Interesting that someone would use Borba as a source, a newspaper that was hasn’t published anything since May 2009 and which was always recognised as being a mouthpiece for Russian intelligence services.
So, Mangoboy, the idea that it is a source of “Everything you need to know about questionable and discredited lobbyist/PR stuntman Robert Amsterdam” is rather silly. This isn’t just “drawing attentions to criticisms” but attempting to set up your comment as definitive when it is clearly based on spurious information.
Also, do you have any reputable sources that aren’t tinged with anti-semitism, such as Borbas?
Say what you will about his opinions in Thailand, but the man is a legitimately well known and highly respected international lawyer. All that garbage like “Borba” is filled with seemingly invented unnamed sources, which is clearly designed as part of a black smear campaign.
As for this document, I have to say that I strongly disagree with Thaksin and I do not believe he should ever be in office again … but Amsterdam’s paper is about the killings of Red Shirts, and the evidence there is abundant.
Am correct in thinking that the actions of the Assembly of the Poor were along these lines and that they helped the demise of the last Democrat government?
You mean the 1st Chuan government? I think the main catalyst in the down fall of Chuan 1 was that Sor Por Gor 4-01 and some other notorious corruption case. Moreover, I don’t think they were called Assembly of the Poor then but I could be wrong on this. I think the Assembly of the Poor play very little role in bring down Chuan government. Not until Thaksin government that they decided to disbanded (with a little help from Samak). If you still believe in reforming then I have no objection on that, but reforming under revolution condition will not do any good.
Thaksin’s own money? I guess possession is 9/10ths and all that, but tax the free sale of ShinCorp seems a bit cheeky on the tax payer too wouldn’t you agree?
The man is on the top 20 richest individual in Thailand since before he became the prime minister, for all we know that money that involve the sale of Shin still stuck in Thailand with 60% of that already being transfer to the state coffer.
Sophie #17: I agree that in “a highly propagandised environment like Thailand, truth is a puzzle with many pieces missing.” However, in the absence of photographic or other credible evidence, it is impossible to regard statements such as your “testimonies” & “reports” as credible. Both the Redshirts & the govt quote figures between 80 & 90 at this stage. That is horrifying & damning enough, especially since the list of deaths on the govt side is so small, given that most were killed by either ‘friendly fire’, or an accident, or, possibly, not by Redshirts – leading to the conclusion, backed up by solid evidence (photos, videos, independent journalists’ & diplomats’ accounts, &, for me, my own visits to the encampments at Pan Fah & Rajaphrasong) that the protesters were overwhelmingly non-violent.
I don’t say that these reports are lies. They may well be true, but considering the huge amount of photographic evidence of the atrocities, & the lack of any concrete evidence of bodies being loaded into trucks & taken away, I’m reserving judgement. There doesn’t appear to be any list of missing protesters yet. Surely this would be a starting-point.
Regarding ShinCorp sale to Temasek, I think the stock was owned by his mature son, and some in -law, wasn’t it? There’s nothing to do with Thaksin in term of ownership.
Anyhow, please advise me if Thai stock trading requires tax payment. My understanding is, it’s tax exempted, isn’t it?
The point of Amsterdams’ report, I see it’s similar to those eye-witnesses, foreign-journalists, nothing new.
So if the Abhisit’s government’s mind is not that narrowed, shouldn’t they listen to those outside world? Or they just want to shut them down like a singer contestant, Mark V-11?
I am rather inclined to add that Borba, one of Mangoboy’s sources, cannot be possibly considered as truly non partisan, taking in account its pro Russian establishment stance.
Anyone, who’s aware of Amsterdam’s work for Mikhail Khodorkovsky, should be better on alert here.
“Well, at least some MA-level research assistant could use his/her rudimentary knowledge of some of the academic literature on Thai politics to earn some additional bucks… They also seems to have an Internet connection!”
Comment #4 Why would you assume I haven’t read it? A little unfair wouldn’t you say? Have you read the articles I linked to?
Comment #3 Maybe it is the standard establishment response. I’m not sure that in my case I could be classified as establishment however. Nor do I think it fair to dismiss what I say simply because of who you imply I am – doesn’t that fall foul of the very point you make. A little hypocritical wouldn’t you say?
However, I don’t see any harm in drawing attention to the criticism of Amsterdam’s PR firm. Does that not enrich the debate? Read the articles if you haven’t already and be humble before casting stones.
Comment #2 Thaksin’s own money? I guess possession is 9/10ths and all that, but tax the free sale of ShinCorp seems a bit cheeky on the tax payer too wouldn’t you agree?
Well, at least some MA-level research assistant could use his/her rudimentary knowledge of some of the academic literature on Thai politics to earn some additional bucks… They also seems to have an Internet connection!
As a graduate of MIT (of Vietnam war vintage who attended MIT in the late 1960’s) and who has been living here in Thailand for 10 years, (and also is Italian) I found particularly interesting the paragraph towards the very end of the interview with Mr. Sopranzetti, namely:
“Part of the Vietnam War’s era of cooperation between the United States and Thailand was urban planning advice. A team from MIT came here in the sixties and drew the first master plan. The objective was to transform Bangkok into a car-based city, by filling up canals and building highways which were going straight into the centre. With these highways, the centre started developing. And the owners of the land wanted to make money fast, so they gave streets to develop. They did not have any street developing methods. They developed mega-blocks with very small soi. This makes public transportation impossible. Either everybody uses a car and the traffic becomes unbearable, or you need a form of transportation that brings you from your home to the bus station, the skytrain station, the offices… and this form of transportation is the motorcycle taxi”
I am almost certain that Mr. Sopranzetti (Claudio) (and some other readers too) have read “Confessioni di un Sicario dell’Economia” (I think the English title is “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” which I believe helps set and understand fairly well “the wider context” for some of the obviously “very wise and forward looking” advice offered to Thailand by that MIT team back in the 1960’s
Hopefully some lessons have been learnt since then and slightly better policy advice is now flowing from (and will be forthcoming in the future) out of both Harvard and MIT.
But of course only “time will tell” whether (for instance) some of the current ideas as to how countries best might deal with and integrate into Globalization and some of its trends and phenomena, will be extremely helpful or equally disastrous.
I read the 77-page report written by Robert Amsterdam’s PR firm, which was very well written and footnoted. I presume the audience is intended to be international in scope and will target dipolomatic missions around the world. If so, I think it will have the desired effect of putting international pressure on the current regime. I also read the 2Bangkok.com postings about Robert Amsterdam recommended by Mangoboy, and found nothing that would justify the ad hominem attack characterizing him as a discredited stuntman. Seems to me he is behaving quite professionally.
Tarrin & I agree that the changes needed in our society are so great that to describe them as a revolution is no understatement.
A revolution involves great changes in the way people act, an heightened awareness of their rights (and I would say the rights of Mother Earth) and in their willingness to participate.
The reformism I am advocating is in fact one intended to revolutionize the way people act and to expose the hypocracy of the regime and undermine its legitimacy. Am correct in thinking that the actions of the Assembly of the Poor were along these lines and that they helped the demise of the last Democrat government?
Mangoboy dismisses without reading it seems. I guess that makes it easier. Just for interest, I entered Thailand last week and noted that Amsterdam’s name remains taped to immigration officer desks. Presumably he isn’t permitted to enter the Kingdom of Orwell.
Mangoboy adopts the standard reponse from the Establishment apologists – just attack the person not the argument. And if that fails start screaming hysterically, calling names etc etc – just like a spoiled kid (come to think of it that about sums up the level of sophistication about Thai politics in the popular media).
I don’t want to draw parallels with holocaust, but wasn’t it basically the same sickening attitude towards the opposition when cold blooded murders do not provoke any negative emotional response anymore? Killing them is like killing mosquitoes.
Its like when you show the sympathy to the 90 death that die during the protest? the irony is there definitely.
Ricky Wand – 51
I advocate using the constitution and laws to redress the current situation and not leaving them to the amnart as neptunian nicely puts it as “Constitution and laws are for general public and international community consumption.”
Using law and constitution to change to way things run can be considered as “reforming”. I don’t think reforming will yield any chance of success when one said has all the power. I think under current situation “revolution” have a better chance to succeed.
Another reminder of the truly great tragedy: not the coup, but the fact that Thaksin could have really been a reformer and modernizer, with effective, decisive ideas. The missing component was an actual belief in a free and healthy opposition. Thaksin was half reformer, half autocrat. Thailand seems divided between those who want to close one eye or the other.
With regards to Lao studies, what happens in Thailand is of little significance except that some leftist Thai scholars may be reluctant to present themselves at a Lao forum for the fear of being typecast as a radical. The problems in Thailand are long standing and the Lao have more pressing concerns in-country to focus on. As to the LPRP Politburo, it is looking towards the national congress of the Party and National Assembly elections next year. Lao people just enjoyed watching Thai TV to see some rare individuals get up and publicly criticize the establishment. Lao citizens have better access to the channels of influence so they are not as disenfranchised as their Thai-based kith and kin. I think your references to the Cold War mentality hold more significance with the Thai elite as the military needs to justify its huge increases in spending.
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“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Interesting that someone would use Borba as a source, a newspaper that was hasn’t published anything since May 2009 and which was always recognised as being a mouthpiece for Russian intelligence services.
So, Mangoboy, the idea that it is a source of “Everything you need to know about questionable and discredited lobbyist/PR stuntman Robert Amsterdam” is rather silly. This isn’t just “drawing attentions to criticisms” but attempting to set up your comment as definitive when it is clearly based on spurious information.
Also, do you have any reputable sources that aren’t tinged with anti-semitism, such as Borbas?
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Everything you need to know about international lawyer Robert Amsterdam can be read here:
http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/international-news/portfolio/2008/07/16/Yukos-Attorney-Bob-Amsterdam/
Or watch him interviewed on Charlie Rose:
http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/223
Or see his writing published in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1/79334a88-8d15-11dc-a398-0000779fd2ac.html
Say what you will about his opinions in Thailand, but the man is a legitimately well known and highly respected international lawyer. All that garbage like “Borba” is filled with seemingly invented unnamed sources, which is clearly designed as part of a black smear campaign.
As for this document, I have to say that I strongly disagree with Thaksin and I do not believe he should ever be in office again … but Amsterdam’s paper is about the killings of Red Shirts, and the evidence there is abundant.
Big questions for Thailand
Ricky Ward – 54
Am correct in thinking that the actions of the Assembly of the Poor were along these lines and that they helped the demise of the last Democrat government?
You mean the 1st Chuan government? I think the main catalyst in the down fall of Chuan 1 was that Sor Por Gor 4-01 and some other notorious corruption case. Moreover, I don’t think they were called Assembly of the Poor then but I could be wrong on this. I think the Assembly of the Poor play very little role in bring down Chuan government. Not until Thaksin government that they decided to disbanded (with a little help from Samak). If you still believe in reforming then I have no objection on that, but reforming under revolution condition will not do any good.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Mangoboy – 7
Thaksin’s own money? I guess possession is 9/10ths and all that, but tax the free sale of ShinCorp seems a bit cheeky on the tax payer too wouldn’t you agree?
The man is on the top 20 richest individual in Thailand since before he became the prime minister, for all we know that money that involve the sale of Shin still stuck in Thailand with 60% of that already being transfer to the state coffer.
Freedom of expression in Thailand
Sophie #17: I agree that in “a highly propagandised environment like Thailand, truth is a puzzle with many pieces missing.” However, in the absence of photographic or other credible evidence, it is impossible to regard statements such as your “testimonies” & “reports” as credible. Both the Redshirts & the govt quote figures between 80 & 90 at this stage. That is horrifying & damning enough, especially since the list of deaths on the govt side is so small, given that most were killed by either ‘friendly fire’, or an accident, or, possibly, not by Redshirts – leading to the conclusion, backed up by solid evidence (photos, videos, independent journalists’ & diplomats’ accounts, &, for me, my own visits to the encampments at Pan Fah & Rajaphrasong) that the protesters were overwhelmingly non-violent.
I don’t say that these reports are lies. They may well be true, but considering the huge amount of photographic evidence of the atrocities, & the lack of any concrete evidence of bodies being loaded into trucks & taken away, I’m reserving judgement. There doesn’t appear to be any list of missing protesters yet. Surely this would be a starting-point.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Mangoboy# 7
Regarding ShinCorp sale to Temasek, I think the stock was owned by his mature son, and some in -law, wasn’t it? There’s nothing to do with Thaksin in term of ownership.
Anyhow, please advise me if Thai stock trading requires tax payment. My understanding is, it’s tax exempted, isn’t it?
The point of Amsterdams’ report, I see it’s similar to those eye-witnesses, foreign-journalists, nothing new.
So if the Abhisit’s government’s mind is not that narrowed, shouldn’t they listen to those outside world? Or they just want to shut them down like a singer contestant, Mark V-11?
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Excellent article and useful information! Thank you. <3
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
I am rather inclined to add that Borba, one of Mangoboy’s sources, cannot be possibly considered as truly non partisan, taking in account its pro Russian establishment stance.
Anyone, who’s aware of Amsterdam’s work for Mikhail Khodorkovsky, should be better on alert here.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Srithanonchai
I guess you’d know how this feels, huh? 😉
“Well, at least some MA-level research assistant could use his/her rudimentary knowledge of some of the academic literature on Thai politics to earn some additional bucks… They also seems to have an Internet connection!”
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Comment #4 Why would you assume I haven’t read it? A little unfair wouldn’t you say? Have you read the articles I linked to?
Comment #3 Maybe it is the standard establishment response. I’m not sure that in my case I could be classified as establishment however. Nor do I think it fair to dismiss what I say simply because of who you imply I am – doesn’t that fall foul of the very point you make. A little hypocritical wouldn’t you say?
However, I don’t see any harm in drawing attention to the criticism of Amsterdam’s PR firm. Does that not enrich the debate? Read the articles if you haven’t already and be humble before casting stones.
Comment #2 Thaksin’s own money? I guess possession is 9/10ths and all that, but tax the free sale of ShinCorp seems a bit cheeky on the tax payer too wouldn’t you agree?
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Well, at least some MA-level research assistant could use his/her rudimentary knowledge of some of the academic literature on Thai politics to earn some additional bucks… They also seems to have an Internet connection!
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
As a graduate of MIT (of Vietnam war vintage who attended MIT in the late 1960’s) and who has been living here in Thailand for 10 years, (and also is Italian) I found particularly interesting the paragraph towards the very end of the interview with Mr. Sopranzetti, namely:
“Part of the Vietnam War’s era of cooperation between the United States and Thailand was urban planning advice. A team from MIT came here in the sixties and drew the first master plan. The objective was to transform Bangkok into a car-based city, by filling up canals and building highways which were going straight into the centre. With these highways, the centre started developing. And the owners of the land wanted to make money fast, so they gave streets to develop. They did not have any street developing methods. They developed mega-blocks with very small soi. This makes public transportation impossible. Either everybody uses a car and the traffic becomes unbearable, or you need a form of transportation that brings you from your home to the bus station, the skytrain station, the offices… and this form of transportation is the motorcycle taxi”
I am almost certain that Mr. Sopranzetti (Claudio) (and some other readers too) have read “Confessioni di un Sicario dell’Economia” (I think the English title is “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” which I believe helps set and understand fairly well “the wider context” for some of the obviously “very wise and forward looking” advice offered to Thailand by that MIT team back in the 1960’s
Hopefully some lessons have been learnt since then and slightly better policy advice is now flowing from (and will be forthcoming in the future) out of both Harvard and MIT.
But of course only “time will tell” whether (for instance) some of the current ideas as to how countries best might deal with and integrate into Globalization and some of its trends and phenomena, will be extremely helpful or equally disastrous.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
I read the 77-page report written by Robert Amsterdam’s PR firm, which was very well written and footnoted. I presume the audience is intended to be international in scope and will target dipolomatic missions around the world. If so, I think it will have the desired effect of putting international pressure on the current regime. I also read the 2Bangkok.com postings about Robert Amsterdam recommended by Mangoboy, and found nothing that would justify the ad hominem attack characterizing him as a discredited stuntman. Seems to me he is behaving quite professionally.
Big questions for Thailand
Tarrin & I agree that the changes needed in our society are so great that to describe them as a revolution is no understatement.
A revolution involves great changes in the way people act, an heightened awareness of their rights (and I would say the rights of Mother Earth) and in their willingness to participate.
The reformism I am advocating is in fact one intended to revolutionize the way people act and to expose the hypocracy of the regime and undermine its legitimacy. Am correct in thinking that the actions of the Assembly of the Poor were along these lines and that they helped the demise of the last Democrat government?
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Mangoboy dismisses without reading it seems. I guess that makes it easier. Just for interest, I entered Thailand last week and noted that Amsterdam’s name remains taped to immigration officer desks. Presumably he isn’t permitted to enter the Kingdom of Orwell.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Mangoboy adopts the standard reponse from the Establishment apologists – just attack the person not the argument. And if that fails start screaming hysterically, calling names etc etc – just like a spoiled kid (come to think of it that about sums up the level of sophistication about Thai politics in the popular media).
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Well, at least Thaksin uses his own money to hire this PR guy.
Meanwhile, the Abhisit’s government use tax’s payer money to hire a lobbyist firm in the U.S. to defend their own actions.
Big questions for Thailand
StanG – 52
I don’t want to draw parallels with holocaust, but wasn’t it basically the same sickening attitude towards the opposition when cold blooded murders do not provoke any negative emotional response anymore? Killing them is like killing mosquitoes.
Its like when you show the sympathy to the 90 death that die during the protest? the irony is there definitely.
Ricky Wand – 51
I advocate using the constitution and laws to redress the current situation and not leaving them to the amnart as neptunian nicely puts it as “Constitution and laws are for general public and international community consumption.”
Using law and constitution to change to way things run can be considered as “reforming”. I don’t think reforming will yield any chance of success when one said has all the power. I think under current situation “revolution” have a better chance to succeed.
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Another reminder of the truly great tragedy: not the coup, but the fact that Thaksin could have really been a reformer and modernizer, with effective, decisive ideas. The missing component was an actual belief in a free and healthy opposition. Thaksin was half reformer, half autocrat. Thailand seems divided between those who want to close one eye or the other.
Lao Studies on the move
With regards to Lao studies, what happens in Thailand is of little significance except that some leftist Thai scholars may be reluctant to present themselves at a Lao forum for the fear of being typecast as a radical. The problems in Thailand are long standing and the Lao have more pressing concerns in-country to focus on. As to the LPRP Politburo, it is looking towards the national congress of the Party and National Assembly elections next year. Lao people just enjoyed watching Thai TV to see some rare individuals get up and publicly criticize the establishment. Lao citizens have better access to the channels of influence so they are not as disenfranchised as their Thai-based kith and kin. I think your references to the Cold War mentality hold more significance with the Thai elite as the military needs to justify its huge increases in spending.