The ABC is to be congratulated for choosing Nick to interview. It is so important that the world is made aware of what is clearly emerging: the govt’s frequent statements that the live ammunition is only used in self-defence & against armed protesters are blatant lies; they are not only targeting unarmed protesters, but also individuals who are clearly marked as ‘press’ or ‘media’; many of the casualties & deaths are from military snipers, who are clearly aware of their targets. To choose an articulate & responsible journalist who has been targeted & can speak in the most human terms about what that experience was like, is definitely the way to go.
Incidentally, I wasn’t saying I was agreeing with the letter.
From a personal perspective I’ve been quite surprised by how vehemently a number of my Thai friends have come out on the pro-Government crackdown anti-red shirt camp.
As other people have commented a crucial issue is the fact that the majority people on both sides of the debate completely incapable of considering the other side’s view and formulating a more balanced perspective.
When there are such wild discrepancies in the reports form opposing sides it has me questioning if I too am biased when there is little of an accepted centrepoint to compare to.
[…] von Augenzeugen wurden im Internet hochgeladen. Nick Nostitz war zum Beispiel in der тАЮTodeszone“. Vaitor und Riding out the Economy haben auch ihre […]
More tiresome rant about the monarchy which gets easy ratings here but what are your ideas for an appropriate political platform for the red shirts in order to solve the inequities in Thai society that urban Sino-Thais can also buy into and help make work? Since the reds are unwilling to posit their political platform and don’t even seem to want elections any more, perhaps you academics can help. Otherwise, your position just appears by default to lead to the dead end of a secession of the North and Northeast to form a dirt poor state.
Macca #62 & TW #63, I absolutely agree with your comments re. the current state of education & the lack of training in thinking skills, “allowing students to present and defend their views freely”, as TW puts it. There’s a need for teacher-training to be entirely re-vamped, so that thinking skills can begin as early as possible in ALL subjects. (e.g. the predominant visual art activity in Thai schools is ‘colouring-in’, which is entirely destructive to free expression, but easy for the teachers because it’s not messy; in comprehension/debriefing exercises following reading activities, the format is usually ‘multiple choice’, with one answer seen by the teacher to be correct – this goes all the way through, right up to undergrad finals.) No wonder the students get low scores in IQ & EQ tests!
I recently worked for a semester with a group of Yr 10 (Form 4) students, giving them simple exercises in creative & argumentative writing & oral argumentation, despite the initial grave misgivings of the school admin. Despite initial resistance, the commitment & motivation of the students, as well as their emotional maturity, & their final scores increased dramatically – in one semester! One student, who had been previously cast as a ‘slow-learner’ emerged as a very creative original thinker. For years he had failed tests & had been given up by his teachers. Now he is beginning to see that he is actually a talented learner, whose ideas are worth expressing & arguing.
In an environment where adults are the products of schooling as it currently exists here, is it any wonder that negotiation skills are so clumsy, blinkered and primitive?
Government as well as the vast majority of private schools & tertiary institutions in Bangkok are deplorable. Outside, they are much worse. Until there is a genuine effort to rectify this, there is little hope of ever having a democratic state.
Nigel #2 I have observed that vote buying is absolutely rampant in Australia also. You won’t believe what those Aussie politicians promise, bridges, schools, highways, sponsored solar panels and dare I mention it, tax breaks.Yes that most exquisite massage of the hip pocket nerve.
And do you know what these crazy Aussies call these kick backs? That’s right, “POLITICS”. What a wacky bunch.
Hello from Germany! May i quote a post a translated part of your blog with a link to you? I’ve tried to contact you for the topic The crushing of the Red Shirts, but i got no answer, please reply when you have a moment, thanks, Spruch [No problem with quoting or translating material from New Mandala, with appropriate attribution and a link back to the original. Andrew Walker]
Wang Dong – good point. Presumably the Reds were aware of this too. And yet they have deliberately pushed the situation as far as possible fully aware that the government also is under considerable pressure to ‘restore order’.
From the sporadic shootings, bombings, torchings etc it seems that this is indeed the main strategy that is now unfolding – to create a sense of chaos, and to raise the body count. It certainly looks good when last week the Reds were backed into a corner by the broad acceptance of the road map. It always helps the cause to have a pile of bodies. And last year, despite Thaksin’s claims on CNN of hundreds dead, they weren’t able to show the corpses. This time they have managed the whole show much better.
But what next? If there is no neutral institution in Thailand, and no value in the independent commissions, then this is what we are left with.
Until after a few years a strong man steps in to restore peace, law and order. The kind of man who sorted out the drugs situation for example?
Great to see you at Rachaprasong yesterday afternoon Nick. You told me briefly what you went through but until I read your report just now I had no idea of how harrowing it was.
I remember bumping into you several times on the “frontlines” during the PAD protests in April 2009. Our paths have crossed less frequently during the current crisis because this one has been taking place over a much wider area. But whenever I do see you, I know I’m in the right place, the place where it’s happening.
I respect and admire your courage and professionalism Nick, and I also respect your right to take a couple of days off.
Bless you and your family, and look forward to seeing you again soon!
Jeremy
PS: Hope your Dad is OK.
Ironically, it is precisely the establishment’s persistent portrayal of the king as final arbiter of conflicts that seemed impossible to solve by normal political means that now impacts negatively on the monarchy (Ocober 1976 had to be edited out of this ideology already). The longer it keeps quiet (which it should, because it ought to be above politics), the more the monarchy loses, certainly from the perspective of the red shirts. In this sense, Abhisit more than the UDD is anti-monarchy.
A few months ago, the above establishment position was expressed by a member with the words, “As for the monarchy–we Thais need somebody who is located above us.” But if He does not act (and He should not act, because He is supposed to be above politics), where could we find any continued justification for this statement?
And just for a bit of added spice go on over to PPT and read the copy of Peter Hartcher’s article for the Sydney Morning Herald, “The Scheming King”. Wow! Together with last months ABC program on royal succession and this piece it is clear that Australian journalists, and, I would suggest Australian foreign policy is just not going to toe the Thai royalist party line any longer.
OMG, what am I suggesting, that Australian governments have some kind of control over what the Australian media has been regurgitating all theses years? Nah! it’s just a coincidence.
[…] be reading this week about the crisis in Thailand is New Mandala. Below is a snippet of an interesting post about the language we choose to use in describing political violence (please note that the post is […]
THAILAND: MILITARY MUST HALT RECKLESS USE OF LETHAL FORCE
Thai soldiers must immediately stop firing live ammunition into several large areas in Bangkok where anti-government protesters are gathered, Amnesty International said today.
“Eye-witness accounts and video recordings show clearly that the military is firing live rounds at unarmed people who pose no threat whatsoever to the soldiers or to others,” said Benjamin Zawacki, Amnesty International’s Thailand specialist. “This is a gross violation of a key human right–the right to life”.
“Deliberately firing live ammunition at unarmed people, whether they be protesters or otherwise and who pose no credible threat to anyone else, is unlawful”, said Zawacki.
Since 13 May, when the government began “Operat………………….
We get your point, but you can’t see the forest for the trees in circumstances such as these.
In every bloody crackdown from Tienanmen Square, to the West Bank, and event to Kent State, the relevant authorities always seem to roll out the same set of justifications for, what in the clear light of day is, disproportionate use of force. I can name some of them from the top of my head.
1. The soldiers were provoked beyond reason
2. The leaders led their followers to their death
3. The protesters were hoping for bloodshed
4. Extremists were using protesters as human shields
5. The protesters had weapons
6. The protesters became violent and aggressive.
7. The leaders are cowards, hiding behind followers
Some of this is probably true, but when weighted against the surrounding circumstances, it is nothing but cheap point scoring from the government side.
The Thai government is trying to “deny” in what they did in the past few days, after the CNN report showed soldiers with sniper shooting civilian, and also some few photos of dead protesters.
As I observe, here is what they do:
In press conference by Panitan, he used English to deny the actions. Also, in an interview with the Nation TV, he “warned” the reporter to “be careful” with such news reports.
In recent live TV, Abhisit used English, denying any brutal actions.
Why? Because, to me, he wants to use his media to deny CNN, BBC or any other foreign media reports. Let’s say he tries to twist the fact that soldiers use violence force against people. Well, he’s been doing this to some of Thai folks, and those who believe whatever the government feed.
Funny thing is, yesterday, a MP from Democrat Party said he would submit some notice to the U.N. saying that Thaksin is an international terrorist and asked every countries to arrest him. In National Broadcast Television, even showed a picture claiming Thaksin was shopping in a shopping mall in Paris, France. And say “hey, you (the red shirt) see? your hero left you fight for him while he’s shopping in Paris”.
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Interview with Nick Nostitz
The ABC is to be congratulated for choosing Nick to interview. It is so important that the world is made aware of what is clearly emerging: the govt’s frequent statements that the live ammunition is only used in self-defence & against armed protesters are blatant lies; they are not only targeting unarmed protesters, but also individuals who are clearly marked as ‘press’ or ‘media’; many of the casualties & deaths are from military snipers, who are clearly aware of their targets. To choose an articulate & responsible journalist who has been targeted & can speak in the most human terms about what that experience was like, is definitely the way to go.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Sceptic: Thanks, will do, missed that one.
Incidentally, I wasn’t saying I was agreeing with the letter.
From a personal perspective I’ve been quite surprised by how vehemently a number of my Thai friends have come out on the pro-Government crackdown anti-red shirt camp.
As other people have commented a crucial issue is the fact that the majority people on both sides of the debate completely incapable of considering the other side’s view and formulating a more balanced perspective.
When there are such wild discrepancies in the reports form opposing sides it has me questioning if I too am biased when there is little of an accepted centrepoint to compare to.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
@Leeyiankun #1
Everyone remebers that when Thaksin was in power, his comment on UN’s interference was “UN is not our father”.
So it’s only fair that this time they wont’ step in.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] von Augenzeugen wurden im Internet hochgeladen. Nick Nostitz war zum Beispiel in der тАЮTodeszone“. Vaitor und Riding out the Economy haben auch ihre […]
Bangkok: This is a massacre
[…] 20.00 New Mandala […]
Too many eggs in the royal basket
More tiresome rant about the monarchy which gets easy ratings here but what are your ideas for an appropriate political platform for the red shirts in order to solve the inequities in Thai society that urban Sino-Thais can also buy into and help make work? Since the reds are unwilling to posit their political platform and don’t even seem to want elections any more, perhaps you academics can help. Otherwise, your position just appears by default to lead to the dead end of a secession of the North and Northeast to form a dirt poor state.
Day 5 – how much longer?
Macca #62 & TW #63, I absolutely agree with your comments re. the current state of education & the lack of training in thinking skills, “allowing students to present and defend their views freely”, as TW puts it. There’s a need for teacher-training to be entirely re-vamped, so that thinking skills can begin as early as possible in ALL subjects. (e.g. the predominant visual art activity in Thai schools is ‘colouring-in’, which is entirely destructive to free expression, but easy for the teachers because it’s not messy; in comprehension/debriefing exercises following reading activities, the format is usually ‘multiple choice’, with one answer seen by the teacher to be correct – this goes all the way through, right up to undergrad finals.) No wonder the students get low scores in IQ & EQ tests!
I recently worked for a semester with a group of Yr 10 (Form 4) students, giving them simple exercises in creative & argumentative writing & oral argumentation, despite the initial grave misgivings of the school admin. Despite initial resistance, the commitment & motivation of the students, as well as their emotional maturity, & their final scores increased dramatically – in one semester! One student, who had been previously cast as a ‘slow-learner’ emerged as a very creative original thinker. For years he had failed tests & had been given up by his teachers. Now he is beginning to see that he is actually a talented learner, whose ideas are worth expressing & arguing.
In an environment where adults are the products of schooling as it currently exists here, is it any wonder that negotiation skills are so clumsy, blinkered and primitive?
Government as well as the vast majority of private schools & tertiary institutions in Bangkok are deplorable. Outside, they are much worse. Until there is a genuine effort to rectify this, there is little hope of ever having a democratic state.
Too many eggs in the royal basket
Nigel #2 I have observed that vote buying is absolutely rampant in Australia also. You won’t believe what those Aussie politicians promise, bridges, schools, highways, sponsored solar panels and dare I mention it, tax breaks.Yes that most exquisite massage of the hip pocket nerve.
And do you know what these crazy Aussies call these kick backs? That’s right, “POLITICS”. What a wacky bunch.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Hello from Germany! May i quote a post a translated part of your blog with a link to you? I’ve tried to contact you for the topic The crushing of the Red Shirts, but i got no answer, please reply when you have a moment, thanks, Spruch [No problem with quoting or translating material from New Mandala, with appropriate attribution and a link back to the original. Andrew Walker]
Day 5 – how much longer?
Wang Dong – good point. Presumably the Reds were aware of this too. And yet they have deliberately pushed the situation as far as possible fully aware that the government also is under considerable pressure to ‘restore order’.
From the sporadic shootings, bombings, torchings etc it seems that this is indeed the main strategy that is now unfolding – to create a sense of chaos, and to raise the body count. It certainly looks good when last week the Reds were backed into a corner by the broad acceptance of the road map. It always helps the cause to have a pile of bodies. And last year, despite Thaksin’s claims on CNN of hundreds dead, they weren’t able to show the corpses. This time they have managed the whole show much better.
But what next? If there is no neutral institution in Thailand, and no value in the independent commissions, then this is what we are left with.
Until after a few years a strong man steps in to restore peace, law and order. The kind of man who sorted out the drugs situation for example?
Assumptions about the next in line
Is the question of the succession of the Crown Prince somewhat complicated by the perception that he and Thaksin have business ties?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Great to see you at Rachaprasong yesterday afternoon Nick. You told me briefly what you went through but until I read your report just now I had no idea of how harrowing it was.
I remember bumping into you several times on the “frontlines” during the PAD protests in April 2009. Our paths have crossed less frequently during the current crisis because this one has been taking place over a much wider area. But whenever I do see you, I know I’m in the right place, the place where it’s happening.
I respect and admire your courage and professionalism Nick, and I also respect your right to take a couple of days off.
Bless you and your family, and look forward to seeing you again soon!
Jeremy
PS: Hope your Dad is OK.
Too many eggs in the royal basket
Ironically, it is precisely the establishment’s persistent portrayal of the king as final arbiter of conflicts that seemed impossible to solve by normal political means that now impacts negatively on the monarchy (Ocober 1976 had to be edited out of this ideology already). The longer it keeps quiet (which it should, because it ought to be above politics), the more the monarchy loses, certainly from the perspective of the red shirts. In this sense, Abhisit more than the UDD is anti-monarchy.
A few months ago, the above establishment position was expressed by a member with the words, “As for the monarchy–we Thais need somebody who is located above us.” But if He does not act (and He should not act, because He is supposed to be above politics), where could we find any continued justification for this statement?
Assumptions about the next in line
And just for a bit of added spice go on over to PPT and read the copy of Peter Hartcher’s article for the Sydney Morning Herald, “The Scheming King”. Wow! Together with last months ABC program on royal succession and this piece it is clear that Australian journalists, and, I would suggest Australian foreign policy is just not going to toe the Thai royalist party line any longer.
OMG, what am I suggesting, that Australian governments have some kind of control over what the Australian media has been regurgitating all theses years? Nah! it’s just a coincidence.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Richard,
I suggest you take a look at Bangkok Pundit’s demolition of Kh. Napas letter.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/is-cnn-s-coverage-really-biased#comments
Bangkok: This is a massacre
[…] be reading this week about the crisis in Thailand is New Mandala. Below is a snippet of an interesting post about the language we choose to use in describing political violence (please note that the post is […]
Interview with Nick Nostitz
Well said Amnesty International !
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGPRE011602010&lang=e
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL PRESS RELEASE
AI Index: PRE 01/160/2010
17 May 2010
THAILAND: MILITARY MUST HALT RECKLESS USE OF LETHAL FORCE
Thai soldiers must immediately stop firing live ammunition into several large areas in Bangkok where anti-government protesters are gathered, Amnesty International said today.
“Eye-witness accounts and video recordings show clearly that the military is firing live rounds at unarmed people who pose no threat whatsoever to the soldiers or to others,” said Benjamin Zawacki, Amnesty International’s Thailand specialist. “This is a gross violation of a key human right–the right to life”.
“Deliberately firing live ammunition at unarmed people, whether they be protesters or otherwise and who pose no credible threat to anyone else, is unlawful”, said Zawacki.
Since 13 May, when the government began “Operat………………….
Click the link above for full article.
Day 5 – how much longer?
Portman, Nok, etc.
We get your point, but you can’t see the forest for the trees in circumstances such as these.
In every bloody crackdown from Tienanmen Square, to the West Bank, and event to Kent State, the relevant authorities always seem to roll out the same set of justifications for, what in the clear light of day is, disproportionate use of force. I can name some of them from the top of my head.
1. The soldiers were provoked beyond reason
2. The leaders led their followers to their death
3. The protesters were hoping for bloodshed
4. Extremists were using protesters as human shields
5. The protesters had weapons
6. The protesters became violent and aggressive.
7. The leaders are cowards, hiding behind followers
Some of this is probably true, but when weighted against the surrounding circumstances, it is nothing but cheap point scoring from the government side.
Interview with Nick Nostitz
The Thai government is trying to “deny” in what they did in the past few days, after the CNN report showed soldiers with sniper shooting civilian, and also some few photos of dead protesters.
As I observe, here is what they do:
In press conference by Panitan, he used English to deny the actions. Also, in an interview with the Nation TV, he “warned” the reporter to “be careful” with such news reports.
In recent live TV, Abhisit used English, denying any brutal actions.
Why? Because, to me, he wants to use his media to deny CNN, BBC or any other foreign media reports. Let’s say he tries to twist the fact that soldiers use violence force against people. Well, he’s been doing this to some of Thai folks, and those who believe whatever the government feed.
Funny thing is, yesterday, a MP from Democrat Party said he would submit some notice to the U.N. saying that Thaksin is an international terrorist and asked every countries to arrest him. In National Broadcast Television, even showed a picture claiming Thaksin was shopping in a shopping mall in Paris, France. And say “hey, you (the red shirt) see? your hero left you fight for him while he’s shopping in Paris”.
Everything, they throw to Thaksin.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Getting a royally sponsored funeral for civil servants is quite ordinary. And Seh Daeng was a royally appointed Lt Gen.