This article seems to be written by someone who doesn’t like the Reds much and is dripping with bias.
I’ve worked extensively in the north, with all different social groups, and must say the general widespread antipathy towards the Thai elite is very easily felt.
The Reds are but one expression of this and the rumbling undercurrent of widespread discontent in Thailand.
New Mandala, can you please find better more balanced writers in Chiang Mai in future?
Yes, you are watching the right video, thanks for finding it, I updated my blog accordingly.
At 20 second mark there are shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera, but, more significantly, at around 1 min mark there is a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right, and it’s probably not the first one since people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers for a few seconds earlier.
Is it a third hand or reds are going to own up for that shooter?
I think you seriously under-estimate the amount of red shirt support around Chiang Mai. The number of people at the protest was low and the people in the city might be avoiding politics, but if you go to any of the villages around Chiang Mai red support is widespread and evident.
Yesterday at the local market significant number of sellers and customers were wearing their Truth Today shirts and other red gear and all the radios were tuned to the Red Shirt channel. Also look at the local election results here a few months ago, there was overwhelming support for the red candidate,despite a campaign fought with large amounts of money by established candidates. The protests at the the Hotal behind Wat Pra Singh are not huge and rarely attract many people, but the contingent from Chiang Mai that went to the protests last month, involved more that 150 cars/trucks and unknown numbers of people. Red support is only getting stronger with the government policies failing to support anyone and widespread access to the People Channel. If you talk to students or middle class people the level of support varies, but talk to the working class people in the village and you hear a different story.
I am in Chiangrai and there is no news. The TV is disgraceful, chewing gum for the eyes in the face of history being made in Thailand. I have searched for the UDD news in vain. If anyone has a news source please post it… or better, perhaps email me. The last site I had has gone down, I had got it from a posting, the de facto government in Bangkok did too, no doubt.
My heart is very heavy right now. No news makes one hope for the best but imagine the worst. What a truly vile regime we suffer under in Thailand right now.
#91
Zaw Tun is right in questioning recent poster comment on this site which claims the man is past history in redshirt circles. For a start, I don’t think even Nick Nostitz has a direct line to the 3 Wannabes. Secondly, they have made no serious attempt to show their distance. And indeed may be living off past in-payments anyway.
Thaksin cannot and should not escape his share of the blame for the deaths of protestors, government employees and bystanders. Some of the blame should also fall on the victims. They knew only too well how vicious Thai security forces can be, but probably gambled on immortality through martyrdom. They would have been far better off living and educating the next generation how to survive the constant pitfalls of Thai politics.
(1) There was talk of a demise, which was sensibly scotched by an appearance. Not exactly a particularly proactive approach though. And one never sees any sign of solidarity there. Which would be yet another way they could make the nature of their interaction clear. They are in the limelight. If they can’t handle that, they are in the wrong job. And I say that from a position of some sympathy with her. Note, I definitely call it a job. The raw rumor would undoubtedly block this site. But, I observe that it never goes away, and is never chased away. That is hardly the mark of a serious contender. It’s a position that requires charisma. If one can’t swim, one is wasting one’s time as a lifeguard.
(2) It would be a step in the right direction for one to demonstrate one’s abilities to the public. After decades, this has never once happened. My guess is that even the current role is a burden. One has the wealth to retire any time. We mere mortals are judged by our public acts, not by what might have happened behind closed doors. Would you employ this person on the known record? In my case I would say no, unless good evidence is produced. Likely future performance, at well over 50 years old, is bound to be predicted by past appearances and actions.
Your last statement is arguable. I would basically agree with you. He certainly put some effort into it, and was at times conscious of public perception. Thus, employable.
Coup d’tat would not happen right away, i think there will be Yellow shirts Vs Red shirts clash before that, the army will use the same 19 sep accuses.
@StanG: “I’m not a forensic expert, of course, but if there was indeed a “third hand” picking up targets to provoke indiscriminate shooting and blame it on the government, he was a likely victim.”
You could well be right about this, but just for the record I would like to note that this is the same explanation that the Iranian government gave for the killing of Neda Soltan last summer.
It is getting ridiculous by the minute, I don’t know if anybody realize that either the red shirt or the army could be facing at least one of their own friends or family members in each skirmish. It’s horrifying to think that any second now you could kill or hurt those you knew.
All this could have been avoided if the coup didn’t happen, if they just follow the law and take Thaksin to court if they felt that he abused his power. But because it did, all the works that the older generation who had fought for democracy is now gone.
How can there be trusted in the army when they themselves clear show favoritism and thirst for politics. How can there be trust in the current government when they themselves used to be on the otherside demanding the same thing the red shirt is doing now.
It was not on the front page, but somewhere in “Others” section, those personally I’ve missed it. however in this interview ultra-right Gen. Pathompong (who doesn’t make a secret of being PAD supporter) touches upon the divisions within the army and his version on such divisions. his definition of “bad” and “good” soldiers are particularly characteristic ! (no wonder “good soldiers” deployed snipers on the roofs to shoot mob in head, and for that their commanders were blown up by “bad soldiers” 🙂 )
so, it is pretty obvious that it is not simply a matter of “unruly mob got armed”, or even simplification such as “mob Vs army” issue. it is in fact deeper than that – there is a power confrontation between different factions in army itself. (which is actually nothing new, as history of Thai coups shows; as well as, according to some recently written book – what’s actually going on in South, different commanders simply fighting each others for zones of influence and then blaming it on “insurgents”)
certainly without some or other group of army supporting some or other group of mob (say, as in 1992 Chamlong, being ex-Gen himself, had failed against Suchinda due to lack of such support, although in 2006-2008 he won because he & his PAD had it) – that particular group of mob would NEVER be able to even pull up some more or less decent protest, what to speak win !
therefore, I think at very least one should not over-simplify the situation and merely blame it on Thaksin paying mob, or on Suthep’s / Abhisit’s / Anupong’s incompetence. to have a realistic picture it is necessary to attempt to grasp the whole of it, with all those seemingly concealed sides.
although as saying goes, the best lie is the one hidden in plain sight ! like many things are actually still possible to discern from the very same biased and heavily self-censoring Thai Media (as Nation).
related stuff:
The Watermelon Question by Nirmal
(Note sentence: “Snipers were shooting from roofs“)
he also mentions Bkk Post article
(funny, it mentions “mango soldiers” too – just today I thought about possibility of such phrasing ! 😀 )
also, BP has latest post where he refers to Matichon quoting Sae Daeng, mentioning snipers again.
The AK 47 photo mean very little. Think about it for a moment. This is one picture of one guy. Even if it was a hundred pictures of different people, the balance of weaponry is way on the side of the government forces. Most of the footage shows red shirts fighting with sticks and rocks. It is not a balance in any way.
[…] – including foreign tourists, since the battles even raged through the backpacker ghetto of Khao San Road. Alternative media has been able to get the truth out, despite government attempts to control the […]
I look forward to a link being provided for the “video of one red with AK-47”. Likewise clarification of which videos clearly show “unknown shooters firing at the soldiers, one from the second floor of a building at Kok Wua.” – as opposed to at the protesters, for example? Anything but clear in any of the videos I’ve been viewing – e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src&feature=channel .
As for “that Thai FAQ dude” being surprised by UDD’s level of organisation (yes, actually he speaks about their catering, logistics, sound system, guards maintaining discipline etc – not “urban warfare”), he can be forgiven for not having kept up with the efforts that UDD have been putting into getting themselves organised for the last 12 months – the results of which are clearly visible and much commented on since the beginning of the current protest. But….. seeing as we’re spuriously asked to consider the invented “urban warfare” aspect of what he didn’t say….. just what would be so surprising about “Isanese farmers” having the same military skills from their time as Army conscripts as the current batch of “Isanese farmers” conscripted into uniform have? Actually, of course, and self-evidently….. neither is particularly skilled at it.
Guess Yoda, NM Skeptik and your kind didn’t count on this not being the Nation, do you?
Believe what you must. It changes NOTHING.
This country is hidden behind a veil of lies for decades. It’ll take more than a couple of thousands of people to blow the wind of change to lift it.
I for one am hopeful! The change is coming, and the Dems are too rigid to embrace it. 60+ years is already too long for the life cycle of these vultures!
contradicts the Thai government’s declaration that soldiers only fired live rounds into the air during the Saturday night’s clashes with “Red Shirts” protesters, in which at least 21 people were killed… Thai soldiers can be seen firing their automatic riffles directly at the protesters…
“We visited different hospitals Sunday morning and we’ve seen several victims with bullet wounds in the head (…) It’s really hard to believe the official declaration that mentions only rubber bullets and troops firing into the air”, says Cyril Payen, FRANCE 24’s correspondent …
clash was triggered by the explosion of a grenade, the origin of which remains unknown.
“The explosion killed seven soldiers and wounded a colonel of the Thai security forces in his head”, says FRANCE 24’s Payen.
While the victims of the explosion were being taken to the nearest hospital, the army retaliated by firing into the crowd…
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Red Shirts in Chiang Mai
This article seems to be written by someone who doesn’t like the Reds much and is dripping with bias.
I’ve worked extensively in the north, with all different social groups, and must say the general widespread antipathy towards the Thai elite is very easily felt.
The Reds are but one expression of this and the rumbling undercurrent of widespread discontent in Thailand.
New Mandala, can you please find better more balanced writers in Chiang Mai in future?
War at Khao San
Here is the video of someone shooting at the soldiers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7oKenp6ZLw
War at Khao San
Steve #61
Yes, you are watching the right video, thanks for finding it, I updated my blog accordingly.
At 20 second mark there are shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera, but, more significantly, at around 1 min mark there is a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right, and it’s probably not the first one since people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers for a few seconds earlier.
Is it a third hand or reds are going to own up for that shooter?
War at Khao San
Media War, # 41,
Excellent Youtube clip, thanks.
The Thai military will ensure People Channel TV closed. If this youtube clip falls into their hands, it is the end of Abhisit/Ammat.
People will know who started shooting on the 10th of April.
Sathit-controlled TV stations gave one-sided story of what was happening. They are very scared of this Youtube clip.
Red Shirts in Chiang Mai
I think you seriously under-estimate the amount of red shirt support around Chiang Mai. The number of people at the protest was low and the people in the city might be avoiding politics, but if you go to any of the villages around Chiang Mai red support is widespread and evident.
Yesterday at the local market significant number of sellers and customers were wearing their Truth Today shirts and other red gear and all the radios were tuned to the Red Shirt channel. Also look at the local election results here a few months ago, there was overwhelming support for the red candidate,despite a campaign fought with large amounts of money by established candidates. The protests at the the Hotal behind Wat Pra Singh are not huge and rarely attract many people, but the contingent from Chiang Mai that went to the protests last month, involved more that 150 cars/trucks and unknown numbers of people. Red support is only getting stronger with the government policies failing to support anyone and widespread access to the People Channel. If you talk to students or middle class people the level of support varies, but talk to the working class people in the village and you hear a different story.
Red Shirts in Chiang Mai
I am in Chiangrai and there is no news. The TV is disgraceful, chewing gum for the eyes in the face of history being made in Thailand. I have searched for the UDD news in vain. If anyone has a news source please post it… or better, perhaps email me. The last site I had has gone down, I had got it from a posting, the de facto government in Bangkok did too, no doubt.
My heart is very heavy right now. No news makes one hope for the best but imagine the worst. What a truly vile regime we suffer under in Thailand right now.
Red Shirts in Chiang Mai
I’m disappointed that the Chieng Mai red’s leaders fail to show the struggle in a more meaningful ways.
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
#91
Zaw Tun is right in questioning recent poster comment on this site which claims the man is past history in redshirt circles. For a start, I don’t think even Nick Nostitz has a direct line to the 3 Wannabes. Secondly, they have made no serious attempt to show their distance. And indeed may be living off past in-payments anyway.
Thaksin cannot and should not escape his share of the blame for the deaths of protestors, government employees and bystanders. Some of the blame should also fall on the victims. They knew only too well how vicious Thai security forces can be, but probably gambled on immortality through martyrdom. They would have been far better off living and educating the next generation how to survive the constant pitfalls of Thai politics.
Imagining a new mandala in mainland Southeast Asia
worst blog ever!!!
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
#103
(1) There was talk of a demise, which was sensibly scotched by an appearance. Not exactly a particularly proactive approach though. And one never sees any sign of solidarity there. Which would be yet another way they could make the nature of their interaction clear. They are in the limelight. If they can’t handle that, they are in the wrong job. And I say that from a position of some sympathy with her. Note, I definitely call it a job. The raw rumor would undoubtedly block this site. But, I observe that it never goes away, and is never chased away. That is hardly the mark of a serious contender. It’s a position that requires charisma. If one can’t swim, one is wasting one’s time as a lifeguard.
(2) It would be a step in the right direction for one to demonstrate one’s abilities to the public. After decades, this has never once happened. My guess is that even the current role is a burden. One has the wealth to retire any time. We mere mortals are judged by our public acts, not by what might have happened behind closed doors. Would you employ this person on the known record? In my case I would say no, unless good evidence is produced. Likely future performance, at well over 50 years old, is bound to be predicted by past appearances and actions.
Your last statement is arguable. I would basically agree with you. He certainly put some effort into it, and was at times conscious of public perception. Thus, employable.
Red Shirts in Chiang Mai
There is a story on “Business Spectator” here on the likely economic impact of the current clash (very bad).
War at Khao San
Coup d’tat would not happen right away, i think there will be Yellow shirts Vs Red shirts clash before that, the army will use the same 19 sep accuses.
War at Khao San
@StanG: “I’m not a forensic expert, of course, but if there was indeed a “third hand” picking up targets to provoke indiscriminate shooting and blame it on the government, he was a likely victim.”
You could well be right about this, but just for the record I would like to note that this is the same explanation that the Iranian government gave for the killing of Neda Soltan last summer.
War at Khao San
It is getting ridiculous by the minute, I don’t know if anybody realize that either the red shirt or the army could be facing at least one of their own friends or family members in each skirmish. It’s horrifying to think that any second now you could kill or hurt those you knew.
All this could have been avoided if the coup didn’t happen, if they just follow the law and take Thaksin to court if they felt that he abused his power. But because it did, all the works that the older generation who had fought for democracy is now gone.
How can there be trusted in the army when they themselves clear show favoritism and thirst for politics. How can there be trust in the current government when they themselves used to be on the otherside demanding the same thing the red shirt is doing now.
War at Khao San
I think it is worth reading this article on Nation dated Apr 8 (that’s 2 day before Sat Apr 10 event on Kow Wua) :
“Pathompong urges military to act again”
It was not on the front page, but somewhere in “Others” section, those personally I’ve missed it. however in this interview ultra-right Gen. Pathompong (who doesn’t make a secret of being PAD supporter) touches upon the divisions within the army and his version on such divisions. his definition of “bad” and “good” soldiers are particularly characteristic ! (no wonder “good soldiers” deployed snipers on the roofs to shoot mob in head, and for that their commanders were blown up by “bad soldiers” 🙂 )
so, it is pretty obvious that it is not simply a matter of “unruly mob got armed”, or even simplification such as “mob Vs army” issue. it is in fact deeper than that – there is a power confrontation between different factions in army itself. (which is actually nothing new, as history of Thai coups shows; as well as, according to some recently written book – what’s actually going on in South, different commanders simply fighting each others for zones of influence and then blaming it on “insurgents”)
certainly without some or other group of army supporting some or other group of mob (say, as in 1992 Chamlong, being ex-Gen himself, had failed against Suchinda due to lack of such support, although in 2006-2008 he won because he & his PAD had it) – that particular group of mob would NEVER be able to even pull up some more or less decent protest, what to speak win !
therefore, I think at very least one should not over-simplify the situation and merely blame it on Thaksin paying mob, or on Suthep’s / Abhisit’s / Anupong’s incompetence. to have a realistic picture it is necessary to attempt to grasp the whole of it, with all those seemingly concealed sides.
although as saying goes, the best lie is the one hidden in plain sight ! like many things are actually still possible to discern from the very same biased and heavily self-censoring Thai Media (as Nation).
related stuff:
The Watermelon Question by Nirmal
(Note sentence: “Snipers were shooting from roofs“)
he also mentions Bkk Post article
(funny, it mentions “mango soldiers” too – just today I thought about possibility of such phrasing ! 😀 )
also, BP has latest post where he refers to Matichon quoting Sae Daeng, mentioning snipers again.
War at Khao San
The AK 47 photo mean very little. Think about it for a moment. This is one picture of one guy. Even if it was a hundred pictures of different people, the balance of weaponry is way on the side of the government forces. Most of the footage shows red shirts fighting with sticks and rocks. It is not a balance in any way.
War at Khao San
[…] – including foreign tourists, since the battles even raged through the backpacker ghetto of Khao San Road. Alternative media has been able to get the truth out, despite government attempts to control the […]
War at Khao San
#42
I look forward to a link being provided for the “video of one red with AK-47”. Likewise clarification of which videos clearly show “unknown shooters firing at the soldiers, one from the second floor of a building at Kok Wua.” – as opposed to at the protesters, for example? Anything but clear in any of the videos I’ve been viewing – e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src&feature=channel .
Likewise – a source for “Relative of a killed colonel said soldiers had taken in a lot of fire from higher ground, too”? The source for the curiously understated mention of Seh Daeng and “ronins” is presumably that ever-dependable bastion of propaganda-free reporting…… The Nation? [ http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Ronin-warriors-fire-M79-grenades-at-troops-Khattiy-30127000.html ]
As for “that Thai FAQ dude” being surprised by UDD’s level of organisation (yes, actually he speaks about their catering, logistics, sound system, guards maintaining discipline etc – not “urban warfare”), he can be forgiven for not having kept up with the efforts that UDD have been putting into getting themselves organised for the last 12 months – the results of which are clearly visible and much commented on since the beginning of the current protest. But….. seeing as we’re spuriously asked to consider the invented “urban warfare” aspect of what he didn’t say….. just what would be so surprising about “Isanese farmers” having the same military skills from their time as Army conscripts as the current batch of “Isanese farmers” conscripted into uniform have? Actually, of course, and self-evidently….. neither is particularly skilled at it.
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AATZQeLIUCY&feature=channel ]
War at Khao San
Guess Yoda, NM Skeptik and your kind didn’t count on this not being the Nation, do you?
Believe what you must. It changes NOTHING.
This country is hidden behind a veil of lies for decades. It’ll take more than a couple of thousands of people to blow the wind of change to lift it.
I for one am hopeful! The change is coming, and the Dems are too rigid to embrace it. 60+ years is already too long for the life cycle of these vultures!
War at Khao San
Exclusive FRANCE 24 footage show soldiers firing directly at protesters
I guess this is the video of that grenade attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnLf0GgYTu4
(although some comment it wasn’t, but either just some hand made one or a petrol bomb, and that M79 was fired later)