I think Charles F’s comment that “They’re no better than the rioters in East Los Angeles or Detroit” is more apt than he himself probably believes. If we look at major urban riots – and go back especially to ’60s ones like Newark, Watts, Detroit (again) etc – I believe the accepted wisdom is not that these were just staged by thrillseeking hooligans, but that they had their roots in serious social dysfunction. I believe the same holds for European riots of the past few decades (Brixton, Paris etc). So I can buy that analogy – but come to a sharply different conclusion.
Do not blame the red-shirts for failing to negotiate! There were repeated calls by the leadership for negotiations from the beginning, yet Abhisit dragged his feet while ever pressuring the army to begin the massacre! The army held out as long as politically possible, and then felt compelled to act. The fact that Abhisit has now called off the early elections is a clear sign that he never intended to have them in the first place–precisely why the UDD accepted that offer conditional on official assurances of the date of house dissolution, and new elections. All you heard in the Thai media was: “everybody knows that elections in October means house dissolution in September. The red shirts should just take his word for it.” Tellingly, Abhisit refused to grant such assurances (why not, if they were merely incidental?), and now we see why. The regime has scoffed at repeated calls by the protesters and international entities for third-party moderation, preferring a misplaced sense of honor, to peace.
No, the demonstrators knew that if they went home with only Abhisit’s word… their leaders would be rounded up, and the government would tighten its control over the movement, and in the end they would still not have democracy. The only ‘opportunity’ that the protesters blew, was perhaps the opportunity to leave without being shot.
An interesting article by Ambassador Kriangsak that underscores the class divide between the poor and the elite in this country. Regardless of the ongoing political infighting that figures in this and all democracies, the struggle of Thailand’s poor and marginalized people is clearly fueling this growing conflict.
“The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.” novelist Arthur Baldwin once wrote and it would seem that many of the protesters fit this description. If that’s the case, then what we have seen is just the start of Thailand’s troubles.
Yasin, you are missing the whole point. These photos are touching, but it does not refute the fact that many innocent people were wounded and killed by your government. Are you trying to say that every protestor deserves heavy punishment by the way?
May I also suggest you that your mindset is making it more arduous for your own country to become unite together again.
Being a red shirt supporter one has less and less support now that Bangkok is burning. Surely the professional rationalizers here can help me out. This video must surely be doctored by the fascist media, no?
“@ Srithonchai. You are wrong. Thaksin’s all time record and gold medal are absolutely safe with the 2,000 plus murders from his “war against drugs” alone, without the need even to tap into the Tak Bai massacre.”
Portman is wrong because Thaksin is not qualify because in drug war
case, the drug lords killed each other so not to get reported or to silent
the witness. That is why no rise up rally to condemn Thaksin.
To tap into the Tak Bai massacre, the Thai military is to blame.
You have not heard military blame Thaksin on Tak Bai.
Thaksin cannot stop after the damage was done. It is not on going killing like we have since April 10, 2010.
some people are missing the point. simply because he will be so bad that it will eventually be good for the country where a far more pretty picture royal family could be created and a new dynasty started or no more royal , just a family, im very royalist but appreciate that even in the uk we may lose the royal family, however there seems to be some new life at its roots with the young princes, the son of the thaiprince may turn out to be a very suitable figurehead, and due to the displacement of wives and heirs he could be the head of a new dynasty.
As always full version with photos on sopranz.blogspot.com
part 2 is about the Ratchaprasong area, i need to rest now, will be available tomorrow.
After the dispersal- Part 1
I woke up this morning and red that the protest site was under attack from the military. Turn on tv to see tanks moving into the barricades and taking them down. Panitan face on every Tv channel reassured the population this was done for their own safety and that the situation was under control. I watched out of the window and a big smoke column was coming from the direction of Rama IV. Seemed hardly under control. It was not the usual black smoke from tires but a bigger grey cloud. I waited for the sounds of shots to go down and grab my bikes, in the direction of Ngan Dumplhi. I arrived there and the street is just destroyed. Few people there, people I have never saw before who walks around taking pictures and helping put out small fires. The street is covered in filth, food everywhere fermenting in the hot sun. A small crowd hidden behind a wall stares at the tall building overlooking the soi, trying to spot snipers. The soi is completely opened in the front, no tires left. The building that at the corner with Rama IV, an office of Kasikorn Bank, has been completely burned, leaving an empty blackened shell with electric wire swinging from the light pole to the street. The building is dripping with the water that has been thrown at it to put out the fire. Very very close to the electric wires. In front of the burned scheleton of a building, two men sit, one guy is a local resident, the other a Thai journalist and the casually discuss about what is going on around the city. I talk to them for a while and then walk with the Thai journalist down Rama IV. As you get out of Ngan-Dumplhi, a barricade of tires sits in the middle of the street, down Rama IV. We passed it and walk into a destroyed area, burned buildings and phone boots, smashed ATMs and a thick layer of burned gum everywhere. My shoes stick to the pavement, before washing in dark water pool. People around are taking pictures, walking around in a stunning silence. On the street banks branches and 7-11 have been surgically burned, somehow managing to keep the buildings around undamaged. The street is completely covered in debris and the rests of burned tires create bass-relief of weird black intersecting circles. I keep walking down the big road, a man is taking pictures, stops and stares at a burned phone booth thrown on the ground. Somehow he does not seem to be able to stand that vision, while was indifferently photographing burned buildings around. He stands there, silence around. I stand close to him. “How do you feel about what is going on?” I ask. “Very bad” he says without taking his eyes off the phone boot. “very very bad’ he repeats. “and now the leaders fled, it is freedom. Everybody can do whatever they want.” He moves to staring the street, the tension accumulating on his forehead. He snaps out. “Where are you from?” he stares at me. “I am sorry, an Italian journalist just died.” “I am sorry to, for many Thais”. I walk away leaving him standing there, stamped on his face the same worries you see around on people from both sides of the political spectrum or just on friends as they sip a beer. [ continues …]
I’d like to ask Nuomi whether the 200-300 baht actually handed to individual voters is viewed as anything much more than a customary courtesy – almost on a par with a greetings card or token gift? Not to give it would look like the candidate didn’t care/show respect enough – but neither is it the real motor for getting the votes.
The description of the village head (himself elected) receiving the bulk of the money matches my impression of what really counts – based on quite a few conversations with people from various rural constituencies in the north. Given his place in the local power hierarchy, it does seem to be the kamnan (VH) acting as the conduit for sums often running into many hundreds of thousands of baht. My understanding is that a good deal of that money usually goes into the community (e.g. new/re-furbished facilities such as community meeting place) – perceived as a mark of both the status and consequently expected largesse of the kamnan….. and thus also aiding him come his own bid to be re-elected.
Thus the successful kamnan is one who is seen to “deliver” – votes up the chain to the local power-broker and benefits down to his community. Add also to the cash involved the promise of post-election gains for the village e.g. a road being improved, new roof for the school etc – all deliverable by the area power-broker through his “pull” with the relevant authorities.
Pleum (Nattakorn Devakula) has a theory that sounds flimsy at first, but I’ll mention for heck’s sake: that the arson attacks are being orchestrated by anti-red shirt business groups.
He notes that the obvious targets of red shirt rage (ASTV, Nation, Prem’s house, King Power) went left untouched. But that Channel 3 (which runs a Sorayuth’s popular Thaksin-sympathetic talkshow) and CentralWorld (Pleum claims that Suthikiart Chirathiwat is close with Thaksin).
I’m not sure I buy it though, because ASTV and Nation are so far away, and Prem’s house was sure to be heavily guarded, wheras Ch 3 and CTW were conveniently close by. But who knows, Pleum may know facts we don’t.
Innuendo, rumours, lies and half-truths flourish where censorship is the order of the day. Intelligent factual based discourse requires access to all sources of information. This is not what we have in Thailand.
The government should be held to account for the killings of civilians over the past few weeks. If Abhisit, Suthep et al have any decency, they will resign when the situation stabilises.
Nevertheless, the red leaders’ insistence that theirs is a peaceful struggle has been exposed as a lie. Was this mere rhetoric? http://play.kapook.com/vdo/show-94003. It seems not.
There are an awful lot of people viewing this in good-guys-versus-bad-guys terms. It’s much messier than that.
The ‘poor’ are visible on the streets, and the genuine desire for justice many of them express is moving. But behind them are people who are not poor, looking to get back to the trough. Chief among those is a man whose contempt for human rights and democracy were all too clear when he was in power. Many of those now cheering on the ‘revolution’ seem to have forgotten that.
There cannot be peace in Thailand so long as this man aims to return to power. The PAD – whose own illegal and lamentably unpunished activities were the reds’ inspiration for all this – will never allow it.
We all want to see genuine democracy in Thailand. In the long-run it may happen. Sadly not before a lot more blood.
A person like you makes this bad situation worst! Your people and our people are in fact all Thai who seem not to try to understand one other’s stand point. The mentality of your kind would only divide the sick country even more let alone stabilise the unrest.
All of us here are well aware of Thanksin’s corruptions and his seemingly support for the redshirts . However, few of us are still not attentive to the historical cause of the crisis, the structural reasons that gave birth of the present chaos, and the mis conduct of the recent government. You are certainly on of the few.
Also, in year 2010, being afraid of communism is a bit..umm.. out of date! what we concern are equalities in politics and economics and DEMOCRACY. So don’t bother yourself by being irritated by the communist vocabularies. It is just a way to create a rapport in the hard time. We are no longer in the cold war but the civil war.
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Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
The Red shirt movement + Amart crackdown have just opened Pandora’s box.
Just wait and see.
My condolence to all the dead people and there family’s
RIP Seh Deang. At-least you will be remembered by me and many others.
Burning, curfew
I think Charles F’s comment that “They’re no better than the rioters in East Los Angeles or Detroit” is more apt than he himself probably believes. If we look at major urban riots – and go back especially to ’60s ones like Newark, Watts, Detroit (again) etc – I believe the accepted wisdom is not that these were just staged by thrillseeking hooligans, but that they had their roots in serious social dysfunction. I believe the same holds for European riots of the past few decades (Brixton, Paris etc). So I can buy that analogy – but come to a sharply different conclusion.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Do not blame the red-shirts for failing to negotiate! There were repeated calls by the leadership for negotiations from the beginning, yet Abhisit dragged his feet while ever pressuring the army to begin the massacre! The army held out as long as politically possible, and then felt compelled to act. The fact that Abhisit has now called off the early elections is a clear sign that he never intended to have them in the first place–precisely why the UDD accepted that offer conditional on official assurances of the date of house dissolution, and new elections. All you heard in the Thai media was: “everybody knows that elections in October means house dissolution in September. The red shirts should just take his word for it.” Tellingly, Abhisit refused to grant such assurances (why not, if they were merely incidental?), and now we see why. The regime has scoffed at repeated calls by the protesters and international entities for third-party moderation, preferring a misplaced sense of honor, to peace.
No, the demonstrators knew that if they went home with only Abhisit’s word… their leaders would be rounded up, and the government would tighten its control over the movement, and in the end they would still not have democracy. The only ‘opportunity’ that the protesters blew, was perhaps the opportunity to leave without being shot.
Ambassador Kriangsak in the SMH
An interesting article by Ambassador Kriangsak that underscores the class divide between the poor and the elite in this country. Regardless of the ongoing political infighting that figures in this and all democracies, the struggle of Thailand’s poor and marginalized people is clearly fueling this growing conflict.
“The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose.” novelist Arthur Baldwin once wrote and it would seem that many of the protesters fit this description. If that’s the case, then what we have seen is just the start of Thailand’s troubles.
Long live the King
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
[…] Ambassador to Australia, Kriangsak Kittichaisaree, has an opinion piece in today’s The Sydney Morning Herald. The article is available […]
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
wow I ‘m not surprised if Thailand going be like a war!
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Yasin, you are missing the whole point. These photos are touching, but it does not refute the fact that many innocent people were wounded and killed by your government. Are you trying to say that every protestor deserves heavy punishment by the way?
May I also suggest you that your mindset is making it more arduous for your own country to become unite together again.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Links to live-blogs and eyewitness reports concerning events of May 19:
http://www.therelive.com/2010/05/may-19-thailand-crackdown-and-burning.html
Day 5 – how much longer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M9XiJoWSSs
Being a red shirt supporter one has less and less support now that Bangkok is burning. Surely the professional rationalizers here can help me out. This video must surely be doctored by the fascist media, no?
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Portman ,
“@ Srithonchai. You are wrong. Thaksin’s all time record and gold medal are absolutely safe with the 2,000 plus murders from his “war against drugs” alone, without the need even to tap into the Tak Bai massacre.”
Portman is wrong because Thaksin is not qualify because in drug war
case, the drug lords killed each other so not to get reported or to silent
the witness. That is why no rise up rally to condemn Thaksin.
To tap into the Tak Bai massacre, the Thai military is to blame.
You have not heard military blame Thaksin on Tak Bai.
Thaksin cannot stop after the damage was done. It is not on going killing like we have since April 10, 2010.
Why King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai Democracy
some people are missing the point. simply because he will be so bad that it will eventually be good for the country where a far more pretty picture royal family could be created and a new dynasty started or no more royal , just a family, im very royalist but appreciate that even in the uk we may lose the royal family, however there seems to be some new life at its roots with the young princes, the son of the thaiprince may turn out to be a very suitable figurehead, and due to the displacement of wives and heirs he could be the head of a new dynasty.
Burning, curfew
As always full version with photos on sopranz.blogspot.com
part 2 is about the Ratchaprasong area, i need to rest now, will be available tomorrow.
After the dispersal- Part 1
I woke up this morning and red that the protest site was under attack from the military. Turn on tv to see tanks moving into the barricades and taking them down. Panitan face on every Tv channel reassured the population this was done for their own safety and that the situation was under control. I watched out of the window and a big smoke column was coming from the direction of Rama IV. Seemed hardly under control. It was not the usual black smoke from tires but a bigger grey cloud. I waited for the sounds of shots to go down and grab my bikes, in the direction of Ngan Dumplhi. I arrived there and the street is just destroyed. Few people there, people I have never saw before who walks around taking pictures and helping put out small fires. The street is covered in filth, food everywhere fermenting in the hot sun. A small crowd hidden behind a wall stares at the tall building overlooking the soi, trying to spot snipers. The soi is completely opened in the front, no tires left. The building that at the corner with Rama IV, an office of Kasikorn Bank, has been completely burned, leaving an empty blackened shell with electric wire swinging from the light pole to the street. The building is dripping with the water that has been thrown at it to put out the fire. Very very close to the electric wires. In front of the burned scheleton of a building, two men sit, one guy is a local resident, the other a Thai journalist and the casually discuss about what is going on around the city. I talk to them for a while and then walk with the Thai journalist down Rama IV. As you get out of Ngan-Dumplhi, a barricade of tires sits in the middle of the street, down Rama IV. We passed it and walk into a destroyed area, burned buildings and phone boots, smashed ATMs and a thick layer of burned gum everywhere. My shoes stick to the pavement, before washing in dark water pool. People around are taking pictures, walking around in a stunning silence. On the street banks branches and 7-11 have been surgically burned, somehow managing to keep the buildings around undamaged. The street is completely covered in debris and the rests of burned tires create bass-relief of weird black intersecting circles. I keep walking down the big road, a man is taking pictures, stops and stares at a burned phone booth thrown on the ground. Somehow he does not seem to be able to stand that vision, while was indifferently photographing burned buildings around. He stands there, silence around. I stand close to him. “How do you feel about what is going on?” I ask. “Very bad” he says without taking his eyes off the phone boot. “very very bad’ he repeats. “and now the leaders fled, it is freedom. Everybody can do whatever they want.” He moves to staring the street, the tension accumulating on his forehead. He snaps out. “Where are you from?” he stares at me. “I am sorry, an Italian journalist just died.” “I am sorry to, for many Thais”. I walk away leaving him standing there, stamped on his face the same worries you see around on people from both sides of the political spectrum or just on friends as they sip a beer. [ continues …]
Too many eggs in the royal basket
I’d like to ask Nuomi whether the 200-300 baht actually handed to individual voters is viewed as anything much more than a customary courtesy – almost on a par with a greetings card or token gift? Not to give it would look like the candidate didn’t care/show respect enough – but neither is it the real motor for getting the votes.
The description of the village head (himself elected) receiving the bulk of the money matches my impression of what really counts – based on quite a few conversations with people from various rural constituencies in the north. Given his place in the local power hierarchy, it does seem to be the kamnan (VH) acting as the conduit for sums often running into many hundreds of thousands of baht. My understanding is that a good deal of that money usually goes into the community (e.g. new/re-furbished facilities such as community meeting place) – perceived as a mark of both the status and consequently expected largesse of the kamnan….. and thus also aiding him come his own bid to be re-elected.
Thus the successful kamnan is one who is seen to “deliver” – votes up the chain to the local power-broker and benefits down to his community. Add also to the cash involved the promise of post-election gains for the village e.g. a road being improved, new roof for the school etc – all deliverable by the area power-broker through his “pull” with the relevant authorities.
Reasonable summary?
Burning, curfew
Nattakorn Devakula, has noted that amongst the target of arson & destruction. Few were curiously excluded from that fate.
-Nation building
-ASTV
-Prem’s home
and the list goes on.
Since the reds is clearly the culprit, it’s surprising that their most hated enemies are offered immunity from it.
He thus concluded that this is indeed a planned attack. One that capitalized on the chaos soon after, and had known beforehand of it.
Burning, curfew
Pleum (Nattakorn Devakula) has a theory that sounds flimsy at first, but I’ll mention for heck’s sake: that the arson attacks are being orchestrated by anti-red shirt business groups.
He notes that the obvious targets of red shirt rage (ASTV, Nation, Prem’s house, King Power) went left untouched. But that Channel 3 (which runs a Sorayuth’s popular Thaksin-sympathetic talkshow) and CentralWorld (Pleum claims that Suthikiart Chirathiwat is close with Thaksin).
I’m not sure I buy it though, because ASTV and Nation are so far away, and Prem’s house was sure to be heavily guarded, wheras Ch 3 and CTW were conveniently close by. But who knows, Pleum may know facts we don’t.
Burning, curfew
Why is the army blindfolding handcuffed women and monks?
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
Dear Seeking Truth,
Innuendo, rumours, lies and half-truths flourish where censorship is the order of the day. Intelligent factual based discourse requires access to all sources of information. This is not what we have in Thailand.
Burning, curfew
The government should be held to account for the killings of civilians over the past few weeks. If Abhisit, Suthep et al have any decency, they will resign when the situation stabilises.
Nevertheless, the red leaders’ insistence that theirs is a peaceful struggle has been exposed as a lie. Was this mere rhetoric? http://play.kapook.com/vdo/show-94003. It seems not.
There are an awful lot of people viewing this in good-guys-versus-bad-guys terms. It’s much messier than that.
The ‘poor’ are visible on the streets, and the genuine desire for justice many of them express is moving. But behind them are people who are not poor, looking to get back to the trough. Chief among those is a man whose contempt for human rights and democracy were all too clear when he was in power. Many of those now cheering on the ‘revolution’ seem to have forgotten that.
There cannot be peace in Thailand so long as this man aims to return to power. The PAD – whose own illegal and lamentably unpunished activities were the reds’ inspiration for all this – will never allow it.
We all want to see genuine democracy in Thailand. In the long-run it may happen. Sadly not before a lot more blood.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Sawasdee Supapong,
A person like you makes this bad situation worst! Your people and our people are in fact all Thai who seem not to try to understand one other’s stand point. The mentality of your kind would only divide the sick country even more let alone stabilise the unrest.
All of us here are well aware of Thanksin’s corruptions and his seemingly support for the redshirts . However, few of us are still not attentive to the historical cause of the crisis, the structural reasons that gave birth of the present chaos, and the mis conduct of the recent government. You are certainly on of the few.
Also, in year 2010, being afraid of communism is a bit..umm.. out of date! what we concern are equalities in politics and economics and DEMOCRACY. So don’t bother yourself by being irritated by the communist vocabularies. It is just a way to create a rapport in the hard time. We are no longer in the cold war but the civil war.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
THAI PROTESTERS
..
http://tnews.teenee.com/politic/50814.html
..
are they innocent unarmed