Mike – I have no problem with your central assertion that the Thai media is rubbish! Or that,the censorship is suggested or imposed by government and others in position of invisible influence.I completely agree.
As I write, I am hearing yet another sad ‘sing a song’ vid. compilation of recent events on PBS spliced with pleas for whatever from those poor, unfortunates who are caught up in this mess.
Fodder for the masses, who, for the majority, accept it all meekly enough.
As areas in Bangkok are getting torched and chaos is on the streets again, the Thai public has to listen to nationalistic, propgandised, let all pull together songs.
And the sad thing? You know they won’t switch off the set.
All Abhisit had to do months ago was call elections and not be afraid of Democracy, but he and his puppet masters are in this for the money, they paid for the coup in 2006, they paid the justice system to kick out the PPP and now its coming to bite them back in the butt.
“To the government: This is only the beginning of the rebellion. Even if Reds are defeated today, anarchists will instigate violence
in the upcoming days. The battle has only begun for them. The social upheaval will be deep-rooted. Like I said before the winning side wil
end up losing the long war. But it will be years not months before the final outcome is decided. Abhisit and his gang survive for now.
We are seeing the living definition of a rebellion. The system is tarnished.”
OK, Khun Abhisit. Now that the protest is crushed, what next? This military action was not the big test. The big test is how you will now attempt to heal the huge rifts in Thai society. You would look strongest and garner the most respect if you stick to the election date that you suggested – after all, your stance was that you would go ahead with the roadmap, irrespective of the actions or thoughts of the UDD, wasn’t it? Maybe, just maybe, you can thereby lessen the risk of further turmoil.
Correction for typo error- The second sentence of the second paragraph should be read; The political INstability has brought me to the very tough journey of my life.
JohnH
I don’t know anything about the video you’re speaking of, but excuse me for thinking that it’s irrelevant. Any reasonable person knows where the vast majority of propaganda in Thailand is coming from. The people I know don’t NEED manufactured videos of injustice… they have actual injustice in their own experience! Propaganda and censorship are methods of hiding the truth. A cursory glance at the dismal state of Thai media speaks volumes about how desperate the regime is to hide the truth from the Thai people. In other words, even without personal experience in Thailand, one would know that ‘something fishy’ is going on. Fortunately for Abhisit, the rest of the world doesn’t really get to see much Thai domestic media, as it would be damning evidence in itself, when compared to international reports.
Ch9 shows video of the Ubon Provincial Hall on fire, with protesters attacking a fire truck that has shown up to put it out. Men in camouflage (not clear if they are armed) sit idly by and watch.
Find it interesting that amongst reporters at a certain English language newspapers, more of a fuss has been made about Central World being vandalized than almost anything else that has happened up to this point.
There are two related “personnel” issues here.
1. The next monarch (to make it gender-neutral)
2. The kingmakers
People often talk only about the first. The second is not less important and it may be a crucial factor for the curent crisis.
For the first, as of now, the only legal heir is the Crown Prince. But as some have pointed out, the current law allows the king to change this as he wishes. This creates uncertainty in various ways, depending on who you talk to. You can imagine the possibility of anything from a smooth transition to a sudden, mysterious change that a hollywood plot cannot match. This uncertainty also amplify the significance of the kingmakers.
For the kingmakers, the best known historical model was the Regent after the death of King Mongkut while King Chula was very young. He was powerful as a king but he once said that being a Regent was better than a king. At most transitions, many powerful royalists would jocky for a position of the kingmakers. Factions may be formed in relations to candidates and/or to the kingmakers.
Whether or not Thaksin, Prem, and many others are doing this and how, you see it by yourselves. The allegation that Thaksin desires to be a President was utterly nonsense. But, again, the rumors are telling why his opponents are afraid of him and hate him so much. The royalist perceptions of him as a threat either to the chance of other kingmakers or to the throne — some said this view comes from the top, is the source of the exaggeration of his danger to the country. It is said that only a few words from the top many years ago were taken to heart by the royalists for an all-out war against Thaksin.
Given all sorts of long-term/ short-term issues underlying the current crisis, the succession issue and the kingmaker competition may be the most critical factor that determines the urgency, degree of violence, how much compromise, and why Abhisit can take so strong a hardline despite the uncooperative army. It may also explain why the palace has been silent and did not intervene in the conflict. (Keep in mind that in 1976, the king did not intervene either. People often forget this and remember only 1973 and 1992, both of which the royalists got huge gains from the interventions.)
Catapults against M16s and tanks? Unless your are as bloody minded as some of the PAD supporters here and quite willing to see genocide being commited against your people, you will have no choice but to surrender.
Will it end the crisis in Thailand? NO! The same problems are still there and it will only get worse. The govt has proven that they can get away with surgical removal of some protesters and leaders. That will become the modus operandi from now on. Good Luck!
Obviously, there is an intellectual vacuum in the Thai society. Those who are well educated can sadly and solely think for themselves. Their education and knowledge are only used to create and preserve their privilege in the society and not to generate the contribution for the public. Take the most powerful man as an example.
My heart is broken and deeply saddened. The political stability has brought me to the very tough journey of my life. I departed from where I used to stand, I abandoned the passion to someone I used to deeply cherish and I bitterly had to admit to myself that the political crook that I detested and disgusted most is actually better than those who appear to be virtuous in many respects. I woke up from the sweet illusion and have a very hard time to learn the brutal reality.
I have already changed and so a great number of others! I believe that the seed of revolution has already been planted in the heart of the mass. Come guns and suppression, one day you shall be defeated. The surrender you see today is a temporary sacrifice made as an exchange for life of the poor compatriots. Thailand, I believe, like me, has passed the point of no return.
Long live and live well the backbone of Thailand!!!!
“You maybe don’t want to have a conversation with Giles. That is your prerogative.”
Unlike me, opinion and policy makers in this country are obliged to listen to the likes of Giles and try to engage them in meaningful discussions.
They don’t really have a choice to pretend they don’t exist and ignore them.
At this point it’s “giles” turn to stop spouting nonsense and inciting hatred and come up with some reasonable arguments and proposals, like Somsak here.
There can’t be a discussion until they behave themselves in a civilized manner and respect their counterparts.
It’s not LM that prevents them from being heard, it’s their own style of presentation.
I assume you realize that the government side knows all their repetitive arguments very well, it’s not news.
In reply to Mikeize, I agree, from my experience in a small village near Khon Kaen, exactly the same thing was happening. I found it mildly amusing the degree to which names etc were recorded. Was the red shirt rally largely funded through Thaksin et al ?..undoubtedly. To then make the conceptual jump that he is funding terrorism as the Thai govt. would have us believe is way too big a step. Today with some Thai friends, we watched the army move in to Rachaprasong. Some of my friends were in tears, the feeling being that this is the end of their dream for an equitable society or at least having some say in the running of the country. My personal opinion is that there has been a serious underestimation of the depth of hostility towards the Abhisit govt. and also the palace and as a consequence I would not rule out the emergence of an underground offensive. Of course, Thaksin may well have more powerful cards up his sleeve yet to play. I don’t think this is any where near the end of Thailand’s troubles.
The Red leaders’ surrender may simply be the end of the Rajaprasong phase of the protests, but definitely not the end of the movement or the violence – continued Twitter reports of fighting around Din Daeng and Klong Toey, as well as TV reports arson and explosions at Central World and Siam Paragon. Also big fires at BTS Chidlom and Asoke – see skyline pic – http://twitpic.com/1p2rnp
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Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Channel 3 Rama iv on fire shut down
curfew from 8pm just announced
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
We may expect another coup tonight,…. thats how I feel right now.
Then the coup make “royal pardon” to everyone or only the Abhisit’s cabinets.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Mike – I have no problem with your central assertion that the Thai media is rubbish! Or that,the censorship is suggested or imposed by government and others in position of invisible influence.I completely agree.
As I write, I am hearing yet another sad ‘sing a song’ vid. compilation of recent events on PBS spliced with pleas for whatever from those poor, unfortunates who are caught up in this mess.
Fodder for the masses, who, for the majority, accept it all meekly enough.
As areas in Bangkok are getting torched and chaos is on the streets again, the Thai public has to listen to nationalistic, propgandised, let all pull together songs.
And the sad thing? You know they won’t switch off the set.
BTW, Channel 3 is on fire and has closed down.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
All Abhisit had to do months ago was call elections and not be afraid of Democracy, but he and his puppet masters are in this for the money, they paid for the coup in 2006, they paid the justice system to kick out the PPP and now its coming to bite them back in the butt.
Sound words, wise words below,
http://twitter.com/KhunPleum
“To the government: This is only the beginning of the rebellion. Even if Reds are defeated today, anarchists will instigate violence
in the upcoming days. The battle has only begun for them. The social upheaval will be deep-rooted. Like I said before the winning side wil
end up losing the long war. But it will be years not months before the final outcome is decided. Abhisit and his gang survive for now.
We are seeing the living definition of a rebellion. The system is tarnished.”
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
OK, Khun Abhisit. Now that the protest is crushed, what next? This military action was not the big test. The big test is how you will now attempt to heal the huge rifts in Thai society. You would look strongest and garner the most respect if you stick to the election date that you suggested – after all, your stance was that you would go ahead with the roadmap, irrespective of the actions or thoughts of the UDD, wasn’t it? Maybe, just maybe, you can thereby lessen the risk of further turmoil.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Siam Paragon, Siam Cinema, Central World,… is buring, and there are no fire fighter to help around.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Correction for typo error- The second sentence of the second paragraph should be read; The political INstability has brought me to the very tough journey of my life.
Thank you.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
JohnH
I don’t know anything about the video you’re speaking of, but excuse me for thinking that it’s irrelevant. Any reasonable person knows where the vast majority of propaganda in Thailand is coming from. The people I know don’t NEED manufactured videos of injustice… they have actual injustice in their own experience! Propaganda and censorship are methods of hiding the truth. A cursory glance at the dismal state of Thai media speaks volumes about how desperate the regime is to hide the truth from the Thai people. In other words, even without personal experience in Thailand, one would know that ‘something fishy’ is going on. Fortunately for Abhisit, the rest of the world doesn’t really get to see much Thai domestic media, as it would be damning evidence in itself, when compared to international reports.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Promising start to the new democracy . Let the burning and looting begin.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Anarchy is spreading through the city with fires reported practically everywhere, including several banks.
Red shirts also running amok upcountry, in places like Udon and Khon Kaen where they torched their city halls.
Reporters in Ding Daeng warn each other that reds are now after them while another red mob is trying to break into channel 3.
They don’t realize that this marks the start of their election campaign. Revolution time is over.
On the other hand, if their opponents are waiting for “shoot on sight” orders to the army – now it’s a good time to justify them.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Ch9 shows video of the Ubon Provincial Hall on fire, with protesters attacking a fire truck that has shown up to put it out. Men in camouflage (not clear if they are armed) sit idly by and watch.
Find it interesting that amongst reporters at a certain English language newspapers, more of a fuss has been made about Central World being vandalized than almost anything else that has happened up to this point.
Assumptions about the next in line
There are two related “personnel” issues here.
1. The next monarch (to make it gender-neutral)
2. The kingmakers
People often talk only about the first. The second is not less important and it may be a crucial factor for the curent crisis.
For the first, as of now, the only legal heir is the Crown Prince. But as some have pointed out, the current law allows the king to change this as he wishes. This creates uncertainty in various ways, depending on who you talk to. You can imagine the possibility of anything from a smooth transition to a sudden, mysterious change that a hollywood plot cannot match. This uncertainty also amplify the significance of the kingmakers.
For the kingmakers, the best known historical model was the Regent after the death of King Mongkut while King Chula was very young. He was powerful as a king but he once said that being a Regent was better than a king. At most transitions, many powerful royalists would jocky for a position of the kingmakers. Factions may be formed in relations to candidates and/or to the kingmakers.
Whether or not Thaksin, Prem, and many others are doing this and how, you see it by yourselves. The allegation that Thaksin desires to be a President was utterly nonsense. But, again, the rumors are telling why his opponents are afraid of him and hate him so much. The royalist perceptions of him as a threat either to the chance of other kingmakers or to the throne — some said this view comes from the top, is the source of the exaggeration of his danger to the country. It is said that only a few words from the top many years ago were taken to heart by the royalists for an all-out war against Thaksin.
Given all sorts of long-term/ short-term issues underlying the current crisis, the succession issue and the kingmaker competition may be the most critical factor that determines the urgency, degree of violence, how much compromise, and why Abhisit can take so strong a hardline despite the uncooperative army. It may also explain why the palace has been silent and did not intervene in the conflict. (Keep in mind that in 1976, the king did not intervene either. People often forget this and remember only 1973 and 1992, both of which the royalists got huge gains from the interventions.)
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Catapults against M16s and tanks? Unless your are as bloody minded as some of the PAD supporters here and quite willing to see genocide being commited against your people, you will have no choice but to surrender.
Will it end the crisis in Thailand? NO! The same problems are still there and it will only get worse. The govt has proven that they can get away with surgical removal of some protesters and leaders. That will become the modus operandi from now on. Good Luck!
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Jit
My opinion is they have achieved their goal in ruining Abisith and his gang both internally and internationally.
The majority of Thai voters will not vote for Democrat Party in the near future owing to the incident in the last 5 – 6 days.
Abisith will never again be able to proudly appear on any international stage as a young and brilliant leader of a nation.
But this achievement costs almost a hundred civilian lives which is far too much.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Dingdaeng – red shirt ‘mob’ – ‘we have no leader – now it’s us’ 7/11 on fire. Sounds totally chaotic.
Century hotel ‘back on fire’ not clear why
PBS live
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Obviously, there is an intellectual vacuum in the Thai society. Those who are well educated can sadly and solely think for themselves. Their education and knowledge are only used to create and preserve their privilege in the society and not to generate the contribution for the public. Take the most powerful man as an example.
My heart is broken and deeply saddened. The political stability has brought me to the very tough journey of my life. I departed from where I used to stand, I abandoned the passion to someone I used to deeply cherish and I bitterly had to admit to myself that the political crook that I detested and disgusted most is actually better than those who appear to be virtuous in many respects. I woke up from the sweet illusion and have a very hard time to learn the brutal reality.
I have already changed and so a great number of others! I believe that the seed of revolution has already been planted in the heart of the mass. Come guns and suppression, one day you shall be defeated. The surrender you see today is a temporary sacrifice made as an exchange for life of the poor compatriots. Thailand, I believe, like me, has passed the point of no return.
Long live and live well the backbone of Thailand!!!!
Giles Ungpakorn on asset seizures, etc
“You maybe don’t want to have a conversation with Giles. That is your prerogative.”
Unlike me, opinion and policy makers in this country are obliged to listen to the likes of Giles and try to engage them in meaningful discussions.
They don’t really have a choice to pretend they don’t exist and ignore them.
At this point it’s “giles” turn to stop spouting nonsense and inciting hatred and come up with some reasonable arguments and proposals, like Somsak here.
There can’t be a discussion until they behave themselves in a civilized manner and respect their counterparts.
It’s not LM that prevents them from being heard, it’s their own style of presentation.
I assume you realize that the government side knows all their repetitive arguments very well, it’s not news.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
PBS –
Central World fire bombed – parts on fire. M79’s used against the building?
Firefights still going on/ shots still being fired.
Red shirts retreated to the front of Central World, waiting for the army?
35 people dead/ injured – not clear.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
In reply to Mikeize, I agree, from my experience in a small village near Khon Kaen, exactly the same thing was happening. I found it mildly amusing the degree to which names etc were recorded. Was the red shirt rally largely funded through Thaksin et al ?..undoubtedly. To then make the conceptual jump that he is funding terrorism as the Thai govt. would have us believe is way too big a step. Today with some Thai friends, we watched the army move in to Rachaprasong. Some of my friends were in tears, the feeling being that this is the end of their dream for an equitable society or at least having some say in the running of the country. My personal opinion is that there has been a serious underestimation of the depth of hostility towards the Abhisit govt. and also the palace and as a consequence I would not rule out the emergence of an underground offensive. Of course, Thaksin may well have more powerful cards up his sleeve yet to play. I don’t think this is any where near the end of Thailand’s troubles.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
The Red leaders’ surrender may simply be the end of the Rajaprasong phase of the protests, but definitely not the end of the movement or the violence – continued Twitter reports of fighting around Din Daeng and Klong Toey, as well as TV reports arson and explosions at Central World and Siam Paragon. Also big fires at BTS Chidlom and Asoke – see skyline pic – http://twitpic.com/1p2rnp
Things also seems to be kicking off in the Northeast. See the following report and pics from Ubon – http://memock.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/ubon-red-shirt-protests-turn-violent/.