Actually I want Andrew to answer your question rather, but you made one point that I has been asking almost every time when I start discussing about politic in Thailand.
Andrew refuses to even acknowledge the question of vote buying swaying national elections, is he refusing to acknowledge it as a factor of Thai politics?
Now, I think the reason why Andrew asked your question was not because he didn’t acknowledge it, but rather, to see whether the whole “vote buying” issue is even making sense and logical. You have been claiming that vote buying is a degrading factor in Thailand politic, but you didn’t even know how the whole thing works, so how did you get into conclusion that it is actually the case?
Filtered out the “illogical” information is as important as acknowledging it.
but if you spend this money to run a “democracy” school where you teach people to die for the cause or on a TV station where they rally the crowds to sacrifice their lives you get exactly what you wanted – spending money so that people die for whatever you want.
Ah, I know exactly who actually did that, this one is a find example.
That would be if the Thaksin loyalists still had majority, but they do not hold the majority of seats regardless, which means they will in fact need that local support.
So, I guess the topic of vote buying is ignored, hmmm…Andrew refuses to even acknowledge the question of vote buying swaying national elections, is he refusing to acknowledge it as a factor of Thai politics?
Its like the Thai professor Thongchai says about certain information being ignored to see what we want to see.
Red Siam is more interesting. Did they stick it out until the end or had they already left due to disagreements with the UDD leadership. I seem to remember them leaving.
Politically does it include Giles and the Troskyists and does it claim to be a revolutionary group? I see they say they are moving on from democratic reformism to democratic revolution. I get slightly worried about the later when it comes from the likes of Pol Pot or operates in places like North Korea. The misuse of the word democratic by some of the left really starts with Lenin’s idea of democratic centralism and all the anti-democratic organizations that has given us.
George Soros and the Burmese pro-democracy movements. That’s good, but unless you could show that demonstrators were receiving some of the Soros money to attend protests it doesn’t answer the questions.
I will leave it to others to look for differences in aims between Soros and Shinawatra. In the meantime let me just repeat the question one more time.
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
Interesting, Haym Solomon. Now just guessing, was the revolutionary army being paid and was Haym Solomon financing it? That’s getting pretty close even if it was such a long time ago. Then again there are certainly big differences between the Washington’s revolutionary army and the UDD movement.
Going this far back maybe does bring an example though. If anyone could prove that tea smugglers paid any of the mob at the Boston Tea Party we would be on the right track. There must be something more recent surely though.
Yes, red shirts many find raisers and they announced big donations on stage but it is peanuts comparing to the actual costs.
DSI chief yesterday said in an interview that out of 150 bil mentioned in the media he believes 10 bil were related to financing the protest. Even if goes down to 1 billion it’s still A LOT more than the money raised by the reds themselves.
Somsak here gave his own estimation not long time ago and, if I remember correctly, reds “big” donations wouldn’t cover even the cost of guards for one day.
Another point I think is being missed by a couple of commentators here is that money spent is not only cash given to people to attend or vote a certain way.
Yes, it’s true that no one would die for the money, but if you spend this money to run a “democracy” school where you teach people to die for the cause or on a TV station where they rally the crowds to sacrifice their lives you get exactly what you wanted – spending money so that people die for whatever you want.
Some might point to George Soros as the billionaire behind the protest in Burma. I have no doubts the protests were completely legitimate, but Soros definitely has funnelled money towards Burma’s democracy movement.
“paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?”
I guess it would be legit for paid demonstrators to protest for a feudal system where a group of elites or wannabe elites dictate who should rule and make up laws as they go along to maintain control. No where else in the world would this “we are for feudal system” protest be carried out, so I guess It makes Less Abby “yellows” unique and legit – no precedent to judge with.
anusorn unno makes a good comment…I am researching in Thailand at present on this and related issues and I can say categorically that folk were not paid for going to these events because it came from their hearts – the issues for majority peoples are not flippant but at the core of addresing double standrads, social injustice and in claims for political inclusion. However, many guards brought in were paid a small daily per diems. Donations came from a wide range of interests, and PTV 24 hour broadcasts at Rajprasong via satellite link were running mesages giving deposit numbers for donations. As AW says, there is nothing unusual about this and the state’s fixation on trying to link everything back to Thaksin is weak and its reasons should be clear to err…even Blind Harry et al (?)
Firstly, some local voices : These are summaries as part of a longer piece in Thai entitled: “Open the mind and listen to red shirts: why have to come and bear hardship like this”? (р╣Ар╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╣Гр╕Ир╕Яр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З ‘р╕Чр╕│р╣Др╕б р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕ер╕│р╕Ър╕▓р╕Бр╕ер╕│р╕Ър╕Щр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Вр╕Щр╕▓р╕Фр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й’) Ms Suchada Praphanwong (р╕кр╕╕р╕Кр╕▓р╕Ор╕▓ р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╣Мр╕зр╕Зр╕ир╣М) in Matichon online (interview with five Red Shirt demonstrators gathering at Rajprasong), 24 April 2010 (see reproduced in http://thaienews.blogspot.com/2010/04/blog-post_3159.html)
[Informant “A”, rural male, Northeast Thailand]
…we did not elect this government; the poor have been left out
for 4 years; we have to put up with the power this government seized from the people. Today we must rise-up and fight for our rights that have been taken away from us; this is to ask for democracy that can help people to be able to “open their eyes and their mouths” and to know that their rights and their votes are important. This enables us to have rice to eat (lit. “Having rice to put in a pot”, [р╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Бр╕лр╕бр╣Йр╕н]); even villagers who have little education understand that they have equal rights to access state welfare and support… But poor folk never have access to this in their life and once they started to have these benefits (under Thaksin’s policies) – it was later taken away (under the current regime). When they are sick and want to see a doctor and have no money the (state subsidised) Baht 30 card was used but this is now no longer valid for us (it now only applies in practice to those with salaries).
The Democrat Party changed the guidelines to make it more
difficult for villagers to access this support (even the burden of basic school fees which the current regime said would be free). The OTOP Centre (which was made successful under Thaksin as a marketing mechanism for local sub-districts around the country) now stands as a museum. The money we used to borrow without interest is no
longer possible: we have no salary and therefore cannot borrow from the bank (Thaksin used to work with the Savings Bank to ensure low interest loans for poor folk and establish Baht one-million scheme for all villages).
The Red Shirts do not expect Thaksin to come back and govern the country – it could be anyone who does not ignore the plight of the poor (majority peoples), and who do not push us down to the ground and who do not see the people as “robbers” (the implication here is that elitist propaganda represented poor rural and urban folk in the past four years as being given special economic and social benefits and hence disturbed the power equation during Thaksin’s time). Red Shirts come out now to show that we still exist…
[Informant “B”] female, 45 years of age, from Bangsue, Bangkok, Ms Woranut Chiangsaai (р╕зр╕гр╕Щр╕╕р╕К р╣Ар╕Кр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕кр╕▓р╕в), nine years basic education; street vendor years basic education; street vendor selling leather-ware with a stall at Jatujak Market; daughter of soldier. Woranut was sponsoring food for red Shirts at a cost of Baht 5-6,000 per month:
…I feel good doing this. No one encouraged me to come – but I wanted to see with my own eyes. Core (Red) leaders did not ask women and children to surround the group (as the Yellow Shirts/PAD did previously and the media tried to make out). But we understand the villagers are in trouble. The people survive if the nation survives. I want Thaksin to come back. But, if he cannot come back I hope a new leader can take care of the poor and solve the drug problem (there are indications of a massive increase in drug addiction over the past few years and its easy availability on the streets). I have to thank Thaksin for getting my three children out of drug addiction… In regard to a question on Thaksin and the Monarchy: …there is no comparison: we expected Thaksin to lead the country (as an elected political leader) but of course the king is above our heads. We want the current government out because, apart from deterioration in the economy, the PM acts opposite to the way to talks (hypocritical). He makes people hate each other. Even though I’m just a street vendor, without much education I know it is not right for the army to shoot people. In the news we heard that it was only red Shirts hurting the soldiers. How can the PM who is leader of the country continue to be like this? Or maybe he thinks we are not humans? A PM should be elected by the people through the party; but in this case they just chose from among themselves: this is not right. We did not mark (vote) for the Democrat Party to run the country. Now the economy has “fallen down”…If the government wants to get rid of people why not just call us all together and use a large bomb; if they don’t value us as citizens…
END trans. (my comments in parentheses)
In a reply to Andrew as to how I know how the people in my village voted, and whether their actions should be judged as being immoral. I have lived in my ethnic Shan (Tai) village for over 25 years, and am related to scores of villagers. I have also employed many more. We talk together (in Tai and Kum Muang) openly and freely. There have been many elections over the years, and as anusorn states, people usually accept money from the canvassers of the candidates that they intend to vote for anyway. Morality is not an issue for most, though I know a handfull of people who do not accept bribes for their vote. The system is so entrenched that it is viewed as normal. The people I know well are very honest. They willingly tell me the names of the candidate buying votes and who they voted for. A simple justification is that both sides are buying so why not take the money? Some take money from both sides. They are not so blinded by a purple note that they lose sight of the motives of the candidates. Unfortunately the subsequent recouping of the investment is also seen as normal behaviour for elected officials. With larger amounts of the central budget coming into TAOs, the opportunity for local corruption has grown. The infamous TAO roads, which can be scratched away with a fingernail, illustrate this well. Things move up a notch when active politicians switch parties. TRT perfected this with reports of 30-50 million baht pricetags. Our local MP jumped to Taksin’s camp. I have no idea if Newin was paid to switch and/or had other motives.
The system is obviously deeply flawed and the next general election has the potential to be the dirtiest, most expensive ever. The stakes are very high and judging by the amount spent on financing protest movements, a clean election free of vote and MP buying is impossible. As for the PADs alternative to the flawed democratic system… I prefer to trust the morally challenged electorate.
Make it even easier Andrew. Don’t limit it to Burma. Where else in the world over the entire history of man has a legitimate pro-democracy movement been funded almost only by one billionaire and his family? I’m sure there must be at least one or two, isn’t there? If not we must be in a unique situation.
It’s time you acquaint yourself with a gentleman who was known as Haym Solomon.
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
OK the question has been up for more than 24 hours and no answers. If there is no answer I guess that means one of two things.
Either the 2009/2010 UDD rally in Thailand is unique or the red shirts are not a legitimate pro-democracy movement. Maybe my logic is flawed and you are welcome to question it, but you should answer the question first.
simon #31,
Just to add to the very long list already compiled by nganadeeleg I would also add the half appointed senate.
And be warned, the propaganda has just started, the re-education in high schools of students commenced on Monday with visits by the “thought headmasters” as the Thai kids call them, paying a visit to my daughter’s high school. And when the students had the temerity to challenge these conveyers of propaganda, the students were told to be silent.
And then look at the make-up of the so-called reconciliation committee just announced by the government. How can you reconcile anything when it’s totally stacked with government supporters?
Andrew has a valid point, with the government spending billions of baht on “re-education and reconciliation” why wouldn’t the UDD, who happen to be tax payers, be rather angry about enquires into where their money comes from. Unless Thailand goes across to the Australian model of tax payer sponsored campaigning, with total accountability, then it should be open slather for any party to solicit donations from anywhere and anyone.
[…] story, carried over on Pratachai as well as New Mandala, is a gripping, must-read account of one photojournalist’s encounter with the family of a […]
I think the issue is framed too narrowly and is highly reduced.
First of all, vote buying in Thailand is far more complex than what we are discussing. It is part of socio-political relations. Voters receive money from almost all candidates and it does not go that who pays the most wins. In most cases, candidates pay the same rate. It is up to the voters’ decision in which existing socio-political and economic relations play a crucial role. Sometimes there is no guarantee for the vote buyers that every baht they pay will do a return. In addition, vote canvassers choose who they will buy their votes. Sometimes it is clear that someone cannot be bought regardless of the money they pay due to his/her political alliance. It is a waste of money to buy vote from such a person. To say that money speaks for everything is to ignore the complexity of vote buying and, in this case, the motivation of the red shirts who were paid for participating in the rally. There are other factors at play in their making a decision to join the rally.
Second, although it is true that during the first days of the rally most protesters were from the provinces, it is found that later and especially when the rally gained momemtum, it is those working and living in Bangkok and adjacent provinces who constituted the majority of the protesters – the fact that is found even by the CRES. These people are not Bangkokians by origin. They are from the provinces seeking economic opportunities in Bangkok and other major cities. They worked during the day and joined the rally in the evening until late at night. Importantly, these protesters came on their own without being organized. As such, they were not paid for participating in the rally. Two middle-aged women who work as cleaning staff at a company in Silom told me they came to Rajaprasong everyday after work and the first question one of them asked me is “Has Nattawut given a speech on the stage yet?” Money has nothing to do with these “Mae Yok.”
Third, it was always publicly announced on the stage who donated what. There is nothing to hide about this. Those who made donations are wide ranging – ranging from local politicians and leaders and businessmen to government officials and ordinary people. Donations included not only money but also food, water, drugs, and other necessities. In addition, it is quite common to see individual donors drive pickup truck loaded with food and give it away to their fellow protesters. This is not to mention the fact that some protesters raised funds by holding religious rituals like “Pha Pa” for the expenses of joining the rally. To focus solely on money from politicians and make it identical to vote buying is to be blind to the complexity of how resources were mobilized in the rally.
Andrew raised a good point and I get it. However, the more the comments go, the more the issue is narrowed and reduced. Although it is true that many protesters were “paid” to participate in the rally, it is almost imposssible to comprehend the phenomenon unless the cmplexities I mentioned above is taken into account.
StanG – # 45 :
“there will be no coup”, etc.
You’ve been proved the most accurate by history, leading up to and post Ratchaprasong so far – congratulations.
Your comments always greatly appreciated.
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Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
Colin – 33
Actually I want Andrew to answer your question rather, but you made one point that I has been asking almost every time when I start discussing about politic in Thailand.
Andrew refuses to even acknowledge the question of vote buying swaying national elections, is he refusing to acknowledge it as a factor of Thai politics?
Now, I think the reason why Andrew asked your question was not because he didn’t acknowledge it, but rather, to see whether the whole “vote buying” issue is even making sense and logical. You have been claiming that vote buying is a degrading factor in Thailand politic, but you didn’t even know how the whole thing works, so how did you get into conclusion that it is actually the case?
Filtered out the “illogical” information is as important as acknowledging it.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
StanG – 48
but if you spend this money to run a “democracy” school where you teach people to die for the cause or on a TV station where they rally the crowds to sacrifice their lives you get exactly what you wanted – spending money so that people die for whatever you want.
Ah, I know exactly who actually did that, this one is a find example.
http://board.postjung.com/481304.html
Hope you understand Thai.
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It is her aura of power, spreading out like a mandala from her head.
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
StanG,
That would be if the Thaksin loyalists still had majority, but they do not hold the majority of seats regardless, which means they will in fact need that local support.
So, I guess the topic of vote buying is ignored, hmmm…Andrew refuses to even acknowledge the question of vote buying swaying national elections, is he refusing to acknowledge it as a factor of Thai politics?
Its like the Thai professor Thongchai says about certain information being ignored to see what we want to see.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Tarrin – 34
Red Siam is more interesting. Did they stick it out until the end or had they already left due to disagreements with the UDD leadership. I seem to remember them leaving.
Politically does it include Giles and the Troskyists and does it claim to be a revolutionary group? I see they say they are moving on from democratic reformism to democratic revolution. I get slightly worried about the later when it comes from the likes of Pol Pot or operates in places like North Korea. The misuse of the word democratic by some of the left really starts with Lenin’s idea of democratic centralism and all the anti-democratic organizations that has given us.
The return of Thailand’s old friend
Why would they want to authorize another coup, when the coup they already approved is still ongoing?
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
aiontay – 47
George Soros and the Burmese pro-democracy movements. That’s good, but unless you could show that demonstrators were receiving some of the Soros money to attend protests it doesn’t answer the questions.
I will leave it to others to look for differences in aims between Soros and Shinawatra. In the meantime let me just repeat the question one more time.
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Lleij Samuel Schwartz – 43
Interesting, Haym Solomon. Now just guessing, was the revolutionary army being paid and was Haym Solomon financing it? That’s getting pretty close even if it was such a long time ago. Then again there are certainly big differences between the Washington’s revolutionary army and the UDD movement.
Going this far back maybe does bring an example though. If anyone could prove that tea smugglers paid any of the mob at the Boston Tea Party we would be on the right track. There must be something more recent surely though.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Yes, red shirts many find raisers and they announced big donations on stage but it is peanuts comparing to the actual costs.
DSI chief yesterday said in an interview that out of 150 bil mentioned in the media he believes 10 bil were related to financing the protest. Even if goes down to 1 billion it’s still A LOT more than the money raised by the reds themselves.
Somsak here gave his own estimation not long time ago and, if I remember correctly, reds “big” donations wouldn’t cover even the cost of guards for one day.
Another point I think is being missed by a couple of commentators here is that money spent is not only cash given to people to attend or vote a certain way.
Yes, it’s true that no one would die for the money, but if you spend this money to run a “democracy” school where you teach people to die for the cause or on a TV station where they rally the crowds to sacrifice their lives you get exactly what you wanted – spending money so that people die for whatever you want.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
LesAbby,
Some might point to George Soros as the billionaire behind the protest in Burma. I have no doubts the protests were completely legitimate, but Soros definitely has funnelled money towards Burma’s democracy movement.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
“paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?”
I guess it would be legit for paid demonstrators to protest for a feudal system where a group of elites or wannabe elites dictate who should rule and make up laws as they go along to maintain control. No where else in the world would this “we are for feudal system” protest be carried out, so I guess It makes Less Abby “yellows” unique and legit – no precedent to judge with.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
anusorn unno makes a good comment…I am researching in Thailand at present on this and related issues and I can say categorically that folk were not paid for going to these events because it came from their hearts – the issues for majority peoples are not flippant but at the core of addresing double standrads, social injustice and in claims for political inclusion. However, many guards brought in were paid a small daily per diems. Donations came from a wide range of interests, and PTV 24 hour broadcasts at Rajprasong via satellite link were running mesages giving deposit numbers for donations. As AW says, there is nothing unusual about this and the state’s fixation on trying to link everything back to Thaksin is weak and its reasons should be clear to err…even Blind Harry et al (?)
Firstly, some local voices : These are summaries as part of a longer piece in Thai entitled: “Open the mind and listen to red shirts: why have to come and bear hardship like this”? (р╣Ар╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╣Гр╕Ир╕Яр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З ‘р╕Чр╕│р╣Др╕б р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕ер╕│р╕Ър╕▓р╕Бр╕ер╕│р╕Ър╕Щр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Вр╕Щр╕▓р╕Фр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й’) Ms Suchada Praphanwong (р╕кр╕╕р╕Кр╕▓р╕Ор╕▓ р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Юр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╣Мр╕зр╕Зр╕ир╣М) in Matichon online (interview with five Red Shirt demonstrators gathering at Rajprasong), 24 April 2010 (see reproduced in http://thaienews.blogspot.com/2010/04/blog-post_3159.html)
[Informant “A”, rural male, Northeast Thailand]
…we did not elect this government; the poor have been left out
for 4 years; we have to put up with the power this government seized from the people. Today we must rise-up and fight for our rights that have been taken away from us; this is to ask for democracy that can help people to be able to “open their eyes and their mouths” and to know that their rights and their votes are important. This enables us to have rice to eat (lit. “Having rice to put in a pot”, [р╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Бр╕лр╕бр╣Йр╕н]); even villagers who have little education understand that they have equal rights to access state welfare and support… But poor folk never have access to this in their life and once they started to have these benefits (under Thaksin’s policies) – it was later taken away (under the current regime). When they are sick and want to see a doctor and have no money the (state subsidised) Baht 30 card was used but this is now no longer valid for us (it now only applies in practice to those with salaries).
The Democrat Party changed the guidelines to make it more
difficult for villagers to access this support (even the burden of basic school fees which the current regime said would be free). The OTOP Centre (which was made successful under Thaksin as a marketing mechanism for local sub-districts around the country) now stands as a museum. The money we used to borrow without interest is no
longer possible: we have no salary and therefore cannot borrow from the bank (Thaksin used to work with the Savings Bank to ensure low interest loans for poor folk and establish Baht one-million scheme for all villages).
The Red Shirts do not expect Thaksin to come back and govern the country – it could be anyone who does not ignore the plight of the poor (majority peoples), and who do not push us down to the ground and who do not see the people as “robbers” (the implication here is that elitist propaganda represented poor rural and urban folk in the past four years as being given special economic and social benefits and hence disturbed the power equation during Thaksin’s time). Red Shirts come out now to show that we still exist…
[Informant “B”] female, 45 years of age, from Bangsue, Bangkok, Ms Woranut Chiangsaai (р╕зр╕гр╕Щр╕╕р╕К р╣Ар╕Кр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕кр╕▓р╕в), nine years basic education; street vendor years basic education; street vendor selling leather-ware with a stall at Jatujak Market; daughter of soldier. Woranut was sponsoring food for red Shirts at a cost of Baht 5-6,000 per month:
…I feel good doing this. No one encouraged me to come – but I wanted to see with my own eyes. Core (Red) leaders did not ask women and children to surround the group (as the Yellow Shirts/PAD did previously and the media tried to make out). But we understand the villagers are in trouble. The people survive if the nation survives. I want Thaksin to come back. But, if he cannot come back I hope a new leader can take care of the poor and solve the drug problem (there are indications of a massive increase in drug addiction over the past few years and its easy availability on the streets). I have to thank Thaksin for getting my three children out of drug addiction… In regard to a question on Thaksin and the Monarchy: …there is no comparison: we expected Thaksin to lead the country (as an elected political leader) but of course the king is above our heads. We want the current government out because, apart from deterioration in the economy, the PM acts opposite to the way to talks (hypocritical). He makes people hate each other. Even though I’m just a street vendor, without much education I know it is not right for the army to shoot people. In the news we heard that it was only red Shirts hurting the soldiers. How can the PM who is leader of the country continue to be like this? Or maybe he thinks we are not humans? A PM should be elected by the people through the party; but in this case they just chose from among themselves: this is not right. We did not mark (vote) for the Democrat Party to run the country. Now the economy has “fallen down”…If the government wants to get rid of people why not just call us all together and use a large bomb; if they don’t value us as citizens…
END trans. (my comments in parentheses)
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
In a reply to Andrew as to how I know how the people in my village voted, and whether their actions should be judged as being immoral. I have lived in my ethnic Shan (Tai) village for over 25 years, and am related to scores of villagers. I have also employed many more. We talk together (in Tai and Kum Muang) openly and freely. There have been many elections over the years, and as anusorn states, people usually accept money from the canvassers of the candidates that they intend to vote for anyway. Morality is not an issue for most, though I know a handfull of people who do not accept bribes for their vote. The system is so entrenched that it is viewed as normal. The people I know well are very honest. They willingly tell me the names of the candidate buying votes and who they voted for. A simple justification is that both sides are buying so why not take the money? Some take money from both sides. They are not so blinded by a purple note that they lose sight of the motives of the candidates. Unfortunately the subsequent recouping of the investment is also seen as normal behaviour for elected officials. With larger amounts of the central budget coming into TAOs, the opportunity for local corruption has grown. The infamous TAO roads, which can be scratched away with a fingernail, illustrate this well. Things move up a notch when active politicians switch parties. TRT perfected this with reports of 30-50 million baht pricetags. Our local MP jumped to Taksin’s camp. I have no idea if Newin was paid to switch and/or had other motives.
The system is obviously deeply flawed and the next general election has the potential to be the dirtiest, most expensive ever. The stakes are very high and judging by the amount spent on financing protest movements, a clean election free of vote and MP buying is impossible. As for the PADs alternative to the flawed democratic system… I prefer to trust the morally challenged electorate.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
re: LesAbbey
Make it even easier Andrew. Don’t limit it to Burma. Where else in the world over the entire history of man has a legitimate pro-democracy movement been funded almost only by one billionaire and his family? I’m sure there must be at least one or two, isn’t there? If not we must be in a unique situation.
It’s time you acquaint yourself with a gentleman who was known as Haym Solomon.
Just sayin’.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
OK the question has been up for more than 24 hours and no answers. If there is no answer I guess that means one of two things.
Either the 2009/2010 UDD rally in Thailand is unique or the red shirts are not a legitimate pro-democracy movement. Maybe my logic is flawed and you are welcome to question it, but you should answer the question first.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
simon #31,
Just to add to the very long list already compiled by nganadeeleg I would also add the half appointed senate.
And be warned, the propaganda has just started, the re-education in high schools of students commenced on Monday with visits by the “thought headmasters” as the Thai kids call them, paying a visit to my daughter’s high school. And when the students had the temerity to challenge these conveyers of propaganda, the students were told to be silent.
And then look at the make-up of the so-called reconciliation committee just announced by the government. How can you reconcile anything when it’s totally stacked with government supporters?
Andrew has a valid point, with the government spending billions of baht on “re-education and reconciliation” why wouldn’t the UDD, who happen to be tax payers, be rather angry about enquires into where their money comes from. Unless Thailand goes across to the Australian model of tax payer sponsored campaigning, with total accountability, then it should be open slather for any party to solicit donations from anywhere and anyone.
Aftermath of “In the killing zone”
[…] story, carried over on Pratachai as well as New Mandala, is a gripping, must-read account of one photojournalist’s encounter with the family of a […]
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Nothing shows more clearly the complete, utter out-dated stupidity of Thailand’s LM laws, in this age, than this post :
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/telecom/38943/websites-face-new-crackdown
It probably took Russian hackers only 18 minutes to hack the Royal Household Bureau !!
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
I think the issue is framed too narrowly and is highly reduced.
First of all, vote buying in Thailand is far more complex than what we are discussing. It is part of socio-political relations. Voters receive money from almost all candidates and it does not go that who pays the most wins. In most cases, candidates pay the same rate. It is up to the voters’ decision in which existing socio-political and economic relations play a crucial role. Sometimes there is no guarantee for the vote buyers that every baht they pay will do a return. In addition, vote canvassers choose who they will buy their votes. Sometimes it is clear that someone cannot be bought regardless of the money they pay due to his/her political alliance. It is a waste of money to buy vote from such a person. To say that money speaks for everything is to ignore the complexity of vote buying and, in this case, the motivation of the red shirts who were paid for participating in the rally. There are other factors at play in their making a decision to join the rally.
Second, although it is true that during the first days of the rally most protesters were from the provinces, it is found that later and especially when the rally gained momemtum, it is those working and living in Bangkok and adjacent provinces who constituted the majority of the protesters – the fact that is found even by the CRES. These people are not Bangkokians by origin. They are from the provinces seeking economic opportunities in Bangkok and other major cities. They worked during the day and joined the rally in the evening until late at night. Importantly, these protesters came on their own without being organized. As such, they were not paid for participating in the rally. Two middle-aged women who work as cleaning staff at a company in Silom told me they came to Rajaprasong everyday after work and the first question one of them asked me is “Has Nattawut given a speech on the stage yet?” Money has nothing to do with these “Mae Yok.”
Third, it was always publicly announced on the stage who donated what. There is nothing to hide about this. Those who made donations are wide ranging – ranging from local politicians and leaders and businessmen to government officials and ordinary people. Donations included not only money but also food, water, drugs, and other necessities. In addition, it is quite common to see individual donors drive pickup truck loaded with food and give it away to their fellow protesters. This is not to mention the fact that some protesters raised funds by holding religious rituals like “Pha Pa” for the expenses of joining the rally. To focus solely on money from politicians and make it identical to vote buying is to be blind to the complexity of how resources were mobilized in the rally.
Andrew raised a good point and I get it. However, the more the comments go, the more the issue is narrowed and reduced. Although it is true that many protesters were “paid” to participate in the rally, it is almost imposssible to comprehend the phenomenon unless the cmplexities I mentioned above is taken into account.
The return of Thailand’s old friend
StanG – # 45 :
“there will be no coup”, etc.
You’ve been proved the most accurate by history, leading up to and post Ratchaprasong so far – congratulations.
Your comments always greatly appreciated.