No doubt “terrorists” was the accusation lobbed at the red shirts by the army top brass in their briefings to the troops before they went in, thus giving carte blanche for a license to kill.
This is going to be a long slog. What to do meanwhile? Here’s a thought.
After the Bangkok massacre the epithet “Land of Smiles” can no longer be used with any conscience. Since this is a selling point of the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT), solidarity action with the victims of the massacre could include a worldwide leafleting campaign outside TAT offices exposing the hollowness of the slogan.
“Albeit disorganized and factionalized, the Red Shirts’ occupation of the capital embodies a new face of Thai politics that cannot be erased or rewritten: the socially and politically disenfranchised are seeking political voice and representation, now, and this ideal cannot be staunched with force.” – Smith
The Red Shirts occupation and violent rampage of M79 bombings and arson and murder certainly cannot be erased nor do the Thais wish Black May 2010 to be forgotten.
It will decades or perhaps longer before any Red Shirts type of mobs will be allowed inside Bangkok. Just any hint of mobs, with murder or bombings or arson/looting in their hearts, and these type of mobs will be blocked and prevented from ever getting inside the city of Bangkok.
The Red Shirts had been deeply infiltrated by radicals and violent elements and for that reason no decent Thai would ever give a Red Shirt any hearing.
Two foreign enemies, one Australian Conor Purcell and one British Jeff Savage are being held for instigating the Red arson and looting during Black May 2010.
Conor Purcell had admitted that he was a ‘leader of the red gang’ in his tirade against the Thai judge. (I wonder of Purcell is an ANU alumni?)
At least with these two foreigners, the Thai government definitely caught two foreign witches, eh!
And it is terrorism . . . however hard NM contributors/bloggers try to redefine this recent recent Red violent rampage of M79 grenade bombings, arson and murder.
Let’s hear it from the non-stooges at Chulalongkorn.
Posing as an academic, as a public representative of reason and reflection and drawing a salary from the public dole to boot does require one to stand up against unreasonable acts on the part of those in power, acts which plainly work to the detriment of the individual, to the detriment of one’s own institution, and to the detriment of the society which one is supposedly serving.
Not to do so is to exhibit a negative example to one’s own students and to one’s own society at large.
Let us have a show of hands…
Those who believe the de facto government of Thailand is acting reasonably and lawfully and for the benefit of society? Those who support the government’s actions against Ajarn Suthachai Yimprasert?
Those who believe the de facto government ot Thailand is acting unreasonably and unlawfully and to the detriment of society? Those who oppose the government’s actions against Ajarn Suthachai Yimprasert?
John Francis Lee is absolutely correct. The frontage of the New World Centre had been secured by the army by 2.30pm. The fire broke out at 3.00pm. We know that the army had been in control of the Sky Train tracks for the whole period of the demonstration and had commanding views of the entrance to New World. (they had also been killing people inside the temple and those trying to get in).
I am also amazed that the fire spread so rapidly throughout the whole building. this was probably due to the fact that the building consists of many atria that are all interconnected with no fire or smoke breaks . I believe that there was no sprinkler system and if there was, the government had cut off the water. The building could never have been built in Hong Kong, Singapore or any other modern city because it would never have complied with internationally accepted fire & safety codes. The circulation areas were a warren with inadequately provided Exit signs and the exit routes were jam packed with stalls and cafes all with toxic inflamable materials, plastics etc. In fact, a disaster waiting to happen. Thank the lucky stars that it was not a normal shopping day although one corpse was found – a victim of smoke, it seems.
Stevenson is hilarious. Prince Mahidol was working as a doctor in a Chiang Mai hospital when he was taken ill, and he died in Sapathum Palace in Bangkok, but Stevenson converts this into the Prince dying while working with lepers in the north. After Rama 7 abdicated, the succession was decided according to the current law and procedure, but Stevenson has Ananda summoned by “politicians” to “restore” the throne. And so on. And so on. He just makes things up. He describes himself as a “confidant” of the king, but it’s doubtful he had more than glancing contact. His book on the king is so strewn with obvious errors that it’s best read as a comic fantasy. I found a review of one of his earlier books which concluded by saying something like, he was not the sort of man to let a fact stand between himself and a dollar. His “revelations” in this article are as solid as everything else he writes. Have a good laugh.
тАв Thomas Hoy #53
“Correct me if I’m wrong. You are saying that whenever a coup is successful, by definition, the ousted government was undemocratic because if it had been democratic the coup could not have succeeded.
This means that every successful coup strikes a blow against anti-democratic forces.”
Well yes, you are wrong, and I will correct you. What I am saying is that, in relation to Thaksin and the 2006 coup, the team opposing the Thai Rak Thai regime were no longer under any obligation to continue playing the democracy game after the captain of the TRT team paid off the referee and started kicking people and cheating with impunity. When the hooligans among the opposition supporters moved in with baseball bats, the rest of their fans were indifferent, and simply shrugged their shoulders and went home.
The great majority of opposition supporters turned up to watch a free and fair game, and would have accepted defeat graciously had the TRT team beaten them fair and square. They would have never allowed the hooligans in their ranks to invade the pitch. You might argue that the opposition team had a history of cheating, but this does nothing to further the argument that the result of this particular game was in any way meaningful.
I am getting a good kick out of what I posted. Pls minus my own thumb down? Hahah!
I have lived in Thailand for 33 years and dare say I don’t know very much about the Thai people. But I do know this Thai man who came to the PhraKhanong KohKlang at 3am one morning to check on the watergate during the year of Bkk great flood. That man was no other than HM of Thailand. The night guards of the watergate complex in deep slumber might have many sleepless night after seeing HM doing their duties! Without any doubt this earthly King is great. Those guards weren’t punished for sleeping on their jobs. He earns the respect of his subjects.
I have lived with some friends in the Issarn after my retirement. Here are some of my experiences and suggestions.
The Issarn region is very important for the Thai politics. With a large population of post-war babies who are 60+ or thereabouts. Mostly lowly educated subsistent farmers who grow rice enough for their own use. Their grown kids send money for the other stuffs in life. Thaksin TRT MPs were mostly former New Aspiration MPs sold wholesale by the turtle-necked crook, another exPM Chavalit. Thaksin changed the local administration structure tailor-made to assure vote loyalty. Lots of easy loans for the villagers and kickbacks for local administrators. Vote canvassers were paid well too. Thaksin even promised debt writeoff if his PTP were to win the next election. And a notebook for every school kid. Now these poor villagers die for handouts. They love the celeberation and here is the 500 baht for 5-minute democratic duty. To hell one-man one-vote, they are happy to drink to that deal. Proverty breeds proverty! The province that I live in has the highest school dropouts in Thailand. Drug, prostitution, burglary, gambling, alcholism and other vices are rampant in these part of the country. A perfect breeding ground for Red Shirt movement. At least someone is giving them attention which they lack at home.
Rioting in Bkk were mostly done around the two infamous slums, namely Klong Toey and Huay Kwang. Here we are talking about lowlife squatters of the slums. Well what do you expect from rural and urban poor? Violence! Thaksin knows his crime and tool of trade. These poor people are used and murdered for body count to blame the govt. They destroyed all cctv before any of their illegal activities began. It tells you a lot of the mastermind. I believe the govt is on track arresting the Red Shirts hardcores. The silent majority of any Red village must give info about the local Redshirts and their activities. If they talk the Redshirts will eventually be captured. Dems must find ways to reach out to silent majority. Work harder in villages where the last election results were close. Work with villagers who are influential. Provide some social actiities in their community centres. Listen to villagers’ grievances. Try to solve their problems. Train Pooyai Ban how to grow better rice crop and use his ricefield for that project. He in turn can teach the other members of the project the knowhow. Really show that you care for their well- being and provide modern educational tools for school-going children in community centres. Job training for the unemployed youth. Supplement income training for the farmer and his wife. Improve the local retail co-op so the villagers can on cut down their expenses on necessities.
Mungo Gubbins #54 – absolutely spot on. You are the poster on this site who comes nearest to my own views on the situation (along with Nigel).
The numerous pro-reds here seems quite happy to brush over Thaksin’s legacy (even if they acknowledge his failings). Whilst I agree that a coup was not necessarily the best way forward, I also feel strongly that Thailand missed a great opportunity to move to a brighter, more democratic and equitable future with the 97 Constitution coupled to the dynamism and popularity that Thaksin had during his first term. But he blew it, and in a bigger and more insidious way than those that came before him, precisely because most Thais held such genuinely high hopes that there would be no more 92s, 76s or 73s….
Maratjp #46 ‘If Thaksin was a crook he should have been judged accordingly by democratic institutions’.
Fair enough, but which democratic institutions during Thaksin’s time in power are you referring to? The same ones that were established with the 1997 Constitution (National Counter Corruption Commission etc.. and part of reason so much applause and hope was invested in that document) – that Thaksin then proceded to undermine and erode at every opportunity with his pronouncements and then manouerving of his own placemen into position within them?
Re. “what about the owner of the biggest whorehouse in Bangkok being in Ahbisit govt?”
Who is this ? Name your sources man !!
Khun Chuwit is not in Abhisit’s government, as far as I know – and I thought he owned the most, and most high-class, “entertainment establishments” in Bangkok.
Ten of them, at last count.
Thanks for a great touch of real life Sopranz!
Reading this really confirm my thought about upcountry red shirt. They are just an ordinary human being with fear, love, passion… Thai government should realize characteristic of Isanner. They are tough, hard working people, honest and very simple human soul. They are the oldest people in Thailand who have fight with nature to survive in dry / salted land for thousand years. All they need is a chance to have a better life, but no one had truly given them better and secure life until Thaksin came.
I don’t care much about Thaksin, but I admired what he did. His project did show that he had faith in the people and they can have better life than this. I think that Isanner was waiting for someone to give them that chance. It’s like you release a bird from a cage to see how high they can really fly and how big the world is for them.
Now just imagine you try to put the bird back in the old cage and tell them that is where they belong…sufficient life. This is just simply against all nature of man who yearn for freedom, for acceptant, for knowledge and to live a full potential of their life. What is so wrong with that? I would never underestimate their potential.
Christoffer Larsson #13 – that’s old news about Pinmanee.
He later switched sides and joined the Reds – but never won their trust.
Stevenson’s book is well-known as having been discredited on several counts (wrong maps, wrong information, etc.), but this article is something of a gem in that it confirms a lot of what is being said elsewhere about Thai military factionalism.
And in that regard, also fits well with events.
I’,m interested that you think Democracy itself is a threat to the establishment. I’d like to hear more of this argument. Are you saying that the real leaders are trying to bring their government into disrepute so they can replace it with something else?
Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that in the current world political environment, where the media wholeheartedly supports this sideshow of representative democracy, that all governments must represent themselves as democratic, regardless of their true nature. Burma is a perfect example of this.
Interesting question. I have a couple of thoughts.
First, I can think of a few Thai scholars that have worked very hard to build up long-term, mutually respectful relationships with communities in Northeastern Thailand and continue to do excellent and engaged research in this region. In my observation it can take a lot of time and patience for a Thai scholar (most of whom come from urban, or at least middle-class, backgrounds) to win the trust of rural NE Thais, precisely because Isaners are very aware of how they have been (and continue to be) represented in mainstream Thai culture. No doubt it is a difficult line to walk for these scholars, which is perhaps why they are not so visible.
Which leads to a second point. One reason why Western social scientists might be more active in this area (or appear to be more active in any case), is that chao Isan have, in general, had relatively positive experiences dealing directly, one-on-one, with Western volunteers, tourists, and scholars for a few generations now. In my own case, my previous experience as a Peace Corps volunteer teaching in a rural secondary school in the NE in the 1990s was very helpful for me in terms of doing research both in Bangkok and in the NE later. I had many friends and informants tell me that they hoped that I would “tell the world” about the Isan people – that they were hard working and working hard to develop themselves – they didn’t feel that this was a message that was getting out through the Thai media. This strategy, of “using” Western scholars and other farang to convey a very different image of the NE to the wider (non-Thai) world suggests a kind of political savvy and “rural cosmopolitanism” that flies in the face of continued representations of NE’ers as ignorant buffaloes by the “yellow-shirts.”
I write this from the perspective of someone who completed fieldwork in 2005 – before there were red-shirts and yellow-shirts. Certainly politics were a big topic at the time (with the national election at the beginning of 2005), but what is interesting to me in looking back through my fieldnotes and interviews is how much variation and ambivalence existed within those political discussions. Support for TRT and Thaksin was widespread among the Northeasterns I spoke to (both my informants and my friends), but by no means unanimous. And among those who did support Thaksin, there was a great deal of variation in the reasons given for that support. I am working on a short piece that explores some of those reasons and reflecting on how a better understanding of how these reasons have contributed to the rise of the “red-shirt” movement.
It is particularly interesting to read Sporanz’s blog and compare his experiences and observations with mine since he and I do research on similar topics (he on motorcycle taxi drivers, I on automobile taxi drivers) and note how political views have hardened and become more divided since the coup in 2006.
I have some more thoughts but I will save those for another time.
Sorry Leeyiankun, but whilst there were undoubtedly some very capable people in TRT, I would hardly call it a ‘dream team’. Thaksin didn’t assemble power? What do you call the merging of other parties into the TRT fold? That conveniently gave him a super majority which had no chance of being challenged in parliament (debates, no confidence motions etc..). The horse-trading, jockeying, and buying off that went on to help build the all-powerful Thaksin/TRT machine is well known. Yes, it’s something all parties and politicians have done, and do, to a greater or lesser extent, but the point I’m trying to make is that Thaksin was a master of political manouerving and this has had a direct bearing on how the UDD/Red movement has developed, even if can be argued that it has now become something bigger than the former PM.
And so, I’m more with you Nigel #6. Yours, mine and a few others are lonely voices on New Mandala who see things for what they are: a struggle between competing factions, with a good many unsavoury, and hypocritical characters working their magic behind the scenes. At least Duncan McCargo was able to get another viewpoint into the mainstream media, a good counterbalance to Andrew and Nich’s well-intentioned but sometimes myopic support of ‘phrai’ empowerment and the taking down of the monarchic-military-bureaucractic old order.
I can’t wait to see what all the pro-red, power-to-the-downtrodden-masses, commentators have to say if (when?) the Puea Thai party and its cronies are back in charge. Let’s see where your democratic development is then….
Charlem, Chavalit et al? You have to be kidding me. I just feel sorry for those genuine grassroots reds who do have those genuine greivances and now have such raised expectations for a brighter future…
‘Dear Khun Abhisit’
..what a wonderfully gentle introduction to an emasculating piece of writing…if you ever had balls I doubt you can find them now. I had secretly thought that there were no real thinking Thais out there (how arrogant of me) Khun Nuomi, you have become my hero. Emotionally charged yet pointedly specific, your writing has given me hope for this country.
So..my advice to Khun Abhisit……….
1. Acknowledge that the issue is bigger than you and most likely all of parliament and as such you need outside help…
2. Get yourself some good counsel..I know of someone…..
Reading this really confirm my thought about upcountry red shirt. They are just an ordinary human being with fear, love, passion… Thai government should realize characteristic of Isanner better than this. They are tough, hard working people, honest and very simple human soul. They are the oldest people in Thailand who have fight with nature to survive in dry / salted land for thousand years. All they need is a chance to have a better life, but no one had truly given them better and secure life until Thaksin came.
I don’t care much about Thaksin, but I admired what he did. His government project did show that he had faith in the people and they can have better life than this. I think that Isanner was waiting for someone to give them that chance. It’s like you release a bird from a cage to see how high they can really fly and how big the world is for them.
Now just imagine you try to put the bird back in the old cage and tell them that is where they belong…sufficient life. This is just simply against all nature of man who yearn for freedom, for acceptant, for knowledge and to live a full potential of their life. What is so wrong with that? I would never underestimate their potential.
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Thailand’s terrorists
Del: you wish.
No doubt “terrorists” was the accusation lobbed at the red shirts by the army top brass in their briefings to the troops before they went in, thus giving carte blanche for a license to kill.
This is going to be a long slog. What to do meanwhile? Here’s a thought.
After the Bangkok massacre the epithet “Land of Smiles” can no longer be used with any conscience. Since this is a selling point of the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT), solidarity action with the victims of the massacre could include a worldwide leafleting campaign outside TAT offices exposing the hollowness of the slogan.
Thailand’s terrorists
“Albeit disorganized and factionalized, the Red Shirts’ occupation of the capital embodies a new face of Thai politics that cannot be erased or rewritten: the socially and politically disenfranchised are seeking political voice and representation, now, and this ideal cannot be staunched with force.” – Smith
The Red Shirts occupation and violent rampage of M79 bombings and arson and murder certainly cannot be erased nor do the Thais wish Black May 2010 to be forgotten.
It will decades or perhaps longer before any Red Shirts type of mobs will be allowed inside Bangkok. Just any hint of mobs, with murder or bombings or arson/looting in their hearts, and these type of mobs will be blocked and prevented from ever getting inside the city of Bangkok.
The Red Shirts had been deeply infiltrated by radicals and violent elements and for that reason no decent Thai would ever give a Red Shirt any hearing.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Two foreign enemies, one Australian Conor Purcell and one British Jeff Savage are being held for instigating the Red arson and looting during Black May 2010.
Conor Purcell had admitted that he was a ‘leader of the red gang’ in his tirade against the Thai judge. (I wonder of Purcell is an ANU alumni?)
http://www.smh.com.au/world/australian-launches-tirade-in-thai-court-20100527-whrn.html
At least with these two foreigners, the Thai government definitely caught two foreign witches, eh!
And it is terrorism . . . however hard NM contributors/bloggers try to redefine this recent recent Red violent rampage of M79 grenade bombings, arson and murder.
Sutachai on hunger strike
Let’s hear it from the non-stooges at Chulalongkorn.
Posing as an academic, as a public representative of reason and reflection and drawing a salary from the public dole to boot does require one to stand up against unreasonable acts on the part of those in power, acts which plainly work to the detriment of the individual, to the detriment of one’s own institution, and to the detriment of the society which one is supposedly serving.
Not to do so is to exhibit a negative example to one’s own students and to one’s own society at large.
Let us have a show of hands…
Those who believe the de facto government of Thailand is acting reasonably and lawfully and for the benefit of society? Those who support the government’s actions against Ajarn Suthachai Yimprasert?
Those who believe the de facto government ot Thailand is acting unreasonably and unlawfully and to the detriment of society? Those who oppose the government’s actions against Ajarn Suthachai Yimprasert?
Enemies, foreign and domestic
John Francis Lee is absolutely correct. The frontage of the New World Centre had been secured by the army by 2.30pm. The fire broke out at 3.00pm. We know that the army had been in control of the Sky Train tracks for the whole period of the demonstration and had commanding views of the entrance to New World. (they had also been killing people inside the temple and those trying to get in).
I am also amazed that the fire spread so rapidly throughout the whole building. this was probably due to the fact that the building consists of many atria that are all interconnected with no fire or smoke breaks . I believe that there was no sprinkler system and if there was, the government had cut off the water. The building could never have been built in Hong Kong, Singapore or any other modern city because it would never have complied with internationally accepted fire & safety codes. The circulation areas were a warren with inadequately provided Exit signs and the exit routes were jam packed with stalls and cafes all with toxic inflamable materials, plastics etc. In fact, a disaster waiting to happen. Thank the lucky stars that it was not a normal shopping day although one corpse was found – a victim of smoke, it seems.
Stevenson on King Bhumibol
Stevenson is hilarious. Prince Mahidol was working as a doctor in a Chiang Mai hospital when he was taken ill, and he died in Sapathum Palace in Bangkok, but Stevenson converts this into the Prince dying while working with lepers in the north. After Rama 7 abdicated, the succession was decided according to the current law and procedure, but Stevenson has Ananda summoned by “politicians” to “restore” the throne. And so on. And so on. He just makes things up. He describes himself as a “confidant” of the king, but it’s doubtful he had more than glancing contact. His book on the king is so strewn with obvious errors that it’s best read as a comic fantasy. I found a review of one of his earlier books which concluded by saying something like, he was not the sort of man to let a fact stand between himself and a dollar. His “revelations” in this article are as solid as everything else he writes. Have a good laugh.
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
тАв Thomas Hoy #53
“Correct me if I’m wrong. You are saying that whenever a coup is successful, by definition, the ousted government was undemocratic because if it had been democratic the coup could not have succeeded.
This means that every successful coup strikes a blow against anti-democratic forces.”
Well yes, you are wrong, and I will correct you. What I am saying is that, in relation to Thaksin and the 2006 coup, the team opposing the Thai Rak Thai regime were no longer under any obligation to continue playing the democracy game after the captain of the TRT team paid off the referee and started kicking people and cheating with impunity. When the hooligans among the opposition supporters moved in with baseball bats, the rest of their fans were indifferent, and simply shrugged their shoulders and went home.
The great majority of opposition supporters turned up to watch a free and fair game, and would have accepted defeat graciously had the TRT team beaten them fair and square. They would have never allowed the hooligans in their ranks to invade the pitch. You might argue that the opposition team had a history of cheating, but this does nothing to further the argument that the result of this particular game was in any way meaningful.
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
I am getting a good kick out of what I posted. Pls minus my own thumb down? Hahah!
I have lived in Thailand for 33 years and dare say I don’t know very much about the Thai people. But I do know this Thai man who came to the PhraKhanong KohKlang at 3am one morning to check on the watergate during the year of Bkk great flood. That man was no other than HM of Thailand. The night guards of the watergate complex in deep slumber might have many sleepless night after seeing HM doing their duties! Without any doubt this earthly King is great. Those guards weren’t punished for sleeping on their jobs. He earns the respect of his subjects.
I have lived with some friends in the Issarn after my retirement. Here are some of my experiences and suggestions.
The Issarn region is very important for the Thai politics. With a large population of post-war babies who are 60+ or thereabouts. Mostly lowly educated subsistent farmers who grow rice enough for their own use. Their grown kids send money for the other stuffs in life. Thaksin TRT MPs were mostly former New Aspiration MPs sold wholesale by the turtle-necked crook, another exPM Chavalit. Thaksin changed the local administration structure tailor-made to assure vote loyalty. Lots of easy loans for the villagers and kickbacks for local administrators. Vote canvassers were paid well too. Thaksin even promised debt writeoff if his PTP were to win the next election. And a notebook for every school kid. Now these poor villagers die for handouts. They love the celeberation and here is the 500 baht for 5-minute democratic duty. To hell one-man one-vote, they are happy to drink to that deal. Proverty breeds proverty! The province that I live in has the highest school dropouts in Thailand. Drug, prostitution, burglary, gambling, alcholism and other vices are rampant in these part of the country. A perfect breeding ground for Red Shirt movement. At least someone is giving them attention which they lack at home.
Rioting in Bkk were mostly done around the two infamous slums, namely Klong Toey and Huay Kwang. Here we are talking about lowlife squatters of the slums. Well what do you expect from rural and urban poor? Violence! Thaksin knows his crime and tool of trade. These poor people are used and murdered for body count to blame the govt. They destroyed all cctv before any of their illegal activities began. It tells you a lot of the mastermind. I believe the govt is on track arresting the Red Shirts hardcores. The silent majority of any Red village must give info about the local Redshirts and their activities. If they talk the Redshirts will eventually be captured. Dems must find ways to reach out to silent majority. Work harder in villages where the last election results were close. Work with villagers who are influential. Provide some social actiities in their community centres. Listen to villagers’ grievances. Try to solve their problems. Train Pooyai Ban how to grow better rice crop and use his ricefield for that project. He in turn can teach the other members of the project the knowhow. Really show that you care for their well- being and provide modern educational tools for school-going children in community centres. Job training for the unemployed youth. Supplement income training for the farmer and his wife. Improve the local retail co-op so the villagers can on cut down their expenses on necessities.
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
Mungo Gubbins #54 – absolutely spot on. You are the poster on this site who comes nearest to my own views on the situation (along with Nigel).
The numerous pro-reds here seems quite happy to brush over Thaksin’s legacy (even if they acknowledge his failings). Whilst I agree that a coup was not necessarily the best way forward, I also feel strongly that Thailand missed a great opportunity to move to a brighter, more democratic and equitable future with the 97 Constitution coupled to the dynamism and popularity that Thaksin had during his first term. But he blew it, and in a bigger and more insidious way than those that came before him, precisely because most Thais held such genuinely high hopes that there would be no more 92s, 76s or 73s….
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
Maratjp #46 ‘If Thaksin was a crook he should have been judged accordingly by democratic institutions’.
Fair enough, but which democratic institutions during Thaksin’s time in power are you referring to? The same ones that were established with the 1997 Constitution (National Counter Corruption Commission etc.. and part of reason so much applause and hope was invested in that document) – that Thaksin then proceded to undermine and erode at every opportunity with his pronouncements and then manouerving of his own placemen into position within them?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Neptunian #202 :
Re. “what about the owner of the biggest whorehouse in Bangkok being in Ahbisit govt?”
Who is this ? Name your sources man !!
Khun Chuwit is not in Abhisit’s government, as far as I know – and I thought he owned the most, and most high-class, “entertainment establishments” in Bangkok.
Ten of them, at last count.
Why aren’t more Thai social scientists doing this?
Thanks for a great touch of real life Sopranz!
Reading this really confirm my thought about upcountry red shirt. They are just an ordinary human being with fear, love, passion… Thai government should realize characteristic of Isanner. They are tough, hard working people, honest and very simple human soul. They are the oldest people in Thailand who have fight with nature to survive in dry / salted land for thousand years. All they need is a chance to have a better life, but no one had truly given them better and secure life until Thaksin came.
I don’t care much about Thaksin, but I admired what he did. His project did show that he had faith in the people and they can have better life than this. I think that Isanner was waiting for someone to give them that chance. It’s like you release a bird from a cage to see how high they can really fly and how big the world is for them.
Now just imagine you try to put the bird back in the old cage and tell them that is where they belong…sufficient life. This is just simply against all nature of man who yearn for freedom, for acceptant, for knowledge and to live a full potential of their life. What is so wrong with that? I would never underestimate their potential.
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
too many good comments and some odd comments as well.
//my comment is : mr. aphisit,please be honest with YourSelf.
i never think that all of these good comments and odd one will get to mr. aphisit. Oh, well… we had tried our best..
Stevenson on King Bhumibol
Christoffer Larsson #13 – that’s old news about Pinmanee.
He later switched sides and joined the Reds – but never won their trust.
Stevenson’s book is well-known as having been discredited on several counts (wrong maps, wrong information, etc.), but this article is something of a gem in that it confirms a lot of what is being said elsewhere about Thai military factionalism.
And in that regard, also fits well with events.
Thai style democracy?
Tarrin
I’,m interested that you think Democracy itself is a threat to the establishment. I’d like to hear more of this argument. Are you saying that the real leaders are trying to bring their government into disrepute so they can replace it with something else?
Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that in the current world political environment, where the media wholeheartedly supports this sideshow of representative democracy, that all governments must represent themselves as democratic, regardless of their true nature. Burma is a perfect example of this.
Why aren’t more Thai social scientists doing this?
Interesting question. I have a couple of thoughts.
First, I can think of a few Thai scholars that have worked very hard to build up long-term, mutually respectful relationships with communities in Northeastern Thailand and continue to do excellent and engaged research in this region. In my observation it can take a lot of time and patience for a Thai scholar (most of whom come from urban, or at least middle-class, backgrounds) to win the trust of rural NE Thais, precisely because Isaners are very aware of how they have been (and continue to be) represented in mainstream Thai culture. No doubt it is a difficult line to walk for these scholars, which is perhaps why they are not so visible.
Which leads to a second point. One reason why Western social scientists might be more active in this area (or appear to be more active in any case), is that chao Isan have, in general, had relatively positive experiences dealing directly, one-on-one, with Western volunteers, tourists, and scholars for a few generations now. In my own case, my previous experience as a Peace Corps volunteer teaching in a rural secondary school in the NE in the 1990s was very helpful for me in terms of doing research both in Bangkok and in the NE later. I had many friends and informants tell me that they hoped that I would “tell the world” about the Isan people – that they were hard working and working hard to develop themselves – they didn’t feel that this was a message that was getting out through the Thai media. This strategy, of “using” Western scholars and other farang to convey a very different image of the NE to the wider (non-Thai) world suggests a kind of political savvy and “rural cosmopolitanism” that flies in the face of continued representations of NE’ers as ignorant buffaloes by the “yellow-shirts.”
I write this from the perspective of someone who completed fieldwork in 2005 – before there were red-shirts and yellow-shirts. Certainly politics were a big topic at the time (with the national election at the beginning of 2005), but what is interesting to me in looking back through my fieldnotes and interviews is how much variation and ambivalence existed within those political discussions. Support for TRT and Thaksin was widespread among the Northeasterns I spoke to (both my informants and my friends), but by no means unanimous. And among those who did support Thaksin, there was a great deal of variation in the reasons given for that support. I am working on a short piece that explores some of those reasons and reflecting on how a better understanding of how these reasons have contributed to the rise of the “red-shirt” movement.
It is particularly interesting to read Sporanz’s blog and compare his experiences and observations with mine since he and I do research on similar topics (he on motorcycle taxi drivers, I on automobile taxi drivers) and note how political views have hardened and become more divided since the coup in 2006.
I have some more thoughts but I will save those for another time.
The challenge for Mr Abhisit…
Sorry Leeyiankun, but whilst there were undoubtedly some very capable people in TRT, I would hardly call it a ‘dream team’. Thaksin didn’t assemble power? What do you call the merging of other parties into the TRT fold? That conveniently gave him a super majority which had no chance of being challenged in parliament (debates, no confidence motions etc..). The horse-trading, jockeying, and buying off that went on to help build the all-powerful Thaksin/TRT machine is well known. Yes, it’s something all parties and politicians have done, and do, to a greater or lesser extent, but the point I’m trying to make is that Thaksin was a master of political manouerving and this has had a direct bearing on how the UDD/Red movement has developed, even if can be argued that it has now become something bigger than the former PM.
And so, I’m more with you Nigel #6. Yours, mine and a few others are lonely voices on New Mandala who see things for what they are: a struggle between competing factions, with a good many unsavoury, and hypocritical characters working their magic behind the scenes. At least Duncan McCargo was able to get another viewpoint into the mainstream media, a good counterbalance to Andrew and Nich’s well-intentioned but sometimes myopic support of ‘phrai’ empowerment and the taking down of the monarchic-military-bureaucractic old order.
I can’t wait to see what all the pro-red, power-to-the-downtrodden-masses, commentators have to say if (when?) the Puea Thai party and its cronies are back in charge. Let’s see where your democratic development is then….
Charlem, Chavalit et al? You have to be kidding me. I just feel sorry for those genuine grassroots reds who do have those genuine greivances and now have such raised expectations for a brighter future…
Thai institutions series
Malaeng #1 :
Google “Paul Chambers” or get hold of some of writings on the Thai military in any library that has a first class Thai Studies section.
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
In reply to Nuomi
‘Dear Khun Abhisit’
..what a wonderfully gentle introduction to an emasculating piece of writing…if you ever had balls I doubt you can find them now. I had secretly thought that there were no real thinking Thais out there (how arrogant of me) Khun Nuomi, you have become my hero. Emotionally charged yet pointedly specific, your writing has given me hope for this country.
So..my advice to Khun Abhisit……….
1. Acknowledge that the issue is bigger than you and most likely all of parliament and as such you need outside help…
2. Get yourself some good counsel..I know of someone…..
Why aren’t more Thai social scientists doing this?
Thanks for a great touch of real life Sopranz!
Reading this really confirm my thought about upcountry red shirt. They are just an ordinary human being with fear, love, passion… Thai government should realize characteristic of Isanner better than this. They are tough, hard working people, honest and very simple human soul. They are the oldest people in Thailand who have fight with nature to survive in dry / salted land for thousand years. All they need is a chance to have a better life, but no one had truly given them better and secure life until Thaksin came.
I don’t care much about Thaksin, but I admired what he did. His government project did show that he had faith in the people and they can have better life than this. I think that Isanner was waiting for someone to give them that chance. It’s like you release a bird from a cage to see how high they can really fly and how big the world is for them.
Now just imagine you try to put the bird back in the old cage and tell them that is where they belong…sufficient life. This is just simply against all nature of man who yearn for freedom, for acceptant, for knowledge and to live a full potential of their life. What is so wrong with that? I would never underestimate their potential.