David Brown.
Why is it ‘an intuitively false premise’?
Do you have solid proof that the ‘black shirts’ aren’t associated with the UDD??
“so now we know its a setup… they have just confirmed that the
blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts”
Where have they confirmed this?
Anyway, this all seems like ‘counter-propaganda’ once again. We’re swinging like a pendulum here. Pro-Red, Anti-Red. Pro-red, Anti-Red.
I will post the link I posted here on Saturday one more time just in case you missed it. Read between the lines. Kenneth Todd Ruiz and Olivier Sarbil are not Sondhi. I’m not saying this article is the gospel truth, but it has certainly given further insight into this dark presence.
Nick Nostitz has also stated many times that they do exist and are linked to the red movement. I look forward to reading his book on that when it emerges.
I don’t think anyone is denying the links between the Red Shirts and ‘the black shirts’ – are they?
“the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty” – do you have proof of this????
@Ozzoro: You just spice up NM with red hot chili, didn’t you?
I think what got on people’s nerve was your ignorance and lack of analytical skills. It is easy to forget the things PAD did during their rally. You might have very short memory, so let me remind you couple of things that had happened during the PAD rally that my small brain could remember:
1) PAD’s leader from Buriram province car was bombed. The white Cherokee car contained lots of grenades in there, and got unlucky bomb itself. – peaceful?
2) Nong Bo (PAD member) got killed from tear gas and became a hero?
3) On 25 November, PAD black dress guard shooting Red shirt on Vipawadee-Rangsit highway and hold up the K picture– reason?
4) PAD guard beaten up Suvaranabhumi Airport’s workers – peaceful?
5) PAD’s member truck run over a police man and reverse the truck back and run over him again – peaceful?
This is not to mention that none of their leaders are in prison (Kasit was awarded in the current government), and their trials are not progress at all. If you knowing all of this by heart and still don’t see any problem with justice system in Thailand. Then it must be one of these 2 reasons or all of them:
1. You must believe the government propaganda daily news so much that you stop thinking.
2. You must be really good at lying to yourself that manage to block other information off your brain system.
If you said that Red shirt was wrong, then Yellow shirt is no different. Who is the one using M79 grenade/RPG? Do you really know? Who would be such a fool to leave the weapons under the Red shirt stage or else where? Why in the world wouldn’t Red shirts use it? Could it be a set up? How could you know when we only consume one sided news report?
If you said that soldiers had to use the ‘live bullets’ to protect themselves from terrorist then why all the terrorists got shot on the head/heart from snipers? Using sniper is an intention to kill.
So, soldiers protected themselves from what? A coke man? A nurse? An old lady? Reporters? Protestors who using foot clappers, sticks, and rocks? Come on… why don’t I get to see any black dressed man with M79/M16 got shot? That would be solid proof, wouldn’t it? Just a VDO of them running around is not enough.
Trust me, you haven’t know the slide piece of true yet. It took Thai people at least 3 years before they realize that it was the students that were killed in October 14. How long will it take you to realize that there were only Thai people that got killed this time?
Well, why should you care? You got to shop at Silom Mega Sale last weekend! Right?
I notice that many/most people commenting here seem to have accepted the common (military/government supported) wisdom that the “blackshirts” are associated with and perhaps even under some leadership of the UDD
Asia Times published an “interview with UDD blackshirts” recently…
since we are all keen to nail down this intuitively false premise that
the UDD has an armed wing we read the article, and it seemed too plausible
and then someone alerted that Asia Times is part of Sondhi’s Manager media group
so now we know its a setup… they have just confirmed that the
blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts
the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty
meanwhile the other myth even more strenuously promoted by the military/government is that the snipers were not “their” soldiers
talking of snipers and elite tactics….
the behaviour of the Thai Red Cross and Chulalongkorn Hospital in:
– harbouring military snipers (see Porntips rapidly suppressed report
about evidence found on the 7/8th floors) and
– facilitated the public outcry of interference in their operations and
– who refused to assist redshirt casualties
was despicable and even more horrifying when we look at the royal and high prestige elite figures that are the patrons, board and executive members of the Red Cross organisation. Even our favourite royal princess was involved in visiting the hospital first to discuss moving the Sangharad and second to “encourage the staff”.
this of course at the same time as the military were positioning their
snipers along the overhead rail and tall buildings including at the
hospital for the purpose of “taking out terrorists” as announced by Abhisit.
I am waiting for the CRES or the government to explain what information or rules of engagement they provided their snipers so they could identify the “terrorists” that they were supposed to take out.
Were they told to avoid the medicos, journalists and unarmed red and non-red civilians many of whom that they shot and killed?
Are the CRES and government guilty of giving faulty rules of engagement or were the snipers incompetent or perhaps encouraged during early morning visit by the same royal or other elites to be excessively brutal in their targetting?
Nuomi # 24 – how about simply flying the old flag of Siam, with its’ royal white elephant on a red background, in honour of the great King Chulalongkorn who tried to keep the Thai and Lao peoples united, instead of them being driven apart as is happening now ?
doyle2499 #2 :
I agree it’s good, but not particularly insightful.
At least American conservatives realise big changes are under way, and that therefore the US relationship with Thailand will have to undergo fundamental change.
I’m tickled pink that one commentator thinks he’s outed Prem as a closet Muslim !
The proposition that the NE wants to break away with Laos is pure fantasy. Communism is still a dirty word in Thailand. Life here is better here than over the border, and everyone knows it.
Wanting a change of government is not the same as wanting a separate state, comrade!
Tim: Early elections were not part of the roadmap. They were offered with conditions – acceptance of the roadmap and an end to the protest *and* related disturbances.
The PM made it clear that there would be no early elections unless a ‘normal’ degree of law and order had been restored – accepting the roadmap was not enough, the violence had to stop too.
Thanks Nicholas. That article (and subsequent comments thereon) just reaffirmed my longtime suspicion – that the roots of Thailand’s current problems are Muslims and Barack Obama.
Its a good article if not particularly insightful for the NM audience, but the comments under the article are priceless, right wing US conspiracy theorists at their best.
Nick is your book on sale in Thailand? Where can I buy it?
Lee I gave your questions (231) a thumbs up, I very much appreciate your comments, these threads would be very stale and boring without your contributions.
Ozorro (#68) _ No need to suppose that “Overcome by shame and disgust very likely are the common sentiments by the peaceful Reds after being betrayed and manipulated by their leaders.” Go read the account of someone who actually talked to them instead of simply guessing: http://sopranz.blogspot.com/2010/05/coming-home-may-21st.html
As for your helpful suggestion to Srithanonchai that he give advice to the Red Shirts, perhaps he will take the opportunity when they are freely allowed visitors at the various police and army camps where they are being held. You’ll be calling for them to enjoy full legal freedoms under due process of law, right?
Ozorro – I think you still lack the knowledge on the people revolution as a whole here, maybe you should learn more about the South American revolution or the Russian revolution for that matter.
I think in my two years of writing articles here at New Mandala, i have made it quite clear that nothing in Thailand is a simple Black/White issue. I gather and collect facts primarily, i talk with people of all sides, i corroborate information i get. I try to cite as few anonymous sources as possible, unfortunately the nature of the issues at hand make it necessary to have sources that have to remain absolutely anonymous.
And most importantly – i cover the events on the ground.
It will take time to properly research the recent events. Much happened when journalists have not been present, and at the time i am working on being able to make sense of these unobserved events. Just wait and see what i will write in the book that deals with the recent events. 😉
Lee (#231): To add to the list of questions, a fairly straightforward one, addressed to anyone who might have the answer.
Does anyone know how many of the dead civilians were armed, either alleged or confirmed? (Possession of a slingshot doesn’t count as armed in my personal point of view, but any information is useful.)
I agree with the article that Thailand is moving toward “Presidential System” similar to the United States, Indonesia and the Philippines.
The Thai monarchy together with the military has brought sorrow to ordinary good hard working people in Thailand again and again since 1932: killing innocent people by using snipers without holding any responsibility; disregarding the rule of law by putting good conscientious academics in jail; using lese majeste law to destroy patriotic good Thai citizens by putting them in jail or chase them away in exile.
Instead of moving the country toward democracy and good governance, the Thai monarchy and the Thai military have been moving the country toward absolute monarchy of crony network by controlling the bureaucracy, the judges, the media and the propaganda machines. Thai people simply cannot continue with this tyrant system.
Today, an article in Khaosod said,”Over 80 people were killed, thousand were injured. The Thai government used violent means to disperse those who fight for democracy. As a result, so many people were killed, yet the government takes no responsibility.
Throughout the modern Thai political history, Aphisit broke the records in the number of people killed by the Thai soldiers. Besides refusing any responsibility, Aphisit even accused those who were killed as “terrorists” or “being killed by the terrorists.” When in fact they were killed by the Thai soldiers.
Killing innocent people without holding any responsibility is very dangerous to the process of democratization.
Do we want this kind of Thailand,” the author asked.
Just to clarify — nobody “disapproved” your questions (indeed, if we had they would not have gone on New Mandala in the first place). Some readers (not many!) simply indicated that they didn’t find your comment to be of “quality” — an inherently subjective measure, in your words: “not easily separable from views or values”. We are still tinkering with the comments system and expect that, at some stage, further changes and refinements will be made. We have appreciated all of the feedback on the new system that we have received thus far.
And, hey, I expect that my comment here will garner some thumbs down too. No harm in that!
Thanks Nick for taking time to answer my questions (231). You seem to to admit that whilst the Army has broken its rules of engagement – “several incidents” at least – the Reds, via its elite corps the Blacks, have too, including the use of grenades. So you agree that the situation is far from black and white.
I was trying to get an idea of the relative infringements of the rules of engagement to assess the extent to which either side had relied on such infringements as a matter of policy or not. I was also interested in finding out how widespread such infringements were on either side. I do not take sides in this – for a start my life is not so directly affected despite being a Thailand resident – but I too have regard for the facts.
Yet as you would know, facts are not easily separable from views or values. The truth you seek to investigate is already informed by your values and the assumptions that lay the ground for your choice of topic, the angle you adopt, what you seek and how you seek it. Not to mention how you interpret it. This is especially so in analyses of the broader political picture. Whether soldiers fired on innocents or not is a straight forward proposition which can be assessed as fact or not, but once we start to try to make sense of the interactions between facts then interpretation comes into play. So, I’m not disagreeing with you Nick. I admire your courage and truth-seeking mentality. I just want to say, in a friendly way, that I would hope you know its not so always simple to distinguish fact and value, or truth and opinion.
My last comment here is on this blog. Five people – at the time of writing – disapproved my questions to you. This shows me that people either don’t care for the truth in the same way as you do; they don’t care that you are being asked questions about the truth; or they are motivated by personal grudges against me because I have voiced critical views of the Reds’ which they dislike. Either way, it makes this blog look bad. If people aren’t interested in what you have to say in relation to these kind of questions or are motivated by grudge then I don’t think NM will ever generate the kind of debate it aims to.
To what extend Thaksin has been involved with recent events is mostly subject to speculation. Don’t underestimate though the ordinary protesters – they have played in certain decision making processes a much larger role than is generally reported.
By the way, yesterday night i watched the government’s mouthpiece Channel 11 – two presenters there accused Dan Rivers of CNN to have had a sexual relationship with Jakrapop Penkair.
Some of your questions i cannot answer you yet – for certain points i need more confirmation and corroboration before i will say something about them.
But yes, i have been at several incidents where the army has broken their own rules of engagement, and initiated deadly fire without warning shots against unarmed protesters, killed and injured some, and has also fired at ambulances. The fire clearly came from the army lines.
And as the Prime Minister has suggested – i am perfectly willing to testify. I fear though, given the two organizations that were ordered to “investigate” the events, that i will not be called to testify, as i wasn’t (and neither were many other witnesses i know) during the October 7, 2008 “investigations” (their final report, by the way, was rejected by the attorney general, for not having enough police witnesses).
How many deaths we really had is difficult to say, other than that there is increasing evidence that there might have been more killed than the official number. But at the present time i cannot go into detail.
The Black Shirts have existed and operated. I have seen them during one night, where they arrived after a Red Shirt was injured by the army. They walked into no man’s land, they have launched a series of grenades against the army lines. The army returned fire, and injured a few Red Shirt guards at the barricades. More i can’t say at the present time about the Black Shirt issue.
I don’t deal in “views” and “opinions” – i care about facts, and interpreting events according to facts. That i came under fire by the army is a fact. That the army fired on, and successively injured the unarmed Red Shirts in my images is a fact. That there were no warning shots by the military is a fact. That the Red Shirts did not fire against the army there and then is a fact. And the only conclusion of those facts is that the army has clearly violated their own set rules of engagement – which state that only armed protesters are a legitimate target.
I have, by the way, also came under fire by the Black Shirts while i was with the army during their operation at the Sarasin intersection, where Chandler was injured by a M79 grenade. I have also been at Silom while the grenades were launched against the PAD there.
I base what i write on having followed the situation closely since the beginning of the street protests nearly 5 years ago. I haven’t just arrived recently, i have lived permanently and worked here since the Chuan 1 Government.
Most of what i will have to say about these issues i will say in the third book of my series, as i will only say them in the proper context, and after i have researched the issues as much as i possibly can. Many more interviews with my sources on all sides are necessary as well.
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Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
David Brown.
Why is it ‘an intuitively false premise’?
Do you have solid proof that the ‘black shirts’ aren’t associated with the UDD??
“so now we know its a setup… they have just confirmed that the
blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts”
Where have they confirmed this?
Anyway, this all seems like ‘counter-propaganda’ once again. We’re swinging like a pendulum here. Pro-Red, Anti-Red. Pro-red, Anti-Red.
I will post the link I posted here on Saturday one more time just in case you missed it. Read between the lines. Kenneth Todd Ruiz and Olivier Sarbil are not Sondhi. I’m not saying this article is the gospel truth, but it has certainly given further insight into this dark presence.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE29Ae02.html
Nick Nostitz has also stated many times that they do exist and are linked to the red movement. I look forward to reading his book on that when it emerges.
I don’t think anyone is denying the links between the Red Shirts and ‘the black shirts’ – are they?
“the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty” – do you have proof of this????
Enemies, foreign and domestic
@Ozzoro: You just spice up NM with red hot chili, didn’t you?
I think what got on people’s nerve was your ignorance and lack of analytical skills. It is easy to forget the things PAD did during their rally. You might have very short memory, so let me remind you couple of things that had happened during the PAD rally that my small brain could remember:
1) PAD’s leader from Buriram province car was bombed. The white Cherokee car contained lots of grenades in there, and got unlucky bomb itself. – peaceful?
2) Nong Bo (PAD member) got killed from tear gas and became a hero?
3) On 25 November, PAD black dress guard shooting Red shirt on Vipawadee-Rangsit highway and hold up the K picture– reason?
4) PAD guard beaten up Suvaranabhumi Airport’s workers – peaceful?
5) PAD’s member truck run over a police man and reverse the truck back and run over him again – peaceful?
This is not to mention that none of their leaders are in prison (Kasit was awarded in the current government), and their trials are not progress at all. If you knowing all of this by heart and still don’t see any problem with justice system in Thailand. Then it must be one of these 2 reasons or all of them:
1. You must believe the government propaganda daily news so much that you stop thinking.
2. You must be really good at lying to yourself that manage to block other information off your brain system.
If you said that Red shirt was wrong, then Yellow shirt is no different. Who is the one using M79 grenade/RPG? Do you really know? Who would be such a fool to leave the weapons under the Red shirt stage or else where? Why in the world wouldn’t Red shirts use it? Could it be a set up? How could you know when we only consume one sided news report?
If you said that soldiers had to use the ‘live bullets’ to protect themselves from terrorist then why all the terrorists got shot on the head/heart from snipers? Using sniper is an intention to kill.
So, soldiers protected themselves from what? A coke man? A nurse? An old lady? Reporters? Protestors who using foot clappers, sticks, and rocks? Come on… why don’t I get to see any black dressed man with M79/M16 got shot? That would be solid proof, wouldn’t it? Just a VDO of them running around is not enough.
Trust me, you haven’t know the slide piece of true yet. It took Thai people at least 3 years before they realize that it was the students that were killed in October 14. How long will it take you to realize that there were only Thai people that got killed this time?
Well, why should you care? You got to shop at Silom Mega Sale last weekend! Right?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I notice that many/most people commenting here seem to have accepted the common (military/government supported) wisdom that the “blackshirts” are associated with and perhaps even under some leadership of the UDD
Asia Times published an “interview with UDD blackshirts” recently…
since we are all keen to nail down this intuitively false premise that
the UDD has an armed wing we read the article, and it seemed too plausible
and then someone alerted that Asia Times is part of Sondhi’s Manager media group
so now we know its a setup… they have just confirmed that the
blackshirts are NOT part of the UDD and the redshirts
the probability that the M79 bombings, etc were a Newin/Sondhi spoiling operation has increased to a near certainty
meanwhile the other myth even more strenuously promoted by the military/government is that the snipers were not “their” soldiers
talking of snipers and elite tactics….
the behaviour of the Thai Red Cross and Chulalongkorn Hospital in:
– harbouring military snipers (see Porntips rapidly suppressed report
about evidence found on the 7/8th floors) and
– facilitated the public outcry of interference in their operations and
– who refused to assist redshirt casualties
was despicable and even more horrifying when we look at the royal and high prestige elite figures that are the patrons, board and executive members of the Red Cross organisation. Even our favourite royal princess was involved in visiting the hospital first to discuss moving the Sangharad and second to “encourage the staff”.
this of course at the same time as the military were positioning their
snipers along the overhead rail and tall buildings including at the
hospital for the purpose of “taking out terrorists” as announced by Abhisit.
I am waiting for the CRES or the government to explain what information or rules of engagement they provided their snipers so they could identify the “terrorists” that they were supposed to take out.
Were they told to avoid the medicos, journalists and unarmed red and non-red civilians many of whom that they shot and killed?
Are the CRES and government guilty of giving faulty rules of engagement or were the snipers incompetent or perhaps encouraged during early morning visit by the same royal or other elites to be excessively brutal in their targetting?
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
Nuomi # 24 – how about simply flying the old flag of Siam, with its’ royal white elephant on a red background, in honour of the great King Chulalongkorn who tried to keep the Thai and Lao peoples united, instead of them being driven apart as is happening now ?
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
doyle2499 #2 :
I agree it’s good, but not particularly insightful.
At least American conservatives realise big changes are under way, and that therefore the US relationship with Thailand will have to undergo fundamental change.
I’m tickled pink that one commentator thinks he’s outed Prem as a closet Muslim !
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
The proposition that the NE wants to break away with Laos is pure fantasy. Communism is still a dirty word in Thailand. Life here is better here than over the border, and everyone knows it.
Wanting a change of government is not the same as wanting a separate state, comrade!
Tim: Early elections were not part of the roadmap. They were offered with conditions – acceptance of the roadmap and an end to the protest *and* related disturbances.
The PM made it clear that there would be no early elections unless a ‘normal’ degree of law and order had been restored – accepting the roadmap was not enough, the violence had to stop too.
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
Thanks Nicholas. That article (and subsequent comments thereon) just reaffirmed my longtime suspicion – that the roots of Thailand’s current problems are Muslims and Barack Obama.
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
Its a good article if not particularly insightful for the NM audience, but the comments under the article are priceless, right wing US conspiracy theorists at their best.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Nick is your book on sale in Thailand? Where can I buy it?
Lee I gave your questions (231) a thumbs up, I very much appreciate your comments, these threads would be very stale and boring without your contributions.
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Anonymouse,
The Thai version of of ‘running it up the flagpole to see if it flutters’ is ‘throwing a stone to find direction”, Yod Hin Ha Thang.
Sorry, not at a Thai language keyboard at the moment.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Ozorro (#68) _ No need to suppose that “Overcome by shame and disgust very likely are the common sentiments by the peaceful Reds after being betrayed and manipulated by their leaders.” Go read the account of someone who actually talked to them instead of simply guessing:
http://sopranz.blogspot.com/2010/05/coming-home-may-21st.html
As for your helpful suggestion to Srithanonchai that he give advice to the Red Shirts, perhaps he will take the opportunity when they are freely allowed visitors at the various police and army camps where they are being held. You’ll be calling for them to enjoy full legal freedoms under due process of law, right?
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Ozorro – I think you still lack the knowledge on the people revolution as a whole here, maybe you should learn more about the South American revolution or the Russian revolution for that matter.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
“Lee”:
I think in my two years of writing articles here at New Mandala, i have made it quite clear that nothing in Thailand is a simple Black/White issue. I gather and collect facts primarily, i talk with people of all sides, i corroborate information i get. I try to cite as few anonymous sources as possible, unfortunately the nature of the issues at hand make it necessary to have sources that have to remain absolutely anonymous.
And most importantly – i cover the events on the ground.
It will take time to properly research the recent events. Much happened when journalists have not been present, and at the time i am working on being able to make sense of these unobserved events. Just wait and see what i will write in the book that deals with the recent events. 😉
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Lee (#231): To add to the list of questions, a fairly straightforward one, addressed to anyone who might have the answer.
Does anyone know how many of the dead civilians were armed, either alleged or confirmed? (Possession of a slingshot doesn’t count as armed in my personal point of view, but any information is useful.)
Strategic alignment: Thailand and the US
I agree with the article that Thailand is moving toward “Presidential System” similar to the United States, Indonesia and the Philippines.
The Thai monarchy together with the military has brought sorrow to ordinary good hard working people in Thailand again and again since 1932: killing innocent people by using snipers without holding any responsibility; disregarding the rule of law by putting good conscientious academics in jail; using lese majeste law to destroy patriotic good Thai citizens by putting them in jail or chase them away in exile.
Instead of moving the country toward democracy and good governance, the Thai monarchy and the Thai military have been moving the country toward absolute monarchy of crony network by controlling the bureaucracy, the judges, the media and the propaganda machines. Thai people simply cannot continue with this tyrant system.
Today, an article in Khaosod said,”Over 80 people were killed, thousand were injured. The Thai government used violent means to disperse those who fight for democracy. As a result, so many people were killed, yet the government takes no responsibility.
Throughout the modern Thai political history, Aphisit broke the records in the number of people killed by the Thai soldiers. Besides refusing any responsibility, Aphisit even accused those who were killed as “terrorists” or “being killed by the terrorists.” When in fact they were killed by the Thai soldiers.
Killing innocent people without holding any responsibility is very dangerous to the process of democratization.
Do we want this kind of Thailand,” the author asked.
р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 31 р╕Юр╕др╕йр╕ар╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕Ю.р╕и. 2553 р╕Ыр╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╣И 20 р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣И 7123 р╕Вр╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕Фр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щ
р╕Щр╕нр╕Бр╣Ар╕лр╕Щр╕╖р╕н р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Хр╕▓р╕вр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ 80 р╕ир╕Ю р╕Ър╕▓р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╣Зр╕Ър╕Щр╕▒р╕Ър╕Юр╕▒р╕Щ
р╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Ыр╕бр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Цр╕Бр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Фр╕│р╣Ар╕Щр╕┤р╕Щр╕Зр╕▓р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕ир╕нр╕Й. р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕бр╣Зр╕нр╕Ър╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Фр╕╕р╣Ар╕Фр╕╖р╕нр╕Фр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕гр╕╕р╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕З р╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Др╕│р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Фр╕╣р╕кр╕ер╕░р╕кр╕ер╕зр╕вр╕зр╣Ир╕▓
“р╕Вр╕н р╕Др╕╖р╕Щр╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И”
р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╣Зр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕бр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Щр╕╕р╕бр╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З
р╕Ир╕зр╕Ър╕Ир╕Щр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕Чр╣Йр╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Ир╕Щр╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕Щр╕Хр╕▓р╕вр╕Ир╕│р╕Щр╕зр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Б
р╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Ыр╕┤р╕Фр╕Йр╕▓р╕Бр╕ер╕Зр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Эр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Кр╕нр╕Ър╕нр╕░р╣Др╕г
р╕нр╕ар╕┤р╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╣М р╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Бр╕│р╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕бр╕Ир╕Щр╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕Щр╕Хр╕▓р╕вр╕ер╕Ър╕кр╕Цр╕┤р╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Щр╕╕р╕бр╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕бр╕▓
р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Чр╕│р╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Кр╕нр╕Ър╕нр╕░р╣Др╕г
р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╣Зр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕бр╕Ър╕нр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Хр╕▓р╕вр╣Ж р╣Др╕Ыр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Гр╕Кр╣Ир╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕в р╕Бр╣Зр╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕вр╕Жр╣Ир╕▓
р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕г!?
р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Щр╕╕р╕бр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Др╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕ар╕▓р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Кр╕нр╕Ъ р╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕вр╕┤р╣Ир╕Зр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕нр╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕вр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕нр╕Щр╕▓р╕Др╕Х
р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕Щр╕нр╕Бр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕бр╕╡р╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕ер╕Зр╕Др╕░р╣Бр╕Щр╕Щр╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕│р╕Др╕▒р╕Нр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Щр╕╕р╕бр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Ар╕гр╕╡р╕вр╕Бр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕Фр╕Фр╕▒р╕Щр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕е
р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╕┤р╕кр╕╣р╕Ир╕Щр╣Мр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕ар╕┤р╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Ш р╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╕гр╕Цр╕Жр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Щр╕╕р╕бр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╕Ър╕▓р╕вр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Кр╕нр╕Ър╕нр╕░р╣Др╕г
р╣Ар╕гр╕▓ р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Бр╕Ър╕Ър╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕н!?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Hi Lee,
Just to clarify — nobody “disapproved” your questions (indeed, if we had they would not have gone on New Mandala in the first place). Some readers (not many!) simply indicated that they didn’t find your comment to be of “quality” — an inherently subjective measure, in your words: “not easily separable from views or values”. We are still tinkering with the comments system and expect that, at some stage, further changes and refinements will be made. We have appreciated all of the feedback on the new system that we have received thus far.
And, hey, I expect that my comment here will garner some thumbs down too. No harm in that!
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Thanks Nick for taking time to answer my questions (231). You seem to to admit that whilst the Army has broken its rules of engagement – “several incidents” at least – the Reds, via its elite corps the Blacks, have too, including the use of grenades. So you agree that the situation is far from black and white.
I was trying to get an idea of the relative infringements of the rules of engagement to assess the extent to which either side had relied on such infringements as a matter of policy or not. I was also interested in finding out how widespread such infringements were on either side. I do not take sides in this – for a start my life is not so directly affected despite being a Thailand resident – but I too have regard for the facts.
Yet as you would know, facts are not easily separable from views or values. The truth you seek to investigate is already informed by your values and the assumptions that lay the ground for your choice of topic, the angle you adopt, what you seek and how you seek it. Not to mention how you interpret it. This is especially so in analyses of the broader political picture. Whether soldiers fired on innocents or not is a straight forward proposition which can be assessed as fact or not, but once we start to try to make sense of the interactions between facts then interpretation comes into play. So, I’m not disagreeing with you Nick. I admire your courage and truth-seeking mentality. I just want to say, in a friendly way, that I would hope you know its not so always simple to distinguish fact and value, or truth and opinion.
My last comment here is on this blog. Five people – at the time of writing – disapproved my questions to you. This shows me that people either don’t care for the truth in the same way as you do; they don’t care that you are being asked questions about the truth; or they are motivated by personal grudges against me because I have voiced critical views of the Reds’ which they dislike. Either way, it makes this blog look bad. If people aren’t interested in what you have to say in relation to these kind of questions or are motivated by grudge then I don’t think NM will ever generate the kind of debate it aims to.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
“LesAbbey”:
To what extend Thaksin has been involved with recent events is mostly subject to speculation. Don’t underestimate though the ordinary protesters – they have played in certain decision making processes a much larger role than is generally reported.
By the way, yesterday night i watched the government’s mouthpiece Channel 11 – two presenters there accused Dan Rivers of CNN to have had a sexual relationship with Jakrapop Penkair.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
“Lee”:
Some of your questions i cannot answer you yet – for certain points i need more confirmation and corroboration before i will say something about them.
But yes, i have been at several incidents where the army has broken their own rules of engagement, and initiated deadly fire without warning shots against unarmed protesters, killed and injured some, and has also fired at ambulances. The fire clearly came from the army lines.
And as the Prime Minister has suggested – i am perfectly willing to testify. I fear though, given the two organizations that were ordered to “investigate” the events, that i will not be called to testify, as i wasn’t (and neither were many other witnesses i know) during the October 7, 2008 “investigations” (their final report, by the way, was rejected by the attorney general, for not having enough police witnesses).
How many deaths we really had is difficult to say, other than that there is increasing evidence that there might have been more killed than the official number. But at the present time i cannot go into detail.
The Black Shirts have existed and operated. I have seen them during one night, where they arrived after a Red Shirt was injured by the army. They walked into no man’s land, they have launched a series of grenades against the army lines. The army returned fire, and injured a few Red Shirt guards at the barricades. More i can’t say at the present time about the Black Shirt issue.
I don’t deal in “views” and “opinions” – i care about facts, and interpreting events according to facts. That i came under fire by the army is a fact. That the army fired on, and successively injured the unarmed Red Shirts in my images is a fact. That there were no warning shots by the military is a fact. That the Red Shirts did not fire against the army there and then is a fact. And the only conclusion of those facts is that the army has clearly violated their own set rules of engagement – which state that only armed protesters are a legitimate target.
I have, by the way, also came under fire by the Black Shirts while i was with the army during their operation at the Sarasin intersection, where Chandler was injured by a M79 grenade. I have also been at Silom while the grenades were launched against the PAD there.
I base what i write on having followed the situation closely since the beginning of the street protests nearly 5 years ago. I haven’t just arrived recently, i have lived permanently and worked here since the Chuan 1 Government.
Most of what i will have to say about these issues i will say in the third book of my series, as i will only say them in the proper context, and after i have researched the issues as much as i possibly can. Many more interviews with my sources on all sides are necessary as well.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
The purpose of the black shirts was to create conditions where troops would fire into crowds of red shirts.