Diplomatic solution fails but at least we know that military training provided by the US and the military hardware costly bought from the US paid by Thai taxpayers work bloody well.
Simon Says posts above – yes : you’ve certainly “missed something”.
It’s a war between different military factions, allied to different Royalist factions vying for position re. the Royal succession.
That’s yet another important dimension to the Red-Yellow Shirt, “class-struggle”, regional struggles, Thaksin versus Bangkok elite perspectives.
This is an EXTREMELY complicated set of problems – don’t be a SIMPLETON Simon Says !
And here’s an interview with Seh Daeng – one of many – the ‘unofficial’ leader of the terrorist ‘black shirts.’
But I suppose – according to you Mr.Bowen – he was a ‘Newin/Sonthi fictional (perhaps robotic) creation’ also (???):
Mr. Bowen – concerning your allegations of Chulalongkorn hospital, you state Chulalongkorn hospital refused to assist red shirt casualties: here’s video evidence of the bullying tactics employed by the red shirts. Please watch.
But then again, maybe you think this is fabricated also?? A conspiracy fabricated by ‘Newin & Sonthi co.ltd’ to discredit, what is in reality, the bullying, ultra-fascistic tendencies of this Thaksin led ‘red’ movement. Democratic indeed!!!
Chulalongkorn hospital is a government hospital, notorious for its highly professional treatment (I belong to this hospital, so I have direct experience of this) for ordinary people who can’t afford private treatment. Please visit the link ‘physicians for human rights dot org’ concerning the hosptial staff’s excellent and professional duties/involvement as well as their medical neutrality/integrity during the past harrowing 2 months:-
Is it just that big powers, such as the US – or China for that matter – need to find new partners in Thailand, or is the kingdom’s strategic role as sub-regional hegemon threatened? Since end of the Cold War, Thailand has (arguably) been the dominant economic-political-cultural power in mainland Southeast Asia. The recent troubles are likely to resurface – perhaps accompanied by even greater violence, when certain key players depart or (re-)enter the scene. In the middle-term, will Thailand’s regional position be seriously damaged by such disturbances? Who would fill any strategic vacuum? Vietnam? Anyone for a resurgent Burma/Myanmar? Could such prospects motivate American diplomats to seek out new partners in the region?
Ozorro says: “Lots of reds and their sympathizers carrying cellphones and their ubiquitous cameras during and before the crackdown. They must have taken lots of video shots/photos of the ‘martyrdom’ of their fellow reds.
By now there should have been already lots of photos/clips on the internet showing unarmed ‘innocent’ protesters getting shot at by the troops during the crackdown. But so far none – NONE!”
Maybe. On the other hand, if I was in this sort of situation, I don’t think I’d have stayed around to take snapshots. Some might but I’d have been running and hiding.
Of course I do not have proof of the negative assertion that the blackshirts, snipers and M79 bombers are definitely not linked to the UDD and the rally at Rajaprasong.
however:
I wonder if anyone can say they have proof that they are linked?
by linked I mean known and managed by at least some of the UDD leadership.
I agree there are some photos and Nick’s statement comes the closest for me to saying that there was some relationship between the reds and the “men in black”.
but almost all of you are saying that the blacks were associated and aiding the reds and I just think the topic should be pursued to greater depth than that.
for me, having followed the reds for 4 years and recently basically night and day it is certainly counter-intuitive that the prime leaders (Veera, Nattawut, Jatuporn, Weng, etc) were associated in any close way with the shooters and bombers. To me they saw violence as counter-productive to their goals and the thousands of followers agreed with them. Numbers rather than force counts in democracy and I believe they accept that.
Seh Daeng of course was a wild card in the pack, perhaps tolerated but not cooperated with. Maybe he led and was associated, but my observation is that he was more involved with the slingshot armed guards than the more sophisticated blacks, snipers and bombers.
The elites incl royals are desperate to defeat and suppress the reds so we have to recognise that their acolytes and servants will do everything that is possible to achieve the objective.
The military/government/CRES are denying that the snipers, which caused most of the deaths and many of the injuries were theirs. Abhisit announced that snipers would be deployed to take out terrorists but no details have been provided on how his snipers wouls be able to differentiate. Seh Daeng maybe a particular case of course. All the rest seem to have been indiscriminate free killing.
The military/government/CRES are trying to distance themselves completly from the snipers because they could be liable to charges of uncontrolled murder on the streets.
As the evidence mounts, particularly at Wat Pathum, they are being found out as liars and if they are lying about this then why not about the men in black and the bombers? Unless they are a case of Newin/Suthep running independent of Abhisit?
David Brown has an axe to grind. He writes passionately but his words are loaded with emotionally-driven conviction rather than the calm cynicism expressed by others here. There has already been far too much speculation. But to quibble with some of your points, DB:
DB: Asia Times published an “interview with UDD blackshirts” recently… since we are all keen to nail down this intuitively false premise that the UDD has an armed wing we read the article …
> No. There is nothing “intuitively false” about the link between the Reds and the Black Shirts. Relying on “intuition” is not a reliable policy for ascertaining the truth about anything.
DB: … and it seemed too plausible and then someone alerted that Asia Times is part of Sondhi’s Manager media group so now we know its a setup…
> We “know” nothing of a “set up”. What is Sondhi’s role in editorial at the Asia Times? Does he control Eddie Leung’s management of the publication? Did he task Kenneth Todd Ruiz and Olivier Sarbil to write what they wrote? So these journalists can’t think for themselves? And so I guess all of Rupert Murdoch’s papers all produce material he commissions and agrees with too? Get real. You can’t say, so you insinuate, speculate. You lead with suggestion fitting for those who distrust large companies and capitalism in general. Its a “class war” (i.e. decades out of date) mentality but it still has a grip on many (morphed into anti-globalisation / anti-anything Western usually, certainly anti-America). Yawn.
DB: … they have just confirmed that the blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty …
> “They”? Who has “confirmed” the non-relationship of the Reds and Blackshirts? Where is the evidence? You are not making a coherent argument. As for a “probability” becoming a “near certainty” that Sondhi’s group were behind the grenade attacks, I think you are living in fantasy land. A letter to The Economist notes, “The Reds leadership not only tolerated, but clearly encouraged, those violent elements (Ronins clad in black), to belong at their camp. And the Red camp actually cheered (also captured in many video clips) announcements by Reds leaders on stage of M79 grenade launches and fatalities inflicted on soldiers and civilians.” And another reminds us of “Chilling quotes from the … interview given by General Khattiya to the Wall Street Journal: ‘He (General Khattiya) says he raised his ragtag militia for one last mission: to turn the marathon antigovernment protest on the streets of Bangkok into a full-blown civil war.’ ‘I won’t leave until Mr. Thaksin tells me to’ – rogue commander says he has his own authority stemming directly from Mr. Thaksin.” The Red leaders were encouraging violence and hatred for Bangkok. I suppose you think that Central World was burned down by Sondhi’s lot too?! (and I bet you are a 911 “truther” as well).
DB, your “intuitive” approach is a politically-driven sham.
Only a few of the many Thai people I meet are happy to express their views on politics. I can perfectly understand this. In many cultures, as we know, discussing politics is normally considered a taboo subject, unless with close friends and family.
However, while not not openly expressing whether they support X or Y, many people have expressed their sadness and upset over recent events.
(Recently, on NM, I slated a ABAC poll on the number of people who felt ‘sad’. I opined that outrage, anger etc. were more appropriate feelings to gauge.) It seems I was wrong, although there may be a comparative meaning and use of language point to this too.
Some, not many, have also told me they are disgusted by the media focus on the destroyed businesses and not on the loss of life.
Now, when it comes to the king, I only ever hear the usual, but, I have to say, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. With the queen and prince, it’s different; open disdain, dislike and even hostility are the normal responses,
I’m not sure what all of this means, but I do think that while many people are not concerned simply because they don’t care, there are also many people who cannot and will not express what they really think.
For example, I have never seen any mass public outcry over corruption, yet everyone I meet has been touched by it in some way, and they all agree it is wrong.
Is this silence a symptom of self interest, apathy or fear?
As pockets of armed resistance continue to be sought out and mopped up in the rural north, the question exists as to whether the Red Shirt resistance movement that recently brought thousands of violent demonstrators into the streets of central Bangkok will regroup once again to launch another attack on the Thai government.
It is not “armed resistance” that is being sought out and locked and “mopped up” but anyone objecting to the continued rule of the murderous, illegitimate Abhisit government.
The bloody demonstrations led by the Thaksin-financed “United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship” held on to 740 acres of downtown Bangkok for six weeks and sporadically brought violent protests elsewhere in the city for at least a month earlier.
Between the “violent demonstrators” above and the “violent protests” here the meme is violence against the government by the people rather than the inverse. Remember that North American far-right wingers hate democracy as much as Chulalongkorn Professors and Doctors do.
To a hardened world this may seem a low number of casualties for such a lengthy confrontation, but… this must be viewed in the context of the turmoil and anti-government clashes that have been going on for the last several years. This occasion brought on the torching of the stock exchange, the country’s largest shopping mall, and stores and cinemas in Bangkok’s main commercial district.
Did they crib that directly from the Bangkok Post? These are the same guys who’ll tell you “life is cheap in Thailand”… it’s cheaper in Orange County apparently.
The only accurate paragraph in the article is
There are two elements that have held together Thailand’s form of government that they like to refer to as their unique democracy. The first element is the armed forces in its several forms — and the second is the king and the institution of the monarchy. For the most part the two have been well linked in the past to preserve the peace and prosperity that has come over the years to this nation. Democracy is seen as following from that linkage.
The difficulty there is that they forgot to put the “Thai” before the “democracy” and to keep the phrase in quotes. But these guys probably accept The Regime in Bangkok, lo these many years, as democratic.
Since the American government is presently in the hands of the “progressive” wing of the far-right this trash is probably right in line with White House thinking.
By now there should have been already lots of photos/clips on the internet showing unarmed ‘innocent’ protesters getting shot at by the troops during the crackdown. But so far none – NONE!
The man behind this website Alex Jones also makes one of the most popular podcasts in America. So although all there conspiracies are amusing to most there is quite a large audience that laps it up.
Anyway, about the U.S. Government, I think the U.S. needs to do whatever they always say they’re “free world leader” to the recent incident in Thailand. Only problem is, do they have gut to do?
if you are insinuating that because the article was published in’ Asia Times Online’ it must be false – that’s still not solid proof enough to claim they aren’t linked to the UDD/Red-Shirts, and that the M-79 bombings are a Newin/Sondhi ‘spoiling operation’.
Have I missed something?
We should all see what the Puea Thai party presents as evidence during the no-confidence debate.
Lots of reds and their sympathizers carrying cellphones and their ubiquitous cameras during and before the crackdown. They must have taken lots of video shots/photos of the ‘martyrdom’ of their fellow reds.
By now there should have been already lots of photos/clips on the internet showing unarmed ‘innocent’ protesters getting shot at by the troops during the crackdown. But so far none – NONE!
So maybe at the no-confidence debate those evidence(s) would surface. In the meantime, all the video clips I have seen (some posted here at NM) were damning evidence against the violent elements, and, against the terror-urging Reds leaders.
About the criminal abuses of the yellow, the cases against them had been filed and should await Thai justice. All the allegations of G. Hopper he could submit to the Thai courts . . . but curiously (1), (2) and (4) items mentioned by Hopper, the ones hurt/killed were PAD, just wondering. And if memory serves me right, during the Yellow protests and their criminal occupation of Suvarnabhumi/Don Muang and other government buildings, the M79 attacks were directed at PAD, right? (Whereas during the Reds protests, all the M79/RPG targets were anything, but non-Red).
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Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
Diplomatic solution fails but at least we know that military training provided by the US and the military hardware costly bought from the US paid by Thai taxpayers work bloody well.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Simon Says posts above – yes : you’ve certainly “missed something”.
It’s a war between different military factions, allied to different Royalist factions vying for position re. the Royal succession.
That’s yet another important dimension to the Red-Yellow Shirt, “class-struggle”, regional struggles, Thaksin versus Bangkok elite perspectives.
This is an EXTREMELY complicated set of problems – don’t be a SIMPLETON Simon Says !
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
And here’s an interview with Seh Daeng – one of many – the ‘unofficial’ leader of the terrorist ‘black shirts.’
But I suppose – according to you Mr.Bowen – he was a ‘Newin/Sonthi fictional (perhaps robotic) creation’ also (???):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1BVTU_6QrA
Enjoy!
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
JohnH
I see moral hollowness everywhere, and sometimes it looks like me but I’m not 100 percent sure.
Great comment though. I like your style.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
“superanonymous”:
“Does anyone know how many of the dead civilians were armed, either alleged or confirmed?”
I have so far confirmed one single death of an armed man from the Black Shirts.
That’s it.
“doyle2499”:
Asia Books and Kinokuniya do sell my book.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Mr. Bowen – concerning your allegations of Chulalongkorn hospital, you state Chulalongkorn hospital refused to assist red shirt casualties: here’s video evidence of the bullying tactics employed by the red shirts. Please watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLq-3HtyZKs
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYdASCkNa_4&feature=related
But then again, maybe you think this is fabricated also?? A conspiracy fabricated by ‘Newin & Sonthi co.ltd’ to discredit, what is in reality, the bullying, ultra-fascistic tendencies of this Thaksin led ‘red’ movement. Democratic indeed!!!
Chulalongkorn hospital is a government hospital, notorious for its highly professional treatment (I belong to this hospital, so I have direct experience of this) for ordinary people who can’t afford private treatment. Please visit the link ‘physicians for human rights dot org’ concerning the hosptial staff’s excellent and professional duties/involvement as well as their medical neutrality/integrity during the past harrowing 2 months:-
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/site-search/search.jsp?query=Chulalongkorn+hospital+and+the+UDD
This ‘red’ movement that you are propagandising for has, unarguably, a terrorist wing amongst them – much to their ultimate discredit!!
Self-defeatism never goes very far. Neither do liars.
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
Is it just that big powers, such as the US – or China for that matter – need to find new partners in Thailand, or is the kingdom’s strategic role as sub-regional hegemon threatened? Since end of the Cold War, Thailand has (arguably) been the dominant economic-political-cultural power in mainland Southeast Asia. The recent troubles are likely to resurface – perhaps accompanied by even greater violence, when certain key players depart or (re-)enter the scene. In the middle-term, will Thailand’s regional position be seriously damaged by such disturbances? Who would fill any strategic vacuum? Vietnam? Anyone for a resurgent Burma/Myanmar? Could such prospects motivate American diplomats to seek out new partners in the region?
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Ozorro says: “Lots of reds and their sympathizers carrying cellphones and their ubiquitous cameras during and before the crackdown. They must have taken lots of video shots/photos of the ‘martyrdom’ of their fellow reds.
By now there should have been already lots of photos/clips on the internet showing unarmed ‘innocent’ protesters getting shot at by the troops during the crackdown. But so far none – NONE!”
Maybe. On the other hand, if I was in this sort of situation, I don’t think I’d have stayed around to take snapshots. Some might but I’d have been running and hiding.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Of course I do not have proof of the negative assertion that the blackshirts, snipers and M79 bombers are definitely not linked to the UDD and the rally at Rajaprasong.
however:
I wonder if anyone can say they have proof that they are linked?
by linked I mean known and managed by at least some of the UDD leadership.
I agree there are some photos and Nick’s statement comes the closest for me to saying that there was some relationship between the reds and the “men in black”.
but almost all of you are saying that the blacks were associated and aiding the reds and I just think the topic should be pursued to greater depth than that.
for me, having followed the reds for 4 years and recently basically night and day it is certainly counter-intuitive that the prime leaders (Veera, Nattawut, Jatuporn, Weng, etc) were associated in any close way with the shooters and bombers. To me they saw violence as counter-productive to their goals and the thousands of followers agreed with them. Numbers rather than force counts in democracy and I believe they accept that.
Seh Daeng of course was a wild card in the pack, perhaps tolerated but not cooperated with. Maybe he led and was associated, but my observation is that he was more involved with the slingshot armed guards than the more sophisticated blacks, snipers and bombers.
The elites incl royals are desperate to defeat and suppress the reds so we have to recognise that their acolytes and servants will do everything that is possible to achieve the objective.
The military/government/CRES are denying that the snipers, which caused most of the deaths and many of the injuries were theirs. Abhisit announced that snipers would be deployed to take out terrorists but no details have been provided on how his snipers wouls be able to differentiate. Seh Daeng maybe a particular case of course. All the rest seem to have been indiscriminate free killing.
The military/government/CRES are trying to distance themselves completly from the snipers because they could be liable to charges of uncontrolled murder on the streets.
As the evidence mounts, particularly at Wat Pathum, they are being found out as liars and if they are lying about this then why not about the men in black and the bombers? Unless they are a case of Newin/Suthep running independent of Abhisit?
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Dear Student,
I’m not sure that we can dismiss it. It seems like a completely logical extension of the basic propositions .
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Compare this thread with that at the Economist (which I have grown to detest, but still):
http://www.economist.com/user/Vichai%2BN/comments
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
David Brown has an axe to grind. He writes passionately but his words are loaded with emotionally-driven conviction rather than the calm cynicism expressed by others here. There has already been far too much speculation. But to quibble with some of your points, DB:
DB: Asia Times published an “interview with UDD blackshirts” recently… since we are all keen to nail down this intuitively false premise that the UDD has an armed wing we read the article …
> No. There is nothing “intuitively false” about the link between the Reds and the Black Shirts. Relying on “intuition” is not a reliable policy for ascertaining the truth about anything.
DB: … and it seemed too plausible and then someone alerted that Asia Times is part of Sondhi’s Manager media group so now we know its a setup…
> We “know” nothing of a “set up”. What is Sondhi’s role in editorial at the Asia Times? Does he control Eddie Leung’s management of the publication? Did he task Kenneth Todd Ruiz and Olivier Sarbil to write what they wrote? So these journalists can’t think for themselves? And so I guess all of Rupert Murdoch’s papers all produce material he commissions and agrees with too? Get real. You can’t say, so you insinuate, speculate. You lead with suggestion fitting for those who distrust large companies and capitalism in general. Its a “class war” (i.e. decades out of date) mentality but it still has a grip on many (morphed into anti-globalisation / anti-anything Western usually, certainly anti-America). Yawn.
DB: … they have just confirmed that the blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty …
> “They”? Who has “confirmed” the non-relationship of the Reds and Blackshirts? Where is the evidence? You are not making a coherent argument. As for a “probability” becoming a “near certainty” that Sondhi’s group were behind the grenade attacks, I think you are living in fantasy land. A letter to The Economist notes, “The Reds leadership not only tolerated, but clearly encouraged, those violent elements (Ronins clad in black), to belong at their camp. And the Red camp actually cheered (also captured in many video clips) announcements by Reds leaders on stage of M79 grenade launches and fatalities inflicted on soldiers and civilians.” And another reminds us of “Chilling quotes from the … interview given by General Khattiya to the Wall Street Journal: ‘He (General Khattiya) says he raised his ragtag militia for one last mission: to turn the marathon antigovernment protest on the streets of Bangkok into a full-blown civil war.’ ‘I won’t leave until Mr. Thaksin tells me to’ – rogue commander says he has his own authority stemming directly from Mr. Thaksin.” The Red leaders were encouraging violence and hatred for Bangkok. I suppose you think that Central World was burned down by Sondhi’s lot too?! (and I bet you are a 911 “truther” as well).
DB, your “intuitive” approach is a politically-driven sham.
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
Nuomi – 24
Only a few of the many Thai people I meet are happy to express their views on politics. I can perfectly understand this. In many cultures, as we know, discussing politics is normally considered a taboo subject, unless with close friends and family.
However, while not not openly expressing whether they support X or Y, many people have expressed their sadness and upset over recent events.
(Recently, on NM, I slated a ABAC poll on the number of people who felt ‘sad’. I opined that outrage, anger etc. were more appropriate feelings to gauge.) It seems I was wrong, although there may be a comparative meaning and use of language point to this too.
Some, not many, have also told me they are disgusted by the media focus on the destroyed businesses and not on the loss of life.
Now, when it comes to the king, I only ever hear the usual, but, I have to say, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. With the queen and prince, it’s different; open disdain, dislike and even hostility are the normal responses,
I’m not sure what all of this means, but I do think that while many people are not concerned simply because they don’t care, there are also many people who cannot and will not express what they really think.
For example, I have never seen any mass public outcry over corruption, yet everyone I meet has been touched by it in some way, and they all agree it is wrong.
Is this silence a symptom of self interest, apathy or fear?
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
This article is far-right wing trash
It is not “armed resistance” that is being sought out and locked and “mopped up” but anyone objecting to the continued rule of the murderous, illegitimate Abhisit government.
Between the “violent demonstrators” above and the “violent protests” here the meme is violence against the government by the people rather than the inverse. Remember that North American far-right wingers hate democracy as much as Chulalongkorn Professors and Doctors do.
Did they crib that directly from the Bangkok Post? These are the same guys who’ll tell you “life is cheap in Thailand”… it’s cheaper in Orange County apparently.
The only accurate paragraph in the article is
The difficulty there is that they forgot to put the “Thai” before the “democracy” and to keep the phrase in quotes. But these guys probably accept The Regime in Bangkok, lo these many years, as democratic.
Since the American government is presently in the hands of the “progressive” wing of the far-right this trash is probably right in line with White House thinking.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
@ Ozorro
By now there should have been already lots of photos/clips on the internet showing unarmed ‘innocent’ protesters getting shot at by the troops during the crackdown. But so far none – NONE!
Oh dear ……
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
Chris Beale:
If you found that funny you’ll love this website
http://www.infowars.com/
The man behind this website Alex Jones also makes one of the most popular podcasts in America. So although all there conspiracies are amusing to most there is quite a large audience that laps it up.
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Can we dismiss him and this statement as pure practical joke? Do we have to take him seriously?
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
Thank you for the topic. I found it’s very interesting.
May I put a link to some interesting photos and video clips of the crack down?
http://rajdumnern.ownforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2090
It has some English caption.
Anyway, about the U.S. Government, I think the U.S. needs to do whatever they always say they’re “free world leader” to the recent incident in Thailand. Only problem is, do they have gut to do?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
if you are insinuating that because the article was published in’ Asia Times Online’ it must be false – that’s still not solid proof enough to claim they aren’t linked to the UDD/Red-Shirts, and that the M-79 bombings are a Newin/Sondhi ‘spoiling operation’.
Have I missed something?
Enemies, foreign and domestic
We should all see what the Puea Thai party presents as evidence during the no-confidence debate.
Lots of reds and their sympathizers carrying cellphones and their ubiquitous cameras during and before the crackdown. They must have taken lots of video shots/photos of the ‘martyrdom’ of their fellow reds.
By now there should have been already lots of photos/clips on the internet showing unarmed ‘innocent’ protesters getting shot at by the troops during the crackdown. But so far none – NONE!
So maybe at the no-confidence debate those evidence(s) would surface. In the meantime, all the video clips I have seen (some posted here at NM) were damning evidence against the violent elements, and, against the terror-urging Reds leaders.
About the criminal abuses of the yellow, the cases against them had been filed and should await Thai justice. All the allegations of G. Hopper he could submit to the Thai courts . . . but curiously (1), (2) and (4) items mentioned by Hopper, the ones hurt/killed were PAD, just wondering. And if memory serves me right, during the Yellow protests and their criminal occupation of Suvarnabhumi/Don Muang and other government buildings, the M79 attacks were directed at PAD, right? (Whereas during the Reds protests, all the M79/RPG targets were anything, but non-Red).