Werner, if you think Thaksin and Chalerm are somehow pioneers of thuggery and tyranny at the top of Thai politics, then you probably need to read up a little on Thailand 20th century history. And stop reading the Nation.
The reds are choosing the least-worst of their options, to paraphrase Churchill. Thailand and its patronage pyramid have always featured corruption, injustice, and murder if necessary to protect the money machine, but Thaksin simply included the poor as part of the Faustian bargain.
They know very well that Thaksin is a crook, but they prefer their own crook to the crooks that have run the country for 60 years. Neither side has any real idealism, just differing policies on how to cut the pie.
If the reds deserve no sympathy, then neither do the gentry as they burn inside their mansions. Both sides have chosen selfish gain as policy. The reds are just the new arrivals, while the establishment chose tyranny so long ago that the mainstream media have forgotten to point it out.
Question is: Will Thailand allow itself to be ruled by people like Thaksin and Chalerm Yoobamrung (not to mention his sons)? One a self-serving tyrant, the other a murderous street thug?
Will Thailand allow these people to turn it into a gangster state, a second Cambodia?
I think not. As long as these misguided, brainwashed red shirts put their money on Thaksin and his cronies, they don’t deserve any sympathy whatsoever.
Note that the media got one thing wrong for sure — they hyped up Friday as Doomsday until everyone believed it and half the businesses shut on Thursday. Yet the Red leaders had made it clear that the entire weekend was needed just to move most protesters into town. As a result of this premature fear-mongering, Friday was the best, lightest non-Songkran traffic day since the 2002 World Cup Final. The streets were totally empty.
I know, err on the side of caution,yeah yeah, but really — the economy could have squeezed in one more productive day before the storm. Monday, on the other hand, looks to be a bad day for commuting.
Even though it’s not quite like 1992, perhaps the king could use his sway one more time and try to strong-arm a compromise. Could be his finest hour, one last time…
“UDD rural hordes head for the capital”
I like that…
…it convey the image of the eye of Sauron and ugly, stinking orcs hordes coming to lay siege to Minas Tirith.
Black and White. Good and Evil. Just the way the world works.
Grant absolute license to kill all these sub-humans, foreigners, republican, communists, etc… same old shit, 6 Oct all over again.
my previous theory that the King was sheltering at Siraraj Hospital from the other royals, probably the prince and queen, is now “confirmed” by rumours that there were poison attempts and his visit to the palace the other night was curtailed because of threats….
so, who knows (or cares?) or is following which royals right now?
Clearly, few Bangkok based newspapers and other media are doing a poor job of unbiasly reporting ahead and during the redshirt protests.
I am currently sitting at a caf├л at soi raang naam, victory monument. I had to beg the people working here to turn the wifi on. Why? Because they said they didn┬┤t want any more customers as “the red shirts might be coming” . Red shirt is synonymous to thug, gangster, anti-roylaistst, even un-thai to most Bangkokians I speak to. It is like it is already pre-decided by or via the media, that the redshirts are here to cause violence, and are damaging the country. The most frightening viewpoints to me thus does not recide in the red camp
One of The Five’s arguments was about the impartiality of Kaewsa/Banjerd/Klanarong.
The Five noted that the Court found that the three members of the investigatory committee were just exercising their rights by attacking Thaksin on the PAD stage. The Court also claimed that the three were able to clearly separate their “investigatory sub-committee” roles from their “PAD mouthpiece” roles.
The Five countered, noting that in addition to providing for justice, the legal process must provide ASSURANCE to both litigants and the public that a just process will occur. As Lord Hewart, a famous English judged noted, “justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done.”
I’m still in the process of translating the legal opinion of The Five. Will send a copy to the New Mandala management when it’s done.
Article three of the Thai constitution says that the people are the sovereign of the country… If Abhisit were democratically elected by that sovereign, would this sovereign not be as upset about this picture as US citizen John Brown (#24)? Or would they think that this is all right, because the king is above the constitution anyway?
I personally liked the, ‘Bangkok on a Knife Edge’ headline on, I think, Friday. It seemed like it too, what with all the good folk from Ari to On Nut – where I spent time – going about their daily business as usual, etc. etc. yawn…
The Bangkok Post is surely the poorest excuse for a newspaper I have ever come across. It hasn’t the integrity or the balls to report any real news. The so-called editorials and special reports are hand wringing, sanctimonious pap, the investigative pieces fluff and drivel.
@ Tarrin (#55) – I’ll add my thanks for your detailed deconstruction of Don Sambandaraksa’s Post article….. well done. Unlike the ubiquitous StanG/Trep/Plus, I have no problem to “consider your narrative seriously” – but, then, I also don’t suffer from a compulsion to dismiss anything that doesn’t dovetail into a personal dogma. If StanG cares to provide a proper rebuttal of your points, I’ll read that with interest – but I’m not holding my breath.
@ Patiwat (#59) – any chance you can post a link to your translation?
Why is Abhisit so adamant in not dissolving parliament? Because his military backers know Democrats will lose in the next election and when pro-Thaksin party is in power, the military will lose all its power.
Therefore, the military may launch crackdown on the reds during this confrontation, leading to severe bloodshed but military factions will certainly mutiny as they cannot stand innocent unarmed peasants being gunned down while int’l community will not stand idle. In sum, it is a lose-lose situation for Abhisit and his invisible backers.
It is noticeable why UDD speakers keep stressing in their current speeches on why a brave and dedicated police colonel got kiled recently in the south — this poor guy had no connection when he asked for a transfer and Abhisit simply ignored his request. In contrast, people with connection like Sonthi Lim is still free while Da Torpedo is in jail.
The lead author, Worachet, is arguable the finest legal mind in public law that Thailand currently has. Most importantly, he is not, like most of his colleages, a legal Srithanonchai, but takes the law as law seriously (the rule of law against the rule by law, so to speak).
This really is a most (truly) unsophisticated way of reporting about (supposedly) unsophisticated protestors. There should be another award for this.
This particular BP’s front page has to be seen in context with another front page some days earlier, showing PM Abhisit reporting to a worried King. In short, on the one hand side, there are the king, the PM, the loyal Thais, especially those in Bangkok, and the sophisticated PAD protestors. On the other hand, we have the “red rage” made up of “rural hordes” of emotionally uncontrollable and only half-civilzed semi-bushmen.
When will Bangkok build a wall around the city to keep these hordes out?
If I were a Red, I would treat these front pages as serious insults, and as a sure sign that me and my people were not welcome in the Thailand of the King, Abhisit, and the PAD. In fact, this combination of headlines seriously harms the monarchy, because it contradicts the king’s tireless efforts during the past decades to support Thailand’s rural areas. Now, the BP says that all his effort was in vain, and that the rural population still is at the level of “rural hordes” that are in some incomprehensible “rage.”
And, oh yes, the BP’s editorial in the the rage/hordes edition also asserted that the reds were not acting in the proper democratic spirit. After all, they were in he minority. Thus we have the king/Abhisit/PAD/Bangkok and Democracy all in a defensive fight against irrational idiots that cannot look beyond the confines of their dry rice fields… It is “us” (virtuous) against “them” (wild, stupid, and probably drunk). How is this perspective as a starting point for “reconciliation”? The bridges have been burnt.
It is amazing to see positive comments exemplified by …someone “never showed up drunk.” Did you take a breath-alizer test? How do you know who was sober and who was not?
Also, the idea that being difficult to follow in one’s father’s shoes…wow! Millions of people in the world get by and make it even better. Character surely must factor in, and that is one of the overriding issues, is it not?
#23 Frank Lee – Why do you have to quote Noppadon Pattama’s name in such a disrespectful way? Do you know him personally? If not then I think it’s wrong (and low). Or, are you rabid?
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Open thread on red protests
Hello. I am new here.
But you/we are all irrelevant foreigners taking sides in this forum about Thailand.
Much ado about nothing . . . we all are.
Open thread on red protests
Werner, if you think Thaksin and Chalerm are somehow pioneers of thuggery and tyranny at the top of Thai politics, then you probably need to read up a little on Thailand 20th century history. And stop reading the Nation.
The reds are choosing the least-worst of their options, to paraphrase Churchill. Thailand and its patronage pyramid have always featured corruption, injustice, and murder if necessary to protect the money machine, but Thaksin simply included the poor as part of the Faustian bargain.
They know very well that Thaksin is a crook, but they prefer their own crook to the crooks that have run the country for 60 years. Neither side has any real idealism, just differing policies on how to cut the pie.
If the reds deserve no sympathy, then neither do the gentry as they burn inside their mansions. Both sides have chosen selfish gain as policy. The reds are just the new arrivals, while the establishment chose tyranny so long ago that the mainstream media have forgotten to point it out.
Thai style democracy?
Srithanonchai
Aren’t they just thinking the way they have been told to think? that Bumiphol never does wrong, he loves them, is a buddha etc
“…this could get serious”
Lord Buddha does have a comment:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/171506/monks-join-anti-government-rally
Open thread on red protests
Question is: Will Thailand allow itself to be ruled by people like Thaksin and Chalerm Yoobamrung (not to mention his sons)? One a self-serving tyrant, the other a murderous street thug?
Will Thailand allow these people to turn it into a gangster state, a second Cambodia?
I think not. As long as these misguided, brainwashed red shirts put their money on Thaksin and his cronies, they don’t deserve any sympathy whatsoever.
Open thread on red protests
Note that the media got one thing wrong for sure — they hyped up Friday as Doomsday until everyone believed it and half the businesses shut on Thursday. Yet the Red leaders had made it clear that the entire weekend was needed just to move most protesters into town. As a result of this premature fear-mongering, Friday was the best, lightest non-Songkran traffic day since the 2002 World Cup Final. The streets were totally empty.
I know, err on the side of caution,yeah yeah, but really — the economy could have squeezed in one more productive day before the storm. Monday, on the other hand, looks to be a bad day for commuting.
Even though it’s not quite like 1992, perhaps the king could use his sway one more time and try to strong-arm a compromise. Could be his finest hour, one last time…
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
“UDD rural hordes head for the capital”
I like that…
…it convey the image of the eye of Sauron and ugly, stinking orcs hordes coming to lay siege to Minas Tirith.
Black and White. Good and Evil. Just the way the world works.
Grant absolute license to kill all these sub-humans, foreigners, republican, communists, etc… same old shit, 6 Oct all over again.
A red show of strength, but then what?
my previous theory that the King was sheltering at Siraraj Hospital from the other royals, probably the prince and queen, is now “confirmed” by rumours that there were poison attempts and his visit to the palace the other night was curtailed because of threats….
so, who knows (or cares?) or is following which royals right now?
where is Prem? is he also holed up at Bankhen?
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
Clearly, few Bangkok based newspapers and other media are doing a poor job of unbiasly reporting ahead and during the redshirt protests.
I am currently sitting at a caf├л at soi raang naam, victory monument. I had to beg the people working here to turn the wifi on. Why? Because they said they didn┬┤t want any more customers as “the red shirts might be coming” . Red shirt is synonymous to thug, gangster, anti-roylaistst, even un-thai to most Bangkokians I speak to. It is like it is already pre-decided by or via the media, that the redshirts are here to cause violence, and are damaging the country. The most frightening viewpoints to me thus does not recide in the red camp
Making sense of the verdict
One of The Five’s arguments was about the impartiality of Kaewsa/Banjerd/Klanarong.
The Five noted that the Court found that the three members of the investigatory committee were just exercising their rights by attacking Thaksin on the PAD stage. The Court also claimed that the three were able to clearly separate their “investigatory sub-committee” roles from their “PAD mouthpiece” roles.
The Five countered, noting that in addition to providing for justice, the legal process must provide ASSURANCE to both litigants and the public that a just process will occur. As Lord Hewart, a famous English judged noted, “justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done.”
I’m still in the process of translating the legal opinion of The Five. Will send a copy to the New Mandala management when it’s done.
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
I have added another BP classic to this post.
Open thread on red protests
Someone represents himself as thai democracy, but he’s not. He uses information warefare to control people who does not assess real information.
Thai style democracy?
Article three of the Thai constitution says that the people are the sovereign of the country… If Abhisit were democratically elected by that sovereign, would this sovereign not be as upset about this picture as US citizen John Brown (#24)? Or would they think that this is all right, because the king is above the constitution anyway?
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
I personally liked the, ‘Bangkok on a Knife Edge’ headline on, I think, Friday. It seemed like it too, what with all the good folk from Ari to On Nut – where I spent time – going about their daily business as usual, etc. etc. yawn…
The Bangkok Post is surely the poorest excuse for a newspaper I have ever come across. It hasn’t the integrity or the balls to report any real news. The so-called editorials and special reports are hand wringing, sanctimonious pap, the investigative pieces fluff and drivel.
Mmm…I’m off to lie down for a while.
Making sense of the verdict
@ Ralph Kramden (#51) “Interesting background about him [Sitthichai Pokai-udom] at Wikipedia.“. Indeed there is – particularly the NYT interview/article at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/world/asia/11iht-thai.1.6091036.html?_r=1
@ Tarrin (#55) – I’ll add my thanks for your detailed deconstruction of Don Sambandaraksa’s Post article….. well done. Unlike the ubiquitous StanG/Trep/Plus, I have no problem to “consider your narrative seriously” – but, then, I also don’t suffer from a compulsion to dismiss anything that doesn’t dovetail into a personal dogma. If StanG cares to provide a proper rebuttal of your points, I’ll read that with interest – but I’m not holding my breath.
@ Patiwat (#59) – any chance you can post a link to your translation?
Open thread on red protests
Why is Abhisit so adamant in not dissolving parliament? Because his military backers know Democrats will lose in the next election and when pro-Thaksin party is in power, the military will lose all its power.
Therefore, the military may launch crackdown on the reds during this confrontation, leading to severe bloodshed but military factions will certainly mutiny as they cannot stand innocent unarmed peasants being gunned down while int’l community will not stand idle. In sum, it is a lose-lose situation for Abhisit and his invisible backers.
It is noticeable why UDD speakers keep stressing in their current speeches on why a brave and dedicated police colonel got kiled recently in the south — this poor guy had no connection when he asked for a transfer and Abhisit simply ignored his request. In contrast, people with connection like Sonthi Lim is still free while Da Torpedo is in jail.
Making sense of the verdict
The prachatai link to the abbreviated statement of the “gang of five” is at http://www.prachatai.com/journal/2010/03/28085
The lead author, Worachet, is arguable the finest legal mind in public law that Thailand currently has. Most importantly, he is not, like most of his colleages, a legal Srithanonchai, but takes the law as law seriously (the rule of law against the rule by law, so to speak).
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
This really is a most (truly) unsophisticated way of reporting about (supposedly) unsophisticated protestors. There should be another award for this.
This particular BP’s front page has to be seen in context with another front page some days earlier, showing PM Abhisit reporting to a worried King. In short, on the one hand side, there are the king, the PM, the loyal Thais, especially those in Bangkok, and the sophisticated PAD protestors. On the other hand, we have the “red rage” made up of “rural hordes” of emotionally uncontrollable and only half-civilzed semi-bushmen.
When will Bangkok build a wall around the city to keep these hordes out?
If I were a Red, I would treat these front pages as serious insults, and as a sure sign that me and my people were not welcome in the Thailand of the King, Abhisit, and the PAD. In fact, this combination of headlines seriously harms the monarchy, because it contradicts the king’s tireless efforts during the past decades to support Thailand’s rural areas. Now, the BP says that all his effort was in vain, and that the rural population still is at the level of “rural hordes” that are in some incomprehensible “rage.”
And, oh yes, the BP’s editorial in the the rage/hordes edition also asserted that the reds were not acting in the proper democratic spirit. After all, they were in he minority. Thus we have the king/Abhisit/PAD/Bangkok and Democracy all in a defensive fight against irrational idiots that cannot look beyond the confines of their dry rice fields… It is “us” (virtuous) against “them” (wild, stupid, and probably drunk). How is this perspective as a starting point for “reconciliation”? The bridges have been burnt.
Sulaiman on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
It is amazing to see positive comments exemplified by …someone “never showed up drunk.” Did you take a breath-alizer test? How do you know who was sober and who was not?
Also, the idea that being difficult to follow in one’s father’s shoes…wow! Millions of people in the world get by and make it even better. Character surely must factor in, and that is one of the overriding issues, is it not?
Thai style democracy?
#23 Frank Lee – Why do you have to quote Noppadon Pattama’s name in such a disrespectful way? Do you know him personally? If not then I think it’s wrong (and low). Or, are you rabid?