Many so-called government leaders have been guilty of corruption over many decades.
Corruption – haven’t we done this to death yet? – at all levels of the civil service, police etc. etc. is at the centre of this country’s problems. Sure, we rightly decry the likes of Thaksin, Sarit, Banharn, Chalerm and so on, but with these central or local networks unlikely to change anytime soon, what real chance is there that Thailand will ever be free of this poison?
I don’t see on NM any comment or analysis of the positive changes Abhisit has attempted to put in place around the country, or his attempts to clean up central and local government.
Backed and installed by the military and other backers or not, it seems to me that the current Democratic Party is a far better option than previously on offer!
Went to have a look myself tonight. Walked from Khao San as far as the main stage. Impossible to judge numbers (and I didn’t see the other side of the stage), but must be 200k+. As reported elsewhere a friendly atmosphere but it felt like the tension was being ratcheted up by the guy speaking before Thaksin (Jatuporn i think). A few sketchy looking characters, but mostly smiling faces.
Reds encouraged me to take photos and those that spoke English were keen to talk. The usual themes (double standards; democracy; Prem; amartya; 1997 constitution etc). Heard a few strongly criticising the Queen (saying she was supporter of PAD & airport takeover) in a way I’ve never witnessed in Thailand. Said they were going to 11th Army tomorrow to force election. They seem determined.
Was very suprised by the high number of non-farmers. Many many middle class looking Thais with variety of regional features and some Chinese features. This doesn’t look like ‘rural hordes’ at all. There are educated people too.
Minimal police; some joking with reds. Saw PAD guards preventing vendors selling alcohol, but otherwise nothing.
Least suprising news: Thaksin got a very good reception. The heart-clappers’ went crazy.
Anyone seen a translation of Thaksin’s phone-in they could link me to?
Somtam Plara, I think the real fear on their part is the purges that they expect if he returns.
Plus if the 1997 constitution is brought back and the 2007 one invalidated, then all the generals that decided that their few assorted voices plus some guns and tanks were more important than those of 15 million Electors who voted in a democratic election, will possibly charged with Treason and insurrection. stripped of rank and etc.
Add to that the backlash in the political sector, which projects are favored, which defeated, etc. And you begin to see that the “Network” is fighting for it’s very survival.
Once it is broke, it won’t be easily put back together again a la Humpty Dumpty.
I have not been able to reach this site via traditional internet and have to use a proxy. Then it comes up without problem. Anyone else in Thailand having “censorship problems”.
My sources indicate that the King is still in Siraraj Hospital and the security cordon is tight. Security is also tight around the palace. These measures raises serious question about the nature of the threat to Thailand’s elite/ruling class arising from the current demonstrations as well as possible power struggle within the family.
I wish you welcome, JoeComeLately. But I take issue that all the foreigners expressing opinions here are “irrelevant”. My partner and I have worked in Thailand for nearly a decade, and during that time we have paid the equivalent of tens of thousands of GBP in taxes to the Kingdom of Thailand, and our businesses employ scores of Thais who enjoy decent health benefits and a humane work environment. Foreigners who live and/or work here and contribute to the economy, and foreigners who visit here and thereby contribute to the economy, should feel comfortable expressing their opinions on the circumstances of the people they work/interact with — as long as we do so respectfully, with jai yen, of course.
I think tomorrow rally to Infantry Division 11 (Rab.11) at Bangkhen District could spark some clash between the protesters and some Bangkokians who are loyal to the Democrat Party.
Then you will see the local news media accuse the Red for disrupting the public.
Also, I guess the government is preparing helicopters to evacuate those V.I.Ps already.
They have some plans to frame the protesters. Let’s see if it’s not true.
“At least in their case the direction of money flow makes sense.”
Your logic must be pleasing to the ears of our fugitive ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra. But are you sure Ragel de Beer the direction of money flow was NOT just a trickle the poor, while Thaksin and his gang, cornered the gold? Trickle-down economy, Thaksin-style, so to speak.
Well, Werner, if you’ve been here for ten years or more and still are ready to dismiss the reds as “brainwashed” then I still have to take issue with your understanding of the situation. The reds know what they’re doing, just as the yellows did. One need not agree with their position or moral compromise to see, from a simple academic point of view, that the movement is an awakening based on legitimate grievances. You’re free to decline sympathy with any movement that chooses Thaksin as its leader, but to dismiss their motives entirely is not just ignorant, but crass and classist.
Oh, and I think you botched that last idiom — “a cold day in hell” refers to an unlikely event, not an undesirable one. A cold day in hell would be welcome, ja?
So far I am impressed that the Red Shirts could, so far, manage a huge (around 200,000 protesters less the 4 most prominent members: Shinawatras who had conveniently bolted out of Thailand) peaceful protest and actually behave. I am even more impressed that they’ve picked a weekend to start their trek to Bangkok, thus minimizing traffic havoc.
But come Monday what?
If the Reds could rally the Bangkok people to sympathize with their grievances (so far aside from perceived injustice to Thaksin and demand for new elections, they’ve not clearly articulated why they are so riled up), they could succeed to toppled the Abhisit government.
Personally I would welcome a new election. But are the Reds leaders truly prepared for a new elections . . . .? I doubt new elections could accomplish much or change the political landscape any better.
But new elections will at least hopefully ease whatever pent-up anger the voters may harbor against the politicians who are supposed to represent them.
Surawat: 2000 baht would just about cover petrol costs for a round trip to Bangkok from Nakorn Phanom. And likely many drivers will fill up at PTT gas stations — so perhaps it’s Thaksin’s subtle way of giving back to the state the funds his policies supposedly deprived TOT and CAT from receiving! Win/win for everybody!
WLH, you say : ” if you think Thaksin and Chalerm are somehow pioneers of thuggery and tyranny at the top of Thai politics, then you probably need to read up a little on Thailand 20th century history. And stop reading the Nation. ”
What a presumptuos and arrogant comment.
You then go on to say :
“The reds are choosing the least-worst of their options, to paraphrase Churchill. ”
Which I would say is equally “presumptuos”, but more, without factual information to back it up, has no substance.
I will agree things need to change.
I will also agree the “patronage system” (as it is called, by so many Enlglish language bloggers – but is more than that) would ideally best be done away with in the country.
But to accept that these crooks, charletans, local war lords and “elites” of another colour could get Thailand “over the line” and into a new era, is just fantasy of the sort, more suitable to a Hollywood movie, than real life.
Okay you say, “is there an alternative” ?
At this stage I cannot see one.
But I don’t think goimg from bad to bad, or bad to worse, is a solution.
To repeat something like a mantra or like current Thai media doesn’t make it right. We find dire warnings that all will go down the drain if the beloved leaders will leave or be pushed out in Thailand, Malaysia and Burma, and during Soeharto in Indonesia, during Marcos in the Philippines, in Cambodia during Pol Pot, the US with Bush, etc. Would Indonesia be better off today with Soeharto, the Philippines with Marcos and Cambodia with Pol Pot? I certainly doubt that in Thailand a new elected government can be as bad as the governments since 2006 or before 1997. I agree fully that Thaksin is neither a democrat nor a good guy etc. Chalerm is even worse (far more stupid). But what about the current leaders? They are no democrats either! Finally, wasn’t it the yellows who took passengers at the airport hostage? As far as I know, nobody has been charged for it and for the losses resulting from it. Can the red shirts, lagging support from high up, become as bad as the yellows were? In fact, if the recent headlines are slightly modified into f.e. “the yellow hordes” or the “yellow rage” they become realistic.
Federico –
Actually, ‘defaming Privy Council president Gen Prem Tinsulanond’ probably is a pretty good description for the repeated vulgar references to Gen. Prem’s supposed sexual preferences that come from the Red Shirt stage.
Note it says “defaming” AND “accusing him of being behind Thailand’s demise since the September 2006 coup and proclaiming that Abhisit Vejjajiva was merely heading Prem’s proxy administration.”
Presumably you mean the latter part when you talk about “anything vaguely resembling the truth.” But defaming doesn’t refer to the accusing part — you should read a bit more carefully.
FYI here’s a list of debating tactics and ruses commonly used by the the Thaksin/Red Shirt propaganda machine – of which Mr. Noppadon remains a prominent member:
Propaganda: The Thaksin/Red Shirts Dishonest Traits
1. ignore criticism
2. deny everything
3. make wild claims
4. make wild counter claims
5. make irrelevant comparisons
6. make personal attacks
7. make veiled threats
8. change the subject
9. flatter to deceive
10. denigrate opponents
11. spout dogma
12. declare victory and retreat
WHL, having been a Thailand resident in the 20th century I’m very well aware of the nature of Thai politics, and yes I’ve also read Corruption & Democracy in Thailand. But there are actually politicians with integrity in Thailand, believe it or not, some of which I’ve known personally.
Thaksin and his clique are the worst of the worst and I think it will be a cold day in hell if they come back.
Kaewsan in particular had been so full of hatred for Thaksin (ever seen his neo-nazi style pamphlet he and his twin-brother had written and distributed during the PAD rallies?) that stating that he could distinguish investigation and personal feelings is highly disingenous.
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Open thread on red protests
Many so-called government leaders have been guilty of corruption over many decades.
Corruption – haven’t we done this to death yet? – at all levels of the civil service, police etc. etc. is at the centre of this country’s problems. Sure, we rightly decry the likes of Thaksin, Sarit, Banharn, Chalerm and so on, but with these central or local networks unlikely to change anytime soon, what real chance is there that Thailand will ever be free of this poison?
I don’t see on NM any comment or analysis of the positive changes Abhisit has attempted to put in place around the country, or his attempts to clean up central and local government.
Backed and installed by the military and other backers or not, it seems to me that the current Democratic Party is a far better option than previously on offer!
Open thread on red protests
BKK Wesley – were those REALLY “PAD guards” preventing sales of alcohol ?
Open thread on red protests
Went to have a look myself tonight. Walked from Khao San as far as the main stage. Impossible to judge numbers (and I didn’t see the other side of the stage), but must be 200k+. As reported elsewhere a friendly atmosphere but it felt like the tension was being ratcheted up by the guy speaking before Thaksin (Jatuporn i think). A few sketchy looking characters, but mostly smiling faces.
Reds encouraged me to take photos and those that spoke English were keen to talk. The usual themes (double standards; democracy; Prem; amartya; 1997 constitution etc). Heard a few strongly criticising the Queen (saying she was supporter of PAD & airport takeover) in a way I’ve never witnessed in Thailand. Said they were going to 11th Army tomorrow to force election. They seem determined.
Was very suprised by the high number of non-farmers. Many many middle class looking Thais with variety of regional features and some Chinese features. This doesn’t look like ‘rural hordes’ at all. There are educated people too.
Minimal police; some joking with reds. Saw PAD guards preventing vendors selling alcohol, but otherwise nothing.
Least suprising news: Thaksin got a very good reception. The heart-clappers’ went crazy.
Anyone seen a translation of Thaksin’s phone-in they could link me to?
Open thread on red protests
Somtam Plara, I think the real fear on their part is the purges that they expect if he returns.
Plus if the 1997 constitution is brought back and the 2007 one invalidated, then all the generals that decided that their few assorted voices plus some guns and tanks were more important than those of 15 million Electors who voted in a democratic election, will possibly charged with Treason and insurrection. stripped of rank and etc.
Add to that the backlash in the political sector, which projects are favored, which defeated, etc. And you begin to see that the “Network” is fighting for it’s very survival.
Once it is broke, it won’t be easily put back together again a la Humpty Dumpty.
Open thread on red protests
I have not been able to reach this site via traditional internet and have to use a proxy. Then it comes up without problem. Anyone else in Thailand having “censorship problems”.
Also happens when I try to access Bangkok Pundit.
A red show of strength, but then what?
My sources indicate that the King is still in Siraraj Hospital and the security cordon is tight. Security is also tight around the palace. These measures raises serious question about the nature of the threat to Thailand’s elite/ruling class arising from the current demonstrations as well as possible power struggle within the family.
Open thread on red protests
I wish you welcome, JoeComeLately. But I take issue that all the foreigners expressing opinions here are “irrelevant”. My partner and I have worked in Thailand for nearly a decade, and during that time we have paid the equivalent of tens of thousands of GBP in taxes to the Kingdom of Thailand, and our businesses employ scores of Thais who enjoy decent health benefits and a humane work environment. Foreigners who live and/or work here and contribute to the economy, and foreigners who visit here and thereby contribute to the economy, should feel comfortable expressing their opinions on the circumstances of the people they work/interact with — as long as we do so respectfully, with jai yen, of course.
Sunday in Bangkok, reds in the city
[…] http://www.newmandala.org/2010/03/14/sunday-in-bangkok-reds-in-the-city/ […]
Sunday in Bangkok, reds in the city
Thank you for reporting.
I think tomorrow rally to Infantry Division 11 (Rab.11) at Bangkhen District could spark some clash between the protesters and some Bangkokians who are loyal to the Democrat Party.
Then you will see the local news media accuse the Red for disrupting the public.
Also, I guess the government is preparing helicopters to evacuate those V.I.Ps already.
They have some plans to frame the protesters. Let’s see if it’s not true.
Thai style democracy?
“At least in their case the direction of money flow makes sense.”
Your logic must be pleasing to the ears of our fugitive ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra. But are you sure Ragel de Beer the direction of money flow was NOT just a trickle the poor, while Thaksin and his gang, cornered the gold? Trickle-down economy, Thaksin-style, so to speak.
Open thread on red protests
Well, Werner, if you’ve been here for ten years or more and still are ready to dismiss the reds as “brainwashed” then I still have to take issue with your understanding of the situation. The reds know what they’re doing, just as the yellows did. One need not agree with their position or moral compromise to see, from a simple academic point of view, that the movement is an awakening based on legitimate grievances. You’re free to decline sympathy with any movement that chooses Thaksin as its leader, but to dismiss their motives entirely is not just ignorant, but crass and classist.
Oh, and I think you botched that last idiom — “a cold day in hell” refers to an unlikely event, not an undesirable one. A cold day in hell would be welcome, ja?
A red show of strength, but then what?
So far I am impressed that the Red Shirts could, so far, manage a huge (around 200,000 protesters less the 4 most prominent members: Shinawatras who had conveniently bolted out of Thailand) peaceful protest and actually behave. I am even more impressed that they’ve picked a weekend to start their trek to Bangkok, thus minimizing traffic havoc.
But come Monday what?
If the Reds could rally the Bangkok people to sympathize with their grievances (so far aside from perceived injustice to Thaksin and demand for new elections, they’ve not clearly articulated why they are so riled up), they could succeed to toppled the Abhisit government.
Personally I would welcome a new election. But are the Reds leaders truly prepared for a new elections . . . .? I doubt new elections could accomplish much or change the political landscape any better.
But new elections will at least hopefully ease whatever pent-up anger the voters may harbor against the politicians who are supposed to represent them.
Thai style democracy?
Surawat: 2000 baht would just about cover petrol costs for a round trip to Bangkok from Nakorn Phanom. And likely many drivers will fill up at PTT gas stations — so perhaps it’s Thaksin’s subtle way of giving back to the state the funds his policies supposedly deprived TOT and CAT from receiving! Win/win for everybody!
Open thread on red protests
WLH, you say : ” if you think Thaksin and Chalerm are somehow pioneers of thuggery and tyranny at the top of Thai politics, then you probably need to read up a little on Thailand 20th century history. And stop reading the Nation. ”
What a presumptuos and arrogant comment.
You then go on to say :
“The reds are choosing the least-worst of their options, to paraphrase Churchill. ”
Which I would say is equally “presumptuos”, but more, without factual information to back it up, has no substance.
I will agree things need to change.
I will also agree the “patronage system” (as it is called, by so many Enlglish language bloggers – but is more than that) would ideally best be done away with in the country.
But to accept that these crooks, charletans, local war lords and “elites” of another colour could get Thailand “over the line” and into a new era, is just fantasy of the sort, more suitable to a Hollywood movie, than real life.
Okay you say, “is there an alternative” ?
At this stage I cannot see one.
But I don’t think goimg from bad to bad, or bad to worse, is a solution.
Thai style democracy?
To repeat something like a mantra or like current Thai media doesn’t make it right. We find dire warnings that all will go down the drain if the beloved leaders will leave or be pushed out in Thailand, Malaysia and Burma, and during Soeharto in Indonesia, during Marcos in the Philippines, in Cambodia during Pol Pot, the US with Bush, etc. Would Indonesia be better off today with Soeharto, the Philippines with Marcos and Cambodia with Pol Pot? I certainly doubt that in Thailand a new elected government can be as bad as the governments since 2006 or before 1997. I agree fully that Thaksin is neither a democrat nor a good guy etc. Chalerm is even worse (far more stupid). But what about the current leaders? They are no democrats either! Finally, wasn’t it the yellows who took passengers at the airport hostage? As far as I know, nobody has been charged for it and for the losses resulting from it. Can the red shirts, lagging support from high up, become as bad as the yellows were? In fact, if the recent headlines are slightly modified into f.e. “the yellow hordes” or the “yellow rage” they become realistic.
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
Federico –
Actually, ‘defaming Privy Council president Gen Prem Tinsulanond’ probably is a pretty good description for the repeated vulgar references to Gen. Prem’s supposed sexual preferences that come from the Red Shirt stage.
Note it says “defaming” AND “accusing him of being behind Thailand’s demise since the September 2006 coup and proclaiming that Abhisit Vejjajiva was merely heading Prem’s proxy administration.”
Presumably you mean the latter part when you talk about “anything vaguely resembling the truth.” But defaming doesn’t refer to the accusing part — you should read a bit more carefully.
Thai style democracy?
FYI here’s a list of debating tactics and ruses commonly used by the the Thaksin/Red Shirt propaganda machine – of which Mr. Noppadon remains a prominent member:
Propaganda: The Thaksin/Red Shirts Dishonest Traits
1. ignore criticism
2. deny everything
3. make wild claims
4. make wild counter claims
5. make irrelevant comparisons
6. make personal attacks
7. make veiled threats
8. change the subject
9. flatter to deceive
10. denigrate opponents
11. spout dogma
12. declare victory and retreat
– – – W E L C O M E T O T H E M A C H I N E – – –
Open thread on red protests
WHL, having been a Thailand resident in the 20th century I’m very well aware of the nature of Thai politics, and yes I’ve also read Corruption & Democracy in Thailand. But there are actually politicians with integrity in Thailand, believe it or not, some of which I’ve known personally.
Thaksin and his clique are the worst of the worst and I think it will be a cold day in hell if they come back.
Making sense of the verdict
Kaewsan in particular had been so full of hatred for Thaksin (ever seen his neo-nazi style pamphlet he and his twin-brother had written and distributed during the PAD rallies?) that stating that he could distinguish investigation and personal feelings is highly disingenous.
Thai style democracy?
Benny:
Yes, well, just as much as the Americans have been told how great their country is, I guess.