LesAbby, whoever they are, has not bothered to read my continuing criticism of Taksin’s human rights abuses while he was in government or my criticism of Seh Daeng before he was shot.
And yet Giles I read this article by you where you do not have a single criticism of Thaksin. Do you say one thing for the English reading market and another for the Thai readers? Are the complications of your take on the Thai political system too hard for the farangs to understand? Or are you just indulging in propaganda?
Giles stands up, now, and lets everyone know where he stands. In Thailand at this time doing so can easily get you arrested, certainly taken in for serious questioning that ends up being a hole in the bank from paying for travel to the police station you have to appear in.
The initial paragraph referenced and written by Giles did not say that helping the poor was the reason Thaksin was overthrown. Read it carefully. Nothing wrong with the grammar, just some mistaken idea of what it really said.
It’s easy to throw stones at others for not taking a stand now and here, but there are many issues in doing so, and being put in a Thai prison can’t be the least of them.
Once again, I decry Thais who want freedom but are not taking these things into court on an organized basis, and not putting together the Thai equivalent of an ACLU. Reform has to be done in the courts, not just of the court system itself, but of vital issues that the military, police and other extreme conservatives hold to their chests with such violent passion.
Giles: A bit unfair to describe the Thai military as failing to stand up to the Japanese as if this was somehow unique. Who did succeed in standing up to the Japanese at the outset of their initial attacks?
Your interpretation of history is wanting. Vietnam a “war of independence”? Wasn’t it a civil war with American, Chinese, and the Soviet Union’s involvement within the context of the Cold War? Not everyone in Vietnam wanted communism.
The Thai military’s interaction with communists and Muslim separatists have not been “civil wars.” These are insurgencies and why would you describe the military as not being successful against these communists? Did Thailand go communist?
Center of power? In my opinion it goes beyond the military and even the monarchy. The center of power in Thailand emanates from Thai culture where the sacred link starts between a child and his/her parents. This sacred link is deeply embedded in Buddhist beliefs. This link is transferred to the king, who is viewed as Father. That, in my opinion, is the sacred link where everything starts and nothing can be understood without knowing this.
Many would argue that the military and the elite prop up the monarchy exploiting it for their own agendas. I agree, but I believe this is a vast simplification not taking into account values deeply embedded in Thai people including reverence and need for this Father figure.
Giles, your suggestion that Thailand simply throw out the monarchy makes perfect sense to me as a Westerner whose country was founded on the destruction of monarchy, but overthrowing monarchy means overthrowing culture and this is not so easily done.
I’m not sure I understand your comment about the mastermind behind the messes and chaos. Are you talking about the deliberate dismantling of democracy and propaganda that states otherwise, or are you are talking about the not-so-invisible hand that is attempting to restore sanity before it’s too late.
I fear the fight for democracy has lost considerable ground in the last four years. I read on Wikipedia yesterday that government assistance to foreign NGOs working for the prevention of human trafficking stopped abrubtly when the PAD took power. Does anyone feel that the ‘red’ movement is organized, or that there is any hope? Does anyone else worry about extortion? Suzie outlined examples of two other Asian countries, but Thailand has its own unique circumstances, ie sex tourism. The blackmailing of individual Western executives or government officials when holidaying in Thailand could cause all sorts of problems for the World. Sometimes I wonder if some of the pro-PAD Farangs aren’t victims of extortion already.
LesAbby, whoever they are, has not bothered to read my continuing criticism of Taksin’s human rights abuses while he was in government or my criticism of Seh Daeng before he was shot. Maybe LesAbby can’t read my articles in Thai. And yes, the coup was carried out by those who could not compete electorally with TRT’s pro-poor policies. Otherwise they could have opposed TRT at the ballot box. Time to do your home work LesAbby.
I don’t know if Thaksin was ousted for “helping the poor” exactly, though many of his policies were aimed at and achieved exactly that – hence his continued support base today. But it certainly wasn’t for the “massacre of Muslims in the south or the killings of alleged drug dealers”; in the first of which the army that ousted him was heavily implicated and the second was part of a policy that was massively popular in Thailand at the time and received the vocal support of HMK. Nor do I think it was for his claimed corruption, though this was the smokescreen. No, Thaksin was ousted purely and simply because he represented an immense threat to the established order.
Tench #17 – I doubt that the extra tuition they do out of school has much to do with it. They behave just as obnoxiously towards their private tutors. One of my friends recently told me that he is expected to do his student’s school homework, with the parents’ backing, while the kid plays with his Play-station, a typical story. These are the sort of parents who pass over a fat envelope when they apply for uni admission. (I was amazed to discover that some of my senior Matthayom students already knew they had been accepted into courses at very prestigious universities well before entrance exams.)
Many Matthayom & Prathom (!!!) teachers I know – I could say most – have anecdotes about intercepting a cellphone that was being passed around with downloaded porn playing on it. School admins don’t do anything about such incidents. They’ve learnt that parents react very badly – towards the school!
I’ve taught at all levels here, & in public & private sector offices. I can say that it is a rare class that doesn’t have its cellphone users. I make a point now of establishing a very firm commitment from students at the beginning of the course, but some don’t keep it. And they are absolutely outraged when they lose marks for this, even though they’ve been warned from the start that this will be the consequence.
I feel really pathetic making such threats to tertiary-level, even post-grad., students. I certainly never had to do such things in Australia.
This raises the whole question of control in Thai institutions, including the issue of uniforms which Tarrin #21 brought up. Quite a few years ago, when I was working at a Rajabhat, every morning I would walk past a lecturer standing at the gate taking the names of students whose hair was ‘unsuitable’, skirts were too short, etc. Awful! I put it down to a systemic cultivation of immaturity & lack of self-discipline that begins at Anuban (pre-school) level. The teachers don’t know how to develop well-balanced & disciplined students – a lack in their training -, and many parents, especially those of the arrogant new middle-class, don’t either, & don’t care. So, in some ways, it’s necessary to employ fascist strategies (uniforms, marking the roll, etc.) to keep up an appearance of order & maintain a fear of the ‘rulers’. Keep ’em stupid & boss them around.
MattB- after all these messes and chaos if you still cannot see the causes and the mastermind behind all these troubles, I think you should go back and start to study kindergarten again. May be you want to be a slave or you want to live under someone feet forever. Stop your day dream and wake up to see reality in front of you, don’t shut your mind!
MattB- you should be able to see through the veil of conspiracy through the social field of the summit by now: the “wounds” (as you have it) are caused by the amaat: not Thaksin- he was simply a victim of the amaat regime. The problem is rooted in 24 June 1932, the Siamese Revolution which was supposed to ensure constitutional power for the people in accordance with the aspirations of King Prajadhipok (Rama VII) . Ever since then the amaat have tried to control the constitution and write clauses to maintain their benefits and power over the aspirations of the people. This enabled the amaat to get back into power after the elite revolution replacing the Absolute Monarchy. In fact whenever the situation gets out of hand and the amaat start to lose control through social order, politics and the economy (e.g. as in a perceived runaway liberal democracy shifting benefits downwards and outwards, as under Thaksin) the amaat bring out their mighty forces and regain dominance through their enmeshed civil and military networks. MOre recently ever since 2005 the amaat regime blamed Thaksin and said that if only he would stop (?) then everything would be fine. However, instead, if we invert this logic, it is because the problem historically comes from the amaat; so if they are stopped, then in fact everything would be solved!
Thailand is right to take careful steps towards embracing ‘western-style’ democracy without ‘adjustments’, with the wounds of the Thaksin regime and the burning of Bangkok still fresh and unhealed.
The chaos of Zimbabwe, the disorientation and rampant corruption of the Philippines, the economic and moral bankruptcy of Greece and many other countries should be lesson enough that democracy could malfunction with horrendous consequences to the unwary.
Giles Ji with his dubious ultra-left leaning politics entices certainly . . . but his view of democracy is not far-off from the Venezuelan Chavez model, or maybe, even Zimbabwean Mugabe. Which is: destroy the old order and reconstruct from the ruins, whatever the outcome, everybody will be equally miserable and poor.
I read it many times before in 2007. My interpretation is his throwaway comment widely reported all over the world basically implied that we Burmese (especially the governing generals) are too dumb to make good use of our abundant natural resources and we collectively wrecked the economy of Burma.
I am one of these stupid Burmese who, after receiving expensive engineering education, fled the country and abandoned the people just to serve another society with that education and experience provided free by the people of Burma.
I don’t think the outsiders see Mr Lee Kuan Yew totally apart from the Singaporean people even though there are many questions about his family’s tight hold on Singapore.
He is one of them and he represents the people of Singapore in our eyes same as the generals represent the Burmese society, whether the people like it or not, in the world’s eyes.
I believe a government is responsible for the people and the people are also responsible for the government they have, aren’t they. Burmese have a succession of stupid governments since English left Burma in 4 January 1948.
By the way have you ever read about Mr LKY’s calling Australians the white trash of Asia?
Thank you for this straight to the point analysis by Ji Ungpakorn. I agree with Ji’s conclusion that the current military fraction, the Thai monarchy and the corrupted politicians are not interested in pursuing genuine modernization and democratization.
As a result, this would lead to Nepal’s model of violence with the potential of a decade long internal conflict claiming more than 13,000 lives. The southern problem has already claimed 4,000 lives. Majority of Thai people are frustrated with the lack of progress in restoring law and order, in meeting people’s aspirations for a greater political voice, broader social and economic inclusion, and better access to resources, jobs and services.
In contrast, Indonesia is successful in showing that “Islam, Democracy, and Governance,” can thrive together. Indonesia’s embrace of democracy has made it possible for Indonesia to transform the country from over three decades of “New Order” authoritarian rule in 1998. Thanks to the Indonesian’s military, Indonesia is now entered an era of bold reform characterized by democratic institution building and decentralization of governance. Reformasi is successful and Indonesia is seen today as a vibrant regional example of democracy working to achieve compromise and political stability in a nation of varied culture, religion, politics, and regional identities.
We have two contrasting cases. Nepal has successfully democratized from below while Indonesia achieves democracy from above. I hope Thailand is wise enough to choose the path Indonesia has taken toward modernity.
MattB #56: You are right. I am “not NOW blaming the CIA… ” I don’t know yet. I was responding to your comment in which you downplayed the role of the CIA in the rise & fall of “rogue leaders.” I was pointing you in the direction of discovering that over the last 50 years or so they have had a major hand in the rise & fall of almost every rogue leader in the world.
If you think the coup was about corruption or extra-judicial killing etc., you haven’t canvassed the alternatives, & apparently haven’t really looked into the history of Thailand, in which almost every PM has been massively corrupt & abused human rights – with very little protest. It was about much more compelling issues, from the point of view of those who engineered it. Corruption was a useful cover story, & provided a useful environment for whipping up support – but it was not the reason.
Yes, leadership is a problem. But in the apparently unlikely event that ethical, articulate & relatively altruistic leaders do emerge, they will still have the problem of dealing with forces inside the country that have enormous power & ability to control, and outside the country that have their own economic agenda & vast resources to support whichever side suits them.
Ji is accurate in his assessment, though I see more ambiguity than he assumes in a class analysis which must take into account the enmeshed & complex lines of interest and power, sometimes crosscutting…one thing is clear is that we need to focus now on the military and its next moves because in some ways the Red Shirts have been used in an ongoing and underlying squabble within the military. That is, certain factions which missed out over the years in promotions or were punished post 1982 as Prem’s cronies were emplaced in positions of power and close to the palace. Violence is inevitable if the stage is going to play out in logical sequence in the coming weeks/months?- maybe even 19 September. The Red Shirts will provide the grist for the mill…
In a brief summary: The Men in Black in May 18-19 were opposing military interests who had used the context for particular interests. Tensions are unfortunately appearing within the mass movement as Saedaeng’s large and dedicated following are blaming the core leaders for the failure of the protests to deliver a decisive blow against fascism. Meanwhile street theatricalities continue under Sombat; while Red media “Same Sky” (faa Diawkan), & Red Power have been closed and printing equipment nicked. Many thousands attended young Krisadaa’s funeral in Chiangmai yesterday- (remember, he was shot by one of Abhisit’s assassins). While all this seems to be indicative of the continued tension out there among pro-democracy groups and relentless state repression- army factions are strategically working out the lay of the dice before Prayuth’s immanent promotion and the start of new despotic militarism…
Isn’t it interesting to see how far Giles leaves his principles behind. If we compared what is said here to the articles he was writing just after the 2006 coup, we would find criticisms of both Thaksin and the army back then. Now, and guessing that Giles has control of the introduction to his article being both a member of the UK’s SWP and its Thai expert, we get the following.
The rightist movement, known as the Yellow Shirts, are based on the middle class, the wealthy, monarchists and military officers who ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra because of his policies that benefited the poor, including the creation of a national health care program. The Red Shirts have mobilized the rural and urban poor–not simply in support of Thaksin, as the right claims, but to demand genuine democracy.
So in the Giles version of recent history Thaksin was ousted for helping the poor. No other reasons, or was that even part of the reason? Did Sonthi and Prem say “Let’s get rid of Thaksin because he has introduced a 30 Baht hospital visit policy”?
So 2010 and Giles no longer cares to mention Thaksin’s massacre of Muslims in the south or the killings of alleged drug dealers and users. Not only that but Giles implies that if you consider a red shirt movement outside of support to bring back Thaksin is wishful thinking then of course you must be a rightist. (BTW good to see Giles has changed to rightists from his previous fascists.)
Probably the most interesting bit of ideological gymnastics is that now the party considers those watermelon soldiers enemies of the people. Giles you weren’t saying that when Seh Daeng was making his little speeches, were you? I guess the black shirts aren’t friends of the people anymore either.
And your point Michael (#54) on the matter CIA relative to Thaksin, his downfall and Thailand’s difficulty to embrace a democracy based on rule-of-law and not rule-of-men?
You are not NOW blaming the CIA, the monarchy, the whole city of Bangkok not so enamored with the Thaksin ‘it-is-ok-to-be-corrupt’ charisma, every known and unknown so-called Thai elite, the invisible hands and ‘constant powers’, every professor of Chulalongkorn University, every Thai newspaper and their editors. . . the list could go on and on.
The short of it is: that elusive democracy for the Thai people could neither be painted in colors of red or yellow or colors. No constant or invisible powers in the world could impose their will on the Thai people to embrace Thaksin’s Red brand of ‘yes-we-can-corrupt’ democracy nor to embrace Abhisit’s semi-yellow brand of ‘generals-and-monarchy-behind-me’ democracy’.
For democracy to take deep roots in Thailand or in any of the many countries with similar wish for that form of government that is truly ‘of the people, for the people and by the people’ require inspirational, honest and determined leaders TO LEAD THEM TO THAT WAY . .
A ‘corrupt-is-ok’, tax finagling, extra-judicially murderous Thaksin or Thaksin-wannabes definitely fail that leadership test. Abhisit?? Maybe . . .maybe not.
Pardon me, we (me and Ralph Kremden) never initiate any discussion about Thaksin, you are the one who always brought up subject about the man as if you have no other knowledge about topic to talk about. The reason why I mention Thaksin’s corruption being grey was because there’s a very blur line whether we can considered those action as corruption. If Thaksin was to be found guilty of tax evasion on Shin case, then hell Korn has to be arrest the same manner when he sold his company to JPMorgan (you didn’t know about that right? yeah) and possibly thousand other business people that did exactly the same thing.
Moreover, if the Thai Court is really independent they would have found our Abhisit best friend, Newin, guilty of rubber sapling case since the evidences are there. On the other hand, they send Thaksin lawyers to jail for 6 months for bribery, with no trail or investigation, what kind of justice system is that?. If you think the past court’s ruling is fair in your opinion then fortunately for you because you will be able to live with it with not a single guilty conscious, but I can’t live with that.
Note that since the demised of Thaksin (and the end of extra-judicial killing for some) the necrotic related crime rate has increase to about 63% since 2006 to 2008 and possibly even higher in 2009. Now, I’m not saying I support extra-judicial killing, I’m just telling you that since your sum-of-all evil Thaksin left it seems that the Thai society once again got sunk into the hole of narcotic abuse like those in 1999.
Lastly about defending Mugabe, sorry to say this but it is easier for me to defend the Thaksin than Abhisit, I’m being honest here.
Matt B, I think everyone’s agreed that Thaksin was corrupt – even the Reddest of Shirts agree. Just as Abhisit’s government is corrupt. There is evidence coming out every week. But the fact is that Thaksin was an extraordinarily good administrator, much better than Mark. Thailand was far from falling into the sort of situation that Greece is now in, although it’s clear that it did, and still does, share a somewhat similar widespread avoidance of tax. (Do you have evidence that all the people at the top are paying their tax now?) So I can’t see where your rather ridiculous “Conclusion” in #53 comes from.
Not that I support corruption, but my major reason for not liking Thaksin is the exra-judicial killings & other human rights abuses. Clearly, the current government is not doing too well on that score either.
In #36 you say, “CIA responsible for the rise and fall of rogue leaders in the globe? Rogue leaders rise because of their deviousness and disregard for democratic rules-of-conduct. Rogue leaders fall because of their deviousness and disregard for democratic rules-of-conduct . . . with or without the so called invisible unnamed ‘constant powers’.”
Good god, Matt B! Where have you been hiding? Disregarding all the urban myths & conspiracy theories, there is ample evidence from Senate hearings, whistle-blowers, leaked & declassified documents, etc., that the CIA has spent billions, has trained guerrilla forces, has illegally supplied vast quantities of armaments, has engineered elaborate & devious character assassination schemes & manipulations of economies, has set up corporations, including banks, for laundering money & concealing payments, has even been a major player in the drug trade, to ensure the rise and fall of the rogues who have most suited US government & corporations, for over 50 years. Your statement is appallingly naive!
What a fascinating piece of scholarship! And a relief from reading about the dickheads of Thai politics. NM is certainly branching out.
I was quite interested to read about penile inserts being used to discourage the practice of sodomy, because in the 80s & 90s ‘Prince Alberts’ (see fig.2 c) became quite popular amongst gay fetishists in the West. Apparently their popularity spread to the straight community. I have no idea whether it has had any effect on the popularity of sodomy. Probably not. (There is a widespread urban myth to the effect that QV’s consort had one. But, of course, there’s absolutely no evidence.)
Clitoral piercings also became all the rage at that time, also pioneered by the homosexual community. A very ‘out’ lesbian aerial acrobatic performer with Circus Oz discussed hers in several alternative press articles, & various dykes of my acquaintance swore that they had seen her expose it to the audience at all-female events.
Kh. Pongphisoot, you’ve just given me another Very Good Reason to stay out of Thai prisons!
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Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
LesAbby, whoever they are, has not bothered to read my continuing criticism of Taksin’s human rights abuses while he was in government or my criticism of Seh Daeng before he was shot.
And yet Giles I read this article by you where you do not have a single criticism of Thaksin. Do you say one thing for the English reading market and another for the Thai readers? Are the complications of your take on the Thai political system too hard for the farangs to understand? Or are you just indulging in propaganda?
Burma in Limbo, Part 2
Hla Oo,
Let me get this straight: you seriously think LKY is saying the Burmese people are stupid, not the generals?
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
Giles stands up, now, and lets everyone know where he stands. In Thailand at this time doing so can easily get you arrested, certainly taken in for serious questioning that ends up being a hole in the bank from paying for travel to the police station you have to appear in.
The initial paragraph referenced and written by Giles did not say that helping the poor was the reason Thaksin was overthrown. Read it carefully. Nothing wrong with the grammar, just some mistaken idea of what it really said.
It’s easy to throw stones at others for not taking a stand now and here, but there are many issues in doing so, and being put in a Thai prison can’t be the least of them.
Once again, I decry Thais who want freedom but are not taking these things into court on an organized basis, and not putting together the Thai equivalent of an ACLU. Reform has to be done in the courts, not just of the court system itself, but of vital issues that the military, police and other extreme conservatives hold to their chests with such violent passion.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
Giles: A bit unfair to describe the Thai military as failing to stand up to the Japanese as if this was somehow unique. Who did succeed in standing up to the Japanese at the outset of their initial attacks?
Your interpretation of history is wanting. Vietnam a “war of independence”? Wasn’t it a civil war with American, Chinese, and the Soviet Union’s involvement within the context of the Cold War? Not everyone in Vietnam wanted communism.
The Thai military’s interaction with communists and Muslim separatists have not been “civil wars.” These are insurgencies and why would you describe the military as not being successful against these communists? Did Thailand go communist?
Center of power? In my opinion it goes beyond the military and even the monarchy. The center of power in Thailand emanates from Thai culture where the sacred link starts between a child and his/her parents. This sacred link is deeply embedded in Buddhist beliefs. This link is transferred to the king, who is viewed as Father. That, in my opinion, is the sacred link where everything starts and nothing can be understood without knowing this.
Many would argue that the military and the elite prop up the monarchy exploiting it for their own agendas. I agree, but I believe this is a vast simplification not taking into account values deeply embedded in Thai people including reverence and need for this Father figure.
Giles, your suggestion that Thailand simply throw out the monarchy makes perfect sense to me as a Westerner whose country was founded on the destruction of monarchy, but overthrowing monarchy means overthrowing culture and this is not so easily done.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
I’m not sure I understand your comment about the mastermind behind the messes and chaos. Are you talking about the deliberate dismantling of democracy and propaganda that states otherwise, or are you are talking about the not-so-invisible hand that is attempting to restore sanity before it’s too late.
I fear the fight for democracy has lost considerable ground in the last four years. I read on Wikipedia yesterday that government assistance to foreign NGOs working for the prevention of human trafficking stopped abrubtly when the PAD took power. Does anyone feel that the ‘red’ movement is organized, or that there is any hope? Does anyone else worry about extortion? Suzie outlined examples of two other Asian countries, but Thailand has its own unique circumstances, ie sex tourism. The blackmailing of individual Western executives or government officials when holidaying in Thailand could cause all sorts of problems for the World. Sometimes I wonder if some of the pro-PAD Farangs aren’t victims of extortion already.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
LesAbby, whoever they are, has not bothered to read my continuing criticism of Taksin’s human rights abuses while he was in government or my criticism of Seh Daeng before he was shot. Maybe LesAbby can’t read my articles in Thai. And yes, the coup was carried out by those who could not compete electorally with TRT’s pro-poor policies. Otherwise they could have opposed TRT at the ballot box. Time to do your home work LesAbby.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
I don’t know if Thaksin was ousted for “helping the poor” exactly, though many of his policies were aimed at and achieved exactly that – hence his continued support base today. But it certainly wasn’t for the “massacre of Muslims in the south or the killings of alleged drug dealers”; in the first of which the army that ousted him was heavily implicated and the second was part of a policy that was massively popular in Thailand at the time and received the vocal support of HMK. Nor do I think it was for his claimed corruption, though this was the smokescreen. No, Thaksin was ousted purely and simply because he represented an immense threat to the established order.
Teaching tips – how to keep students engaged
Tench #17 – I doubt that the extra tuition they do out of school has much to do with it. They behave just as obnoxiously towards their private tutors. One of my friends recently told me that he is expected to do his student’s school homework, with the parents’ backing, while the kid plays with his Play-station, a typical story. These are the sort of parents who pass over a fat envelope when they apply for uni admission. (I was amazed to discover that some of my senior Matthayom students already knew they had been accepted into courses at very prestigious universities well before entrance exams.)
Many Matthayom & Prathom (!!!) teachers I know – I could say most – have anecdotes about intercepting a cellphone that was being passed around with downloaded porn playing on it. School admins don’t do anything about such incidents. They’ve learnt that parents react very badly – towards the school!
I’ve taught at all levels here, & in public & private sector offices. I can say that it is a rare class that doesn’t have its cellphone users. I make a point now of establishing a very firm commitment from students at the beginning of the course, but some don’t keep it. And they are absolutely outraged when they lose marks for this, even though they’ve been warned from the start that this will be the consequence.
I feel really pathetic making such threats to tertiary-level, even post-grad., students. I certainly never had to do such things in Australia.
This raises the whole question of control in Thai institutions, including the issue of uniforms which Tarrin #21 brought up. Quite a few years ago, when I was working at a Rajabhat, every morning I would walk past a lecturer standing at the gate taking the names of students whose hair was ‘unsuitable’, skirts were too short, etc. Awful! I put it down to a systemic cultivation of immaturity & lack of self-discipline that begins at Anuban (pre-school) level. The teachers don’t know how to develop well-balanced & disciplined students – a lack in their training -, and many parents, especially those of the arrogant new middle-class, don’t either, & don’t care. So, in some ways, it’s necessary to employ fascist strategies (uniforms, marking the roll, etc.) to keep up an appearance of order & maintain a fear of the ‘rulers’. Keep ’em stupid & boss them around.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
MattB- after all these messes and chaos if you still cannot see the causes and the mastermind behind all these troubles, I think you should go back and start to study kindergarten again. May be you want to be a slave or you want to live under someone feet forever. Stop your day dream and wake up to see reality in front of you, don’t shut your mind!
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
MattB- you should be able to see through the veil of conspiracy through the social field of the summit by now: the “wounds” (as you have it) are caused by the amaat: not Thaksin- he was simply a victim of the amaat regime. The problem is rooted in 24 June 1932, the Siamese Revolution which was supposed to ensure constitutional power for the people in accordance with the aspirations of King Prajadhipok (Rama VII) . Ever since then the amaat have tried to control the constitution and write clauses to maintain their benefits and power over the aspirations of the people. This enabled the amaat to get back into power after the elite revolution replacing the Absolute Monarchy. In fact whenever the situation gets out of hand and the amaat start to lose control through social order, politics and the economy (e.g. as in a perceived runaway liberal democracy shifting benefits downwards and outwards, as under Thaksin) the amaat bring out their mighty forces and regain dominance through their enmeshed civil and military networks. MOre recently ever since 2005 the amaat regime blamed Thaksin and said that if only he would stop (?) then everything would be fine. However, instead, if we invert this logic, it is because the problem historically comes from the amaat; so if they are stopped, then in fact everything would be solved!
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
Thailand is right to take careful steps towards embracing ‘western-style’ democracy without ‘adjustments’, with the wounds of the Thaksin regime and the burning of Bangkok still fresh and unhealed.
The chaos of Zimbabwe, the disorientation and rampant corruption of the Philippines, the economic and moral bankruptcy of Greece and many other countries should be lesson enough that democracy could malfunction with horrendous consequences to the unwary.
Giles Ji with his dubious ultra-left leaning politics entices certainly . . . but his view of democracy is not far-off from the Venezuelan Chavez model, or maybe, even Zimbabwean Mugabe. Which is: destroy the old order and reconstruct from the ruins, whatever the outcome, everybody will be equally miserable and poor.
Burma in Limbo, Part 2
Thanks Peter for the comment and the link.
I read it many times before in 2007. My interpretation is his throwaway comment widely reported all over the world basically implied that we Burmese (especially the governing generals) are too dumb to make good use of our abundant natural resources and we collectively wrecked the economy of Burma.
I am one of these stupid Burmese who, after receiving expensive engineering education, fled the country and abandoned the people just to serve another society with that education and experience provided free by the people of Burma.
I don’t think the outsiders see Mr Lee Kuan Yew totally apart from the Singaporean people even though there are many questions about his family’s tight hold on Singapore.
He is one of them and he represents the people of Singapore in our eyes same as the generals represent the Burmese society, whether the people like it or not, in the world’s eyes.
I believe a government is responsible for the people and the people are also responsible for the government they have, aren’t they. Burmese have a succession of stupid governments since English left Burma in 4 January 1948.
By the way have you ever read about Mr LKY’s calling Australians the white trash of Asia?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/DL19Ae02.html
Grave mistake for a extremely- self-assured seasoned politician!
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
Thank you for this straight to the point analysis by Ji Ungpakorn. I agree with Ji’s conclusion that the current military fraction, the Thai monarchy and the corrupted politicians are not interested in pursuing genuine modernization and democratization.
As a result, this would lead to Nepal’s model of violence with the potential of a decade long internal conflict claiming more than 13,000 lives. The southern problem has already claimed 4,000 lives. Majority of Thai people are frustrated with the lack of progress in restoring law and order, in meeting people’s aspirations for a greater political voice, broader social and economic inclusion, and better access to resources, jobs and services.
In contrast, Indonesia is successful in showing that “Islam, Democracy, and Governance,” can thrive together. Indonesia’s embrace of democracy has made it possible for Indonesia to transform the country from over three decades of “New Order” authoritarian rule in 1998. Thanks to the Indonesian’s military, Indonesia is now entered an era of bold reform characterized by democratic institution building and decentralization of governance. Reformasi is successful and Indonesia is seen today as a vibrant regional example of democracy working to achieve compromise and political stability in a nation of varied culture, religion, politics, and regional identities.
We have two contrasting cases. Nepal has successfully democratized from below while Indonesia achieves democracy from above. I hope Thailand is wise enough to choose the path Indonesia has taken toward modernity.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
MattB #56: You are right. I am “not NOW blaming the CIA… ” I don’t know yet. I was responding to your comment in which you downplayed the role of the CIA in the rise & fall of “rogue leaders.” I was pointing you in the direction of discovering that over the last 50 years or so they have had a major hand in the rise & fall of almost every rogue leader in the world.
If you think the coup was about corruption or extra-judicial killing etc., you haven’t canvassed the alternatives, & apparently haven’t really looked into the history of Thailand, in which almost every PM has been massively corrupt & abused human rights – with very little protest. It was about much more compelling issues, from the point of view of those who engineered it. Corruption was a useful cover story, & provided a useful environment for whipping up support – but it was not the reason.
Yes, leadership is a problem. But in the apparently unlikely event that ethical, articulate & relatively altruistic leaders do emerge, they will still have the problem of dealing with forces inside the country that have enormous power & ability to control, and outside the country that have their own economic agenda & vast resources to support whichever side suits them.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
Ji is accurate in his assessment, though I see more ambiguity than he assumes in a class analysis which must take into account the enmeshed & complex lines of interest and power, sometimes crosscutting…one thing is clear is that we need to focus now on the military and its next moves because in some ways the Red Shirts have been used in an ongoing and underlying squabble within the military. That is, certain factions which missed out over the years in promotions or were punished post 1982 as Prem’s cronies were emplaced in positions of power and close to the palace. Violence is inevitable if the stage is going to play out in logical sequence in the coming weeks/months?- maybe even 19 September. The Red Shirts will provide the grist for the mill…
In a brief summary: The Men in Black in May 18-19 were opposing military interests who had used the context for particular interests. Tensions are unfortunately appearing within the mass movement as Saedaeng’s large and dedicated following are blaming the core leaders for the failure of the protests to deliver a decisive blow against fascism. Meanwhile street theatricalities continue under Sombat; while Red media “Same Sky” (faa Diawkan), & Red Power have been closed and printing equipment nicked. Many thousands attended young Krisadaa’s funeral in Chiangmai yesterday- (remember, he was shot by one of Abhisit’s assassins). While all this seems to be indicative of the continued tension out there among pro-democracy groups and relentless state repression- army factions are strategically working out the lay of the dice before Prayuth’s immanent promotion and the start of new despotic militarism…
Ji Ungpakorn on Thai political change
Isn’t it interesting to see how far Giles leaves his principles behind. If we compared what is said here to the articles he was writing just after the 2006 coup, we would find criticisms of both Thaksin and the army back then. Now, and guessing that Giles has control of the introduction to his article being both a member of the UK’s SWP and its Thai expert, we get the following.
The rightist movement, known as the Yellow Shirts, are based on the middle class, the wealthy, monarchists and military officers who ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra because of his policies that benefited the poor, including the creation of a national health care program. The Red Shirts have mobilized the rural and urban poor–not simply in support of Thaksin, as the right claims, but to demand genuine democracy.
So in the Giles version of recent history Thaksin was ousted for helping the poor. No other reasons, or was that even part of the reason? Did Sonthi and Prem say “Let’s get rid of Thaksin because he has introduced a 30 Baht hospital visit policy”?
So 2010 and Giles no longer cares to mention Thaksin’s massacre of Muslims in the south or the killings of alleged drug dealers and users. Not only that but Giles implies that if you consider a red shirt movement outside of support to bring back Thaksin is wishful thinking then of course you must be a rightist. (BTW good to see Giles has changed to rightists from his previous fascists.)
Probably the most interesting bit of ideological gymnastics is that now the party considers those watermelon soldiers enemies of the people. Giles you weren’t saying that when Seh Daeng was making his little speeches, were you? I guess the black shirts aren’t friends of the people anymore either.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
And your point Michael (#54) on the matter CIA relative to Thaksin, his downfall and Thailand’s difficulty to embrace a democracy based on rule-of-law and not rule-of-men?
You are not NOW blaming the CIA, the monarchy, the whole city of Bangkok not so enamored with the Thaksin ‘it-is-ok-to-be-corrupt’ charisma, every known and unknown so-called Thai elite, the invisible hands and ‘constant powers’, every professor of Chulalongkorn University, every Thai newspaper and their editors. . . the list could go on and on.
The short of it is: that elusive democracy for the Thai people could neither be painted in colors of red or yellow or colors. No constant or invisible powers in the world could impose their will on the Thai people to embrace Thaksin’s Red brand of ‘yes-we-can-corrupt’ democracy nor to embrace Abhisit’s semi-yellow brand of ‘generals-and-monarchy-behind-me’ democracy’.
For democracy to take deep roots in Thailand or in any of the many countries with similar wish for that form of government that is truly ‘of the people, for the people and by the people’ require inspirational, honest and determined leaders TO LEAD THEM TO THAT WAY . .
A ‘corrupt-is-ok’, tax finagling, extra-judicially murderous Thaksin or Thaksin-wannabes definitely fail that leadership test. Abhisit?? Maybe . . .maybe not.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
MattB – 52
Pardon me, we (me and Ralph Kremden) never initiate any discussion about Thaksin, you are the one who always brought up subject about the man as if you have no other knowledge about topic to talk about. The reason why I mention Thaksin’s corruption being grey was because there’s a very blur line whether we can considered those action as corruption. If Thaksin was to be found guilty of tax evasion on Shin case, then hell Korn has to be arrest the same manner when he sold his company to JPMorgan (you didn’t know about that right? yeah) and possibly thousand other business people that did exactly the same thing.
Moreover, if the Thai Court is really independent they would have found our Abhisit best friend, Newin, guilty of rubber sapling case since the evidences are there. On the other hand, they send Thaksin lawyers to jail for 6 months for bribery, with no trail or investigation, what kind of justice system is that?. If you think the past court’s ruling is fair in your opinion then fortunately for you because you will be able to live with it with not a single guilty conscious, but I can’t live with that.
Note that since the demised of Thaksin (and the end of extra-judicial killing for some) the necrotic related crime rate has increase to about 63% since 2006 to 2008 and possibly even higher in 2009. Now, I’m not saying I support extra-judicial killing, I’m just telling you that since your sum-of-all evil Thaksin left it seems that the Thai society once again got sunk into the hole of narcotic abuse like those in 1999.
Lastly about defending Mugabe, sorry to say this but it is easier for me to defend the Thaksin than Abhisit, I’m being honest here.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
Matt B, I think everyone’s agreed that Thaksin was corrupt – even the Reddest of Shirts agree. Just as Abhisit’s government is corrupt. There is evidence coming out every week. But the fact is that Thaksin was an extraordinarily good administrator, much better than Mark. Thailand was far from falling into the sort of situation that Greece is now in, although it’s clear that it did, and still does, share a somewhat similar widespread avoidance of tax. (Do you have evidence that all the people at the top are paying their tax now?) So I can’t see where your rather ridiculous “Conclusion” in #53 comes from.
Not that I support corruption, but my major reason for not liking Thaksin is the exra-judicial killings & other human rights abuses. Clearly, the current government is not doing too well on that score either.
In #36 you say, “CIA responsible for the rise and fall of rogue leaders in the globe? Rogue leaders rise because of their deviousness and disregard for democratic rules-of-conduct. Rogue leaders fall because of their deviousness and disregard for democratic rules-of-conduct . . . with or without the so called invisible unnamed ‘constant powers’.”
Good god, Matt B! Where have you been hiding? Disregarding all the urban myths & conspiracy theories, there is ample evidence from Senate hearings, whistle-blowers, leaked & declassified documents, etc., that the CIA has spent billions, has trained guerrilla forces, has illegally supplied vast quantities of armaments, has engineered elaborate & devious character assassination schemes & manipulations of economies, has set up corporations, including banks, for laundering money & concealing payments, has even been a major player in the drug trade, to ensure the rise and fall of the rogues who have most suited US government & corporations, for over 50 years. Your statement is appallingly naive!
Linga bell, linga bell, jingle all the way
What a fascinating piece of scholarship! And a relief from reading about the dickheads of Thai politics. NM is certainly branching out.
I was quite interested to read about penile inserts being used to discourage the practice of sodomy, because in the 80s & 90s ‘Prince Alberts’ (see fig.2 c) became quite popular amongst gay fetishists in the West. Apparently their popularity spread to the straight community. I have no idea whether it has had any effect on the popularity of sodomy. Probably not. (There is a widespread urban myth to the effect that QV’s consort had one. But, of course, there’s absolutely no evidence.)
Clitoral piercings also became all the rage at that time, also pioneered by the homosexual community. A very ‘out’ lesbian aerial acrobatic performer with Circus Oz discussed hers in several alternative press articles, & various dykes of my acquaintance swore that they had seen her expose it to the audience at all-female events.
Kh. Pongphisoot, you’ve just given me another Very Good Reason to stay out of Thai prisons!