Unfortunately ASSK believed in not splitting the army in 1988 and refused to work with U Nu because these actions would lead to civil war. Unless you were in a state of denial, civil war had been raging in ethnic homelands for four decades already and in the Burmese heartlands too till 1967. The popular uprising could have established a parallel government that dissident army factions could rally to and the international community could openly support and assist in a very concrete way. Cory Aquino achieved what she did with the help of General Ramos and Defense Minister Enrile breaking away from Marcos.
Her Achilles’ heel remains her total commitment to non-violence. It is also the crucial difference from her father. As far as the generals are concerned, it’s a no holds barred contest while she fights with both arms tied behind her back. She may have expected to win like the velvet and colour revolutions in Europe, but she should have known the Burmese situation better. Our generals are Burmese.
That’s an unfair comparison.
Her father was dealing with a very different set of circumstances – eg. he could go for military training in Japan, she can not.
First, let me say that nothing is more pathetic than a reader who cries out against moderation when (s)he tries to post a comment on a website, as though a website administrator is under some obligation to publish every word and every thought of every reader who taps on his keyboard, without regard to any other considerations.
For many years I published my own blog. It is gone now, but for a number of years it was moderately popular with a certain group of readers and I am unequivocal in my conviction that there is no quicker or surer way to destroy a website than for the administrator to abandon responsibility for controlling the discussion in the comments section. The administrator has an obligation to herself, as well as her readers, to manage the site.
I would have to second the advice given by superanonymous (31) to Jonny above; if you want to have completely unfettered ability to say whatever you want, set up your own blog. I did it, and so can you. It’s easy and it’s free and no one (aside from, perhaps the Thai government) is going to stop you from saying anything and everything you want to say. But it’s childish to throw a tantrum because the administrators of another website won’t allow you to run freely through their comments printing any stream-of-consciousness string of thoughts that you manage to cobble together.
Secondly, I personally find threats from a commenter towards the administrator to be, not only unbecoming and uncalled-for, but… well… comic and sad as well.
Here, I’m thinking specifically of Jonny’s (#28) ultimatum that the administrators publish his moderated comments or email him to explain their reasons for not doing so. “There is no 3rd option available. Not any that are…advised.”
Ridiculous posturing.
Finally, I feel compelled to step in with my own two-satang’s worth about “the law… is.the.law“.
I take it that Jonny would have everyone accept that there is no such thing as a bad law, or that, if there is, there is no justification for complaining about its application; that once a parliment, or congress, or central committee, or junta has promulgated a law it cannot be challenged — only adhered to.
In Jonny’s world if someone is arrested under a bad law, that arrest can’t be criticized because the law… is.the.law.
Balderdash.
This is the “I only made the trains run on time” defense.
Like Jonny, I don’t seek to equate lese majeste with the wholesale slaughter of millions of people, but since the subject of the Holocaust is on the table, please let me remind Jonny that in Hitler’s Germany there was a similar unquestioning obedience to laws and orders; the law… was.the.law and an order… was.an.order.
History shows that the civilized people of the world do not accept that idea. There are illegal orders, and they should not be followed. There are bad laws, and they should be protested and changed. There are unnecessary comments, and they should be moderated.
Hello all, thank you for your comments. As Debbie informs, I’m working on putting some books out, hopefully before I rack up too many more years!
Ralph, who’s Lahu daughter did you marry? Was it someone I knew from years ago? And where is your village located?
Chaokhao, that would’ve been Carolyn (daughter #4) you met at UCSC.
Geraldine, nice to hear from you. I do remember you so well in Chiang Mai. Where are you now? Yes, I’m still in San Luis Obispo. You can reach me through Debbie’s email: [email protected]
That’s ridiculous. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi has already pulled thousands of times her weight in the struggle for democracy in Burma. How about the rest of the 42,000,000 Burmese and 14,000,000 other souls in Burma, some of whom are blaming Aung San Suu Kyi for their plight. I realize the General have all the guns… but guns are worthless without trigger fingers for them. Those seem not to be lacking in Burma.
Or in Thailand.
If the international community wants to do something truly useful, it should demand not only Mrs Suu Kyi’s release, but also that of the more than 2,000 other political prisoners, including more than 200 monks and nuns, still behind bars. Anything short of that will be meaningless in terms of moving Burma as a whole toward genuine freedom.
That goes for Thailand just as well. That point is not mentioned in the Boondock Post, however. it’s
“No, no… look over there in Burma… at unspeakable military dictatorship.”
But wait, who’s that at the table with the Burmese Generals… why its Abhisit and Kasit… what are they saying..?
Kasit:
“I am going back to Bangkok, and one of the first things I will be doing is to launch a more comprehensive programme for the Myanmar people in the camps, the displaced persons, the intellectuals that run around the streets of Bangkok and Chiang Mai province, to prepare them to return to Myanmar after the elections.”
The convergence of the Thai-Burmese sham democracies is well under way… and picking up speed.
I thought it was a pretty good report. The correspondent clearly balanced the economic pluses with discussion of the ecological problems it may cause: all of which is still being worked out. What more could the reporter say? She’s not there to solve the issues, just to report on what they are.
Although, FWIW I think money will win out and there will be more dams. Ecological issues can too easily be dismissed by developers and policy makers pointing to the Chinese dams further up the river.
I am not law expert but I want to point out an article in Thailand 2007 constitution (I think its no.14) that guarantee the freedom of speech and expression for every Thailand citizen or people in the kingdom. Now that we are talking about article 112 of the criminal law, its pretty obvious that the article is against the constitution so which one is the higher law?
Anyway, I want to leave quotes by Edmund Burke
Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
People crushed by law, have no hopes but from power. If laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to laws; and those who have much to hope and nothing to lose, will always be dangerous.
Jonny: I’m sorry I didn’t address you directly before, but I was not sure you would come back to this forum. I think the problem that many of us have with your position is that we don’t believe you can ignore the question of whether the law is unjust, as you explicitly state you are doing. Protesting Chiranuch’s arrest is a manner of protesting the law. I don’t quite see why you have any problem with that.
Re Section 230, your pointing out the contrast between civil and criminal law underlines the more philosophical point at issue: what is covered by civil law in the US is criminalized in Thailand.
One point you really have to be called out on is when you say: “As Abhisit explained to the US media last week, “I’m not sure you’d allow an Al-Qaeda TV station or newspaper here….”…That’s the largely accurate comparison.” In the context of a discussion about Prachatai, that’s an outrageously inaccurate comparison, and demeans your argument.
And while I don’t see it being very productive to get into a long debate about the nature of law, I think it is dead wrong to state “the law….is. the. law,” because what is largely at issue is the application of law, which is subjective and ever-shifting. Not a few people might wonder whether constitutional guarantees of free speech – the law – override the provisions of the computer crime act – also the law. Why apply the latter and not the former?
Deputy Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh reportedly ordered Gen Panlop Pinmanee, Deputy Director of the Internal Security Operations Command and the most senior person present during the standoff, to negotiate with the assailants and talk them into surrendering, no matter how long it took. However, the army used disproportionate force even after the assailants had stopped shooting. On 29 April 2004, Deputy Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh reportedly ordered General Panlop Pinmanee to leave immediately.
I found it amusing when he said that “Laos has few natural resources to bring it out of poverty.” He’s not heard of Sepon then?
Laos has plenty of natural resources. The problem is that their exploitation is always going to have negative social and environmental impacts. Gold mining? Great when the gold price is US$ 1,300 + (Sepon was originally predicated, when run by Oxiana, on a global gold price of around US$ 300), and depending of course on the Lao Government’s revenue sharing agreement. But mining is not environmentally friendly. What to do with millions of tons of tailings? What to do with issues such as prostitution around mining camps? But on the other hand you provide employment for a lot of locals, and local infrastructure improves (think electrification, mobile phone services and roads). Oxiana, too, was listed and hence publicly accountable to its shareholders. I don’t think the new Chinese owners have to worry about shareholder scrutiny.
Forest resources? Laos still has large areas of pristine forest, ironically in part thanks to UXO contamination. Lots of valuable hardwood in those forests – so valuable, in fact, that it used to be economically viable to extract single trees by helicopter. I say ‘used to be’ simply because I’m not sure whether the trees in question may not now have all been logged (species like ‘mai long leng’, which is popular for coffins in Taiwan apparently). But does anyone really think it’s a good idea for Laos to continue felling its forests?
I am no fan of big hydro, but the facts are that Laos presently has no other viable alternative method to earn badly needed foreign currency, and hence reduce its aid dependency. It is a land-locked country so cost of exporting anything manufactured is always going to cost a premium. It has a tiny population that is not geographically or ethnically cohesive, living in a country that is largely mountainous, and where much of the potential agricultural land bank is still littered with unexploded ordnance from the Vietnam War.
Eco-Tourism? Nice idea, but will never reach a significant scale until the country’s physical infrastructure can support it. It certainly can bring benefits to local communities, but won’t ever do more than that until Laos has better rural transport infrastructure. Which of course will erode some of its present charm.
Consider this: in the mid 1990’s, one of the Top 10 foreign currency earners for Laos was overflight fees. One of the primary air routes to Hong Kong passes through Lao airspace, and every time an aircraft uses that route, Laos gets some money. In the mid 1990’s it was around US$ 10 million a year – and that was a Top 10 earner. Things have naturally changed since then, and tourism has become a major earner. But the point is that in the Lao context, ‘major earner’ doesn’t have to be very much.
Corruption and simple inefficiency means that much of the revenue earned from power exports, mining royalties or whatever will not trickle down to the poor. But some will. And it’s money that’s been earned by Laos, rather than doled out by international donors.
Ian Baird has lived in Laos long enough to know all of this, and his work with local communities is to be commended. But now that he’s pointed out some of the problems associated with NT2 and hydro development in general in Laos, perhaps he can offer some thoughts as to what alternatives exist?
Whoops. Pales in the above, although there’s pales of other stuff. And, I forgot to thank superanonymous for a link that is indeed relevant to the situation of internet publishing.
Looks like we’re back to law. Try this for a discussion of relevance: R. E. Allen, “Law and Justice in Plato’s Crito,” The Journal of Philosophy
Vol. 69, 1972, just for a starter. Then the loud shouting above pales into insignificance. At least that would be my view.
WLH # 32 :
You should change your initials to VLH – Verbose Long Harangue.
Any chance you could say ALL that in just a couple of sentences?
I’ve always thought – if you can n’t sumarise into a few short sentences, it’s probably not worth saying !!
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Critics of Aung San Suu Kyi say…
Unfortunately ASSK believed in not splitting the army in 1988 and refused to work with U Nu because these actions would lead to civil war. Unless you were in a state of denial, civil war had been raging in ethnic homelands for four decades already and in the Burmese heartlands too till 1967. The popular uprising could have established a parallel government that dissident army factions could rally to and the international community could openly support and assist in a very concrete way. Cory Aquino achieved what she did with the help of General Ramos and Defense Minister Enrile breaking away from Marcos.
Her Achilles’ heel remains her total commitment to non-violence. It is also the crucial difference from her father. As far as the generals are concerned, it’s a no holds barred contest while she fights with both arms tied behind her back. She may have expected to win like the velvet and colour revolutions in Europe, but she should have known the Burmese situation better. Our generals are Burmese.
Critics of Aung San Suu Kyi say…
That’s an unfair comparison.
Her father was dealing with a very different set of circumstances – eg. he could go for military training in Japan, she can not.
Prachatai manager arrested
I’d like to address a few points:
First, let me say that nothing is more pathetic than a reader who cries out against moderation when (s)he tries to post a comment on a website, as though a website administrator is under some obligation to publish every word and every thought of every reader who taps on his keyboard, without regard to any other considerations.
For many years I published my own blog. It is gone now, but for a number of years it was moderately popular with a certain group of readers and I am unequivocal in my conviction that there is no quicker or surer way to destroy a website than for the administrator to abandon responsibility for controlling the discussion in the comments section. The administrator has an obligation to herself, as well as her readers, to manage the site.
I would have to second the advice given by superanonymous (31) to Jonny above; if you want to have completely unfettered ability to say whatever you want, set up your own blog. I did it, and so can you. It’s easy and it’s free and no one (aside from, perhaps the Thai government) is going to stop you from saying anything and everything you want to say. But it’s childish to throw a tantrum because the administrators of another website won’t allow you to run freely through their comments printing any stream-of-consciousness string of thoughts that you manage to cobble together.
Secondly, I personally find threats from a commenter towards the administrator to be, not only unbecoming and uncalled-for, but… well… comic and sad as well.
Here, I’m thinking specifically of Jonny’s (#28) ultimatum that the administrators publish his moderated comments or email him to explain their reasons for not doing so. “There is no 3rd option available. Not any that are…advised.”
Ridiculous posturing.
Finally, I feel compelled to step in with my own two-satang’s worth about “the law… is.the.law“.
I take it that Jonny would have everyone accept that there is no such thing as a bad law, or that, if there is, there is no justification for complaining about its application; that once a parliment, or congress, or central committee, or junta has promulgated a law it cannot be challenged — only adhered to.
In Jonny’s world if someone is arrested under a bad law, that arrest can’t be criticized because the law… is.the.law.
Balderdash.
This is the “I only made the trains run on time” defense.
Like Jonny, I don’t seek to equate lese majeste with the wholesale slaughter of millions of people, but since the subject of the Holocaust is on the table, please let me remind Jonny that in Hitler’s Germany there was a similar unquestioning obedience to laws and orders; the law… was.the.law and an order… was.an.order.
History shows that the civilized people of the world do not accept that idea. There are illegal orders, and they should not be followed. There are bad laws, and they should be protested and changed. There are unnecessary comments, and they should be moderated.
From the archives: Gordon Young
Hello all, thank you for your comments. As Debbie informs, I’m working on putting some books out, hopefully before I rack up too many more years!
Ralph, who’s Lahu daughter did you marry? Was it someone I knew from years ago? And where is your village located?
Chaokhao, that would’ve been Carolyn (daughter #4) you met at UCSC.
Geraldine, nice to hear from you. I do remember you so well in Chiang Mai. Where are you now? Yes, I’m still in San Luis Obispo. You can reach me through Debbie’s email: [email protected]
Critics of Aung San Suu Kyi say…
That’s ridiculous. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi has already pulled thousands of times her weight in the struggle for democracy in Burma. How about the rest of the 42,000,000 Burmese and 14,000,000 other souls in Burma, some of whom are blaming Aung San Suu Kyi for their plight. I realize the General have all the guns… but guns are worthless without trigger fingers for them. Those seem not to be lacking in Burma.
Or in Thailand.
That goes for Thailand just as well. That point is not mentioned in the Boondock Post, however. it’s
“No, no… look over there in Burma… at unspeakable military dictatorship.”
But wait, who’s that at the table with the Burmese Generals… why its Abhisit and Kasit… what are they saying..?
Kasit:
“I am going back to Bangkok, and one of the first things I will be doing is to launch a more comprehensive programme for the Myanmar people in the camps, the displaced persons, the intellectuals that run around the streets of Bangkok and Chiang Mai province, to prepare them to return to Myanmar after the elections.”
The convergence of the Thai-Burmese sham democracies is well under way… and picking up speed.
Red art: Democracy Monument April 12 2010
Chris Beale (#11 ‘Another Side of Thai Politics’ thread) exudes relief Pattani-style bomb attacks had arrived at Bangkok. Me thinks the Reds have not yet mastered the delicate art of bomb-making (http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/200015/police-explosion-caused-during-assembling-of-bomb), to my relief, not Chris Beale’s, this time.
“The Amazon of Asia” – Laos and the Mekong on ABC TV
I thought it was a pretty good report. The correspondent clearly balanced the economic pluses with discussion of the ecological problems it may cause: all of which is still being worked out. What more could the reporter say? She’s not there to solve the issues, just to report on what they are.
Although, FWIW I think money will win out and there will be more dams. Ecological issues can too easily be dismissed by developers and policy makers pointing to the Chinese dams further up the river.
Prachatai manager arrested
Jonny – 36
the law….is. the. law
I am not law expert but I want to point out an article in Thailand 2007 constitution (I think its no.14) that guarantee the freedom of speech and expression for every Thailand citizen or people in the kingdom. Now that we are talking about article 112 of the criminal law, its pretty obvious that the article is against the constitution so which one is the higher law?
Anyway, I want to leave quotes by Edmund Burke
Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
People crushed by law, have no hopes but from power. If laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to laws; and those who have much to hope and nothing to lose, will always be dangerous.
Thailand’s hungry military – an update
Michael: I’m guessing the contracted out security is a nice little money spinner for the general who owns the security company.
Prachatai manager arrested
Jonny: I’m sorry I didn’t address you directly before, but I was not sure you would come back to this forum. I think the problem that many of us have with your position is that we don’t believe you can ignore the question of whether the law is unjust, as you explicitly state you are doing. Protesting Chiranuch’s arrest is a manner of protesting the law. I don’t quite see why you have any problem with that.
Re Section 230, your pointing out the contrast between civil and criminal law underlines the more philosophical point at issue: what is covered by civil law in the US is criminalized in Thailand.
One point you really have to be called out on is when you say: “As Abhisit explained to the US media last week, “I’m not sure you’d allow an Al-Qaeda TV station or newspaper here….”…That’s the largely accurate comparison.” In the context of a discussion about Prachatai, that’s an outrageously inaccurate comparison, and demeans your argument.
And while I don’t see it being very productive to get into a long debate about the nature of law, I think it is dead wrong to state “the law….is. the. law,” because what is largely at issue is the application of law, which is subjective and ever-shifting. Not a few people might wonder whether constitutional guarantees of free speech – the law – override the provisions of the computer crime act – also the law. Why apply the latter and not the former?
Sanitising Thai political history
LesAbbey – 55
Well, if you recalled what actually happen during the fateful day, Chavalit make an explicit order to resolve the siege peacefully.
http://www.countercurrents.org/hr-achr060504.htm
Deputy Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh reportedly ordered Gen Panlop Pinmanee, Deputy Director of the Internal Security Operations Command and the most senior person present during the standoff, to negotiate with the assailants and talk them into surrendering, no matter how long it took. However, the army used disproportionate force even after the assailants had stopped shooting. On 29 April 2004, Deputy Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh reportedly ordered General Panlop Pinmanee to leave immediately.
Prachatai manager arrested
Chris #37:
I’ll happily admit to verbosity if you’ll admit that your insistence that the king had already passed was premature.
Unless, of course, you think the cover-up includes a look-alike in a tuxedo attending a concert.
Can Malaysia trust Najib?
Hi Michael,
I think its best if someone who has actually seen the musical to do the post. I would not be able to comment without actually seeing it.
Here are some news reviews of the musical. (Read here and here)
“The Amazon of Asia” – Laos and the Mekong on ABC TV
Laos has plenty of natural resources. The problem is that their exploitation is always going to have negative social and environmental impacts. Gold mining? Great when the gold price is US$ 1,300 + (Sepon was originally predicated, when run by Oxiana, on a global gold price of around US$ 300), and depending of course on the Lao Government’s revenue sharing agreement. But mining is not environmentally friendly. What to do with millions of tons of tailings? What to do with issues such as prostitution around mining camps? But on the other hand you provide employment for a lot of locals, and local infrastructure improves (think electrification, mobile phone services and roads). Oxiana, too, was listed and hence publicly accountable to its shareholders. I don’t think the new Chinese owners have to worry about shareholder scrutiny.
Forest resources? Laos still has large areas of pristine forest, ironically in part thanks to UXO contamination. Lots of valuable hardwood in those forests – so valuable, in fact, that it used to be economically viable to extract single trees by helicopter. I say ‘used to be’ simply because I’m not sure whether the trees in question may not now have all been logged (species like ‘mai long leng’, which is popular for coffins in Taiwan apparently). But does anyone really think it’s a good idea for Laos to continue felling its forests?
I am no fan of big hydro, but the facts are that Laos presently has no other viable alternative method to earn badly needed foreign currency, and hence reduce its aid dependency. It is a land-locked country so cost of exporting anything manufactured is always going to cost a premium. It has a tiny population that is not geographically or ethnically cohesive, living in a country that is largely mountainous, and where much of the potential agricultural land bank is still littered with unexploded ordnance from the Vietnam War.
Eco-Tourism? Nice idea, but will never reach a significant scale until the country’s physical infrastructure can support it. It certainly can bring benefits to local communities, but won’t ever do more than that until Laos has better rural transport infrastructure. Which of course will erode some of its present charm.
Consider this: in the mid 1990’s, one of the Top 10 foreign currency earners for Laos was overflight fees. One of the primary air routes to Hong Kong passes through Lao airspace, and every time an aircraft uses that route, Laos gets some money. In the mid 1990’s it was around US$ 10 million a year – and that was a Top 10 earner. Things have naturally changed since then, and tourism has become a major earner. But the point is that in the Lao context, ‘major earner’ doesn’t have to be very much.
Corruption and simple inefficiency means that much of the revenue earned from power exports, mining royalties or whatever will not trickle down to the poor. But some will. And it’s money that’s been earned by Laos, rather than doled out by international donors.
Ian Baird has lived in Laos long enough to know all of this, and his work with local communities is to be commended. But now that he’s pointed out some of the problems associated with NT2 and hydro development in general in Laos, perhaps he can offer some thoughts as to what alternatives exist?
Sanitising Thai political history
Tarrin – 53
…and yes Panlop is the one who order the crackdown and for some reason Thaksin took the blame.
Tarrin, isn’t it strange then that they should appear to be so close now? I wonder who did give the order.
Prachatai manager arrested
Whoops. Pales in the above, although there’s pales of other stuff. And, I forgot to thank superanonymous for a link that is indeed relevant to the situation of internet publishing.
Prachatai manager arrested
Looks like we’re back to law. Try this for a discussion of relevance: R. E. Allen, “Law and Justice in Plato’s Crito,” The Journal of Philosophy
Vol. 69, 1972, just for a starter. Then the loud shouting above pales into insignificance. At least that would be my view.
Another side of Thai political life
Pattani-style war comes to Bangkok :
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/10/06/politics/Terror-In-Suburbs-30139473.html
Interview with Professor David Chandler
A wonderful interview – one of NM’s best. Congratulations to both Nicholas and Chandler. Fascinating.
Prachatai manager arrested
WLH # 32 :
You should change your initials to VLH – Verbose Long Harangue.
Any chance you could say ALL that in just a couple of sentences?
I’ve always thought – if you can n’t sumarise into a few short sentences, it’s probably not worth saying !!