The problem with both your remarks, and Stan G’s, is that they are most often ad hominem and not befitting of men the age you purportedly are. That was ad hominem. If you wish to engage in debate, the engage in it. Quite frankly, the pot calling the kettle black is becoming lard running through the NM arteries.
“In the meantime King Taksin of Dhonburi became insane. The nobles therefore seized him and put him to death in 1782.” – Jumsai, M.L,. ‘History of Laos’, Chalermint, 1971, p.100
JM #1: Why is it “patronizing to write something like that” ? Is it patronizing to say the opposite, that they are incapable of making a decision about which party should govern? This has been said, & there have been moves afoot to incorporate that view in the constitution. Many Thais & farang are saying this kind of thing every day.
Personally, I find your “it’s about time the people of Thailand get a grip of the situation and start acting to bridge the gap” very patronizing, since it seems to imply an obvious solution, already out in the open, which the Thai people cannot or will not see. But you, of course, can see it
Michael,
First, I find it obvious that most people can think for them self. Of course it is patronizing to say the opposite, but I thought that was too obvious even to comment. I was proven wrong.
Second,
Why do you try to make it look like I think that I am better than Thai? I never said anything like that at all. Are you trapped in some good/bad game where you have to fit me in somewhere?
Call me naive but I actually think that bridging the gap, working togheter and taking responsibility is part of the solution. I can’t see how anyone would find that patronizing but I was proven wrong again.
The level of hate seems to be quite high in Thailand at the moment. Not difficult to see why but I am having problems to see why it should be the same here and what the point is. But then I don’t understand why you take your time to replay to someone who, according to you, doesn’t think.
…………………………………………………..
It was interesting to see that I got so many thumbs down for my little comment. I saw nothing new in the article. Maybe I was missing a lot or the majority in here like to read the same all over again and again. Anyway, I am obviously not the right person to bridge the gap. Glad I didn’t give up my day job for this.
Thai sabre-rattling over Preah Vihear has become a kind of fascism barometer. International law is so clearly on the Cambodian side that whenever the issue is raised, the international community recalls the lawless Nazis goose-stepping into the Rhineland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, and beyond.
I think that the PAD are in charge of The Regime in Thailand. Not in terms of “serious” business : not in the day to day graft. But they get what they want when they want it.
This whole ultra-nationalist binge started out as a sideshow to try to put the last elected elected government in bad odor, then morphed into a handy means to keep real issues off the front page in the compliant Thai MSM… or so the Democrats thought.
Now the PAD, having been given inch after inch, are pushing for the mile. The military has probably convinced itself that it can win a war with Cambodia. The PAD are pushing in that direction. What’s going to stop them… Abhisit?
If Chamlong wore a red shirt he’d be on his back with a bullet in his forehead, instead it’s… ‘ “When it’s time I won’t be hesitate,” said Aphisit.’ Abhisit’s job description is doormat.
Susie Wong, I hope you’re wrong. So far I don’t see this as anything more than a fundamentally internal political issue: ie Abhisit needing to make sure he gets the Yellows fully on-side before the elections due next year. He needed to give them a little red meat just to satisfy their appetite. While the whole business of not just permitting but actually taking part in such a rally while the SoE is still in place is very dubious, Abhisit seems to have very astutely turned a difficult situation to his political advantage. The fact is that the Yellows are in reality no less than a fringe section of the “Democrats” (I use inverted commas advisedly). In the end they really have nowhere else to go unless they succeed in hijacking the “Democrats ” completely. I agree with you that it is nonetheless a game fraught with potential dangers and which could ultimately have serious regional/international consequences.
superaonoymous #5. Sure I’ll stay loose. Actually I don’t feel uptight about it at all and, yes. it is quite funny. I just think one needs to remember that nearly all these people use English as a second language – just listen to Tulsie in his video duets with Yoon. And I think Sam Deedes makes a valid point; otherwise I have nothing but praise for Andrew’s and Nick’s excellent site.
The shame is that when there is a debate such as on New Mandala, then censorship of one side’s arguments tends to make the debate a rather poor read. It gets to be rather like the sound of one hand clapping.
Tarrin and David Dunne I would like to answer you but cannot.
As superanonymous points out, my point was not to make fun of a typo. I make plenty of mistakes myself.
What I found interesting was the idea of a “territorial rite”. At present the crazies in the PAD and the government are involved in a fascinating, but very dangerous, public ritual.
You should have paid more attention in your civics class. Freedom of speech means that you can say what you want without being killed, thrown in jail or censored by the state. It does not mean that any private individual has any obligation to give you a platform.
Forgive the impertinence, but you don’t see a certain hypocrisy in imagining yourselves as the victims of persecution, given the energy you expend to defend the censorship, imprisonment and extrajudicial execution of those who oppose this government?
Oh – PAD, airports and Kasit (and please don’t say the PAD and Dems aren’t joined at the hip – if yesterday’s demo proved anything it was that).
I don’t think the Dems are really in charge anyway – just shop window dressing to keep anxious Western govts and investors onside.
There are some nasty people lurking in the shadows in Thailand who’ve proved time and again that they are very happy to kill a lot of people to protect their power and influence.
And as for extended SOE’s – I believe the one declared in Oct 1976 in Bangkok was never formally removed until 1992 when it was replaced with martial law.
A lot of the same nasties are still around from that time….
Sceptic-You ought to loosen up. You are correct, everybody makes typos, but in this case, it was an uncannily appropriate one. That was clearly the point. I don’t think it’s unfair to mention in a blog what you would certainly point out to your colleagues at lunch, or whatever.
Are you sure it’s Abhisit and the Democrat party that makes the final decision on whether to end the SOE or not?
I think Abhisit is stuck between a rock and hard place. If he’s not accommodating enough to the powers above him, he will be removed. If he’s not accommodating enough to the opposition more demonstrations and violence lie ahead.
If he actually goes his own way and tries to modernize Thailand, he will probably find himself hiding in some place like Macedonia before or later.
It reports that Robert Amsterdam has cited the Australian government’s travel warning about Thailand as an indication “that the Australian Government has little faith in the Thai regime’s badly conceived attempts at resolving the present political crisis and that the Abhisit-led government’s actions are actually exacerbating the crisis rather than creating a solution. ”
Some may see this as a somewhat liberal extrapolation from a fairly standard foreign office warning to the Australian government’s official position. What do NM readers feel?
Andrew, I think you are being a little unfair though I did see the point of drawing attention to the “uneducate” poster. Though I’m a native English speaker with a liberal arts degree, I still often find myself thinking phonically when I type. My most common error is to write “there” instead of “their”, though I do actually know the difference! Nearly all Nation staff are native Thai speakers and I, for one, am grateful to them for turning out an English news service in Thailand, the country in which I have made my home. That I rarely agree with their editorial line is beside the point.
Like almost all of New Mandala‘s “guest contributions” the essay by Robert Amsterdam was unsolicited by us. We are, as Andrew emphasised, always open to new perspectives, responses, critiques, rejoinders, etc.
And, to clarify: we are, and always have been, very open to considering contributions from Thai government officials, politicians, Ambassadors, lower ranking diplomats, military officers, etc, etc. The range of voices we have published over the years (from more than 130 guest contributors) signals the approach that we have taken.
If anyone from the Thai government or PAD, or wherever, reading this would like to make a contribution to New Mandala debates then they can contact me at the usual place. For reference, our guidelines for contributing are available here.
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Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
LesAbbey,
The problem with both your remarks, and Stan G’s, is that they are most often ad hominem and not befitting of men the age you purportedly are. That was ad hominem. If you wish to engage in debate, the engage in it. Quite frankly, the pot calling the kettle black is becoming lard running through the NM arteries.
What do you really have to say?
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
“In the meantime King Taksin of Dhonburi became insane. The nobles therefore seized him and put him to death in 1782.” – Jumsai, M.L,. ‘History of Laos’, Chalermint, 1971, p.100
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
JM #1: Why is it “patronizing to write something like that” ? Is it patronizing to say the opposite, that they are incapable of making a decision about which party should govern? This has been said, & there have been moves afoot to incorporate that view in the constitution. Many Thais & farang are saying this kind of thing every day.
Personally, I find your “it’s about time the people of Thailand get a grip of the situation and start acting to bridge the gap” very patronizing, since it seems to imply an obvious solution, already out in the open, which the Thai people cannot or will not see. But you, of course, can see it
Michael,
First, I find it obvious that most people can think for them self. Of course it is patronizing to say the opposite, but I thought that was too obvious even to comment. I was proven wrong.
Second,
Why do you try to make it look like I think that I am better than Thai? I never said anything like that at all. Are you trapped in some good/bad game where you have to fit me in somewhere?
Call me naive but I actually think that bridging the gap, working togheter and taking responsibility is part of the solution. I can’t see how anyone would find that patronizing but I was proven wrong again.
The level of hate seems to be quite high in Thailand at the moment. Not difficult to see why but I am having problems to see why it should be the same here and what the point is. But then I don’t understand why you take your time to replay to someone who, according to you, doesn’t think.
…………………………………………………..
It was interesting to see that I got so many thumbs down for my little comment. I saw nothing new in the article. Maybe I was missing a lot or the majority in here like to read the same all over again and again. Anyway, I am obviously not the right person to bridge the gap. Glad I didn’t give up my day job for this.
Abhisit’s territorial rite
Thai sabre-rattling over Preah Vihear has become a kind of fascism barometer. International law is so clearly on the Cambodian side that whenever the issue is raised, the international community recalls the lawless Nazis goose-stepping into the Rhineland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, and beyond.
Abhisit’s territorial rite
I think that the PAD are in charge of The Regime in Thailand. Not in terms of “serious” business : not in the day to day graft. But they get what they want when they want it.
This whole ultra-nationalist binge started out as a sideshow to try to put the last elected elected government in bad odor, then morphed into a handy means to keep real issues off the front page in the compliant Thai MSM… or so the Democrats thought.
Now the PAD, having been given inch after inch, are pushing for the mile. The military has probably convinced itself that it can win a war with Cambodia. The PAD are pushing in that direction. What’s going to stop them… Abhisit?
If Chamlong wore a red shirt he’d be on his back with a bullet in his forehead, instead it’s… ‘ “When it’s time I won’t be hesitate,” said Aphisit.’ Abhisit’s job description is doormat.
Things seem totally our of hand in Thailand.
Abhisit’s territorial rite
Susie Wong, I hope you’re wrong. So far I don’t see this as anything more than a fundamentally internal political issue: ie Abhisit needing to make sure he gets the Yellows fully on-side before the elections due next year. He needed to give them a little red meat just to satisfy their appetite. While the whole business of not just permitting but actually taking part in such a rally while the SoE is still in place is very dubious, Abhisit seems to have very astutely turned a difficult situation to his political advantage. The fact is that the Yellows are in reality no less than a fringe section of the “Democrats” (I use inverted commas advisedly). In the end they really have nowhere else to go unless they succeed in hijacking the “Democrats ” completely. I agree with you that it is nonetheless a game fraught with potential dangers and which could ultimately have serious regional/international consequences.
Abhisit’s territorial rite
superaonoymous #5. Sure I’ll stay loose. Actually I don’t feel uptight about it at all and, yes. it is quite funny. I just think one needs to remember that nearly all these people use English as a second language – just listen to Tulsie in his video duets with Yoon. And I think Sam Deedes makes a valid point; otherwise I have nothing but praise for Andrew’s and Nick’s excellent site.
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
Les Abbey,
Are you StanG in disguise?
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
Jao – 28
The shame is that when there is a debate such as on New Mandala, then censorship of one side’s arguments tends to make the debate a rather poor read. It gets to be rather like the sound of one hand clapping.
Tarrin and David Dunne I would like to answer you but cannot.
Abhisit’s territorial rite
As superanonymous points out, my point was not to make fun of a typo. I make plenty of mistakes myself.
What I found interesting was the idea of a “territorial rite”. At present the crazies in the PAD and the government are involved in a fascinating, but very dangerous, public ritual.
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
StanG and Mungo Gubbins,
You should have paid more attention in your civics class. Freedom of speech means that you can say what you want without being killed, thrown in jail or censored by the state. It does not mean that any private individual has any obligation to give you a platform.
Forgive the impertinence, but you don’t see a certain hypocrisy in imagining yourselves as the victims of persecution, given the energy you expend to defend the censorship, imprisonment and extrajudicial execution of those who oppose this government?
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
Chrie Beale
Yeah the Dems REALLY care about tourism….
Oh – PAD, airports and Kasit (and please don’t say the PAD and Dems aren’t joined at the hip – if yesterday’s demo proved anything it was that).
I don’t think the Dems are really in charge anyway – just shop window dressing to keep anxious Western govts and investors onside.
There are some nasty people lurking in the shadows in Thailand who’ve proved time and again that they are very happy to kill a lot of people to protect their power and influence.
And as for extended SOE’s – I believe the one declared in Oct 1976 in Bangkok was never formally removed until 1992 when it was replaced with martial law.
A lot of the same nasties are still around from that time….
Abhisit’s territorial rite
Be careful, comments like this can be used by those who disagree with you to undermine your more serious points.
Abhisit’s territorial rite
Sceptic-You ought to loosen up. You are correct, everybody makes typos, but in this case, it was an uncannily appropriate one. That was clearly the point. I don’t think it’s unfair to mention in a blog what you would certainly point out to your colleagues at lunch, or whatever.
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
@chris beale #18
Are you sure it’s Abhisit and the Democrat party that makes the final decision on whether to end the SOE or not?
I think Abhisit is stuck between a rock and hard place. If he’s not accommodating enough to the powers above him, he will be removed. If he’s not accommodating enough to the opposition more demonstrations and violence lie ahead.
If he actually goes his own way and tries to modernize Thailand, he will probably find himself hiding in some place like Macedonia before or later.
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Aljazeera report about this, with interview with Sopranzetti here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwy6jGt5Aps&feature=youtu.be
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
Thanks Nich. I look forward to more on this.
BTW New Mandala readers may find the article here http://phuketwan.com/tourism/travel-warnings-thaksins-lawyer-abuses-aussie-alert-12806/ from PhuketWan interesting.
It reports that Robert Amsterdam has cited the Australian government’s travel warning about Thailand as an indication “that the Australian Government has little faith in the Thai regime’s badly conceived attempts at resolving the present political crisis and that the Abhisit-led government’s actions are actually exacerbating the crisis rather than creating a solution. ”
Some may see this as a somewhat liberal extrapolation from a fairly standard foreign office warning to the Australian government’s official position. What do NM readers feel?
Abhisit’s territorial rite
р╕бр╕▓р╕гр╣Мр╕Др╕ер╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╕нр╕вр╕▓р╕Бр╣Др╕Фр╣Й “р╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕кр╕▓р╕Чр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕зр╕┤р╕лр╕▓р╕г”
Sat, 2010-08-07 14:46 from Prachatai
“р╕Цр╣Йр╕▓р╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╕Ьр╕бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕е” р╕Ьр╕бр╕Юр╕╣р╕Фр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Ар╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╕гр╕Цр╕ер╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕нр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╣Др╕Фр╣Й
“When it’s time I won’t be hesitate,” said Aphisit.
So this means Aphisit has “war option” in his thinking.
Wow, this’s getting messy!
Abhisit’s territorial rite
Andrew, I think you are being a little unfair though I did see the point of drawing attention to the “uneducate” poster. Though I’m a native English speaker with a liberal arts degree, I still often find myself thinking phonically when I type. My most common error is to write “there” instead of “their”, though I do actually know the difference! Nearly all Nation staff are native Thai speakers and I, for one, am grateful to them for turning out an English news service in Thailand, the country in which I have made my home. That I rarely agree with their editorial line is beside the point.
Robert Amsterdam on a “Strategy of Tension” in Bangkok
Thanks Mangoboy,
Like almost all of New Mandala‘s “guest contributions” the essay by Robert Amsterdam was unsolicited by us. We are, as Andrew emphasised, always open to new perspectives, responses, critiques, rejoinders, etc.
And, to clarify: we are, and always have been, very open to considering contributions from Thai government officials, politicians, Ambassadors, lower ranking diplomats, military officers, etc, etc. The range of voices we have published over the years (from more than 130 guest contributors) signals the approach that we have taken.
If anyone from the Thai government or PAD, or wherever, reading this would like to make a contribution to New Mandala debates then they can contact me at the usual place. For reference, our guidelines for contributing are available here.
Best wishes to all,
Nich