Nick was very lucky to get caught in the enemy line and nothing happened to him. The others were not shot go get killed either. They were in forbidden places together with Nick.
Proves more the sincerity of the govt forces than anything else.
Maybe someone promised him a job after the red dictatorship wins?
He definitely needs one.
At first CRES claimed there is sniper at the roof of high building, after Gen. Kattiya (Sae Daeng) had been shot, they said there are no sniper
and then again, After CNN reported video of sniper army, CRES claims there are “men in military uniform had infiltrated and killed red shirt protesters to incite violence.
Now, there is nothing to take responsibility for.
Good Job!!!
There is a source from the police at Rama IV said that the Marine actually went in the help rescue the 3 injured from the Police flat after the attack, but this is not confirmed.
This is not what Abhisit and his cronies are saying, they say only shooting people with guns, but its funny how all people shot so far are civilians with no “war weapons”.
Only the army are killing and shooting people with war weapons.
BANGKOK – TWO Thai anti-government ‘Red Shirt’ demonstrators were shot on Sunday during fresh clashes in Bangkok, said an AFP photographer.
On a road close to the protesters’ main base, two men were shot and left badly wounded as several hundred demonstrators confronted troops, he said.
The pair were among ‘Red Shirt’ protesters throwing stones, Molotov cocktails and firecrackers under an expressway when they were shot. They were taken away by ambulances soon after the incident.
Intense clashes between soldiers and Red Shirts around their protest zone in a downtown commercial district have left at least 24 dead and more than 200 wounded since Friday. — AFP
I read NM since long and i have used pieces on my website. It is useful, inspiring and source of news for me. I am not a professor, just a lover of south east asia as whole, a traveller. I just feel hurt and pangs at the news. While i am not a red shirts symphathizer, i cannot accept this kind of repression too. I wonder if it was taken in a serious consideration by both sides the CrisisGroup Alert that u can read here .
Any claim that there ever was or is any kind of electoral integrity in Thailand is just laughable.
Our collective knowledge of the machinations of all previous and present governments and juntas – and their so called representatives – should be sufficient to remind us all of the reality of ‘democracy’ in Thailand; an excuse for corrupt and officially sanctioned theft on a grand scale.
This opinion is not only my own, but is also shared by the many Thai I know or have known personally. And by the way, these people are from a wide range of socio-economic and geographic backgrounds, so form, at least in my view, a solid basis for this particular truth.
Democracy in Thailand has always been a sham, so faith in the electoral process – if ever there was any – was doomed from the start.
I can’t agree with those who take the author of this article at face value and accept his discussion as a “reasonable and balanced overview”. Whereas the tone may be so, the content is most definitely not.
Just to address two points:
“The offer of a roadmap leading to a November election was the first real concession to the UDD by the Abhisit government. We can’t really call this aggressive behaviour, even if as some think it wasn’t an honest offer.”
Why would anyone call this “aggressive behaviour”? Is there such a thing as a “straw denial”?
It simply wasn’t an honest offer, as Abhisit’s subsequent refusals to meet reasonable demands showed clearly, and was therefore nothing like a “concession to the UDD”.
What Mr. Abbey is trying to imply is “even if it wasn’t honest, it was a real concession”: self-contradictory nonsense at its finest.
But it’s the kind of nonsense that puts Abhisit in the best possible light, which is really the intention of this so-called attempt to avoid “rhetoric and propaganda”.
“He could do what he is now doing in trying to isolate the Rajprasong camp.”
This would be laughable if it weren’t a blatant attempt to confuse what the PM “says” his intentions were with the reality of the sniper campaign that began with the shooting of Seh Daeng and has continued until the time of this writing.
No matter what time Mr. Abbey wrote his piece on Sunday morning, to suggest that using snipers to create an environment of terror on the streets of Bangkok is somehow indicative of Abhisit’s humane refusal to take “the hardest line open to him” is absurd and offensive.
I think it is worthwhile remembering that terrorist campaigns, like the selective random killings that we have seen in Bangkok over the past few days, are usually understood as a form asymmetric warfare. That is, terrorism is the weapon of the weak against the strong.
I think that Abhisit’s choice of a campaign of terror indicates clearly how he and his military advisors see their situation vis a vis the Reds: a weak, illegitimate, jerry-rigged simulacrum of democratic government faced with a powerful, concerted and not easily frightened movement of many hundreds of thousands of Thai citizens.
The problem with such a perception, whether it is accurate or not, is that even a 96 pound weakling can overcome the most vicious nakleng with a spotter and a sniper rifle.
Most of the best shots and videos are from foreign media, why is that?
A note to Thai media, start doing your job!
“All of us who professionally use the mass media are the shapers of society. we can vulgarize that society. We can brutalize it. Or we can help lift it onto a higher level.”
~William Bernbach, of DDB Needham Worldwide, 1989.
Since the 1940s the military, using the monarchy as cover and in cooperation with big business families (generally grouped as the Bangkok Elites), has been in control of Thailand with various thin layers of civilian and political leaders rising and falling at the whim of the military.
Until someone is able to control the military, lock them in their
barracks, banned from any involvement in business, politics and any
actions inside the country, attempts at democracy will fail in Thailand.
rule 1: should be all troops back to barracks permanently
rule 2: the police in charge of managing normal criminal and crowd control activities
rule 3: the military forbidden to provide support of any sort, funding, logistics, weapons or even training for any organisation or group
rule 4: the fiction that the military has a duty to protect the monarchy to be debunked and their allegiance to the people and the government currently in power confirmed
then the various groups in Thailand can resolve what to do in a civilised non-violent and democratic process
Army/Government is desperate to get women and children out, but the protestors are there to protest and do not want to leave, they want the government to get out.
The “other” reason apart from safety is that normally when the Thai army does massacres, they bag the bodies of the men (its all men) and then burn them or dump them at sea it is said.
They then claim these men “run off” and are in hiding or with new wives and that is the excuse of them going missing.
Much much more difficult to do that with old people, women and children – and this is why they are desperate to get them out, once they are out they can go in and kill everyone as they have already told all the media to get out so no evidence will ever be left.
However, only a few people left, most old people, women and children are still there – this will prevent a full scale massacre from happening.
I live in the Rajaparop area and have been walking around most of the morning. I also had to go to the PhiyaThai 1 hospital to get some medicine. I see (or hear) no supporting evidence of the army shooting indiscriminately and medics and there was certainly none of that discussion at the hospital. What i do see, is evidence of grenade attacks on the troops, with small craters and blast ‘scars’ on the road surface.What would be really valuable as commentary is some discussion in this forum of the Red Shirts prior diatribes from the stage, especially Natawut’s on Friday about what he would do to Bangkok. Also, Arisman’s previous comments made in ChaingMai. While the violence is awful, perhaps there is some balance to be found rather than just attacking the Government?
As to the ‘who makes up the army’ a very good question; the troops in my area are largely conscript and when asked about this current event, as opposed to last Songkran’s events in exactly the same area, the answer is very much the same. We have our duty. What i did personally find quite interesting was the level of professionalism with the officers and having had to negotiate the area on Saturday, far from being the rabid homicidal maniacs that the press are making them out to be, they were calm and professional. (I’m sure that comment alone will get plenty of thumbs down). In discussion, it would seem that this has move from a protest to a rebellion, (Kaboht) as they were saying. ‘If it was a protest we would not be here…’ (i can hardly wait to see how many thumbs down anything pro or even neutral to the army gets…..)
Moved on Rama4 behind protesters. High velocity rounds incoming. Some injured. Ambulance shot at. Burning tyre rolled, live rounds followed
2 minutes ago via TweetDeck
NEW FACTS EMERGING: more complex than I thought. Saedaeng was exposing many facts about accepting DP bribes re- the “roadmap”; also no core leaders on platform at this time just ordinary folk; the masses wanted to “dissolve” Parliament, which is why they continued to protest; many not happy when core leaders accepting on face value Abhisit’s vague statements and promises. But did they? Threats too: Vera’s son was threatened with a gun to the head. He said on stage to leave his family alone. He left the leadership. The problem was not regarding the “roadmap” per se, it was over Suthep taking responsibility for mass murder.
The soldiers one sees on the street according to a number of reliable informants are actually not all from Thai army but constituted by many front line paid mercenaries: Karen KNU, Khmer border soldiers (Khmer spoken among soldiers on one youtube clip among soldiers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agLBIWDKWkI); ex-“Red Khmer”, PAD’s former SiiWichai thugs, and others all set up by Newin and supplied by the government with weaponry (M16, M79, and sniper rifles) because Abhisit could not get many Thai officers to participate in the killing field…Look closely at the pics for ethnicity…(any clues) Any ideas out there?? It is seemingly more complex than appearances would have it…
Tony, that M79 video, already posted by StanG, was probably some sort of flare gun. A grenade launcher should not smoke any where near as much as that. You can have a look at youtube videos of real M79 being fired to see what I mean.
I think some of the comments above are naiive in the extreme. The Red shirts are highly factionalised. A hard core element seeks violent, fascist ends. A mainstream element is highly representative of popular, rural-based disaffection with the Bangkok elite.
The government is also factionalised (the police deeply so), and the army is uncertain. Abhisit has shown a certain political courage – that his roadmap for peace has collapsed supports this view.
Chavalit has played a dirty “unseen” role in prewvious events (1992) because of his control of motorcycle/soi-boy gangs. He and others are doing the same again – hence the violence in the suburbs. The counter-reaction will be a curfew and the emergence of tanks, and perhaps a coup d’etat – with the tacit backing of the palace.
The background, of course, is uncertainty around the succession and the relative positions of the various elites, and social movements such as the rural poor. The only thing that is certain about the current violence is that it will not resolve this central tension.
you sum up well but you missed some points :
1. the shootings by govt to that people who burned tyres at the traffic stop. military usually has the skill to disperse this kind of protest without shooting directly. why don’t Govt put intel agent on the red camp and try to find those ones called terrorists, not just shooting from distance. Is there the only thing govt can do? shooting ?
2. you also forgot that the reds accepted the road plan and would like to go home IF government needs to show responsibility of the death casualties, not just say sorry but keep doing what we are seeing now (shootings).
we are talking about how cruel the shootings by govt.
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Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Bangkok Pundit has links to details of casualties. 25 killed so far, all civilians.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Nick was very lucky to get caught in the enemy line and nothing happened to him. The others were not shot go get killed either. They were in forbidden places together with Nick.
Proves more the sincerity of the govt forces than anything else.
Maybe someone promised him a job after the red dictatorship wins?
He definitely needs one.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
At first CRES claimed there is sniper at the roof of high building, after Gen. Kattiya (Sae Daeng) had been shot, they said there are no sniper
and then again, After CNN reported video of sniper army, CRES claims there are “men in military uniform had infiltrated and killed red shirt protesters to incite violence.
Now, there is nothing to take responsibility for.
Good Job!!!
Bangkok at war
There is a source from the police at Rama IV said that the Marine actually went in the help rescue the 3 injured from the Police flat after the attack, but this is not confirmed.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Throw stones and get bullets back.
This is not what Abhisit and his cronies are saying, they say only shooting people with guns, but its funny how all people shot so far are civilians with no “war weapons”.
Only the army are killing and shooting people with war weapons.
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/SEAsia/Story/STIStory_527259.html
May 16, 2010
2 ‘Red Shirt’ protesters shot
BANGKOK – TWO Thai anti-government ‘Red Shirt’ demonstrators were shot on Sunday during fresh clashes in Bangkok, said an AFP photographer.
On a road close to the protesters’ main base, two men were shot and left badly wounded as several hundred demonstrators confronted troops, he said.
The pair were among ‘Red Shirt’ protesters throwing stones, Molotov cocktails and firecrackers under an expressway when they were shot. They were taken away by ambulances soon after the incident.
Intense clashes between soldiers and Red Shirts around their protest zone in a downtown commercial district have left at least 24 dead and more than 200 wounded since Friday. — AFP
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
I read NM since long and i have used pieces on my website. It is useful, inspiring and source of news for me. I am not a professor, just a lover of south east asia as whole, a traveller. I just feel hurt and pangs at the news. While i am not a red shirts symphathizer, i cannot accept this kind of repression too. I wonder if it was taken in a serious consideration by both sides the CrisisGroup Alert that u can read here .
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Any claim that there ever was or is any kind of electoral integrity in Thailand is just laughable.
Our collective knowledge of the machinations of all previous and present governments and juntas – and their so called representatives – should be sufficient to remind us all of the reality of ‘democracy’ in Thailand; an excuse for corrupt and officially sanctioned theft on a grand scale.
This opinion is not only my own, but is also shared by the many Thai I know or have known personally. And by the way, these people are from a wide range of socio-economic and geographic backgrounds, so form, at least in my view, a solid basis for this particular truth.
Democracy in Thailand has always been a sham, so faith in the electoral process – if ever there was any – was doomed from the start.
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
I can’t agree with those who take the author of this article at face value and accept his discussion as a “reasonable and balanced overview”. Whereas the tone may be so, the content is most definitely not.
Just to address two points:
“The offer of a roadmap leading to a November election was the first real concession to the UDD by the Abhisit government. We can’t really call this aggressive behaviour, even if as some think it wasn’t an honest offer.”
Why would anyone call this “aggressive behaviour”? Is there such a thing as a “straw denial”?
It simply wasn’t an honest offer, as Abhisit’s subsequent refusals to meet reasonable demands showed clearly, and was therefore nothing like a “concession to the UDD”.
What Mr. Abbey is trying to imply is “even if it wasn’t honest, it was a real concession”: self-contradictory nonsense at its finest.
But it’s the kind of nonsense that puts Abhisit in the best possible light, which is really the intention of this so-called attempt to avoid “rhetoric and propaganda”.
“He could do what he is now doing in trying to isolate the Rajprasong camp.”
This would be laughable if it weren’t a blatant attempt to confuse what the PM “says” his intentions were with the reality of the sniper campaign that began with the shooting of Seh Daeng and has continued until the time of this writing.
No matter what time Mr. Abbey wrote his piece on Sunday morning, to suggest that using snipers to create an environment of terror on the streets of Bangkok is somehow indicative of Abhisit’s humane refusal to take “the hardest line open to him” is absurd and offensive.
I think it is worthwhile remembering that terrorist campaigns, like the selective random killings that we have seen in Bangkok over the past few days, are usually understood as a form asymmetric warfare. That is, terrorism is the weapon of the weak against the strong.
I think that Abhisit’s choice of a campaign of terror indicates clearly how he and his military advisors see their situation vis a vis the Reds: a weak, illegitimate, jerry-rigged simulacrum of democratic government faced with a powerful, concerted and not easily frightened movement of many hundreds of thousands of Thai citizens.
The problem with such a perception, whether it is accurate or not, is that even a 96 pound weakling can overcome the most vicious nakleng with a spotter and a sniper rifle.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Most of the best shots and videos are from foreign media, why is that?
A note to Thai media, start doing your job!
“All of us who professionally use the mass media are the shapers of society. we can vulgarize that society. We can brutalize it. Or we can help lift it onto a higher level.”
~William Bernbach, of DDB Needham Worldwide, 1989.
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
Since the 1940s the military, using the monarchy as cover and in cooperation with big business families (generally grouped as the Bangkok Elites), has been in control of Thailand with various thin layers of civilian and political leaders rising and falling at the whim of the military.
Until someone is able to control the military, lock them in their
barracks, banned from any involvement in business, politics and any
actions inside the country, attempts at democracy will fail in Thailand.
rule 1: should be all troops back to barracks permanently
rule 2: the police in charge of managing normal criminal and crowd control activities
rule 3: the military forbidden to provide support of any sort, funding, logistics, weapons or even training for any organisation or group
rule 4: the fiction that the military has a duty to protect the monarchy to be debunked and their allegiance to the people and the government currently in power confirmed
then the various groups in Thailand can resolve what to do in a civilised non-violent and democratic process
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Army/Government is desperate to get women and children out, but the protestors are there to protest and do not want to leave, they want the government to get out.
The “other” reason apart from safety is that normally when the Thai army does massacres, they bag the bodies of the men (its all men) and then burn them or dump them at sea it is said.
They then claim these men “run off” and are in hiding or with new wives and that is the excuse of them going missing.
Much much more difficult to do that with old people, women and children – and this is why they are desperate to get them out, once they are out they can go in and kill everyone as they have already told all the media to get out so no evidence will ever be left.
However, only a few people left, most old people, women and children are still there – this will prevent a full scale massacre from happening.
Abhisit and his cronies are really evil !
Bangkok at war
I live in the Rajaparop area and have been walking around most of the morning. I also had to go to the PhiyaThai 1 hospital to get some medicine. I see (or hear) no supporting evidence of the army shooting indiscriminately and medics and there was certainly none of that discussion at the hospital. What i do see, is evidence of grenade attacks on the troops, with small craters and blast ‘scars’ on the road surface.What would be really valuable as commentary is some discussion in this forum of the Red Shirts prior diatribes from the stage, especially Natawut’s on Friday about what he would do to Bangkok. Also, Arisman’s previous comments made in ChaingMai. While the violence is awful, perhaps there is some balance to be found rather than just attacking the Government?
As to the ‘who makes up the army’ a very good question; the troops in my area are largely conscript and when asked about this current event, as opposed to last Songkran’s events in exactly the same area, the answer is very much the same. We have our duty. What i did personally find quite interesting was the level of professionalism with the officers and having had to negotiate the area on Saturday, far from being the rabid homicidal maniacs that the press are making them out to be, they were calm and professional. (I’m sure that comment alone will get plenty of thumbs down). In discussion, it would seem that this has move from a protest to a rebellion, (Kaboht) as they were saying. ‘If it was a protest we would not be here…’ (i can hardly wait to see how many thumbs down anything pro or even neutral to the army gets…..)
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Lost for words.
Unusual for me.
Very powerful words and photos.
The video too, I’m stunned.
This incident will resurface many many times.
Stay safe.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Army shooting at Ambulances and medics again. Why oh why is the government allowing them to shoot at unarmed people.
Its a national and worldwide disgrace now !
From BBC man
http://twitter.com/aleithead
Moved on Rama4 behind protesters. High velocity rounds incoming. Some injured. Ambulance shot at. Burning tyre rolled, live rounds followed
2 minutes ago via TweetDeck
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
NEW FACTS EMERGING: more complex than I thought. Saedaeng was exposing many facts about accepting DP bribes re- the “roadmap”; also no core leaders on platform at this time just ordinary folk; the masses wanted to “dissolve” Parliament, which is why they continued to protest; many not happy when core leaders accepting on face value Abhisit’s vague statements and promises. But did they? Threats too: Vera’s son was threatened with a gun to the head. He said on stage to leave his family alone. He left the leadership. The problem was not regarding the “roadmap” per se, it was over Suthep taking responsibility for mass murder.
The soldiers one sees on the street according to a number of reliable informants are actually not all from Thai army but constituted by many front line paid mercenaries: Karen KNU, Khmer border soldiers (Khmer spoken among soldiers on one youtube clip among soldiers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agLBIWDKWkI); ex-“Red Khmer”, PAD’s former SiiWichai thugs, and others all set up by Newin and supplied by the government with weaponry (M16, M79, and sniper rifles) because Abhisit could not get many Thai officers to participate in the killing field…Look closely at the pics for ethnicity…(any clues) Any ideas out there?? It is seemingly more complex than appearances would have it…
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
More “live rounds” being fired at anyone and everything.
http://twitter.com/photo_journ
Flasbangs incoming. Hiding behind laundry rack. F*ck that was close. Live rounds in coming
15 minutes ago via Seesmic
Army peppering 1st tire barricade. #redshirts pinned
26 minutes ago via Seesmic
AND
Army sniper just spotted using a hospital upper floor to fire down at civilians.
Well done Abhisit, break all the rules !
http://twitter.com/RichardBarrow
Sniper spotted in Ratchawithi Hospital. @forestmat tells us civilians at Victory Monument are running for cover.
6 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Tony, that M79 video, already posted by StanG, was probably some sort of flare gun. A grenade launcher should not smoke any where near as much as that. You can have a look at youtube videos of real M79 being fired to see what I mean.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I think some of the comments above are naiive in the extreme. The Red shirts are highly factionalised. A hard core element seeks violent, fascist ends. A mainstream element is highly representative of popular, rural-based disaffection with the Bangkok elite.
The government is also factionalised (the police deeply so), and the army is uncertain. Abhisit has shown a certain political courage – that his roadmap for peace has collapsed supports this view.
Chavalit has played a dirty “unseen” role in prewvious events (1992) because of his control of motorcycle/soi-boy gangs. He and others are doing the same again – hence the violence in the suburbs. The counter-reaction will be a curfew and the emergence of tanks, and perhaps a coup d’etat – with the tacit backing of the palace.
The background, of course, is uncertainty around the succession and the relative positions of the various elites, and social movements such as the rural poor. The only thing that is certain about the current violence is that it will not resolve this central tension.
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
Army sniper just spotted using a hospital upper floor to fire down at civilians.
Well done Abhisit, break all the rules !
http://twitter.com/RichardBarrow
Sniper spotted in Ratchawithi Hospital. @forestmat tells us civilians at Victory Monument are running for cover.
6 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
dear Coco Tan, i read bangkok post too
you sum up well but you missed some points :
1. the shootings by govt to that people who burned tyres at the traffic stop. military usually has the skill to disperse this kind of protest without shooting directly. why don’t Govt put intel agent on the red camp and try to find those ones called terrorists, not just shooting from distance. Is there the only thing govt can do? shooting ?
2. you also forgot that the reds accepted the road plan and would like to go home IF government needs to show responsibility of the death casualties, not just say sorry but keep doing what we are seeing now (shootings).
we are talking about how cruel the shootings by govt.