Let me assured you that we are not alarmed by the Nation’s article because I think we all agreed that the Nation is not credible. Furthermore the whole record from Thai’s authority was not credible anyway since, if you read carefully, the article was based on DSI source. Yeah that ought to add even more credibility to the article.
I’m not old enough to actually what the students in 1973 or 1976 think, I have a vague I idea on 1992. However, I think I have my own theory of why the Thai students are so lack of interest in politic all together and simply blush aside the matter my simple word such as “its boring”
First I look at the history of the country, during late 1950s to early 1970s Thailand was pretty much under military dictatorship under Salit Tanarat and later on to Tanorm and Prapart. The students who took part in 1973 and 1976 protest grew up in the environment where the country was under dictatorship couple with the left-wing idealism from China and Soviet Union was in its hay day. Therefore the drive to change and the ideology to back the movement was very strong. However, today the students are living under somewhat questionable democracy, but still called democracy non the less. The left-wing was virtually non-exist in Thailand political spectrum. The economic growth and globalization made the country more prosperous than the 70s. The students of the 90s no longer has the drive for change since things is already as good as it get, in their opinion and the students mind set and complexity about politic gradually deteriorated over time.
On the social side, the different political value also vastly different. One of the students who took part in the 1976 protest told me that, during those day students who did not carry book written by Lenin or Marx or other reformist around the school was considered as backward and ignorant. While today students who join political movement are being brand as boring and overly enthusiastic or stupid if they happen to align with the red. They will be exclude from their friends if they show any sign of interest in politic, this is my first hand experience by the way.
I could be wrong on my assumption so take it with a grain of salt anyway.
New Mandala has been operating for just shy of four years — indeed our birthday falls next week. Occasionally pages are blocked in Thailand, but this is a sporadic, haphazard and incomplete process.
Was it multiple choice? Were the questions so badly set that any number of possible correct answers were possible other than the ones intended by the authors? That is usually how it pans out. Note also that 95% of school owners did badly.
I have had enough of teaching here. Better to go home and get used to being a roadsweeper. At least one can have the satisfaction of having acheived something for oneself back home. Here, that is never possible.
Perhaps Prof. Chambers can explain why Gen. Chavalit (Big Chiew) dared to ignore Gen. Prem’s warning against joining Pheu Thai party ?
To join something as risky as being labeled a traitor needs very strong motivation and clear understanding of the situation.
Chamber’s one article on military reshuffling is more useful than a dozen on coalition reshuffles that get all the attention from the day- to-day press. That we are in 2010 and still must read the tea leaves of intra-military politics to understand Thailand’s democratic future shows that political development in Thailand as bleak as ever.
As for his question when democratization in Thailand experienced its latest “onset,” I would contend that democratization is ongoing as long as the discourse of democracy dominates a society. Thailand is unfortunately trapped, yet again, between significant periods of episodic “reconfiguration” in its long attempt at transition.
Ultimately, until the concept that basic law is only minimally to be trifled with is accepted by military leaders (whatever their class #), civilian leaders (regal or not), and supporters and opponents of any elected government (whatever its virtues or sins), Thailand will never experience a final or lasting reconfiguration. Sadly, until all these stakeholders develop such a mindset it may not really matter which specific general ends up on top or when. The country’s recent events and past record suggests that the country is nowhere near some “final reconfiguration” that could progress toward democratic consolidation. Idenfying the onset of democratization is less significant than the identifying a broad committment to basic law and constitutionalism.
The Yellow-Red divide is so deep now that episodic reconfigurations will seemingly continue indefinitely for the foreseeable future. What is so disconcerting in the current phase of reconfiguration is that much of the Yellow camp (and its top brass backers) may not be attempting to reconfigure democracy at all.
Where has that video gone of the lady from Central World, losing her shop and threatening to kill Thaksin and his family for what has been done. How do Red supporters feel about her and her loss, is that acceptable? I am sure she is no protester from either side, just a normal business woman trying to support herself and her family.
88 dead and you think the government should be replaced? By whom, Peua Thai – Thaksin cronies, after Thaksin killed over 2000 without trial? The Reds talk about double standards, but what about their own DOUBLE STANDARDS!
Now Yuri and James are as alarmed asTarrin, superanonymous and Roger that there is a witness to the Red guards (who also usually change themselves to Ronins clad in black) shooting massacre of other Reds plus a nurse at the temple at Rachaprasong.
That witness must be very very scared because he certainly knew who those Red guards were and what they were capable of. Other very scared witnesses would be surfacing soon . . .
That General Khattiya was overly talkative . . . and everything he said publicly was on record. He was hired by Thaksin. His job was to foment a civil war and surely enough the Rachaprasong protest degenerated into a full blown rebellion. And there were M79 grenade attacks, high powered assault rifles shootings (and some Reds shot by other Reds too, with malice or unintentional who knows?) and then arson during the crackdown.
The Reds were riddled by violent radicals . . . encouraged by the Reds leadership to belong in the big family uprising at Rajaprasong. The trail of deaths, bombings and arson were the images deeply imprinted in me, and to the world, by Thaksin’s Reds.
The military seems to me to be the gordian knot of Thai society and must be cut as it cannot be untied… as this article so amply demonstrates.
The first dimension represents elected civilians while the second refers to monarchical or regal civilians. The ability of this second dimension to exert tremendous authority over both elected civilians and the armed forces reflects its political supremacy over each.
I see the military riding the monarchy, not the other way round. Certainly the ability to project its own actions as being in consonance with the monarchy’s desires is an essential equestrian skill.
More often, regal civilians have found themselves collaborating with soldiers against elected civilian rule.
Exactly the point. The military labors, the monarchy collaborates.
Ultimately, what makes notions of civilian control so particularly interesting with regard to Thailand is the dialectic between these two tiers of civilians: on one side a sovereign who reigns supreme, and on the other elected governments which have proven to be politically peripheral.
Interesting to a specialist therein, perhaps.
Civilian control of the military seems to me to be an illusion, no matter the classes of civilians conjured up.
The military’s aims seem to be the enrichment and immunity of its senior officers. Its attention span to other things is such that it is willing to allow others to run things day-to-day as long as its primary interests – wealth and immunity – are met. So it may appear that civilian governments are “in control”… so long as the military’s primary “needs” are being met.
When those needs seem to imperiled… or when the opportunity to increase its wealth or reassert and expand its immunity seems to present itself… the military “swings into action”, as it has done since 2006.
To cut the gordian knot would seem to require a super majority of Thai citizens, 51% simply will not do. The military could quickly disappear and/or slay 2 or 3% of the population.
And the super-majority of Thais will have to be as active as the redshirts are. Clearly the South, Lanna, and Isaan are the nucleus around which this super-majority will be built.
This must be a non-violent revolution. Fighting with the military on military terms makes no sense at all. I hope they are organizing as we speak.
BANGKOK – HIGH school test results in Thailand have revealed a failure rate of more than 80 per cent in mathematics, biology and computer studies – among the teachers.
The failure rates for teachers who took exams in their own subjects were about 88 per cent for computer studies, 84 per cent for mathematics, 86 per cent in biology and 71 per cent in physics, the education ministry said.
And almost 95 per cent of about 37,500 secondary school directors did not score a pass mark in English and technology, according to the ministry.
The poor results have ignited controversy in Thailand about educational standards.
‘Even teachers fail, so how can we raise the quality of students?’ Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat was quoted as saying by the Bangkok Post newspaper.
More than 84,000 teachers and school directors took the exams, the first of their kind. — AFP
I’m not sure why the incline they were shot at matters, surely they could’ve been shot from ground level (at the front of the temple, as Andrew Buncombe was) – and it would’ve still been likely to have been soldiers. It’s just the simplest and most logical explanation. Obviously the crucial thing to note here is that this gives further credence to the assumption that you should believe nothing that either Suthep, Anupong or Abhisit says.
Del @ 66
You have the simplistic mindset that if you are not for us, you are against us and that anyone who disagrees with what you want to believe is one of those nasty red buffaloes from up country.
I commented about weapons and there effects, which happens to be my area of expertise. I also commented about the Nation and its credibility, or lack there of, which I included extracts, as to why the Nation had lost its credibility.
Why on earth would I be worried about a witness?
People in any sort of military action see things differently, especially when bullets are flying.
Notice I used the word military, what I can’t get through my head is the fact that the Thai military were actually used against Thai civilians. Surely you are not expousing that is normal, in this day and age, to unleash the dogs of war on your own civilian population because they have a different view?
The comments from Peta and Gareth above resonate with my own experiences in Laos even though I haven’t been there since I did field research in the country in 2003. Lao relatives of my wife who have traveled back more recently have expressed similar concerns over China’s growing role.
For a very brief time in the interim I worked as an audience researcher in US international broadcasting–an odd ideological field in its own right! A long story. Anyway, the interesting happening in the past two years or so has been China Radio International’s (CRI’s) attempts to get a foothold in the Lao media market. They double-channeled the VOA affiliate based in Nong Khai right off the air!
If you listen to the CRI programs online, it’s a little odd–Chinese-accented Lao talking about the doings of the Chinese leadership, for the most part.
Positives and negatives aside, China has an enormous population and seems to be exporting its citizens–and jobs for them to work–all over the world, even Africa.
Looking forward to your response clarifying the situation with LXML’s involvement in resettlement in Xepon district?
I find it difficult to understand why so many (but by no means all) of the corporate resource developers in Laos continue to sneer so self-righteously at the civil society groups seeking to support the interests of local communities, who are being stripped of their rightful share of resource rights.
Democratic values are not only “known”, they are also “lived”. We become familiar with them by exercising them freely and with less and less fear. In every society, we want to increase these values across the board. If, as you suggest, “among the poor Thais” many people are “aware” of these values — then I also submit that every other Thai, like every other Canadian or British citizen (my own frame of reference), can benefit from practising them with a minimum of fear and a growing amount of respect.
We will never sustain democratic mechanisms without support of democratic values. Social and political mechanisms do not survive — let alone deepen and develop — on their own. If you think many of the “poor Thais” are developing the values of democracy, political participation, and political access: why not operate within timeframes that encourage the rest of people to develop them, too? This is all I have said. Immediacy and fear of immediacy (this fear was very great!) will not help everyone else, who did not demand immediate or near-immediate elections, to develop and freely practise these values.
Real progress is on the front of mechanisms and values at the same time; because both sustain each other — and the values are the ones the average person (which does not just mean UDD or PAD or Democrat coalition) has the most direct control over.
P.S. I did not say 1/3 months was unachievable in itself. I did not directly discuss the goodness of a 1/3 month timeframe. I said the initial UDD negotiator offers were short-term and short-sighted, because, if I remember correctly (if I am wrong, please explicitly correct me?), the very first offers (to which K. Kwanvaree suggests a capitulation was possible) were significantly less than this. They were less than 1/3 months. Isn’t that true? As I have said, I replied to the implications of the original op-ed.
If they read that article, it says there is A WITNESS. When there is one witness, there are bound to be more because there were lots Reds taking sanctuary at that temple when the massacre (by other Reds) occurred.
Did you even read the link that I posted on?? Furthermore, the reason why me and others told you to take Nation’s word with a grain of salt is to exactly prevent you from saying what you’ve said here.
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Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Del – 75
Let me assured you that we are not alarmed by the Nation’s article because I think we all agreed that the Nation is not credible. Furthermore the whole record from Thai’s authority was not credible anyway since, if you read carefully, the article was based on DSI source. Yeah that ought to add even more credibility to the article.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Mr. V – 71
I’m not old enough to actually what the students in 1973 or 1976 think, I have a vague I idea on 1992. However, I think I have my own theory of why the Thai students are so lack of interest in politic all together and simply blush aside the matter my simple word such as “its boring”
First I look at the history of the country, during late 1950s to early 1970s Thailand was pretty much under military dictatorship under Salit Tanarat and later on to Tanorm and Prapart. The students who took part in 1973 and 1976 protest grew up in the environment where the country was under dictatorship couple with the left-wing idealism from China and Soviet Union was in its hay day. Therefore the drive to change and the ideology to back the movement was very strong. However, today the students are living under somewhat questionable democracy, but still called democracy non the less. The left-wing was virtually non-exist in Thailand political spectrum. The economic growth and globalization made the country more prosperous than the 70s. The students of the 90s no longer has the drive for change since things is already as good as it get, in their opinion and the students mind set and complexity about politic gradually deteriorated over time.
On the social side, the different political value also vastly different. One of the students who took part in the 1976 protest told me that, during those day students who did not carry book written by Lenin or Marx or other reformist around the school was considered as backward and ignorant. While today students who join political movement are being brand as boring and overly enthusiastic or stupid if they happen to align with the red. They will be exclude from their friends if they show any sign of interest in politic, this is my first hand experience by the way.
I could be wrong on my assumption so take it with a grain of salt anyway.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Thanks Unknown poster,
New Mandala has been operating for just shy of four years — indeed our birthday falls next week. Occasionally pages are blocked in Thailand, but this is a sporadic, haphazard and incomplete process.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Was it multiple choice? Were the questions so badly set that any number of possible correct answers were possible other than the ones intended by the authors? That is usually how it pans out. Note also that 95% of school owners did badly.
I have had enough of teaching here. Better to go home and get used to being a roadsweeper. At least one can have the satisfaction of having acheived something for oneself back home. Here, that is never possible.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Perhaps Prof. Chambers can explain why Gen. Chavalit (Big Chiew) dared to ignore Gen. Prem’s warning against joining Pheu Thai party ?
To join something as risky as being labeled a traitor needs very strong motivation and clear understanding of the situation.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Chamber’s one article on military reshuffling is more useful than a dozen on coalition reshuffles that get all the attention from the day- to-day press. That we are in 2010 and still must read the tea leaves of intra-military politics to understand Thailand’s democratic future shows that political development in Thailand as bleak as ever.
As for his question when democratization in Thailand experienced its latest “onset,” I would contend that democratization is ongoing as long as the discourse of democracy dominates a society. Thailand is unfortunately trapped, yet again, between significant periods of episodic “reconfiguration” in its long attempt at transition.
Ultimately, until the concept that basic law is only minimally to be trifled with is accepted by military leaders (whatever their class #), civilian leaders (regal or not), and supporters and opponents of any elected government (whatever its virtues or sins), Thailand will never experience a final or lasting reconfiguration. Sadly, until all these stakeholders develop such a mindset it may not really matter which specific general ends up on top or when. The country’s recent events and past record suggests that the country is nowhere near some “final reconfiguration” that could progress toward democratic consolidation. Idenfying the onset of democratization is less significant than the identifying a broad committment to basic law and constitutionalism.
The Yellow-Red divide is so deep now that episodic reconfigurations will seemingly continue indefinitely for the foreseeable future. What is so disconcerting in the current phase of reconfiguration is that much of the Yellow camp (and its top brass backers) may not be attempting to reconfigure democracy at all.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Ron,
Thaksin’s famous words…
“The U.N is not my Father”
Where has that video gone of the lady from Central World, losing her shop and threatening to kill Thaksin and his family for what has been done. How do Red supporters feel about her and her loss, is that acceptable? I am sure she is no protester from either side, just a normal business woman trying to support herself and her family.
88 dead and you think the government should be replaced? By whom, Peua Thai – Thaksin cronies, after Thaksin killed over 2000 without trial? The Reds talk about double standards, but what about their own DOUBLE STANDARDS!
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Now Yuri and James are as alarmed asTarrin, superanonymous and Roger that there is a witness to the Red guards (who also usually change themselves to Ronins clad in black) shooting massacre of other Reds plus a nurse at the temple at Rachaprasong.
That witness must be very very scared because he certainly knew who those Red guards were and what they were capable of. Other very scared witnesses would be surfacing soon . . .
That General Khattiya was overly talkative . . . and everything he said publicly was on record. He was hired by Thaksin. His job was to foment a civil war and surely enough the Rachaprasong protest degenerated into a full blown rebellion. And there were M79 grenade attacks, high powered assault rifles shootings (and some Reds shot by other Reds too, with malice or unintentional who knows?) and then arson during the crackdown.
And the arsons! Be sure to read FatherJoe’s account of those arsons at http://absolutelybangkok.com/carpetbaggers-or-else/ and his story of mysterious men visiting KloengToey slums to recruit arsonists.
The Reds were riddled by violent radicals . . . encouraged by the Reds leadership to belong in the big family uprising at Rajaprasong. The trail of deaths, bombings and arson were the images deeply imprinted in me, and to the world, by Thaksin’s Reds.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
How long will this website be in business I wonder.
Surprised the The Junta didn’t ban this place.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
The military seems to me to be the gordian knot of Thai society and must be cut as it cannot be untied… as this article so amply demonstrates.
I see the military riding the monarchy, not the other way round. Certainly the ability to project its own actions as being in consonance with the monarchy’s desires is an essential equestrian skill.
Exactly the point. The military labors, the monarchy collaborates.
Interesting to a specialist therein, perhaps.
Civilian control of the military seems to me to be an illusion, no matter the classes of civilians conjured up.
The military’s aims seem to be the enrichment and immunity of its senior officers. Its attention span to other things is such that it is willing to allow others to run things day-to-day as long as its primary interests – wealth and immunity – are met. So it may appear that civilian governments are “in control”… so long as the military’s primary “needs” are being met.
When those needs seem to imperiled… or when the opportunity to increase its wealth or reassert and expand its immunity seems to present itself… the military “swings into action”, as it has done since 2006.
To cut the gordian knot would seem to require a super majority of Thai citizens, 51% simply will not do. The military could quickly disappear and/or slay 2 or 3% of the population.
And the super-majority of Thais will have to be as active as the redshirts are. Clearly the South, Lanna, and Isaan are the nucleus around which this super-majority will be built.
This must be a non-violent revolution. Fighting with the military on military terms makes no sense at all. I hope they are organizing as we speak.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Teachers fail own subjects
BANGKOK – HIGH school test results in Thailand have revealed a failure rate of more than 80 per cent in mathematics, biology and computer studies – among the teachers.
The failure rates for teachers who took exams in their own subjects were about 88 per cent for computer studies, 84 per cent for mathematics, 86 per cent in biology and 71 per cent in physics, the education ministry said.
And almost 95 per cent of about 37,500 secondary school directors did not score a pass mark in English and technology, according to the ministry.
The poor results have ignited controversy in Thailand about educational standards.
‘Even teachers fail, so how can we raise the quality of students?’ Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat was quoted as saying by the Bangkok Post newspaper.
More than 84,000 teachers and school directors took the exams, the first of their kind. — AFP
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/SEAsia/Story/STIStory_537817.html
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Well, this seems to confirm that there were special forces on the tracks, plus a ground level fight: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/38495/let-the-truth-be-known-what-happened-at-the-temple
I’m not sure why the incline they were shot at matters, surely they could’ve been shot from ground level (at the front of the temple, as Andrew Buncombe was) – and it would’ve still been likely to have been soldiers. It’s just the simplest and most logical explanation. Obviously the crucial thing to note here is that this gives further credence to the assumption that you should believe nothing that either Suthep, Anupong or Abhisit says.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Del @ 66
You have the simplistic mindset that if you are not for us, you are against us and that anyone who disagrees with what you want to believe is one of those nasty red buffaloes from up country.
I commented about weapons and there effects, which happens to be my area of expertise. I also commented about the Nation and its credibility, or lack there of, which I included extracts, as to why the Nation had lost its credibility.
Why on earth would I be worried about a witness?
People in any sort of military action see things differently, especially when bullets are flying.
Notice I used the word military, what I can’t get through my head is the fact that the Thai military were actually used against Thai civilians. Surely you are not expousing that is normal, in this day and age, to unleash the dogs of war on your own civilian population because they have a different view?
The Western aid sector in Laos – days numbered?
The comments from Peta and Gareth above resonate with my own experiences in Laos even though I haven’t been there since I did field research in the country in 2003. Lao relatives of my wife who have traveled back more recently have expressed similar concerns over China’s growing role.
For a very brief time in the interim I worked as an audience researcher in US international broadcasting–an odd ideological field in its own right! A long story. Anyway, the interesting happening in the past two years or so has been China Radio International’s (CRI’s) attempts to get a foothold in the Lao media market. They double-channeled the VOA affiliate based in Nong Khai right off the air!
If you listen to the CRI programs online, it’s a little odd–Chinese-accented Lao talking about the doings of the Chinese leadership, for the most part.
Positives and negatives aside, China has an enormous population and seems to be exporting its citizens–and jobs for them to work–all over the world, even Africa.
Abhisit’s human rights education
The TeakDoor link is http://teakdoor.com/battle-for-bangkok-news/73467-puea-thai-khanit-not-impartial.html It has several other interesting links on Kanit.
Abhisit’s human rights education
Abhisit has appointed Kanit na Nakhon, former Attorney-General in the Chuan govt as head of the ‘fact-finding’ panel to investigate the crackdown. A poster on Teak Door blogsite (‘Midi’ ) has supplied the following link as background, to explain the Reds’ reluctance:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=437&dat=19961106&id=55wkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8jEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6628,1992561
Lao development debates in the news
“in the ground gold and copper isn’t actually worth anything…”
… Richard Jackson: developer of an astounding new theory of Hotelling’s Rule in resource economics.
This is why governments all over the world give away their natural resources for free to resource companies!
In the ground, all that gold, oil, copper, bauxite….
why…it’s not worth a bloody kip!!!
Lao development debates in the news
Richard:
Looking forward to your response clarifying the situation with LXML’s involvement in resettlement in Xepon district?
I find it difficult to understand why so many (but by no means all) of the corporate resource developers in Laos continue to sneer so self-righteously at the civil society groups seeking to support the interests of local communities, who are being stripped of their rightful share of resource rights.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Tarrin // Jun 9, 2010 at 9:12 pm
Democratic values are not only “known”, they are also “lived”. We become familiar with them by exercising them freely and with less and less fear. In every society, we want to increase these values across the board. If, as you suggest, “among the poor Thais” many people are “aware” of these values — then I also submit that every other Thai, like every other Canadian or British citizen (my own frame of reference), can benefit from practising them with a minimum of fear and a growing amount of respect.
We will never sustain democratic mechanisms without support of democratic values. Social and political mechanisms do not survive — let alone deepen and develop — on their own. If you think many of the “poor Thais” are developing the values of democracy, political participation, and political access: why not operate within timeframes that encourage the rest of people to develop them, too? This is all I have said. Immediacy and fear of immediacy (this fear was very great!) will not help everyone else, who did not demand immediate or near-immediate elections, to develop and freely practise these values.
Real progress is on the front of mechanisms and values at the same time; because both sustain each other — and the values are the ones the average person (which does not just mean UDD or PAD or Democrat coalition) has the most direct control over.
P.S. I did not say 1/3 months was unachievable in itself. I did not directly discuss the goodness of a 1/3 month timeframe. I said the initial UDD negotiator offers were short-term and short-sighted, because, if I remember correctly (if I am wrong, please explicitly correct me?), the very first offers (to which K. Kwanvaree suggests a capitulation was possible) were significantly less than this. They were less than 1/3 months. Isn’t that true? As I have said, I replied to the implications of the original op-ed.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
If they read that article, it says there is A WITNESS. When there is one witness, there are bound to be more because there were lots Reds taking sanctuary at that temple when the massacre (by other Reds) occurred.
Did you even read the link that I posted on?? Furthermore, the reason why me and others told you to take Nation’s word with a grain of salt is to exactly prevent you from saying what you’ve said here.