Oversimplification is an issue in almost any discussion of worthy events. The issue of vote buying, as currently posted, seems to be accepted as a general across-the-board phenomenon but in fact there are multiple rationales among the public that either prompt or allow vote buying. Many people I have seen openly admit taking money have said they will end up voting for who they want and still take the bribe. This is one reason why political parties try to set up monitoring methods to make sure their money is wisely spent.
To say that things that are demeaning in your own country are OK if they are done in a third world country is very wrong. So if you would fight against it in, for example, in Australia, would you then say it’s just part of the culture of another country so is acceptable?
Andrew gives two examples. First is vote buying, and later includes paid demonstrators, and the second is a hint of some form of prostitution. Now I have no idea what Andrew’s views are of the latter becoming more common in his own country, but would he support vote buying in the next Australian general election?
Let me throw in an example. Would he argue about female genital mutilation in Somalia being acceptable there, but not in his home country. In Somalia there are cultural and religious arguments for it. Just like Andrew tries to justify vote buying in Thailand the same could be done for the evil that is female genital mutilation.
Andrew, it’s time to call a spade a spade. If you are going to travel the path of supporting the pro-Thaksin movement, be honest and say that’s what you are doing. Just say you are supporting this warlord from class 11 against this other warlord from class whatever, but don’t pretend it’s something it ain’t.
StanG #78 re :
“crux of the matter is whether reds are a genuine grass roots movement or they have been simply recruited into Thaksin’s war either by offers of money, sweet talk or outright propaganda, like they recruit armies for African “revolutions”.
Or like the 13 American colonies ??!!
Washington was one of the richest men in America, slaves fought in his armies, and there’s still debate over to what extent his revolutionaries were a minority, as revolutionaries so often are !!
Again, instead of burying your proverbial head in the sand and pretending that social stereotypes do not exist and those who make them should be ignored, how about making an effort to educate and change the very root causes of these stereotypes? Again, anyone who is ignoring vote buying and now I’ll add the sex trade are not against its detrimental effects on the society and culture. Such a conservative country Thailand is, with such a flourishing sex & drug trade…very ironic.
To those that blindly follow the Red propaganda, this may be gospel, but to those on the sidelines, unaligned to any colour like the majority based on latest poll figures, this is absolutely groundless and without any substantial base of fact.
So, to those who say these virtues do not exist or try and say “the Yellow’s did it first” let me say, you are NOT helping the situation.
[…] insightful argument from the guys at New Mandala: One again, the complexity of human relationships and motivations is ignored. The commentators’ […]
I lived in rural Chaiyaphum,and can verify (along with my wife,neighbours and all in the village) that “vote buying” was alive and florishing well before Thaksin arrived on the scene.In fact,according to my wife and her friends,the other parties paid even more than Thaksin.Why this “vote buying” is allways directed at Thaksin is a mystery.I suppose though its just sour grapes on the loser’s behalf.
[Nice try Chris. The quote in the article, from a villager in Pattani, is “There’s a rumour that Isan will declare independence this coming October. Is it true?” AW]
Nick #282 :
Thanks very much for that information and perspective.
Good to read that Thai journalist are maintaining their high standards of integrity, and their typically Thai co-operative working practices – even if editorial standards seem to have declined and become more propagandist (this reversal of the opening up following May’92 first became very blatant during Thaksin’s premierships, it seems).
Some people possibly getting paid a few hundred (even thousand) baht to risk being killed by army/sniper sure sounds demeaning to me.
(as does a country whose poorest are forced to sell their daughters)
What sort of country have Thailand’s rulers built ?
(those in charge over the last several decades, and those that helped them get in/stay in power, should hang your heads in shame)
btw, like I said in the other thread – The simple way to eliminate voter buying as a possible excuse for why the team of the ‘right’ colour cannot win elections is to allow international organisations to scritinize, or run, the elections.
What did you expect from such a high corrupted country where legal enforcement is so weak? I expected conspiracy theory may be useful to explain about political problems in Thailand. Everyone got dirty hands.
I think some research may right in blaming this country have been in the sin of crony system which was associated with high corruption and weak legal enforcement. CPI index or BII index may not blind you that Thailand is one of the worst countries around the world according to corruption. If you travel to Thailand, At least, you may get caught by the police who have offered you a bribe.
The crux of the matter is whether reds are a genuine grass roots movement or they have been simply recruited into Thaksin’s war either by offers of money, sweet talk or outright propaganda, like they recruit armies for African “revolutions”.
Just find a lot of people with grievances and sell them the dream of freedom and a better life if they join your cause. Then you can march them on the capital.
Why don\’t yellows stop complaining about the \”people who accepts bribes for votes\” and get on with the business of buying those same votes so they ~the chosen party~ can finally win a national majority and install a government with electoral legitimacy ?
End of story. End of whining. Then we can all get back to business and all is good in the world.
I mean really why the bleating when all you have to do is open the door and walk through it.?
This ‘vote buying’ banter is a convenient distraction IMO.
If there is genuine concern about it, then why not allow international electoral observers to scrutinize, or even run the elections?
Make it a reconcilation proposal!
Otherwise one side will always be accused of vote buying, and the other side accused of relying on a ‘compromised’ judiciary & draconian laws to make sure any party of the wrong color can have have their victory anulled (as & when required).
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Launch of Ji Ungpakorn’s new book
I don’t know if this is being recorded but it’s worth keeping an eye on http://www.lse.ac.uk/resources/podcasts/publicLecturesAndEvents.htm – this is where the LSE post podcasts of their public lectures
“How can I get a copy?”
Have a look at his wdpress blog; he has his contact details there. If you’re in Thailand, you can get a copy sent in a week or so.
Sex, love and vote-buying
Les,
You wrote “Time to call a spade a spade”.
Spot on.
Launch of Ji Ungpakorn’s new book
How can I get a copy?
Sex, love and vote-buying
Oversimplification is an issue in almost any discussion of worthy events. The issue of vote buying, as currently posted, seems to be accepted as a general across-the-board phenomenon but in fact there are multiple rationales among the public that either prompt or allow vote buying. Many people I have seen openly admit taking money have said they will end up voting for who they want and still take the bribe. This is one reason why political parties try to set up monitoring methods to make sure their money is wisely spent.
Sex, love and vote-buying
To say that things that are demeaning in your own country are OK if they are done in a third world country is very wrong. So if you would fight against it in, for example, in Australia, would you then say it’s just part of the culture of another country so is acceptable?
Andrew gives two examples. First is vote buying, and later includes paid demonstrators, and the second is a hint of some form of prostitution. Now I have no idea what Andrew’s views are of the latter becoming more common in his own country, but would he support vote buying in the next Australian general election?
Let me throw in an example. Would he argue about female genital mutilation in Somalia being acceptable there, but not in his home country. In Somalia there are cultural and religious arguments for it. Just like Andrew tries to justify vote buying in Thailand the same could be done for the evil that is female genital mutilation.
Andrew, it’s time to call a spade a spade. If you are going to travel the path of supporting the pro-Thaksin movement, be honest and say that’s what you are doing. Just say you are supporting this warlord from class 11 against this other warlord from class whatever, but don’t pretend it’s something it ain’t.
Launch of Ji Ungpakorn’s new book
The book’s cover page is colorful, good taste, unique and outstanding!
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
Thitinan has a well-balanced comment/ analysis on funding of protests @ :
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/182455/the-politics-of-funding-the-red-shirts-protest
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
StanG #78 re :
“crux of the matter is whether reds are a genuine grass roots movement or they have been simply recruited into Thaksin’s war either by offers of money, sweet talk or outright propaganda, like they recruit armies for African “revolutions”.
Or like the 13 American colonies ??!!
Washington was one of the richest men in America, slaves fought in his armies, and there’s still debate over to what extent his revolutionaries were a minority, as revolutionaries so often are !!
Sex, love and vote-buying
Andrew,
Again, instead of burying your proverbial head in the sand and pretending that social stereotypes do not exist and those who make them should be ignored, how about making an effort to educate and change the very root causes of these stereotypes? Again, anyone who is ignoring vote buying and now I’ll add the sex trade are not against its detrimental effects on the society and culture. Such a conservative country Thailand is, with such a flourishing sex & drug trade…very ironic.
To those that blindly follow the Red propaganda, this may be gospel, but to those on the sidelines, unaligned to any colour like the majority based on latest poll figures, this is absolutely groundless and without any substantial base of fact.
So, to those who say these virtues do not exist or try and say “the Yellow’s did it first” let me say, you are NOT helping the situation.
Sex, love and vote-buying
[…] insightful argument from the guys at New Mandala: One again, the complexity of human relationships and motivations is ignored. The commentators’ […]
Sex, love and vote-buying
I lived in rural Chaiyaphum,and can verify (along with my wife,neighbours and all in the village) that “vote buying” was alive and florishing well before Thaksin arrived on the scene.In fact,according to my wife and her friends,the other parties paid even more than Thaksin.Why this “vote buying” is allways directed at Thaksin is a mystery.I suppose though its just sour grapes on the loser’s behalf.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
“Isaarn will secede in October” @ :
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/39243/the-breaking-up-of-a-country
[Nice try Chris. The quote in the article, from a villager in Pattani, is “There’s a rumour that Isan will declare independence this coming October. Is it true?” AW]
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Nick #282 :
Thanks very much for that information and perspective.
Good to read that Thai journalist are maintaining their high standards of integrity, and their typically Thai co-operative working practices – even if editorial standards seem to have declined and become more propagandist (this reversal of the opening up following May’92 first became very blatant during Thaksin’s premierships, it seems).
Sex, love and vote-buying
Some people possibly getting paid a few hundred (even thousand) baht to risk being killed by army/sniper sure sounds demeaning to me.
(as does a country whose poorest are forced to sell their daughters)
What sort of country have Thailand’s rulers built ?
(those in charge over the last several decades, and those that helped them get in/stay in power, should hang your heads in shame)
btw, like I said in the other thread – The simple way to eliminate voter buying as a possible excuse for why the team of the ‘right’ colour cannot win elections is to allow international organisations to scritinize, or run, the elections.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
What did you expect from such a high corrupted country where legal enforcement is so weak? I expected conspiracy theory may be useful to explain about political problems in Thailand. Everyone got dirty hands.
I think some research may right in blaming this country have been in the sin of crony system which was associated with high corruption and weak legal enforcement. CPI index or BII index may not blind you that Thailand is one of the worst countries around the world according to corruption. If you travel to Thailand, At least, you may get caught by the police who have offered you a bribe.
Sex, love and vote-buying
You can pay some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not pay all of the people all of the time.
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
If Thais themselves can’t catch their rivals for vote buying, what chances the international observers would have?
It’s not like there’s a lack of complaints after every elections.
Final transactions at the end of the chain are impossible to prove and bigger deals up the chain are impossible to see.
What’s the purpose of international observers presence other than legitimizing all the shenanigans simply because they had no capacity to see them?
Say there are ten million people who are subjected to vote buying one way or another. What if it’s “only” five million?
How many observers do you need to effectively monitor them?
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
The crux of the matter is whether reds are a genuine grass roots movement or they have been simply recruited into Thaksin’s war either by offers of money, sweet talk or outright propaganda, like they recruit armies for African “revolutions”.
Just find a lot of people with grievances and sell them the dream of freedom and a better life if they join your cause. Then you can march them on the capital.
They’d do just fine as long as they believe.
Sex, love and vote-buying
Why don\’t yellows stop complaining about the \”people who accepts bribes for votes\” and get on with the business of buying those same votes so they ~the chosen party~ can finally win a national majority and install a government with electoral legitimacy ?
End of story. End of whining. Then we can all get back to business and all is good in the world.
I mean really why the bleating when all you have to do is open the door and walk through it.?
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
This ‘vote buying’ banter is a convenient distraction IMO.
If there is genuine concern about it, then why not allow international electoral observers to scrutinize, or even run the elections?
Make it a reconcilation proposal!
Otherwise one side will always be accused of vote buying, and the other side accused of relying on a ‘compromised’ judiciary & draconian laws to make sure any party of the wrong color can have have their victory anulled (as & when required).