Hardly surpising the Abhisit government has taken this tack – they need Vietnam’s co-operation vis a vis Hun Sen, and Thaksin who up till now must have been flying in and out of Cambodia through Vietnamese air-space.
Khun Pongphisoot you were doing so well and keeping it very academic right up to that last sentence;-)
Another little curiosity of mine when writing on this subject is how men at that time managed to maintain their privacy when they had a woody!
I do wonder though, does this practice really stop sodomy? I do not have the experience of either inserts or sodomy to answer myself. Maybe someone else can answer.
Since I have been quite interested in the issue of “unique” “Thainess” in the context of “the Thai [Chinese?] encounter with the farang [Japanese?]” under the condition of world society, or globalization, a situation that most certainly is “in no way peculiar to Siam/Thailand,” I might be forgiven for commenting by way of a quote from a text that appeared six years ago.
Thai Society?
One may think of Thailand, its society or culture, as consisting of all social actions and action-related expectations (society) as well as themes of thought and conversation (culture) that occur on the territory of Thailand. Consequently, if one wants to determine the “Thainess” of Thailand one could simply select some examples and ask what the specific Thai content of those actions and thoughts is. Lets have a look at one consumer product that has fundamentally reshaped the way of life of the Thais: the automobile. What in the technology of and surrounding a car is specifically Thai, such as the underlying way of thought, basic and applied research, the final design, the management and the production process, distribution, repair, financing? Moreover, which of the multiplicity of actions occurring in connection with a car–e.g., opening the door, sitting, driving, overtaking, stopping at a traffic light as part of a complex traffic regulation system, building underground and elevated mass transit systems, all business processes using motorized vehicles in one way or another–is specifically Thai?
Similar questions could be asked with regard to going to see the doctor or dentist, undergoing an operation in a hospital, depositing or withdrawing money at a bank or ATM, spending one’s money at a shopping mall, sending one’s children to kindergarten or school, studying at a university, electronic personal organizers, sending email to Germany or the use of computers in general, vacuum cleaners, air-conditioning, the construction of high-rise buildings, or electing politicians to be representatives in parliament. More generally, we have been facing the “rational reconstruction of society” (Coleman 1993), i.e., the enormous roles “purposively constructed organization[s]” have come to play in contemporary everyday life. Hirst (1996) captured this situation with the expression “organizational society.” At the individual level, then, what one is (identity), and how one acts in “organized roles [are] sharply decoupled” in modern society (Frank and Meyer 2002:86, fn. 1). Modern corporate actors, Coleman (1993:14) contends, “have positions rather than persons as elements of their structures–persons merely occupy positions.” Does it matter much whether we find such organizations in Germany or in Thailand?
When the Bangkok Post (25 April 1997) reported on the opening of a Toyota factory, they sub-titled their article, “Introducing a new era in Thai automobile manufacturing.” One may then ask what the Thai element is in this Toyota high-tech automobile factory that completely consists of technology transplanted from Japan, basically only using Thai soil, manpower, permissions, infrastructure, etc.? A similar question arose when two Thai state enterprises (the Telephone Organization of Thailand and the Communications Authority of Thailand) called their completely imported mobile phone network “Thai Mobile,” advertised it as “an authentic Thai product…[that] every Thai can call his very own,” and added the slogan “Pride of Thais … for Thais.” They were “confident that the Thai community will be able to play a part in helping develop the 1900 MHz network into a truly Thai mobile telephone network” (BP, special publication, n. d. [2003]. Certainly, electricity cannot be said to be a Thai invention. Nevertheless, its introduction in Thailand has changed the ways of “Thai society” fundamentally and probably irreversibly. Changes have occurred, no doubt, based on pre-existing Thai ways (although one will have to keep in mind processes such as the above-mentioned Indianization, for example). But how far has this change proceeded from its old “Thai” basis? Furthermore, what do the aggregated effects of the combined interactions of all those externally induced changes mean for the attempt of determining “Thainess”? In short, it may in practice be impossible to determine any specific Thai content in most of those actions, and probably in the thoughts and conversations we have over the day and that are supposed to constitute “Thai” society or “Thai” culture.
Regardless of the details, Genov (1997:424) has a point when he speaks of “cultural homogenization” and states, “Basically the same technological problems handled by basically the same technologies cannot but produce similar cultural patterns of complexity reduction and problem managements.” One may be rather skeptical about the actual range of cultural homogenization and allow for a lot more variety. However, far-reaching consequences in the educational system, itself a homogenizing power of sorts, are unavoidable. Why, after all, should Thai pupils learn mathematics or natural sciences, and why should Thai universities train engineers, doctors, or MBAs if not for technological demands alien to “Thai culture”? To be sure, “the capacity of national political leaders to sustain a national culture has become more difficult”, and with it their ability “to foster and sustain a national identity” (Held 1996:351, 350). In this context, what about the enormous effect of modern time structures brought about by monetization and the mass media (Luhmann 1996:44)?
Under all these circumstances, the attempt to uphold and to promote a unique or singular societal and cultural “Thainess” can only end up in ideology.
Source: M. H. Nelson. 2004. “World Society in Thailand: Globalization Confronts Thainess.” In Thai Politics: Local and Global Perspectives. KPI Yearbook No. 2 (2002/03), ed. by M. H. Nelson, pp. 159-282. Bangkok: King Prajadhipok Institute.
Fancy looking at Abhisit recently telling the students that he wants to serve another term. Perhaps he can now see how nice and comfortable to be a PM if the military (plus the invisible hand) is backing him .
The truth is that he is not supported by the majority of Thai people, who in theory must elect him through an election in which his party wins more than 50 percent of the seats. He came to power in December 2008 through the military’s intervention and Newin’s treachery.
He must remember he will face 5-year ban in politics if the democrats are dissolved soon — or perhaps he is confident his backers can influence the court’s verdict.
That’s just what I said . . . all these NM blah blah about democracy being good for Thailand are nothing more than . . . and all comes down to NM blah blah that Thaksin was good for Thailand (says who?)
Nothing about Ralph Kramden nor Tarrin’s posters (#50 and #51) are new . . . save to repeat that Thaksin’s abuses of authority during his corrupt reign (which included a megalomaniac extra-judicial bloody murderous run btw that was certainly unconstitutional and undemocratic) were “grey” areas . . hah! Our Thai constitution disagrees and so too our independent judiciary and a recent Supreme Court decision . . . with recent convictions of Thaksin & company.
To Tarrin – what does it matter if ‘the Thaksin corruption case is not the “in your face” type of corruption’? You yourself admit to the reality of the Thaksin corruption. And every corruption committed by people in authority, however subtle or blatant, are offensive in ‘your or my faces’. When tax evasion or tax finagling are seen to be committed by the people right at the very top, that certainly destroys any remaining people’s faith in their government and/or leaders. In this vein, the intensity of the Thai people’s anger directed at Thaksin/family for their blatant tax finagling, and, the intensity by which Thaksin was hounded out of office and criminally prosecuted in the aftermath was fitting, and, certainly justice served.
Tarrin: Do you really believe the preposterousness of your last sentence: “if you want to go technical its not him (Thaksin) that did the tax evasion, its his children.”? Reflect on the inanity of your faith in the tax finagling, extrajudicially murderous, not-even-subtly corrupt Thaksin . . . Why Tarrin, you would be defending Mugabe himself I believe if you were a ‘Red’ Zimbabweian, right?
Conclusion: The ouster of Thaksin was a certain godsend . . . and had saved Thailand from falling into a hell hole . . . like Greece, amen.
I was thinking about not to write any response to you but you post is getting more and more ridiculous. First I suspect that you actually don’t know much about Thailand politic and it history and that your knowledge of Thailand is limited to just during Thaksin era (2001 untill 2006) and you have absolutely no clue of what happened before or after that. You talk as if corruption is exclusive to Thaksin, pardon me, but the leaking observatory balloon, GT200, the rotten canned fish, rotten milk, Sor Por Gor 4-01, sufficient village project, and other have proven that other governments can be as corrupt if not more than Thaksin. At least Thaksin corruption case is not the “in your face” type of corruption, its rather grey and controversial. I can certain defense Thaksin about the tax evasion case since he actually did everything within the border that the law allows him, moreover, if you want to go technical its not him that do the tax evasion, its his children. However, if you talk about GT200 case then there’s no way the defense this government, its in your face, the corruption is there.
I shared your view here, unlike you I’ve never spent a year in Thai higher education system but I did attempt to get a feel of it by dressing as one and join a class. To my surprise, once the class start the students were still chatting, playing with their phone (there were no BB then so they were SMSing instead) and ignore the teacher totally, something that would considered as outrageous in the US. However, I never try to attend the public one since I couldn’t find the uniform, which bring me to another point about Thailand’s higher ed, why do they need to have uniform?
MattB is another of the variety of commenter at NM who seem to claim huge insight, not least into the beliefs and mindset of others, but who is essentially and simply saying Thaksin was a bad guy. Well ho hum. We’ve heard that since before 2001, and heard it endlessly here at NM. So what is the point of ad hominem attacks?
Even though “clothing doesn’t make the man,” every profession has attire guidelines and teaching is no exception. I think the student doesn’t respect the instructor because she ignores teaching dress code. Like it or not, our outer appearance is the first indicator of inner characteristics: mature, professional, capable and competent. When you are a school teacher, you simply can’t ignore dress with classroom appropriate. Otherwise, it’s hard for students to respect you especially in the Thai or Asian cultural context.
Yessir. Also kidding about Paris and Manila, unless of course further publicity is the driver.
Perhaps these are all steps towards an eventual launch in Orange County. This might explain the report’s ommission of SRV govt failure to act internationally for the rights of e.g. Agent Orange survivors.
Presumably the student would have been taking the video as a study tool; a way to review the lecture after the class had finished. This would have been seen in a positive light by the teacher involved, I imagine.
This looks a fascinating book, which I look forward to reading.
Re. Peter Jackson’s comment :
bringing “Thai studies out of its self-imposed isolation”
While what he suggests may help end “self-imposed” isolation among academics, and a few others, sadly it’s difficult to see Thai Studies not remaining isolated in Australia, given the decline in Asian Studies over past decades – especially as our first Asia-literate PM has been demoted to Foreign Minister.
Thanks Robert – I get it : the real price of Lao Beer should be
500 kip less than what anyone unsuspecting pays when they see the now famous Beer Lao label !!
I wanna know what happened to the cell phone of the person who filmed this little escapade. As that is probably how it was filmed in the first place. Double standard, anyone?
“Between them, the generals and Bhumibol have ensured that elected representatives of the Thai people have no real say in running the country.” (#48)
Your opinion, R.N.England, is yours alone which I don’t certainly share.
But many at New Mandala do share your opinion . . . including NM founders Walker & Farrelly. And that opinion I suggest was a result of disgraceful ouster of one Thaksin Shinawatra, a billionaire with exceptional talents to corrrupt, while he espouse his nonsense that corrupting his fellow Thais is undiluted democracy in action . . . ha ha ha.
I suggest to you all and my Thai friends as well: Beware of Thaksin-like politicians who believe they have the license to corrupt and the impunity to be exempt from Thai taxes.
To all you NM readers, it is a fact that democracy could fail. Not only in countries like The Philippines, Zimbabwe or Venezuela. But also in a country like Greece (where modern civilization and democracy itself is popularly believed to have been invented) . . . yes Greece!
Tax evasion and rampant corruption (qualities of the Thaksin version of democracy that NM readers thought as no more than misdemeanors and forgivable because the Red voters says so) had completely undone Greece to the point of economic and moral bankruptcy.
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Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
“Abhisit and Thailand’s Bad Men” ???
Interestingly, it is Newin Chidchob now making more of an effort at reconciliation than Abhisit :
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/196227/bjt-proposes-amnesty-plan
FCCT under pressure to cancel press conference
Hardly surpising the Abhisit government has taken this tack – they need Vietnam’s co-operation vis a vis Hun Sen, and Thaksin who up till now must have been flying in and out of Cambodia through Vietnamese air-space.
Teaching tips – how to keep students engaged
Sweet revenge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js8rU2mKyKc
Whatever happen to respect for teachers in S.E. Asia? Maybe they are
finally going to have to earn it.
Linga bell, linga bell, jingle all the way
Khun Pongphisoot you were doing so well and keeping it very academic right up to that last sentence;-)
Another little curiosity of mine when writing on this subject is how men at that time managed to maintain their privacy when they had a woody!
I do wonder though, does this practice really stop sodomy? I do not have the experience of either inserts or sodomy to answer myself. Maybe someone else can answer.
Burma in Limbo, Part 2
Lee Kuan Yew,an extremly self-assured man,did not call the Burmese people stupid,as a seasoned politician,he would never commit such grave mistake.
What he did was to call the SLORC /SPDC Generals STUPID.pl see link below
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article-southeastasia.asp?parentid=79541
Review of Ambiguous Allure of the West
Since I have been quite interested in the issue of “unique” “Thainess” in the context of “the Thai [Chinese?] encounter with the farang [Japanese?]” under the condition of world society, or globalization, a situation that most certainly is “in no way peculiar to Siam/Thailand,” I might be forgiven for commenting by way of a quote from a text that appeared six years ago.
Thai Society?
One may think of Thailand, its society or culture, as consisting of all social actions and action-related expectations (society) as well as themes of thought and conversation (culture) that occur on the territory of Thailand. Consequently, if one wants to determine the “Thainess” of Thailand one could simply select some examples and ask what the specific Thai content of those actions and thoughts is. Lets have a look at one consumer product that has fundamentally reshaped the way of life of the Thais: the automobile. What in the technology of and surrounding a car is specifically Thai, such as the underlying way of thought, basic and applied research, the final design, the management and the production process, distribution, repair, financing? Moreover, which of the multiplicity of actions occurring in connection with a car–e.g., opening the door, sitting, driving, overtaking, stopping at a traffic light as part of a complex traffic regulation system, building underground and elevated mass transit systems, all business processes using motorized vehicles in one way or another–is specifically Thai?
Similar questions could be asked with regard to going to see the doctor or dentist, undergoing an operation in a hospital, depositing or withdrawing money at a bank or ATM, spending one’s money at a shopping mall, sending one’s children to kindergarten or school, studying at a university, electronic personal organizers, sending email to Germany or the use of computers in general, vacuum cleaners, air-conditioning, the construction of high-rise buildings, or electing politicians to be representatives in parliament. More generally, we have been facing the “rational reconstruction of society” (Coleman 1993), i.e., the enormous roles “purposively constructed organization[s]” have come to play in contemporary everyday life. Hirst (1996) captured this situation with the expression “organizational society.” At the individual level, then, what one is (identity), and how one acts in “organized roles [are] sharply decoupled” in modern society (Frank and Meyer 2002:86, fn. 1). Modern corporate actors, Coleman (1993:14) contends, “have positions rather than persons as elements of their structures–persons merely occupy positions.” Does it matter much whether we find such organizations in Germany or in Thailand?
When the Bangkok Post (25 April 1997) reported on the opening of a Toyota factory, they sub-titled their article, “Introducing a new era in Thai automobile manufacturing.” One may then ask what the Thai element is in this Toyota high-tech automobile factory that completely consists of technology transplanted from Japan, basically only using Thai soil, manpower, permissions, infrastructure, etc.? A similar question arose when two Thai state enterprises (the Telephone Organization of Thailand and the Communications Authority of Thailand) called their completely imported mobile phone network “Thai Mobile,” advertised it as “an authentic Thai product…[that] every Thai can call his very own,” and added the slogan “Pride of Thais … for Thais.” They were “confident that the Thai community will be able to play a part in helping develop the 1900 MHz network into a truly Thai mobile telephone network” (BP, special publication, n. d. [2003]. Certainly, electricity cannot be said to be a Thai invention. Nevertheless, its introduction in Thailand has changed the ways of “Thai society” fundamentally and probably irreversibly. Changes have occurred, no doubt, based on pre-existing Thai ways (although one will have to keep in mind processes such as the above-mentioned Indianization, for example). But how far has this change proceeded from its old “Thai” basis? Furthermore, what do the aggregated effects of the combined interactions of all those externally induced changes mean for the attempt of determining “Thainess”? In short, it may in practice be impossible to determine any specific Thai content in most of those actions, and probably in the thoughts and conversations we have over the day and that are supposed to constitute “Thai” society or “Thai” culture.
Regardless of the details, Genov (1997:424) has a point when he speaks of “cultural homogenization” and states, “Basically the same technological problems handled by basically the same technologies cannot but produce similar cultural patterns of complexity reduction and problem managements.” One may be rather skeptical about the actual range of cultural homogenization and allow for a lot more variety. However, far-reaching consequences in the educational system, itself a homogenizing power of sorts, are unavoidable. Why, after all, should Thai pupils learn mathematics or natural sciences, and why should Thai universities train engineers, doctors, or MBAs if not for technological demands alien to “Thai culture”? To be sure, “the capacity of national political leaders to sustain a national culture has become more difficult”, and with it their ability “to foster and sustain a national identity” (Held 1996:351, 350). In this context, what about the enormous effect of modern time structures brought about by monetization and the mass media (Luhmann 1996:44)?
Under all these circumstances, the attempt to uphold and to promote a unique or singular societal and cultural “Thainess” can only end up in ideology.
Source: M. H. Nelson. 2004. “World Society in Thailand: Globalization Confronts Thainess.” In Thai Politics: Local and Global Perspectives. KPI Yearbook No. 2 (2002/03), ed. by M. H. Nelson, pp. 159-282. Bangkok: King Prajadhipok Institute.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
Fancy looking at Abhisit recently telling the students that he wants to serve another term. Perhaps he can now see how nice and comfortable to be a PM if the military (plus the invisible hand) is backing him .
The truth is that he is not supported by the majority of Thai people, who in theory must elect him through an election in which his party wins more than 50 percent of the seats. He came to power in December 2008 through the military’s intervention and Newin’s treachery.
He must remember he will face 5-year ban in politics if the democrats are dissolved soon — or perhaps he is confident his backers can influence the court’s verdict.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
That’s just what I said . . . all these NM blah blah about democracy being good for Thailand are nothing more than . . . and all comes down to NM blah blah that Thaksin was good for Thailand (says who?)
Nothing about Ralph Kramden nor Tarrin’s posters (#50 and #51) are new . . . save to repeat that Thaksin’s abuses of authority during his corrupt reign (which included a megalomaniac extra-judicial bloody murderous run btw that was certainly unconstitutional and undemocratic) were “grey” areas . . hah! Our Thai constitution disagrees and so too our independent judiciary and a recent Supreme Court decision . . . with recent convictions of Thaksin & company.
To Tarrin – what does it matter if ‘the Thaksin corruption case is not the “in your face” type of corruption’? You yourself admit to the reality of the Thaksin corruption. And every corruption committed by people in authority, however subtle or blatant, are offensive in ‘your or my faces’. When tax evasion or tax finagling are seen to be committed by the people right at the very top, that certainly destroys any remaining people’s faith in their government and/or leaders. In this vein, the intensity of the Thai people’s anger directed at Thaksin/family for their blatant tax finagling, and, the intensity by which Thaksin was hounded out of office and criminally prosecuted in the aftermath was fitting, and, certainly justice served.
Tarrin: Do you really believe the preposterousness of your last sentence: “if you want to go technical its not him (Thaksin) that did the tax evasion, its his children.”? Reflect on the inanity of your faith in the tax finagling, extrajudicially murderous, not-even-subtly corrupt Thaksin . . . Why Tarrin, you would be defending Mugabe himself I believe if you were a ‘Red’ Zimbabweian, right?
Conclusion: The ouster of Thaksin was a certain godsend . . . and had saved Thailand from falling into a hell hole . . . like Greece, amen.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
MattB – 49
I was thinking about not to write any response to you but you post is getting more and more ridiculous. First I suspect that you actually don’t know much about Thailand politic and it history and that your knowledge of Thailand is limited to just during Thaksin era (2001 untill 2006) and you have absolutely no clue of what happened before or after that. You talk as if corruption is exclusive to Thaksin, pardon me, but the leaking observatory balloon, GT200, the rotten canned fish, rotten milk, Sor Por Gor 4-01, sufficient village project, and other have proven that other governments can be as corrupt if not more than Thaksin. At least Thaksin corruption case is not the “in your face” type of corruption, its rather grey and controversial. I can certain defense Thaksin about the tax evasion case since he actually did everything within the border that the law allows him, moreover, if you want to go technical its not him that do the tax evasion, its his children. However, if you talk about GT200 case then there’s no way the defense this government, its in your face, the corruption is there.
Teaching tips – how to keep students engaged
R.Duke – 18
I shared your view here, unlike you I’ve never spent a year in Thai higher education system but I did attempt to get a feel of it by dressing as one and join a class. To my surprise, once the class start the students were still chatting, playing with their phone (there were no BB then so they were SMSing instead) and ignore the teacher totally, something that would considered as outrageous in the US. However, I never try to attend the public one since I couldn’t find the uniform, which bring me to another point about Thailand’s higher ed, why do they need to have uniform?
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
MattB is another of the variety of commenter at NM who seem to claim huge insight, not least into the beliefs and mindset of others, but who is essentially and simply saying Thaksin was a bad guy. Well ho hum. We’ve heard that since before 2001, and heard it endlessly here at NM. So what is the point of ad hominem attacks?
Thaksin might have been good at it, but he can hardly be accused of inventing corruption and tax evasion in Thailand. I recommend a look at: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/09/13/business/Tax-restructure-needed-to-boost-govt-revenue-30137848.html
Teaching tips – how to keep students engaged
Even though “clothing doesn’t make the man,” every profession has attire guidelines and teaching is no exception. I think the student doesn’t respect the instructor because she ignores teaching dress code. Like it or not, our outer appearance is the first indicator of inner characteristics: mature, professional, capable and competent. When you are a school teacher, you simply can’t ignore dress with classroom appropriate. Otherwise, it’s hard for students to respect you especially in the Thai or Asian cultural context.
FCCT under pressure to cancel press conference
Yessir. Also kidding about Paris and Manila, unless of course further publicity is the driver.
Perhaps these are all steps towards an eventual launch in Orange County. This might explain the report’s ommission of SRV govt failure to act internationally for the rights of e.g. Agent Orange survivors.
Teaching tips – how to keep students engaged
Anon,
Presumably the student would have been taking the video as a study tool; a way to review the lecture after the class had finished. This would have been seen in a positive light by the teacher involved, I imagine.
FCCT under pressure to cancel press conference
Des Matthews
Phnom Penh? You must be kidding.
FCCT under pressure to cancel press conference
I am puzzled about the choice of Bangkok for the launch.
Naive? a highly selective grasp of the human rights situation in the region?
Savvy? an astute anticipation of the government’s reaction, and the subsequent publicity?
I suggest next attempts in Phnom Penh, Paris or Philippines
Review of Ambiguous Allure of the West
This looks a fascinating book, which I look forward to reading.
Re. Peter Jackson’s comment :
bringing “Thai studies out of its self-imposed isolation”
While what he suggests may help end “self-imposed” isolation among academics, and a few others, sadly it’s difficult to see Thai Studies not remaining isolated in Australia, given the decline in Asian Studies over past decades – especially as our first Asia-literate PM has been demoted to Foreign Minister.
National celebrations and historiography in Laos
Thanks Robert – I get it : the real price of Lao Beer should be
500 kip less than what anyone unsuspecting pays when they see the now famous Beer Lao label !!
Teaching tips – how to keep students engaged
I wanna know what happened to the cell phone of the person who filmed this little escapade. As that is probably how it was filmed in the first place. Double standard, anyone?
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
“Between them, the generals and Bhumibol have ensured that elected representatives of the Thai people have no real say in running the country.” (#48)
Your opinion, R.N.England, is yours alone which I don’t certainly share.
But many at New Mandala do share your opinion . . . including NM founders Walker & Farrelly. And that opinion I suggest was a result of disgraceful ouster of one Thaksin Shinawatra, a billionaire with exceptional talents to corrrupt, while he espouse his nonsense that corrupting his fellow Thais is undiluted democracy in action . . . ha ha ha.
I suggest to you all and my Thai friends as well: Beware of Thaksin-like politicians who believe they have the license to corrupt and the impunity to be exempt from Thai taxes.
To all you NM readers, it is a fact that democracy could fail. Not only in countries like The Philippines, Zimbabwe or Venezuela. But also in a country like Greece (where modern civilization and democracy itself is popularly believed to have been invented) . . . yes Greece!
Recommended reading: ‘Beware of Greeks Bearing Bonds’
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010
Tax evasion and rampant corruption (qualities of the Thaksin version of democracy that NM readers thought as no more than misdemeanors and forgivable because the Red voters says so) had completely undone Greece to the point of economic and moral bankruptcy.