I’ve been living in the rural area of Northern Chiang Mai for 1 years. The majority of the people I know are heavily in debt to send their kids to the good high schools in the city, and to college or tech schools, the rest for vehicles or building houses.
It would be great to have a lot more on this web-site about
“Thailand’s” fantastic culture – eg. food, music.
How about something about Sek Loso ? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdo15PuDDI
How about something about Isarn Mor Lam music ?
How about something about Carabao – there are many academic studies.
michael, thanks for your comment on the art scene: I found nothing to disagree with. I guess I’m too easily impressed when I see a dance sequence at the Patravadi taking the piss out of those interminable “Ramayana” interpretations.
Granted it’s not “in your face” agitprop, but it’s a start and maybe it’s the best we can hope for given the Thai way of doing things.
I Googled for images of “Pink Man” the other day. What I got was Khun Manit’s model with the shopping trolley juxtaposed with another pink man and a Zimmer frame. What was Google thinking?
Art on flip flops seems to be the latest development here; vendors are being arrested for selling these items with images of Abhisit and Suthep on them. No matter the PAD did the same thing with images of Thaksin. Double standards continue to gallop.
If anyone gets a chance to see the film “Agrarian Utopia”, it gives a useful insight into the plight of the debt ridden Thai tenant farmer (in this case Northern Thai).
Also, can we have the source of the figure of 144,000 Baht annual income for tenant farmers?
Excellent Andrew, excellent.
“the “middle-income peasants” who now make up a majority of Thailand’s rural population” certainly explains the core constituency Thaksin captured – but which is now wavering.
Can you explain in more detail how exactly the debt enhances agricultural productivity? What sorts of investments are made? Also, the statistical breakdowns of the uses of debt you provide seem to indicate that a relatively modest amount goes towards agriculture. How do these statistics correlate with your conclusions?
I lived in the north for a while, poor farmers there would use their land titles as guarantees with the local Chinese merchants for buying fertilizer, pesticide etc. I recall that later they had to sell their harvest through the merchant for low prices ensuring the poverty cycle would rotate for the next year. Additionally the merchants as far as I was told have managed to accumulate quite a bit of land, serfdom is alive and well in many forms in Thailand.
Well, yes, Rama X will need protection, especially in the viewpoint of those who benefit from the cover of monarchy, ie people who support LM for practical rather than passionate reasons. This will include the military, social conservatives, genuine royalists, the titled elite, and average Thais who just like having a king, any king.
Numerically, this will add up to a fraction of the percentage of Thais who support LM currently because of their emotional attachment to Rama 9. This passionate majority is what makes LM possible in its current form, in my view. I have met many educated, otherwise reasonable Thais who will support LM, justice be damned, just to stop the possibility that the king could hear an insult in Thai in his lifetime.
That’s the power of love. Rama X will have to settle for the power of everything else.
“Once most Thais exit the last stage of grief, say a year after the funeral, support for LM will dwindle to those who believe in it independently of their feelings for Rama 9.”
But will the new king not also have to be protected against criticism? And is this not less dependent on the feelings of individuals than on the state’s raison d’etre?
I’d like to see some discussion – even anecdotal – of how the various countries in the region view each other, and perhaps some discussion of possible historical reasons for the apparent level of trust/distrust/respect/lack of respect. Of course, Australia is part of that region…
This isn’t much of a comment but more of a question that’s been bothering me for a while. What is the awareness amongst Thais of the punishment for lese majeste? I don’t live in Thailand and so was astonished to be told by my 19 year old niece from Khon Kaen that the punishment for speaking ill of HM was “the police will come and shoot you and then they’ll go and shoot your family”. My obvious reply was to ask whether she had ever actually heard of this happening to anyone? She said “No, but there are a lot of secrets around the royal family”.
I am quite sure she was genuine but have no idea whether this is just her reading only, a school-yard urban myth, or more commonly propagated. It is something parents tell their young children to scare the bejesus out of them and spare the family any potential trouble? I suppose the issue (of specific punishment) is rarely, if ever, discussed in the home, school or the media. Nor would I think there is much incentive for authorities to correct any misunderstandings that may exist – unless they want to consider how much worse the comeuppance may be from a people forced to live their whole life with this sort of (very much real even if misplaced) fear.
I know Thailand and the Thai military have been covered a lot on New Mandala but I don’t think I’ve seen much regarding the role of compulsory military service in political indoctrination. I am thinking not only of reinforcing Nation, Religion and Monarchy but also creating a positive image for the military itself. I am often surprised at the acceptance, and even admiration, Thais have towards the military, despite all they’ve done to the country and its people. This positive opinion is certainly not held with regard to the police, or in fact many other areas of public service.
I realise there are factors that may influence these opinions, such as: military TV channels; a hierarchical society that complements military structures; a close association with the highest institution; the Thai tendency to dichotomise everything (police bad / army good); simple fear. I was wondering though how much of a role service training (either the proper boot camps or the substitute class room stuff for girls and (well-connected?) boys moulds young minds? How does it compare to the serious brain washing given to say, for example, Israeli conscipts, or is it more subtle?
It might be more instructive to look at numbers regarding how these debts are secured and specifically how many land owners are close to foreclosure and over what lengths of time.
No matter what the apparent short-term economic benefits, a perpetual cycle of lend-forclose-sell by the banks and other formal lenders is not a long-term economic or social good.
Didn’t take long for you to come up with that old chestnut, did it?
Classic confusion between wisdom and degeneration with age. Reminds me of Thakin Kodaw Hmaing’s adage that people can endure poverty but cannot withstand the corruption of wealth. Perhaps Lord Aston overlooked wealth when he talked about power.
The trajectory from young, selfless and radical to middle age, middle class, selfish and right wing, aided and abetted by setbacks and defeats in the struggle, is as old as history. You could of course grow a spine.
Messrs Reagan & Thatcher were only working and capitalising on man’s baser instincts, greed and selfishness – ‘looking out for number one’.
They not only brought down the evil empire but social cohesion and civic pride in the community. Surprise, surprise.
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How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
The “Agrarian Utopia” is really a good independent Thai Movie.
http://movie.mthai.com/movie-profile/new-movie/69658.html
Sorry i couldn’t find any english link for it. If you want to see the movie you will find it in every good movie vcd rental shop.
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
I’ve been living in the rural area of Northern Chiang Mai for 1 years. The majority of the people I know are heavily in debt to send their kids to the good high schools in the city, and to college or tech schools, the rest for vehicles or building houses.
Topics for future discussion on New Mandala
It would be great to have a lot more on this web-site about
“Thailand’s” fantastic culture – eg. food, music.
How about something about Sek Loso ? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdo15PuDDI
How about something about Isarn Mor Lam music ?
How about something about Carabao – there are many academic studies.
Red art: Democracy Monument April 12 2010
michael, thanks for your comment on the art scene: I found nothing to disagree with. I guess I’m too easily impressed when I see a dance sequence at the Patravadi taking the piss out of those interminable “Ramayana” interpretations.
Granted it’s not “in your face” agitprop, but it’s a start and maybe it’s the best we can hope for given the Thai way of doing things.
I Googled for images of “Pink Man” the other day. What I got was Khun Manit’s model with the shopping trolley juxtaposed with another pink man and a Zimmer frame. What was Google thinking?
Art on flip flops seems to be the latest development here; vendors are being arrested for selling these items with images of Abhisit and Suthep on them. No matter the PAD did the same thing with images of Thaksin. Double standards continue to gallop.
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
If anyone gets a chance to see the film “Agrarian Utopia”, it gives a useful insight into the plight of the debt ridden Thai tenant farmer (in this case Northern Thai).
Also, can we have the source of the figure of 144,000 Baht annual income for tenant farmers?
And is a 73% debt burden truly not onerous?
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
Excellent Andrew, excellent.
“the “middle-income peasants” who now make up a majority of Thailand’s rural population” certainly explains the core constituency Thaksin captured – but which is now wavering.
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
Another question would be what is the debt for? Is it for a new piece of farm equipment that will help increase productivity or for a new TV?
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
Can you explain in more detail how exactly the debt enhances agricultural productivity? What sorts of investments are made? Also, the statistical breakdowns of the uses of debt you provide seem to indicate that a relatively modest amount goes towards agriculture. How do these statistics correlate with your conclusions?
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
I lived in the north for a while, poor farmers there would use their land titles as guarantees with the local Chinese merchants for buying fertilizer, pesticide etc. I recall that later they had to sell their harvest through the merchant for low prices ensuring the poverty cycle would rotate for the next year. Additionally the merchants as far as I was told have managed to accumulate quite a bit of land, serfdom is alive and well in many forms in Thailand.
Red art: Democracy Monument April 12 2010
Those who have found Tom Hoy’s article & this discussion interesting may also find a re-visit to http://www.newmandala.org/2009/01/29/pads-last-day-at-government-house/
worthwhile, since it shows many examples of PAD art. (thanks to Random Images for reminding me!)
David Streckfuss on lese majeste
Srithanonchai #9:
Well, yes, Rama X will need protection, especially in the viewpoint of those who benefit from the cover of monarchy, ie people who support LM for practical rather than passionate reasons. This will include the military, social conservatives, genuine royalists, the titled elite, and average Thais who just like having a king, any king.
Numerically, this will add up to a fraction of the percentage of Thais who support LM currently because of their emotional attachment to Rama 9. This passionate majority is what makes LM possible in its current form, in my view. I have met many educated, otherwise reasonable Thais who will support LM, justice be damned, just to stop the possibility that the king could hear an insult in Thai in his lifetime.
That’s the power of love. Rama X will have to settle for the power of everything else.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 3 (р╣Бр╕Ыр╕ер╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕ар╕▓р╕йр╕▓р╣Др╕Чр╕в)
it is very good discussion.
David Streckfuss on lese majeste
WLH # 4
“Once most Thais exit the last stage of grief, say a year after the funeral, support for LM will dwindle to those who believe in it independently of their feelings for Rama 9.”
But will the new king not also have to be protected against criticism? And is this not less dependent on the feelings of individuals than on the state’s raison d’etre?
Topics for future discussion on New Mandala
The role of family and clan connections among politicians in the region.
Topics for future discussion on New Mandala
I’d like to see some discussion – even anecdotal – of how the various countries in the region view each other, and perhaps some discussion of possible historical reasons for the apparent level of trust/distrust/respect/lack of respect. Of course, Australia is part of that region…
David Streckfuss on lese majeste
This isn’t much of a comment but more of a question that’s been bothering me for a while. What is the awareness amongst Thais of the punishment for lese majeste? I don’t live in Thailand and so was astonished to be told by my 19 year old niece from Khon Kaen that the punishment for speaking ill of HM was “the police will come and shoot you and then they’ll go and shoot your family”. My obvious reply was to ask whether she had ever actually heard of this happening to anyone? She said “No, but there are a lot of secrets around the royal family”.
I am quite sure she was genuine but have no idea whether this is just her reading only, a school-yard urban myth, or more commonly propagated. It is something parents tell their young children to scare the bejesus out of them and spare the family any potential trouble? I suppose the issue (of specific punishment) is rarely, if ever, discussed in the home, school or the media. Nor would I think there is much incentive for authorities to correct any misunderstandings that may exist – unless they want to consider how much worse the comeuppance may be from a people forced to live their whole life with this sort of (very much real even if misplaced) fear.
Topics for future discussion on New Mandala
I know Thailand and the Thai military have been covered a lot on New Mandala but I don’t think I’ve seen much regarding the role of compulsory military service in political indoctrination. I am thinking not only of reinforcing Nation, Religion and Monarchy but also creating a positive image for the military itself. I am often surprised at the acceptance, and even admiration, Thais have towards the military, despite all they’ve done to the country and its people. This positive opinion is certainly not held with regard to the police, or in fact many other areas of public service.
I realise there are factors that may influence these opinions, such as: military TV channels; a hierarchical society that complements military structures; a close association with the highest institution; the Thai tendency to dichotomise everything (police bad / army good); simple fear. I was wondering though how much of a role service training (either the proper boot camps or the substitute class room stuff for girls and (well-connected?) boys moulds young minds? How does it compare to the serious brain washing given to say, for example, Israeli conscipts, or is it more subtle?
How much of a burden is rural debt in Thailand?
It might be more instructive to look at numbers regarding how these debts are secured and specifically how many land owners are close to foreclosure and over what lengths of time.
No matter what the apparent short-term economic benefits, a perpetual cycle of lend-forclose-sell by the banks and other formal lenders is not a long-term economic or social good.
David Streckfuss on lese majeste
Thank you, David Streckfuss, for this enli9ghtening book.
Critics of Aung San Suu Kyi say…
Hla Oo #12
Didn’t take long for you to come up with that old chestnut, did it?
Classic confusion between wisdom and degeneration with age. Reminds me of Thakin Kodaw Hmaing’s adage that people can endure poverty but cannot withstand the corruption of wealth. Perhaps Lord Aston overlooked wealth when he talked about power.
The trajectory from young, selfless and radical to middle age, middle class, selfish and right wing, aided and abetted by setbacks and defeats in the struggle, is as old as history. You could of course grow a spine.
Messrs Reagan & Thatcher were only working and capitalising on man’s baser instincts, greed and selfishness – ‘looking out for number one’.
They not only brought down the evil empire but social cohesion and civic pride in the community. Surprise, surprise.