John Francis Lee #14 :
If it’s any comfort to you, I’ve had some problems like this in the past with NM website – first time it happened I sent off a somewhat shirty e-mail to Andrew, but it soon became obvious the problems were technical, not censorship – and I apologised.
We have to bare in mind that although NM is based at the most prestigious University in Australia for Asian Studies, they nonethelsss have very human constraints of funding, time, personel, etc.
Bear with them – they do a damn good job, especially given the difficulties and complexities of covering Thailand. Altogether a great service.
Well… they’re all lit up like a Christmas tree now! Glancing at my FoxyProxy tell on status line shows that I am accessing you without a proxy right now.
Since I live in the Thai Police State, I usually view the web through my proxy, in the US… so that I CAN view the web. The proxy is cached… perhaps it is responsible for the weirdness I’ve observed.
If I see it again, I’ll check the proxy. I thought that perhaps it was your WordPress software trying to be too clever by half, but since you disavow that I’ll have to assume that its my software being too dumb.
Andrew and Chris Baker, I quite see the points you are both making here – but it also needs to be said that what matters as far as political consiousness and potential action is concerned, is how the farmers, “poor, etc. see themselves.
I.e. ultimately it is not so much a matter of their OBJECTIVE situation (eg. according to income charts, et.), but their SUBJECTIVE assessment of themselves which fuels the socio-political dynamic.
There’s some hint of this in what Chris Baker says – but I think this point needs to be made more explicit.
” . . .but using “bloodshedding” to describe the ritual and “suicide” to describe the deaths is a cynical abuse of meaning.” (#31)
Was it really cynical Tom Hoy? I think because the Red followers, who were mostly reckless, definitely unwise and misguided were unforgivably maliciously misled by their leadership, thus remove whatever ‘meaning’ was intended for any of the Red rituals before and after Black May 2010. It was NOT the death of democracy Tom Hoy but the death of reason.
Hi John, sounds like some sort of glitch to me. We have neither the desire nor the time (nor technical capacity) to selectively close off voting on some comments. As you know, I am a big fan of voting! AW
These people were shot. They didn’t shoot themselves. Call them reckless, unwise , misguided, misled fools and patsies if you want, even say the Red leaders sacrificed them but using “bloodshedding” to describe the ritual and “suicide” to describe the deaths is a cynical abuse of meaning.
Why were 1,2,4,5,8,9,10,11 open for voting up or down when I visited this page, but 3,6,7,12,13 closed? This is the first time I’ve visited this page so it’s not possible that I already voted for the comments in question?
I’ve noted this before but thought that if I looked a little more intently I’d discern a pattern.
The voting business is a sort of barometer of peoples sympathies, but I find neither rhyme nor reason behind your selective closing of voting on some postings but not others.
In fact, I suspect that if Thais really knew who set off all the bombs, we would be half way to a solution.
Well a good start may be asking MP Wisut what he knows. I guess you wouldn’t disagree with that would you Leah? There always has to be a starting point doesn’t there?
Still no red shirt supporters want to tackle the strange ending of Veera’s protest. I see he visited the other red shirt leaders in prison yesterday, but still refuses to talk because he says that is the condition of his bail.
Still bail conditions don’t seem to shut up Jataporn who is threatening to sue Methee for saying he went off with all the money. He says if you want to know where all the money has gone ask one of Veera’s female relatives. Was it a sister-in-law?
Stuart, the post is about Thai rural incomes. If you were a rural/peasant household earning 360,000 baht per year I wouldn’t hesitate to call you a “rich peasant”. AW
The situation is far worse than any foreigners can imagine. After the massacre in May, the killing and arresting without any warrant has not stopped. Many of the red-shirts have to run for their life. In Chiengmai, a nice looking young man who was a red-shirt member was brutally shot, he died a few days later in the hospital. Many more of them were killed mercilessly by heavily armed gun men.
The human-right group is a waste of money in Thailand. This group is set up to serve those elites in Thailand. They never care and never represent the poor. Instead of opposing any coup, they support the coup. They never open their mouths about the double-standard in this country. They never complaint about this government closing down more than 100,000 websites.
Thailand is now a “FAILED STATE.” I think they need a revolution.
I agree strongly with LesAbbey that a rigorous analysis of the use of bombing as a political tool in Thailand would be extremely useful. In fact, I suspect that if Thais really knew who set off all the bombs, we would be half way to a solution. I do not know who set of all the bombs, but guess the answer is a lot of different groups.
The investigation should include the New Years Eve bombings, the purported assassination attempt against Thaksin, RPGs on Silom as well as the numerous smaller ones.
I would guess that we could gain a lot just by compiling existing documentation and media reports following the events. Much seemed to be revealed in the days after that have since been forgotten.
As a connected, or separate topic, I would love to see a comparison of the role of the Indonesian military when in its strength with the Thai military. Of particular interest would be the involvement of the Indonesian army in East Timor, especially the facts that have been revealed about their role in supporting militias and violence.
If I were in Canberra, I would love to attend the presentation.
Having said that, I have a few comments after reading the outline of your presentation
It is stated:
“The events left at least 91 dead, over 2000 injured, and hundreds arrested for alleged violations of the Emergency Decree or terrorism. Five months after the end of the violence in the streets, the Bangkok metropolitan area and many additional provinces remain under Emergency Rule. The precise roles of state and other actors during the violence remains unclear. Dissent and speech remain curtailed, with continuing arrests of journalists and web activists. Within this context, human rights are both in crisis and a potential source of redress.”
I agree with the statement in the website and not going to ask for clarification on ‘the role is unclear’ because I think the matter of clarity is there. The state has emphasized their roles quite clearly in the local and international media.
In fact, I wonder if you use cause-effect rationale to analyse the situation, the key question is who caused the violence and why did they perform an act of violence? I expect this to be part of your presentation because it will generate a better conversations among us on human right issues.
I didn’t realize Tom Hoy (#29) was expecting a response from me for Hoy’s opinion that ” . . . MattB trickily conflates mumbo-jumbo ritual etc etc”. Well . . . there were no tricks and my opinion stands “I have yet so see any artistic or aesthetic symbolic works that define the Red anger and angst. The mumbo-jumbo blood shedding by the Reds around March/Apr2010 . . . was not it . . . etc. etc.”.
Black May 2010 and the 91 bloodshedding deaths could have been avoided . The deaths were needless and hardly symbolic. But the Red leadership was certainly intent on a suicidal course for their ardent followers . . . that much Tom Hoy should not deny.
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How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
John Francis Lee #14 :
If it’s any comfort to you, I’ve had some problems like this in the past with NM website – first time it happened I sent off a somewhat shirty e-mail to Andrew, but it soon became obvious the problems were technical, not censorship – and I apologised.
We have to bare in mind that although NM is based at the most prestigious University in Australia for Asian Studies, they nonethelsss have very human constraints of funding, time, personel, etc.
Bear with them – they do a damn good job, especially given the difficulties and complexities of covering Thailand. Altogether a great service.
Najib’s first year in office, conclusion
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On the Brink: Human Rights in Thailand
Well – shortly after having said that, @5pm (Thai time)this Thursday 14/10/2010), Abhisit’s government ordered troops into every district of Bangkok and neighbouring provinces :
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/201387/troops-deployed-in-bangkok
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
Well… they’re all lit up like a Christmas tree now! Glancing at my FoxyProxy tell on status line shows that I am accessing you without a proxy right now.
Since I live in the Thai Police State, I usually view the web through my proxy, in the US… so that I CAN view the web. The proxy is cached… perhaps it is responsible for the weirdness I’ve observed.
If I see it again, I’ll check the proxy. I thought that perhaps it was your WordPress software trying to be too clever by half, but since you disavow that I’ll have to assume that its my software being too dumb.
Thanks for the clarification.
The dominance of the middle-income peasants
Andrew and Chris Baker, I quite see the points you are both making here – but it also needs to be said that what matters as far as political consiousness and potential action is concerned, is how the farmers, “poor, etc. see themselves.
I.e. ultimately it is not so much a matter of their OBJECTIVE situation (eg. according to income charts, et.), but their SUBJECTIVE assessment of themselves which fuels the socio-political dynamic.
There’s some hint of this in what Chris Baker says – but I think this point needs to be made more explicit.
Red art: Democracy Monument April 12 2010
” . . .but using “bloodshedding” to describe the ritual and “suicide” to describe the deaths is a cynical abuse of meaning.” (#31)
Was it really cynical Tom Hoy? I think because the Red followers, who were mostly reckless, definitely unwise and misguided were unforgivably maliciously misled by their leadership, thus remove whatever ‘meaning’ was intended for any of the Red rituals before and after Black May 2010. It was NOT the death of democracy Tom Hoy but the death of reason.
On the Brink: Human Rights in Thailand
Srithanonchai: what is the point you are making? The thing is at ANU, so it would look ANU, wouldn’t it? Is there deeper meaning to your comment?
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
Hi John, sounds like some sort of glitch to me. We have neither the desire nor the time (nor technical capacity) to selectively close off voting on some comments. As you know, I am a big fan of voting! AW
Red art: Democracy Monument April 12 2010
mattB
These people were shot. They didn’t shoot themselves. Call them reckless, unwise , misguided, misled fools and patsies if you want, even say the Red leaders sacrificed them but using “bloodshedding” to describe the ritual and “suicide” to describe the deaths is a cynical abuse of meaning.
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
Why were 1,2,4,5,8,9,10,11 open for voting up or down when I visited this page, but 3,6,7,12,13 closed? This is the first time I’ve visited this page so it’s not possible that I already voted for the comments in question?
I’ve noted this before but thought that if I looked a little more intently I’d discern a pattern.
The voting business is a sort of barometer of peoples sympathies, but I find neither rhyme nor reason behind your selective closing of voting on some postings but not others.
The 13th General Election in Malaysia
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Topics for future discussion on New Mandala
Leah Hoyt – 19
In fact, I suspect that if Thais really knew who set off all the bombs, we would be half way to a solution.
Well a good start may be asking MP Wisut what he knows. I guess you wouldn’t disagree with that would you Leah? There always has to be a starting point doesn’t there?
Still no red shirt supporters want to tackle the strange ending of Veera’s protest. I see he visited the other red shirt leaders in prison yesterday, but still refuses to talk because he says that is the condition of his bail.
Still bail conditions don’t seem to shut up Jataporn who is threatening to sue Methee for saying he went off with all the money. He says if you want to know where all the money has gone ask one of Veera’s female relatives. Was it a sister-in-law?
The dominance of the middle-income peasants
Stuart, the post is about Thai rural incomes. If you were a rural/peasant household earning 360,000 baht per year I wouldn’t hesitate to call you a “rich peasant”. AW
The dominance of the middle-income peasants
So a lowly farang English teacher on a pittance of 30,000 baht per month is considered “rich” according to this scale.
On the Brink: Human Rights in Thailand
The seminar looks rather “farang” and “ANU” to me. Is this intentional?
On the Brink: Human Rights in Thailand
The situation is far worse than any foreigners can imagine. After the massacre in May, the killing and arresting without any warrant has not stopped. Many of the red-shirts have to run for their life. In Chiengmai, a nice looking young man who was a red-shirt member was brutally shot, he died a few days later in the hospital. Many more of them were killed mercilessly by heavily armed gun men.
The human-right group is a waste of money in Thailand. This group is set up to serve those elites in Thailand. They never care and never represent the poor. Instead of opposing any coup, they support the coup. They never open their mouths about the double-standard in this country. They never complaint about this government closing down more than 100,000 websites.
Thailand is now a “FAILED STATE.” I think they need a revolution.
Topics for future discussion on New Mandala
I agree strongly with LesAbbey that a rigorous analysis of the use of bombing as a political tool in Thailand would be extremely useful. In fact, I suspect that if Thais really knew who set off all the bombs, we would be half way to a solution. I do not know who set of all the bombs, but guess the answer is a lot of different groups.
The investigation should include the New Years Eve bombings, the purported assassination attempt against Thaksin, RPGs on Silom as well as the numerous smaller ones.
I would guess that we could gain a lot just by compiling existing documentation and media reports following the events. Much seemed to be revealed in the days after that have since been forgotten.
As a connected, or separate topic, I would love to see a comparison of the role of the Indonesian military when in its strength with the Thai military. Of particular interest would be the involvement of the Indonesian army in East Timor, especially the facts that have been revealed about their role in supporting militias and violence.
On the Brink: Human Rights in Thailand
If I were in Canberra, I would love to attend the presentation.
Having said that, I have a few comments after reading the outline of your presentation
It is stated:
“The events left at least 91 dead, over 2000 injured, and hundreds arrested for alleged violations of the Emergency Decree or terrorism. Five months after the end of the violence in the streets, the Bangkok metropolitan area and many additional provinces remain under Emergency Rule. The precise roles of state and other actors during the violence remains unclear. Dissent and speech remain curtailed, with continuing arrests of journalists and web activists. Within this context, human rights are both in crisis and a potential source of redress.”
I agree with the statement in the website and not going to ask for clarification on ‘the role is unclear’ because I think the matter of clarity is there. The state has emphasized their roles quite clearly in the local and international media.
In fact, I wonder if you use cause-effect rationale to analyse the situation, the key question is who caused the violence and why did they perform an act of violence? I expect this to be part of your presentation because it will generate a better conversations among us on human right issues.
Red art: Democracy Monument April 12 2010
I didn’t realize Tom Hoy (#29) was expecting a response from me for Hoy’s opinion that ” . . . MattB trickily conflates mumbo-jumbo ritual etc etc”. Well . . . there were no tricks and my opinion stands “I have yet so see any artistic or aesthetic symbolic works that define the Red anger and angst. The mumbo-jumbo blood shedding by the Reds around March/Apr2010 . . . was not it . . . etc. etc.”.
Black May 2010 and the 91 bloodshedding deaths could have been avoided . The deaths were needless and hardly symbolic. But the Red leadership was certainly intent on a suicidal course for their ardent followers . . . that much Tom Hoy should not deny.
The 13th General Election in Malaysia
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