You have no idea who Prawit is and what his opinions are, do you?
And then you go on about academics, research, and facts…
And I deserve derision?
Hmm, never mind.
The argument against red fascism could be that it’s just a stage in Thaksin’s struggle to regain his power. He turned to a strong mass movement ramming its way through the society when everything else has failed.
Oh, and he fashioned his version after the success of PAD!
James,
I agree, there’s generally callous disregard for lives in Thailand, on all sides, but I believe reds have taken it too far. To the point when firing grenades into a crowd of people seems like a normal event, nothing to fret about (and people can be even “pleased”).
Two years ago I remember some justified throwing grenades into PAD tents in the middle of the night, hoping to kill some sleeping people there.
I don’t want to draw parallels with holocaust, but wasn’t it basically the same sickening attitude towards the opposition when cold blooded murders do not provoke any negative emotional response anymore? Killing them is like killing mosquitoes.
Thankyou Tarrin 41 & neptunian 42 for your responses to my comments about the constitution.
From these I think I need to clarify my position. Firstly Tarrin I do not advocate amending the constitution, although this might be desirable on a number of counts.
I advocate using the constitution and laws to redress the current situation and not leaving them to the amnart as neptunian nicely puts it as “Constitution and laws are for general public and international community consumption.”
Active use of the constitution for reform of the law has been the case in the USA for decades and I would suggest more to the good than bad (in the latter category one might cite the recent judgement, of a conservative court, that corporations have the same rights a persons, which opened the flood gates to election buying).
When neptunian writes of the “hierarchal system of govt dominated by the royal / military / elite (read democrats) complex”, that is the regime I would bring down and I suspect neptunian and most of NM’s readers would join in the cheering. Even the much maligned Stan G, as one who repeatedly upholds the rule of law, might join in.
I have mentioned how we might use the constitution as a weapon for progress, rather than leave it to the window dressing the amnart likes. The same may also be true of the lèse majesté law which is entirely obnoxoius when left to the amnart but why use it not turn the fine words and even actions of ther Magesties against the bureaucrats?
For example HM Queen Sirikit often talks of the need to conserve forests and takes an active boidiversity conservation. She is credited with sending the army into the greatest remnant of Teak forest in Thailand in the valley of the Mae Yom Hational Park and yet only last week we saw a campaign orchestrated at both Ministerial level and byt the Governor of Phrae province for the destruction of this priceless piece of the World’s natural heritage.
These acts amount to treating Her Magesty with contempt and why should not an application to the court under the lèse majesté law see the minister and governor in jail?
Claudio Sopranzetti: It is true for those working as guards. The issue of payment for demonstrations is a tricky one. This money is seen as used to pay for a service, in the sense that guards would be paid to be guards, for doing the job. But receiving money to join the demonstration, it seems really odd. 200 baht is probably less than their daily average income. A motorcycle taxi who is in a good spot is making 400-500 baht per day, which converts to 10,000 to 15,000 baht a month. It is a fair amount of money. A university professor told me: they make more money than I do.
For most, all started rather jovial – everyone getting a daily stipend of anywhere from a thousand baht for people on foot, and three to four thousand baht for motorcycles for joining the rallies. A thousand baht is four to five days wages for unskilled labor here in the slums and a bit more in the provinces.
Or were the motor bike taxi drivers paid less than others?
From this interview “motorsai taxi” don’t seem to be ideologically driven and do not care much about dictatorship, ammarts, wealth gap or a dozen of other popular reasons to stage a revolution. Their outlook seems to be very practical, they don’t create mortal enemies and can always be reasoned with.
They also don’t look like they are outraged by the military crackdown or the continuing emergency decree and some suspended rights. They also don’t look like they are going to take arms and go underground.
All those “issues” look like storm in a teacup when you read about these guys.
I believe Dems 2,000 handout was not exactly cash for the poor but means to spur consumption in department stores so that there was a domino effect on suppliers and vendors who could keep their business and jobs going.
So they gave money to those who shop at Centrals and Malls.
Same experience here, the fried chicken in front of Soi Polo (I think the name is Jae Gee) use motocycle taxi for their delivery service, probably even before Pizza Hut start delivering there pizza here in Thailand. I have talked to the owner once and she explained her relationship with them. My conclusion to that is that she might be one of the first people who use the sub-contract business model in delivering service. I noticed that the motorcycle taxi not only for deliver food but also do some advertising once they formed a good relationship with her.
Thank you so much for your support and suggestions.
My study is indeed confined to motorcycle taxi drivers in Bangkok, mostly for reasons of feasibility.
R. Duke #8 and denyzofisarn #10, i would love to hear more about your experiences, could you please send me a mail at [email protected]
Sophie,
Why would soldiers want to haul dead bodies? That is very standard propaganda! You knew the Redshirts didn’t wear red, so would military spies among the protesters. And the missing in action, some may to check with Somdej Hun Sen. This was not 1992 May crackdown. I was there and it was completely different from 2010 Apr-May! They soldiers came and ordered everyone to stripped down to their waists and to lie down on the road, face down. Those who attempt to flee or put any resistance would be gunned. I agree it is difficult for Khun Kanit Na Narong to come to anything conclusive. I believe Khun Na Narong’ ‘war on drug’ cases were more difficult to establish any satisfactory conclusion. Evidence were surprizingly stardardized. Victim lying in pool of blood handgun on his chest.
Perhaps scratch pattern of bullet found in dead body or exited could be compared to the groove pattern of soldier stationed near the killings. A data base of all soldiers’ rifles scratch-groove pattern established. The log of each soldier in the operation should be useful. Model to scale of each killing sites. Conditions of surrounding during the killing determined. Photoes, video, interview comparison and contrast. There might ‘watermelon’ amongst platoon-mate and intelligence within probed. Khun Surachai Thewarat must be forced to cooperate. Btw, Seh Daeng is the missing link to Honest Burglar. Why were all cctvs made useless? Why the smoke screen? Why were protesters not wearing red?
We aren’t on the topic, are we? Except for the lese majeste speeches, AV should declare every park in the country a Hyde Park on Khun Thaksin’s birthday/July 26 and onward. Mr. Takki can fire all his expensive propagandists and H.E. AV can get to his work in winning the hearts .and minds of the Isarn folks. We will kill this bastard when we get our hands on him! Oops.
Does Eric of US mean anything to you?
[…] one once and many use them everyday. Yet we don’t know much about them. New Mandala has an interesting interview of a guy who is writing his dissertation on motorcycle taxis and politics in Thailand. A good read […]
This is a very accurate account of these people from the countryside working as ‘moto sai larp jang’. They were extremely useful during the pre-skytrain and -MRT days. I used to get off the taxi and hopped onto one these ‘mtslj’ if I was caught in a traffic jam. They are useful to-day if you do not want walk from station to your destination or in a great hurry.
There is a sinister side of their lives they may not tell you–drugs. Students are their favourite customers. I was in the school safety business in Bkk.. The network of this black economy is a ‘minefield’. I used to have them arrested somewhere away from my school after a successful recorded sting operation. Ex-police Seri Temivej will a safe person contact for this aspect of the research.
Athita #4 :
I was living (“long time, no short time”) in the Don Muang area at around the time you talk about, and heard rumours such as yours – but often the roles were reversed. I.e. Damapong family where you put Anupong.
Can we believe either ?
This is part of what makes Thailand so fascinating – so much spicey gossip.
As Chris Baker has remarked, we don’t know yet whether Thaksin truly sees himself as the saviour of Thailand – or had
other motives.
WHY did Thaksin take on the mafia to help the taxi-drivers ?
It’s a brilliant Phd topic by this Harvard student, and brings back many nice memories for me of drinking with moto-sai guys.
They were all fans of Bumiphol.
And they were the ones who first introduced me to the thought that perhaps – when the sad day comes that Bumiphol is gone – then a more federal, a more socially just, Siam will emerge reflecting the spirit of the great king Chulalongkorn.
Congratulations to NM and Harvard for giving the “pu noi” – as they were called and much over-looked in May’92, now the “phrai” – their voice.
Martin Rathie – let’s hope the moves forward you and Grant Evans are suggesting can be made.
It’s going to be extremely difficult while something of a siege, anti-Bangkok mentality still seizes much of the Lao grass-roots population, on both sides of the Mekong.
Exceedingly difficult for the Lao Politburo to open up further – more perestoika – until Isaarn’s current alienation is reconciled, at least somewhat. The Politburo is no doubt highly sensitive to the gut feelings of its’ grass-roots.
Andrew Walker’s notion of a more inclusive politics is something both countries need to pursue, more than ever.
It’s not the Korean Peninsula, but there’s still a lot of Cold War legacy, and now recent trouble, to still untangle.
Regards the cheering of the Silom grenades – many reporters just assumed that the cause of the cheering was the grenade attacks; presumably because that’s what they wanted to believe. Several twitter sources who were present at Rajaprasong at the time stated that the grenade attacks weren’t announced on stage, instead people were cheering the court decision, which had been announced just before the attacks occurred.
I’m not sure if Pravit reported that the crowd as a whole cheered, but a “group” of them were pleased about it: http://tinyurl.com/2u5krp5 – Anyway, there’s been a callous disregard for life on all sides. I’m not sure you can single out any particular group here, the polarization breeds hatred and contempt for the other. What’s disturbing is the government, who should be responsible for cooling things down and encouraging air clearing debate seem to take every opportunity to fan the flames. The main problem is the state cannnot assume a neutral role, neither apparently, can the monarchy. A close friend, someone I think of as entirely reasonable and humane, told me he thought Sombat had gone to Rajaprasong on Sunday with “hatred in his heart” and asked “Why do they keep doing this to US?”… that says it all…
You opinion to the UDD is entitled to you, but you can’t use the excuse that “the UDD lied therefore I think people should not have freedom to talk”. You get angry when someone said AV is a murder, but hey some people also get angry when someone said Thaksin is worst than Hitler, people said this thing all the time. People have the right to speak their mind even if it is politically wrong, including the right to talk against freedom of speech.
One thing I wish Claudio would expand upon is the extent of the motrcycle taxi drivers’ connection with the local residents, especially the р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И. In many cases, they are not just drivers and messengers, but take on the role more of a personal assistant, on call running errands for a particular person on a daily basis. At a previous apartment of mine I recall drivers waiting in the lobby bringing random items, anything from noodles to flowers to personal hygiene products, to residents. (Most of the time it was a р╣Ар╕бр╕╡р╕вр╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕в of a р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И – there were several in the building.) Always wondered how that worked, the compensation aspect, but never dared to inquire.
sticking to official figures to maintain a discussion based on facts is ok, but what about the testimonies of dead bodies being carried away by soldiers? what about the reports of missing people?
In a highly propagandised environment like Thailand, truth is a puzzle with many pieces missing.
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Review of Spirits of the Place
Does he read and speak Lao, I wonder? Sounds like French may be enough… to communicate with the spirits of dead anthropologists.
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
This is a fascinating glimpse into the world of the motosai taxi driver. One would never have guessed! Thanks drawing attention to it.
Big questions for Thailand
Pad Boy,
You have no idea who Prawit is and what his opinions are, do you?
And then you go on about academics, research, and facts…
And I deserve derision?
Hmm, never mind.
The argument against red fascism could be that it’s just a stage in Thaksin’s struggle to regain his power. He turned to a strong mass movement ramming its way through the society when everything else has failed.
Oh, and he fashioned his version after the success of PAD!
James,
I agree, there’s generally callous disregard for lives in Thailand, on all sides, but I believe reds have taken it too far. To the point when firing grenades into a crowd of people seems like a normal event, nothing to fret about (and people can be even “pleased”).
Two years ago I remember some justified throwing grenades into PAD tents in the middle of the night, hoping to kill some sleeping people there.
I don’t want to draw parallels with holocaust, but wasn’t it basically the same sickening attitude towards the opposition when cold blooded murders do not provoke any negative emotional response anymore? Killing them is like killing mosquitoes.
Big questions for Thailand
Thankyou Tarrin 41 & neptunian 42 for your responses to my comments about the constitution.
From these I think I need to clarify my position. Firstly Tarrin I do not advocate amending the constitution, although this might be desirable on a number of counts.
I advocate using the constitution and laws to redress the current situation and not leaving them to the amnart as neptunian nicely puts it as “Constitution and laws are for general public and international community consumption.”
Active use of the constitution for reform of the law has been the case in the USA for decades and I would suggest more to the good than bad (in the latter category one might cite the recent judgement, of a conservative court, that corporations have the same rights a persons, which opened the flood gates to election buying).
When neptunian writes of the “hierarchal system of govt dominated by the royal / military / elite (read democrats) complex”, that is the regime I would bring down and I suspect neptunian and most of NM’s readers would join in the cheering. Even the much maligned Stan G, as one who repeatedly upholds the rule of law, might join in.
I have mentioned how we might use the constitution as a weapon for progress, rather than leave it to the window dressing the amnart likes. The same may also be true of the lèse majesté law which is entirely obnoxoius when left to the amnart but why use it not turn the fine words and even actions of ther Magesties against the bureaucrats?
For example HM Queen Sirikit often talks of the need to conserve forests and takes an active boidiversity conservation. She is credited with sending the army into the greatest remnant of Teak forest in Thailand in the valley of the Mae Yom Hational Park and yet only last week we saw a campaign orchestrated at both Ministerial level and byt the Governor of Phrae province for the destruction of this priceless piece of the World’s natural heritage.
These acts amount to treating Her Magesty with contempt and why should not an application to the court under the lèse majesté law see the minister and governor in jail?
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Claudio Sopranzetti: It is true for those working as guards. The issue of payment for demonstrations is a tricky one. This money is seen as used to pay for a service, in the sense that guards would be paid to be guards, for doing the job. But receiving money to join the demonstration, it seems really odd. 200 baht is probably less than their daily average income. A motorcycle taxi who is in a good spot is making 400-500 baht per day, which converts to 10,000 to 15,000 baht a month. It is a fair amount of money. A university professor told me: they make more money than I do.
Payment amounts to the Klong Toey motor bike taxi drivers doesn’t seem to match what Joe Meier said at http://www.economist.com/user/Vichai%2BN/comments
For most, all started rather jovial – everyone getting a daily stipend of anywhere from a thousand baht for people on foot, and three to four thousand baht for motorcycles for joining the rallies. A thousand baht is four to five days wages for unskilled labor here in the slums and a bit more in the provinces.
Or were the motor bike taxi drivers paid less than others?
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
From this interview “motorsai taxi” don’t seem to be ideologically driven and do not care much about dictatorship, ammarts, wealth gap or a dozen of other popular reasons to stage a revolution. Their outlook seems to be very practical, they don’t create mortal enemies and can always be reasoned with.
They also don’t look like they are outraged by the military crackdown or the continuing emergency decree and some suspended rights. They also don’t look like they are going to take arms and go underground.
All those “issues” look like storm in a teacup when you read about these guys.
I believe Dems 2,000 handout was not exactly cash for the poor but means to spur consumption in department stores so that there was a domino effect on suppliers and vendors who could keep their business and jobs going.
So they gave money to those who shop at Centrals and Malls.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Everything you need to know about questionable and discredited lobbyist/PR stuntman Robert Amsterdam:
http://www.2bangkok.com/10/RobertAmsterdam.shtml#lobbyist
http://www.borba.rs/eng/content/view/5542/123/
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
R Duke – 8
Same experience here, the fried chicken in front of Soi Polo (I think the name is Jae Gee) use motocycle taxi for their delivery service, probably even before Pizza Hut start delivering there pizza here in Thailand. I have talked to the owner once and she explained her relationship with them. My conclusion to that is that she might be one of the first people who use the sub-contract business model in delivering service. I noticed that the motorcycle taxi not only for deliver food but also do some advertising once they formed a good relationship with her.
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Thank you so much for your support and suggestions.
My study is indeed confined to motorcycle taxi drivers in Bangkok, mostly for reasons of feasibility.
R. Duke #8 and denyzofisarn #10, i would love to hear more about your experiences, could you please send me a mail at [email protected]
Thank you again.
Freedom of expression in Thailand
Sophie,
Why would soldiers want to haul dead bodies? That is very standard propaganda! You knew the Redshirts didn’t wear red, so would military spies among the protesters. And the missing in action, some may to check with Somdej Hun Sen. This was not 1992 May crackdown. I was there and it was completely different from 2010 Apr-May! They soldiers came and ordered everyone to stripped down to their waists and to lie down on the road, face down. Those who attempt to flee or put any resistance would be gunned. I agree it is difficult for Khun Kanit Na Narong to come to anything conclusive. I believe Khun Na Narong’ ‘war on drug’ cases were more difficult to establish any satisfactory conclusion. Evidence were surprizingly stardardized. Victim lying in pool of blood handgun on his chest.
Perhaps scratch pattern of bullet found in dead body or exited could be compared to the groove pattern of soldier stationed near the killings. A data base of all soldiers’ rifles scratch-groove pattern established. The log of each soldier in the operation should be useful. Model to scale of each killing sites. Conditions of surrounding during the killing determined. Photoes, video, interview comparison and contrast. There might ‘watermelon’ amongst platoon-mate and intelligence within probed. Khun Surachai Thewarat must be forced to cooperate. Btw, Seh Daeng is the missing link to Honest Burglar. Why were all cctvs made useless? Why the smoke screen? Why were protesters not wearing red?
We aren’t on the topic, are we? Except for the lese majeste speeches, AV should declare every park in the country a Hyde Park on Khun Thaksin’s birthday/July 26 and onward. Mr. Takki can fire all his expensive propagandists and H.E. AV can get to his work in winning the hearts .and minds of the Isarn folks. We will kill this bastard when we get our hands on him! Oops.
Does Eric of US mean anything to you?
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
[…] Mandala propose une interessante interview d’un gars qui prepare un essai sur les moto-taxis et la politique en Thailande. Un excellent […]
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
[…] one once and many use them everyday. Yet we don’t know much about them. New Mandala has an interesting interview of a guy who is writing his dissertation on motorcycle taxis and politics in Thailand. A good read […]
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
This is a very accurate account of these people from the countryside working as ‘moto sai larp jang’. They were extremely useful during the pre-skytrain and -MRT days. I used to get off the taxi and hopped onto one these ‘mtslj’ if I was caught in a traffic jam. They are useful to-day if you do not want walk from station to your destination or in a great hurry.
There is a sinister side of their lives they may not tell you–drugs. Students are their favourite customers. I was in the school safety business in Bkk.. The network of this black economy is a ‘minefield’. I used to have them arrested somewhere away from my school after a successful recorded sting operation. Ex-police Seri Temivej will a safe person contact for this aspect of the research.
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Athita #4 :
I was living (“long time, no short time”) in the Don Muang area at around the time you talk about, and heard rumours such as yours – but often the roles were reversed. I.e. Damapong family where you put Anupong.
Can we believe either ?
This is part of what makes Thailand so fascinating – so much spicey gossip.
As Chris Baker has remarked, we don’t know yet whether Thaksin truly sees himself as the saviour of Thailand – or had
other motives.
WHY did Thaksin take on the mafia to help the taxi-drivers ?
It’s a brilliant Phd topic by this Harvard student, and brings back many nice memories for me of drinking with moto-sai guys.
They were all fans of Bumiphol.
And they were the ones who first introduced me to the thought that perhaps – when the sad day comes that Bumiphol is gone – then a more federal, a more socially just, Siam will emerge reflecting the spirit of the great king Chulalongkorn.
Congratulations to NM and Harvard for giving the “pu noi” – as they were called and much over-looked in May’92, now the “phrai” – their voice.
Lao Studies on the move
Martin Rathie – let’s hope the moves forward you and Grant Evans are suggesting can be made.
It’s going to be extremely difficult while something of a siege, anti-Bangkok mentality still seizes much of the Lao grass-roots population, on both sides of the Mekong.
Exceedingly difficult for the Lao Politburo to open up further – more perestoika – until Isaarn’s current alienation is reconciled, at least somewhat. The Politburo is no doubt highly sensitive to the gut feelings of its’ grass-roots.
Andrew Walker’s notion of a more inclusive politics is something both countries need to pursue, more than ever.
It’s not the Korean Peninsula, but there’s still a lot of Cold War legacy, and now recent trouble, to still untangle.
Big questions for Thailand
Regards the cheering of the Silom grenades – many reporters just assumed that the cause of the cheering was the grenade attacks; presumably because that’s what they wanted to believe. Several twitter sources who were present at Rajaprasong at the time stated that the grenade attacks weren’t announced on stage, instead people were cheering the court decision, which had been announced just before the attacks occurred.
I’m not sure if Pravit reported that the crowd as a whole cheered, but a “group” of them were pleased about it: http://tinyurl.com/2u5krp5 – Anyway, there’s been a callous disregard for life on all sides. I’m not sure you can single out any particular group here, the polarization breeds hatred and contempt for the other. What’s disturbing is the government, who should be responsible for cooling things down and encouraging air clearing debate seem to take every opportunity to fan the flames. The main problem is the state cannnot assume a neutral role, neither apparently, can the monarchy. A close friend, someone I think of as entirely reasonable and humane, told me he thought Sombat had gone to Rajaprasong on Sunday with “hatred in his heart” and asked “Why do they keep doing this to US?”… that says it all…
Freedom of expression in Thailand
denyzofisarn – 14
You opinion to the UDD is entitled to you, but you can’t use the excuse that “the UDD lied therefore I think people should not have freedom to talk”. You get angry when someone said AV is a murder, but hey some people also get angry when someone said Thaksin is worst than Hitler, people said this thing all the time. People have the right to speak their mind even if it is politically wrong, including the right to talk against freedom of speech.
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Very interesting. Thank you.
One thing I wish Claudio would expand upon is the extent of the motrcycle taxi drivers’ connection with the local residents, especially the р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И. In many cases, they are not just drivers and messengers, but take on the role more of a personal assistant, on call running errands for a particular person on a daily basis. At a previous apartment of mine I recall drivers waiting in the lobby bringing random items, anything from noodles to flowers to personal hygiene products, to residents. (Most of the time it was a р╣Ар╕бр╕╡р╕вр╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕в of a р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И – there were several in the building.) Always wondered how that worked, the compensation aspect, but never dared to inquire.
I look forward to reading the dissertation.
Freedom of expression in Thailand
michael #15:
sticking to official figures to maintain a discussion based on facts is ok, but what about the testimonies of dead bodies being carried away by soldiers? what about the reports of missing people?
In a highly propagandised environment like Thailand, truth is a puzzle with many pieces missing.
Interview with Claudio Sopranzetti: The politics of motorcycle taxis
Thanks for this. Genuinely fascinating. Talk about seeing the world in a grain of sand!