Yes, the idea that only people who are “genetically Thai” are capable of understanding or analyzing the Thailand situation is a very strange idea.
While that line of thinking is usually intended to “disqualify” and “reject” the thoughts and views of “Farangs”, especially “Farangs Who Know Too Much”, wouldn’t it also apply to those folks who are “genetically Chinese”?
In which case, it would eliminate most of the present Thailand government, many of the top generals and most of the large business/bank owners from being “qualified” to understand and analyze Thailand.
And would it also “disqualify” the 30 million or so Thai citizens who are Lao/Isan in background? Or the Malay ethnics near the Deep South border? Or the partly Hindu/Indian Thais around Surat Thani? Of the Mons? Or the various ethnic groups in the North?
In fact, is there a single Thailand citizen who is “genetically Thai” as even the Central Thais seem to be a genetic mix due to their history and geographic position at the nexus of trade routes, various invasions and periods of immigration and population movement.
Ah, I understand now…………..as there is no one who is in fact “genetically Thai”, there is actually no one at all who can understand and analyze Thailand!
How much of this “political conscientious” is made up of carefully considered talking points repeated endlessly, first on upcountry stages, and then on the Phan Fa and Ratchaprasong stages and transmitted countrywide through PTV until its shutdown toward the end of the protest?
I spent countless hours listening to and translating via twitter what was being said on the red stage. I was struck by how quiickly and often what I heard on the stage was repeated by my taxi drivers, e.g., “double standards”, “Thaksin saved the country from the merciless IMF”, “the only thing Democrats know how to do is borrow money,” etc., etc. The basic concepts came first from your grade A speakers; they were recited ad nauseum by your grade B and C speakers and, in the afternoon, they got a more folksy rendition from grassroots reps mainly from the North and Northeast.
The coup was wrong, the consitutional revisions counterproductive, the dissolution of pro-thaksin parties ill-considered, and the response to the yellow-shirt occupations of Govt House and Suvarnabhumi incomprehsible, but the core Thaksin programs are still going strong, a fact you never heard on the red stage.
How much of the red movement was simply manufactured by some very savvy people, Thaksin included; in other words wasn’t it just another power grab?
Greg, my comment on 4 was meant to go to the Thai-side, nothing to do with Malaysia or Malaysian politicians.
What distinguishes Thai political leadership from most of Southeast Asian nations is it comes with or without election. Thai leaders – politicians, former bureaucrats, and those peculiarly termed “opinion leaders” (what’s that?) preach democracy while they themselves never hold true to a principle of democracy. Undemocratic principles such as coup and corruption are generally seen to be bad, but when “my turn” comes you wouldn’t be surprised to see the so-called moralists joining the coup-led governments. The line of appointed/unelected leaders never ends in Thailand.
Have some integrity, know how to wait, and fight at the ballot like an educated and dignified person. Learn from your neighbouring countries; their politicians are neither better nor more capable than the Thai ones, but at least most accept that election is the final end of people’s democratic participation and rational choice-making.
This message goes to my focused group- you know who you are.
[…] inside the army to ascend through the ranks, I recommend reading Paul Chamber‘s lengthy, but in-depth essay on New Mandala. It also contains a handy list of all the current top army […]
Evil foreigners, once again! Reminds me of 97, when the whole charade fell apart, and who came to the rescue then? the evil farangs! I even recal a ten year old boy sayng the IMF stood for International Mother F%&#@!s. From my posts (that have have been) printed in the past I’m no fan of the reds but this myth that only Thais can have an opinion or attempt to understand is a big part of the undrlining problems in this country.
Considering your ‘brave’ comment, you can expect such a ‘LETTER’ sent directly to your mailbox.
Regarding your perspective of the global medias, my recommendation is, dumping your satellite reciever into the trash, shut down your internet, and living happily in your microcosm. : (
To RK. Having lived continuously in the Lao PDR for 15 years, established my home and family here and built a business which includes a bookshop and a publication house printing within Laos, and continuing to assist COPE in its attempts to patch-up the UXO legacy of American ‘assistance’ of the past, I fight against discrimination whatever guise it takes on. The fact that Japanese were also charged higher prices than Thai or Lao does not make dual pricing any more right, but more wrong. The fact that Lao civil servants get a low salary is evident to me, as I have worked with them for many years. But while I go to work in a 12-year old Suzuki, I park alongside BMWs belonging to my poorly paid colleagues. There is no justification for charging more or charging less because of nationality or racial features. I make the point that an academic institution should lead reform, not reinforce discrimination.
#14 “Socialism is arguably the secular equivalent of the holy grail.”
And we certainly know what a farce that has been over the centuries. I am no crusader. Those I distrust are most definitely crusaders. And their ever present threat to non-combatants is clear. Both sides engage in acts of terrorism and violent coercion. Theirs is the philosophy that certain sacred objects are desirable at any price.
Most of us are capable of living within any system that has some small degree of humanity within it. I am not reliant on a socialist mantra alone. In contrast, both sets of shirts have clearly demonstrated that they are more interested in idol worship than in actually changing anything. We might perhaps begin to trust them more when they drop their silly insistence on their ( highly suspect) objects of veneration and begin talking words that occasionally include a few references to REAL issues. As it is, all we ever get is the complaint of injustice against their enemies – fellow instruments of the elite. They both seem to have no policy other than to bludgeon each other until one falls over and the other gets all the spoils of victory.
Not a response to Simon, but some background related to what is implied:
According to the UNDP, the highest rates of poverty in 2007 were in Narathiwat, Nan, Buriram, Srisaket and Mae Hong Son. More than 80% of those in poverty in that year were domiciled in the North and North-eastern regions.
In 2007, the national average income per month was 18,660 baht, and in Bangkok it was 35,007 baht. In the North and North-east it was 13,568 and 12,995 respectively. The lowest provincial average was Mae Hong Son with 7,783 baht. Average incomes in nine of the 14 Southern provinces exceeding the national average.
For provinces having average incomes of two-thirds of the nationwide average in 2007, there are 15; 1 in the South, 5 in the North and 9 in the North-east.
In terms of Lao spelling, of course pre-1975 spelling is totally comprehensible to all, but it gives a strong (blatant) message to people resident in Lao PDR, and a strong (but latent) message to others that the conference is organised outside of the GOL and outside of Laos.
If one of the aims of the conference is to better engage Lao people inside Laos, including Lao research organisations, there would be less obstacles to surmount if the conference symbolically adopted the
spelling system of the current government. Adding a “sa-la” here and there is a bit like a foreigner wearing a sinh – it’s not entirely necessary, but the welcoming doors open a little wider, and create more space for dialogue and engagement.
It is argued that had there been a smooth transfer of power from Mahathir to Anwar Ibrahim, there would never have been a reformasi movement. It is also the likely case, had TR taken over from Mahathir.
The best evidence of this is that no one within the ruling party advocates for reform whether economic, civil or political – whether it was Tunku, Tun Razak, Hussein Onn let alone Mahathir or Najib. BN’s system of patronage is intact and the system is greater than the individual. Mahathir for all the power he wieded could not undo the patronage system – but in fact made it worse.
Look at Philippines and Thailand – a group of corrupt elite remain in control (through patronage) not withstanding democratic traditions. Malaysia’s only saving grace was that historically, the elite was not as corrupt as those in Thailand, Philippines or Indonesia. But they have caught up with their neighbours.
Hence, nothing short of a total revamp of the current social order is needed in Malaysia.
While Tunku may have been a wonderful individual, the problem with Malaysia began with UMNO. As I (and many others) (read here) have argued, it set the course for the failure of the idea of a nation based on equality.
Tunku may have been a wonderful person, but the ideology of Malay supremacy and patronage politics was part and parcel of the Alliance from day 1.
Read a short history of crony capitalism in Malaysia here
“Burma will know no peace until the powerful undergoes a Damascene conversion to seek a genuine political solution for national reconciliation which must include both the majority Burman and all ethnic minorities, instead of consistently demanding an unconditional surrender and unquestioning acceptance of ‘what’s good for them’ in the name of the union.”
“Saul to Paul road to Damascus conversion” involved a divine interdict of sort.
Neither GOD nor Angels are at work in the case of Myanmar citizenry plight!
In Myanmar case the seed of disharmony has long been sown and perpetuated by the outside none ethnic western forces that is ongoing.
Nurtured by subsequent Bamar administrations desire to dominate that translated to atrocious suppression in ways imaginable only to dictators.
Devil advocates? May be but still all human causes.
There may be more moral lessons in History yet to be learned.
A simple “will take as long to reverse a 3 decades of detrimental effect of ongoing policies” approach need to be acknowledged.
Self flagellation and denigration of own heroes, heritage and culture in a time when a civilization that practice these values are constantly being projected as worthy of its present unworthy fate by the same detractors.
Myanmar citizenry plight is LARGER than the sum of all that is said and done so far.
Only through diligent human effort in true engagements and diplomacy, by all parties involved will the not so well future of Myanmar-DPRK allliance be avoided.
Myanmar quagmire is human induced.
This article here show some way out: http://www.irrawaddy.org/opinion_story.php?art_id=19096
There is an ever present threat of any victorious revolution being hijacked by an emergent ruling class for their own enrichment and aggrandisement, swapping one tyranny for another. We’ve seen plenty of examples so far. Socialism is arguably the secular equivalent of the holy grail.
Simon @#10 :
Frankly that’s pretty unfair comment.
Where is Andrew “over-extrapolating the views of (his) pet village to the rest of the country” ?
If anything, I’d criticise Andrew for NOT extrapolating enough the views of his Lanna research, with those of Isaan.
Simon – your comments about “the south” don’t reveal anything we don’t already know – i.e. the deep south heavily Muslim, the other South heavily Democrat.
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“Thailand want р╕вр╕╕р╕Ър╕кр╕ар╕▓”: Red signs in English
Fall (c.18)
A long time since I posted this and I’m still puzzling over your crptic comment.
I give up . Can you explain?
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
re: barnsybkk #25
Yes, the idea that only people who are “genetically Thai” are capable of understanding or analyzing the Thailand situation is a very strange idea.
While that line of thinking is usually intended to “disqualify” and “reject” the thoughts and views of “Farangs”, especially “Farangs Who Know Too Much”, wouldn’t it also apply to those folks who are “genetically Chinese”?
In which case, it would eliminate most of the present Thailand government, many of the top generals and most of the large business/bank owners from being “qualified” to understand and analyze Thailand.
And would it also “disqualify” the 30 million or so Thai citizens who are Lao/Isan in background? Or the Malay ethnics near the Deep South border? Or the partly Hindu/Indian Thais around Surat Thani? Of the Mons? Or the various ethnic groups in the North?
In fact, is there a single Thailand citizen who is “genetically Thai” as even the Central Thais seem to be a genetic mix due to their history and geographic position at the nexus of trade routes, various invasions and periods of immigration and population movement.
Ah, I understand now…………..as there is no one who is in fact “genetically Thai”, there is actually no one at all who can understand and analyze Thailand!
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
How much of this “political conscientious” is made up of carefully considered talking points repeated endlessly, first on upcountry stages, and then on the Phan Fa and Ratchaprasong stages and transmitted countrywide through PTV until its shutdown toward the end of the protest?
I spent countless hours listening to and translating via twitter what was being said on the red stage. I was struck by how quiickly and often what I heard on the stage was repeated by my taxi drivers, e.g., “double standards”, “Thaksin saved the country from the merciless IMF”, “the only thing Democrats know how to do is borrow money,” etc., etc. The basic concepts came first from your grade A speakers; they were recited ad nauseum by your grade B and C speakers and, in the afternoon, they got a more folksy rendition from grassroots reps mainly from the North and Northeast.
The coup was wrong, the consitutional revisions counterproductive, the dissolution of pro-thaksin parties ill-considered, and the response to the yellow-shirt occupations of Govt House and Suvarnabhumi incomprehsible, but the core Thaksin programs are still going strong, a fact you never heard on the red stage.
How much of the red movement was simply manufactured by some very savvy people, Thaksin included; in other words wasn’t it just another power grab?
We were once ‘Malaysians’
Greg, my comment on 4 was meant to go to the Thai-side, nothing to do with Malaysia or Malaysian politicians.
What distinguishes Thai political leadership from most of Southeast Asian nations is it comes with or without election. Thai leaders – politicians, former bureaucrats, and those peculiarly termed “opinion leaders” (what’s that?) preach democracy while they themselves never hold true to a principle of democracy. Undemocratic principles such as coup and corruption are generally seen to be bad, but when “my turn” comes you wouldn’t be surprised to see the so-called moralists joining the coup-led governments. The line of appointed/unelected leaders never ends in Thailand.
Have some integrity, know how to wait, and fight at the ballot like an educated and dignified person. Learn from your neighbouring countries; their politicians are neither better nor more capable than the Thai ones, but at least most accept that election is the final end of people’s democratic participation and rational choice-making.
This message goes to my focused group- you know who you are.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
[…] inside the army to ascend through the ranks, I recommend reading Paul Chamber‘s lengthy, but in-depth essay on New Mandala. It also contains a handy list of all the current top army […]
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
PAD Boy# 17 :
“Some of most vociferous Red Shirt leaders come from the south”.
Who ?
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Simon
Some of most vociferous Red Shirt leaders come from the south.
But being the excellent student of Thai politics that you are, you’d already know that, right?
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
Evil foreigners, once again! Reminds me of 97, when the whole charade fell apart, and who came to the rescue then? the evil farangs! I even recal a ten year old boy sayng the IMF stood for International Mother F%&#@!s. From my posts (that have have been) printed in the past I’m no fan of the reds but this myth that only Thais can have an opinion or attempt to understand is a big part of the undrlining problems in this country.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
Dear M. B. Y. Kadaley # 14
Considering your ‘brave’ comment, you can expect such a ‘LETTER’ sent directly to your mailbox.
Regarding your perspective of the global medias, my recommendation is, dumping your satellite reciever into the trash, shut down your internet, and living happily in your microcosm. : (
Lao studies conference 2010: the fascination of the marginal
To RK. Having lived continuously in the Lao PDR for 15 years, established my home and family here and built a business which includes a bookshop and a publication house printing within Laos, and continuing to assist COPE in its attempts to patch-up the UXO legacy of American ‘assistance’ of the past, I fight against discrimination whatever guise it takes on. The fact that Japanese were also charged higher prices than Thai or Lao does not make dual pricing any more right, but more wrong. The fact that Lao civil servants get a low salary is evident to me, as I have worked with them for many years. But while I go to work in a 12-year old Suzuki, I park alongside BMWs belonging to my poorly paid colleagues. There is no justification for charging more or charging less because of nationality or racial features. I make the point that an academic institution should lead reform, not reinforce discrimination.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
#14 “Socialism is arguably the secular equivalent of the holy grail.”
And we certainly know what a farce that has been over the centuries. I am no crusader. Those I distrust are most definitely crusaders. And their ever present threat to non-combatants is clear. Both sides engage in acts of terrorism and violent coercion. Theirs is the philosophy that certain sacred objects are desirable at any price.
Most of us are capable of living within any system that has some small degree of humanity within it. I am not reliant on a socialist mantra alone. In contrast, both sets of shirts have clearly demonstrated that they are more interested in idol worship than in actually changing anything. We might perhaps begin to trust them more when they drop their silly insistence on their ( highly suspect) objects of veneration and begin talking words that occasionally include a few references to REAL issues. As it is, all we ever get is the complaint of injustice against their enemies – fellow instruments of the elite. They both seem to have no policy other than to bludgeon each other until one falls over and the other gets all the spoils of victory.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Not a response to Simon, but some background related to what is implied:
According to the UNDP, the highest rates of poverty in 2007 were in Narathiwat, Nan, Buriram, Srisaket and Mae Hong Son. More than 80% of those in poverty in that year were domiciled in the North and North-eastern regions.
In 2007, the national average income per month was 18,660 baht, and in Bangkok it was 35,007 baht. In the North and North-east it was 13,568 and 12,995 respectively. The lowest provincial average was Mae Hong Son with 7,783 baht. Average incomes in nine of the 14 Southern provinces exceeding the national average.
For provinces having average incomes of two-thirds of the nationwide average in 2007, there are 15; 1 in the South, 5 in the North and 9 in the North-east.
Lao studies conference 2010: the fascination of the marginal
In terms of Lao spelling, of course pre-1975 spelling is totally comprehensible to all, but it gives a strong (blatant) message to people resident in Lao PDR, and a strong (but latent) message to others that the conference is organised outside of the GOL and outside of Laos.
If one of the aims of the conference is to better engage Lao people inside Laos, including Lao research organisations, there would be less obstacles to surmount if the conference symbolically adopted the
spelling system of the current government. Adding a “sa-la” here and there is a bit like a foreigner wearing a sinh – it’s not entirely necessary, but the welcoming doors open a little wider, and create more space for dialogue and engagement.
We were once ‘Malaysians’
To #2: I’m all for debates. Everyone should have the right to speak and not to be arrested after that.
I’m not sure SM LKY will agree to this condition or understands the basic idea of ‘freedom of speech.’
We were once ‘Malaysians’
Not really A.Wales.
It is argued that had there been a smooth transfer of power from Mahathir to Anwar Ibrahim, there would never have been a reformasi movement. It is also the likely case, had TR taken over from Mahathir.
The best evidence of this is that no one within the ruling party advocates for reform whether economic, civil or political – whether it was Tunku, Tun Razak, Hussein Onn let alone Mahathir or Najib. BN’s system of patronage is intact and the system is greater than the individual. Mahathir for all the power he wieded could not undo the patronage system – but in fact made it worse.
Look at Philippines and Thailand – a group of corrupt elite remain in control (through patronage) not withstanding democratic traditions. Malaysia’s only saving grace was that historically, the elite was not as corrupt as those in Thailand, Philippines or Indonesia. But they have caught up with their neighbours.
Hence, nothing short of a total revamp of the current social order is needed in Malaysia.
We were once ‘Malaysians’
While Tunku may have been a wonderful individual, the problem with Malaysia began with UMNO. As I (and many others) (read here) have argued, it set the course for the failure of the idea of a nation based on equality.
Tunku may have been a wonderful person, but the ideology of Malay supremacy and patronage politics was part and parcel of the Alliance from day 1.
Read a short history of crony capitalism in Malaysia here
Burma in Limbo, Part 1
“Burma will know no peace until the powerful undergoes a Damascene conversion to seek a genuine political solution for national reconciliation which must include both the majority Burman and all ethnic minorities, instead of consistently demanding an unconditional surrender and unquestioning acceptance of ‘what’s good for them’ in the name of the union.”
“Saul to Paul road to Damascus conversion” involved a divine interdict of sort.
Neither GOD nor Angels are at work in the case of Myanmar citizenry plight!
In Myanmar case the seed of disharmony has long been sown and perpetuated by the outside none ethnic western forces that is ongoing.
Nurtured by subsequent Bamar administrations desire to dominate that translated to atrocious suppression in ways imaginable only to dictators.
Devil advocates? May be but still all human causes.
There may be more moral lessons in History yet to be learned.
A simple “will take as long to reverse a 3 decades of detrimental effect of ongoing policies” approach need to be acknowledged.
Self flagellation and denigration of own heroes, heritage and culture in a time when a civilization that practice these values are constantly being projected as worthy of its present unworthy fate by the same detractors.
Myanmar citizenry plight is LARGER than the sum of all that is said and done so far.
Only through diligent human effort in true engagements and diplomacy, by all parties involved will the not so well future of Myanmar-DPRK allliance be avoided.
Myanmar quagmire is human induced.
This article here show some way out:
http://www.irrawaddy.org/opinion_story.php?art_id=19096
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
FredKorat
There is an ever present threat of any victorious revolution being hijacked by an emergent ruling class for their own enrichment and aggrandisement, swapping one tyranny for another. We’ve seen plenty of examples so far. Socialism is arguably the secular equivalent of the holy grail.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Simon @#10 :
Frankly that’s pretty unfair comment.
Where is Andrew “over-extrapolating the views of (his) pet village to the rest of the country” ?
If anything, I’d criticise Andrew for NOT extrapolating enough the views of his Lanna research, with those of Isaan.
Simon – your comments about “the south” don’t reveal anything we don’t already know – i.e. the deep south heavily Muslim, the other South heavily Democrat.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Simon asks: “How many seats does the opposition hold in the south? Do you know why?”
I presume it’s because people there make different political decisions.