The evangelical left have managed to transform the red-shirt movement from a fascist personality cult into a righteous and true uprising of the poor by the power of wishful thinking alone. Hallelujah it’s a miracle!
Will Dr. Shinawatra be wearing the Patek Phillipe, or one of the Rolex’s to address his class war comrades this evening?
I was out there, and while the Red demo got support, as expected, I wouldn’t call it massive. It wasn’t larger than several demos by the Yellows. Like them or not, both groups enjoy considerable support and considerable loathing.
And that’s the point: society is divided along many lines that are not always clear cut or neatly packaged, and that’s not exactly a secret to the “establishment” or those running the country.
I understand why most posters here are offended when people characterize the Reds as rural bumpkins and dupes.
But, in essence, isn’t Silenced doing the same with the Bangkok middle class? Because they don’t agree with him, they are all brainwashed unthinking dupes of elite propaganda.
Perhaps there are also many among them who recognize the injustices prevalent in society, but can’t support the Reds for various reasons that might be very legitimate, such as the track record and hypocrisy of some Red leaders, and the past actions of the group during Songkran and other instances.
I don’t think Thailand is going to be able to solve this conflict until both sides can take a good honest look at themselves.
Neither the Yellows nor Reds have done that. And the Red cheering section here at New Mandala certainly hasn’t done it either.
i see alot of energy in the red shirt movements, but no focus. just empty slogans, targeted at various scapegoats (IMHO the whole of thai society should share some measure of blame for the country’s problems) with no thought actually given to how to fix the system.
you can also ‘awaken’ me of course by pointing to red shirt manifesto tha actually has some intelligible demands rather than vague calls to stop injustice, or dissolve parliament (why???) etc.
as you are now ‘awakened’ tell everyone:
whats the solution to thailand’s problems?
* crickets chirping *
pardon me for being sardonic, but don’t you think your peers would be more sympathetic to the red shirt movement if they actually offered a pratically achievable alternative to the current system, pie in the sky is fine, but don’t expect everyone to buy into it.
at the moment all it seems to be is a huge amount effort just to get a variation of the same theme; with thaksin as the head of the new ammataya, and the ubiquitous double standards now in his favour again.
this is not democracy, this is just mob rule.
don’t forget 65% did not vote for him.
in this case red shirts are just a more incompetent version of the yellow shirts, and you are no more awakened than anybody else.
Frank Lee – I assumed that you’ve read and study Eric Arthur Blair’s works very well so you bring up his name. Anyhow, I hope you really
“learned from other eye-witnesses whom I believe to be reliable”
if you did so but still stand for what you believe then I have no qualm with that.
“because of his (Thaksin) machinations to monopolize the political power of the legislature, executive and judiciary”
You see Frank, we are living in the country that is using parliamentary system, constitution monarchy to be precise. In this system, there’s no clear cut between legislative and executive branch. You are accusing Thaksin of machinations to monopolize the political power, but you know what? eat it up, this is how ordinary parliamentary system works.
Lastly, how can you blamed Thaksin for the injustice you received from the court? isn’t he in the same situation you were??
Actually I agree with you on the election, I dont think there’s gona be any, unless, some sort of military coup took place.
You are absolutely right. Nobody can hide behind any possible excuse for dealing with poison like heroin.
I also agree with you that Hla Oo has provided a very soft approach in justifying use of this trade by military junta. Without going into slandering, I would suspect that he may have some personal legacy reasons like support from military a general (as mentioned in Chapter-1). But we have to wait and see his stand.
Since 1962 Burma has been ruled by inefficient superstitious and paranoid generals who used numerology and astrology to drive their policies. I trust everyone know about this fact, so I would not delve into details. You have to also understand that most of these generals do not know anything except for war as they were brought up fighting wars and think that military as well as heavy handed approaches are only solutions for everything. Greed adds fuel to this. Most of the income generated in or by Burma lines up these military generals’ pockets. The face that Than Shwe’s bunkers have been found lined up with billion dollars and his daughter’s wedding are few examples of this. His grandson made a right (although cocky) statement in Singapore that “We control all resources of Burma and no one can touch us”. And all this is happening while Burma is considered to be one of the poorest countries in world. Than Shwe from ruling party and Tay Za from business side control all resources in Burma. And of course, trading of heroin is one of the aspects of whole story. Many companies and countries will and do take advantage of whole situation. Than Shwe did not even let international aide to land in Burma after cyclone in Irrawaddy. Go figure.
We have to understand the root cause of civil war. Please excuse my limited knowledge, however I believe that this was is due to policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing policies of military junta and democratic system worked effectively from 1948 to 1961. We should not forget that Ang San Suu Kyi is still the only elected leader so far.
Please join me to that Burmese people get enough strength to them and some sense to poor soldiers to throw away this military junta and bring peace and prosperity to this beautiful and resourceful country.
Why no Thaksin photo? I’ll speculate … It could of course spoil the man’s “mystery” (his face is only to be seen when he reveals himself at special moments such as phone-ins, etc …), and also reinforce the Red Shirts’ identity as being a “people’s movement” of the “silent majority”. Although it is like comparing apples & oranges, it cold be seen as similar to the tea-parties/tea-partiers in the US (you dont see them running around with signs of Glen Beck – they’re a “people’s movement” – they’re doing it for “the people”, right? – likely whoever they view “the people” to be).
Likewise the entire wacky Hindu brahmin pouring-blood-at-the-gate facade could be a similar display of mystery (or mysticism), which appeals to the mystical/spiritual “Thai-ness” of some Thais – or the “real Thais” – who understand this (although from what Reuters reported, no one seems to be making sense out of it) … just my speculation though.
“economic sanctions and international isolation has forced Burmese generals into a tight corner where the heroin trade is the only way to arm the large army and fight the long civil war.
Pepsi and Unocal and other large foreign businesses were forced to withdraw from Burma and the textile export industry was snuffed out in its infancy so Burmese were forced to flood USA and others with her only viable commodity left, the heroin.”
This rationalisation is in reality more relevant to the insurgent armies than to the Tatmadaw which can’t possibly hide behind that excuse. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny chronologically (not the first time Hla Oo has shown this tendency to be fast and loose with facts), since the sanctions did not happen until several years after the collapse of the CPB in 1989 and Khin Nyunt’s subsequent ceasefire deals with its mutinous ethnic contingents.
Everyone became involved in the heroin trade for funds more readily generated than by other means, including the CIA during the Vietnam War. Funds to procure arms and munitions in the case of ethnic armies, even their Communist leaders who were initially very anti-drugs relented when Chinese aid dried up. Funds to feather their nests in the case of junta officers who did a roaring trade in partnership with the KMT remnants.
Hla Oo’s disingenuous linking of the sanctions and the narcostate activities smacks of spinning a junta apologist line.
@Bh Varapanyo – It’s not the case that sociologists study “the West” and anthropologists study “the Rest!” There are quite a few anthropologists of Europe (including some big names: Nancy Scheper-Hughes, a rather famous anthropologist from UC Berkeley, wrote her first book on Ireland; Michael Herzfeld writes on modern Greece and Italy in addition to Thailand, etc.) and there’s even an entire society for the anthropology of Europe – there are plenty of sociologists who work on Southeast Asia. Where we differ from sociologists is in our theoretical and methodological focus.
Ralph K #15: “We can also remember the rites performed by the current royals each year to make amends for their ancestor’s murder of King Taksin.” Where? When? What? More info please.
Khun Sub, your superior mind is acknowledged, but I simply cannot understand what you are getting out of this. Personal satisfaction? Forgotten a virtue as basic as “Party loyalty”??
chris beale:
“The days of the American-backed fascist construct “Thailand” are collapsing.”
Chris Beale must be dreaming. Could somebody please wake him up?
As a neutral observer, how come I still don’t see how the red shirts are gonna win this war even after the massive turn-out of protesters in the past few days.
Michelle – it’s not often I agree with Ralph : but yes – congratulations on “nice work” indeed.
However, I do suspect KHMER Buriram may be “a special case” as you say.
It would be very interesting to see fieldwork like yours from the LAO areas of Isaarn. Quite a different picture, I suspect – though I only have anecdotal evidence to go on.
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Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
Ok, you make the good case, Andrew Johnson.
May Thailand be free from anthropologists AND western sociologists!
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
The evangelical left have managed to transform the red-shirt movement from a fascist personality cult into a righteous and true uprising of the poor by the power of wishful thinking alone. Hallelujah it’s a miracle!
Will Dr. Shinawatra be wearing the Patek Phillipe, or one of the Rolex’s to address his class war comrades this evening?
Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
Bh Varapanyo would no doubt be surprised to know that there is a Thai anthropologist whose field is a community in New South Wales, south of Sydney.
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
I was out there, and while the Red demo got support, as expected, I wouldn’t call it massive. It wasn’t larger than several demos by the Yellows. Like them or not, both groups enjoy considerable support and considerable loathing.
And that’s the point: society is divided along many lines that are not always clear cut or neatly packaged, and that’s not exactly a secret to the “establishment” or those running the country.
I understand why most posters here are offended when people characterize the Reds as rural bumpkins and dupes.
But, in essence, isn’t Silenced doing the same with the Bangkok middle class? Because they don’t agree with him, they are all brainwashed unthinking dupes of elite propaganda.
Perhaps there are also many among them who recognize the injustices prevalent in society, but can’t support the Reds for various reasons that might be very legitimate, such as the track record and hypocrisy of some Red leaders, and the past actions of the group during Songkran and other instances.
I don’t think Thailand is going to be able to solve this conflict until both sides can take a good honest look at themselves.
Neither the Yellows nor Reds have done that. And the Red cheering section here at New Mandala certainly hasn’t done it either.
Translation of The Economist on succession
There are two posts at PPT that take a critical perspective on the Economist’s article and leader. Worth a read because they are not just accepting of the line in these:
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/king-country-chaos-–-part-i/
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/king-country-chaos-%E2%80%93-part-ii/
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
Despite what the mainstream media is reporting, the turnout yesterday was massive. It is the establishment’s worst nightmare.
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
Plato#19 – for one possible answer to how they might win, read The Economist article currently available via this web-site !
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
to the ‘awakened’ middle class thais:
i see alot of energy in the red shirt movements, but no focus. just empty slogans, targeted at various scapegoats (IMHO the whole of thai society should share some measure of blame for the country’s problems) with no thought actually given to how to fix the system.
you can also ‘awaken’ me of course by pointing to red shirt manifesto tha actually has some intelligible demands rather than vague calls to stop injustice, or dissolve parliament (why???) etc.
as you are now ‘awakened’ tell everyone:
whats the solution to thailand’s problems?
* crickets chirping *
pardon me for being sardonic, but don’t you think your peers would be more sympathetic to the red shirt movement if they actually offered a pratically achievable alternative to the current system, pie in the sky is fine, but don’t expect everyone to buy into it.
at the moment all it seems to be is a huge amount effort just to get a variation of the same theme; with thaksin as the head of the new ammataya, and the ubiquitous double standards now in his favour again.
this is not democracy, this is just mob rule.
don’t forget 65% did not vote for him.
in this case red shirts are just a more incompetent version of the yellow shirts, and you are no more awakened than anybody else.
Thai style democracy?
Frank Lee – I assumed that you’ve read and study Eric Arthur Blair’s works very well so you bring up his name. Anyhow, I hope you really
“learned from other eye-witnesses whom I believe to be reliable”
if you did so but still stand for what you believe then I have no qualm with that.
“because of his (Thaksin) machinations to monopolize the political power of the legislature, executive and judiciary”
You see Frank, we are living in the country that is using parliamentary system, constitution monarchy to be precise. In this system, there’s no clear cut between legislative and executive branch. You are accusing Thaksin of machinations to monopolize the political power, but you know what? eat it up, this is how ordinary parliamentary system works.
Lastly, how can you blamed Thaksin for the injustice you received from the court? isn’t he in the same situation you were??
Actually I agree with you on the election, I dont think there’s gona be any, unless, some sort of military coup took place.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
Moe Aung
You are absolutely right. Nobody can hide behind any possible excuse for dealing with poison like heroin.
I also agree with you that Hla Oo has provided a very soft approach in justifying use of this trade by military junta. Without going into slandering, I would suspect that he may have some personal legacy reasons like support from military a general (as mentioned in Chapter-1). But we have to wait and see his stand.
Since 1962 Burma has been ruled by inefficient superstitious and paranoid generals who used numerology and astrology to drive their policies. I trust everyone know about this fact, so I would not delve into details. You have to also understand that most of these generals do not know anything except for war as they were brought up fighting wars and think that military as well as heavy handed approaches are only solutions for everything. Greed adds fuel to this. Most of the income generated in or by Burma lines up these military generals’ pockets. The face that Than Shwe’s bunkers have been found lined up with billion dollars and his daughter’s wedding are few examples of this. His grandson made a right (although cocky) statement in Singapore that “We control all resources of Burma and no one can touch us”. And all this is happening while Burma is considered to be one of the poorest countries in world. Than Shwe from ruling party and Tay Za from business side control all resources in Burma. And of course, trading of heroin is one of the aspects of whole story. Many companies and countries will and do take advantage of whole situation. Than Shwe did not even let international aide to land in Burma after cyclone in Irrawaddy. Go figure.
We have to understand the root cause of civil war. Please excuse my limited knowledge, however I believe that this was is due to policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing policies of military junta and democratic system worked effectively from 1948 to 1961. We should not forget that Ang San Suu Kyi is still the only elected leader so far.
Please join me to that Burmese people get enough strength to them and some sense to poor soldiers to throw away this military junta and bring peace and prosperity to this beautiful and resourceful country.
God bless all.
AP
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
Why no Thaksin photo? I’ll speculate … It could of course spoil the man’s “mystery” (his face is only to be seen when he reveals himself at special moments such as phone-ins, etc …), and also reinforce the Red Shirts’ identity as being a “people’s movement” of the “silent majority”. Although it is like comparing apples & oranges, it cold be seen as similar to the tea-parties/tea-partiers in the US (you dont see them running around with signs of Glen Beck – they’re a “people’s movement” – they’re doing it for “the people”, right? – likely whoever they view “the people” to be).
Likewise the entire wacky Hindu brahmin pouring-blood-at-the-gate facade could be a similar display of mystery (or mysticism), which appeals to the mystical/spiritual “Thai-ness” of some Thais – or the “real Thais” – who understand this (although from what Reuters reported, no one seems to be making sense out of it) … just my speculation though.
The lèse majesté plot thickens
Readers might wish to discover the latest re. Khan and Wattanasak on my website http://www.thekoratpost.com. An update is available there.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
“economic sanctions and international isolation has forced Burmese generals into a tight corner where the heroin trade is the only way to arm the large army and fight the long civil war.
Pepsi and Unocal and other large foreign businesses were forced to withdraw from Burma and the textile export industry was snuffed out in its infancy so Burmese were forced to flood USA and others with her only viable commodity left, the heroin.”
This rationalisation is in reality more relevant to the insurgent armies than to the Tatmadaw which can’t possibly hide behind that excuse. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny chronologically (not the first time Hla Oo has shown this tendency to be fast and loose with facts), since the sanctions did not happen until several years after the collapse of the CPB in 1989 and Khin Nyunt’s subsequent ceasefire deals with its mutinous ethnic contingents.
Everyone became involved in the heroin trade for funds more readily generated than by other means, including the CIA during the Vietnam War. Funds to procure arms and munitions in the case of ethnic armies, even their Communist leaders who were initially very anti-drugs relented when Chinese aid dried up. Funds to feather their nests in the case of junta officers who did a roaring trade in partnership with the KMT remnants.
Hla Oo’s disingenuous linking of the sanctions and the narcostate activities smacks of spinning a junta apologist line.
Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
@Bh Varapanyo – It’s not the case that sociologists study “the West” and anthropologists study “the Rest!” There are quite a few anthropologists of Europe (including some big names: Nancy Scheper-Hughes, a rather famous anthropologist from UC Berkeley, wrote her first book on Ireland; Michael Herzfeld writes on modern Greece and Italy in addition to Thailand, etc.) and there’s even an entire society for the anthropology of Europe – there are plenty of sociologists who work on Southeast Asia. Where we differ from sociologists is in our theoretical and methodological focus.
Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
Ralph K #15: “We can also remember the rites performed by the current royals each year to make amends for their ancestor’s murder of King Taksin.” Where? When? What? More info please.
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
nutty lin; ASTV is propaganda media. They isn’t news , they’re always put biased comments in what they’re so called “news”
The Economist stomps on some media taboos
Given how many Generals there are in the Thai military, I’d have thought Fu Fu’s chances of promotiion were extremely promising.
A red show of strength, but then what?
Khun Sub, your superior mind is acknowledged, but I simply cannot understand what you are getting out of this. Personal satisfaction? Forgotten a virtue as basic as “Party loyalty”??
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
chris beale:
“The days of the American-backed fascist construct “Thailand” are collapsing.”
Chris Beale must be dreaming. Could somebody please wake him up?
As a neutral observer, how come I still don’t see how the red shirts are gonna win this war even after the massive turn-out of protesters in the past few days.
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
Michelle – it’s not often I agree with Ralph : but yes – congratulations on “nice work” indeed.
However, I do suspect KHMER Buriram may be “a special case” as you say.
It would be very interesting to see fieldwork like yours from the LAO areas of Isaarn. Quite a different picture, I suspect – though I only have anecdotal evidence to go on.