent.
For the benefit of the non Burmese whenever Bamar or Myanmar is used it is generally known that the term represent all relevant ethnicity within the boundary of present Myanmar.
If Bamar is used to described the dominant Bamar l├╗ Myo (ethnic Burmese) it will be stated explicitly.
Significance aside very few people in Myanmar can claim to be pure ethnic Burmese or otherwise.
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
“Chris”:
Thank you very much 🙂
“denyzofisarn”:
Regarding violence – all you said is to be applied to the government and the military as well. Denial is not a river in Egypt. There were snipers who have shot, injured and killed unarmed protesters, there were occasions were soldiers have run mad, and have shot not just protesters, but also rescue workers, journalists and completely innocent bystanders.
Instead of taking responsibility over the many blunders and the occasional sheer incompetence displayed in the operations in both planning and operational stages, the involved got promotions. Even though there is more than enough evidence that the security forces have shot the protesters, the government and the military are still lying about it, saying that all the protesters that were killed were killed by the militants in the Red Shirt camp.
Until today the state controlled media have not given any space whatsoever to the injured protesters, and the relatives of the killed protesters.
Under these conditions in do not see any possibility for reconciliation but further escalation. Paying lip service to reconciliation is not enough. If the state, as the overwhelming power, does not make the first step towards reconciliation, and admittance of mistakes, how can anyone expect the Red Shirts to admit in public their own mistakes.
In interviews (for my forthcoming book on the big protests and the dispersal) i have found many Red Shirt leaders far more open and honest over their own mistakes than the government side (who mostly refuse to answer any questions on the record, and only very few people of that side are willing to enter of the record conversations).
I am eagerly awaiting the results of the DSI investigation, especially if the government and the military will allow their findings to be made public, and to be forwarded to the prosecution and in the end to the court.
In a few days there will be a press briefing by the Prime Minister and Ban Ki-moon. Quite disturbing for me, and rather unusual practice – journalists invited to the briefing will have to submit their questions in advance.
Review of Bombay Anna
Chris #12 – well, she’s certainly controversial in what she wrote about and did in Thailand. There is disagreement over whether she had any influence at all. Some critics say that she was in no way responsible for King Chulalongkorn liberating slaves and that this was a strategic political process of ‘modernisation’ (read ‘westernisation’). The films made out that it was only Anna’s teaching that led to her former pupil freeing slaves. I tend to think it was more the former than the latter, but teachers do influence us as people, especially teachers who are a bit different, as Anna would have been to the princes and princesses.
So, I don’t think we can rule out the idea of Anna having some influence on the way King Chulalongkorn came to think. She was teaching at the palace for more than five years, which is a long time in a child’s life. Usually we have a teacher for a year and then move on. Unfortunately, the only records we have regarding Anna’s lessons are those she wrote herself (and even so, they don’t take up a large proportion of her books). Some critics have used this to say she therefore wasn’t important as a teacher at all, but I don’t think that’s a correct assumption. I mean, I’m a writer and I haven’t ever written more than an anecdotal sentence about any of my teachers, even the few who were supremely influential. I think about them from time to time, though, and I know their teaching has influenced me, particularly a teacher I had when I was about 9 years old.
Review of Bombay Anna
Caron Dann #8 :
what a great tribute that link you give is to a truly liberating woman, whose greatest legacy is probably the influence she had on the King’s children and what she taught them, most especially
the supremely liberating Chulalongkorn – who over a thirty-year, hard-fought battle against reaction – freed Siam’s slaves.
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
Thanks for this excellent blog. I follow your blog since a while and it is really helpful in trying to understand the complex situation in Thailand! (especially from abroad)
Best from Saigon!
Chris
The Red Shirts in Ayutthaya
Tarrin
No. Modern communist China and Vietnam might have made capitalist in-road but their violent nature will always remain. You will know what I mean if you have been to these two countries.
The entire anti-govt movement can’t be portrayed in a stroke of a brush. I don’t think Abhisit would succumb even if it was 1 mln redshirts this spring protest. Violence is always essential in any revolution. All the ‘ahimsa’ type is a load… You know why the late Seh Daeng had Lumphini Park barricaded? The veil they hide behind! Whatever they say must be taken with a pinch of salt! This is especially true with the commies.