Many thanks for making this great debate available though the video runs too erratically to do it any justice. And yes, the marketing failure was glaring, on the surface at least, if it didn’t even manage to attract the embassy spies to check on those Burmese who might have attended. There’s a clue to why none was seen in the audience, and I bet they’d all be grateful like me to see it online.
You might have of course attracted the dissident activists in London many of whom I expect you could have filled the auditorium with if you were so inclined. One prominent doctor among them is married to a sister in law of Aung Thaung, one of the prominent ministers of the junta. Both sisters are doctors themselves, and they phone each other all the time. This divide can be seen in many families. So in a way it is intelligence divided as Dylan has put it. But we shouldn’t be surprised about this either.
Those who have worked inside, by grace of the authorities, perhaps need to stand back abit and reflect on the bigger picture. Just because you have the hands on experience in some practical field, or for that matter just because you are Burmese, unfortunately does not equate to the real understanding of the issues and their solution. Politics would not exist in this world anywhere otherwise.
A little breathless, if not hysterical, as if all this was new, imho. The army is behaving as it always has, and every elected government struggles between it and democratic rule.
Thus it is not really true to say Thai democracy means an elected government SHOULD not try to control the military. Thai democracy is in fact about the struggle of elected governments trying to control the military, and the public support for that. It is only the military itself and its palace backers who believe the government should not control the military.
What’s new today is succession to Vajiralongkorn juxtaposed with the rise of egomaniac Thaksin, and one has to address the question: in the situation now, with an potentially extremely destabilising scenario confronting the monarchy like none before, can the army claim a more valid/justifiable reason for its rejection of civilian management? Is this what the army is acting on, or is it the traditional kneejerk defense of its turf and privileges?
Given that much of the violence is attributed to insurgent groups that are politically motivated to see the former region of Patani rise up and acquire independence, it is odd that there is no mention in this article of any kind of political solution to “end the violence.”
Expanding the quality of education and improving job opportunities may reduce the tendency for under-educated and out-of-work young men to be prone to insurgents’ recruitment efforts. But keep in mind that even many university-educated people who are not involved with insurgent groups still support independence.
To be sure, some of these folks that I know realize that independence is nothing but a pipedream. As a result, some of these people support some form of autonomy.
Still, the point is that though these educated folks have good jobs and are not involved with violence, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have strong Patani Malay Muslim nationalist sentiment. In other words, improving the quality of education will not get rid of this sentiment.
In fact, the expansion of the private Islamic school system may have effectively accentuated Malay Muslim cultural identity. Older Thai Buddhists talk about this all the time, claiming that a few decades ago Thais and ethnic Malays studied together at state schools. Now, they say, there is more social distance between the two ethno-religious groups as a result of the option for Muslims to study secular education at private Islamic schools. Let’s also keep in mind that at these private Islamic schools (or many of these schools, or with some teachers at these schools) children are taught the Patani Malay Muslim nationalist narrative.
Of course, the option for the government back in the 1960s — which was when it began to transform traditional Islamic pondok schools into private Islamic schools that used Thai as a medium of instruction — would have been to try and eliminate Islamic education all together. That of course would have had disastrous consequences, resulting in widespread violence. Still, the compromise between Malay Islamic education and Thai state-led secular education was instrumental in the formation of PULO, and even more so in the case of BRN.
Improving education is important, but what also is absolutely necessary is some kind of “accurate” teachings of history. Thais are taught that this region had always been a part of “Siam.” On the other hand, ethnic Malays are taught that this region was independent and a part of Malaysia. Neither group is taught that the Kingdom of Patani long had not only tributary status with Ayuthaya and Bangkok but also with stronger Malay states to the south. Both are taught exaggerations of the “truth.” It thus may be important for young intellectuals (both Thai Buddhist and Malay Muslim) to try and learn more about history from less-biased sources. Hopefully someday both Thais and ethnic Malays are taught versions of history that are not so biased and not meant to produce Patani Malay Muslim nationalism or Thai nationalism.
Moreover, all this talk of giving respect to cultural identity may amount to nothing more than what Pierre Bourdieu referred to as a “politics of condescension.” For instance, a Thai official may make some effort to speak a bit of the local Malay (and this does happen), but at the end of the day the official, legitimate language is Thai. Unless the region is separated and forms an independent country, the local Malay will forever be marginal in relation to Thai. Yes, an effort by Thai Buddhists to speak some Malay will be appreciated by many Malay Muslims, but deep in the hearts of many people there still may be strong resentment that their language is not official.
Speaking of the issue of language, when Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya was down in the south in August 2009 with representatives from the OIC, he said “If it were up to me, I would make Yawi an official language.”
Kasit may have had good intentions, but his absolute cluelessness about the meaning of “Yawi” is deeply disturbing. Calling the local language “Yawi” is in itself not only inaccurate, but it is also offensive to some Malay Muslims. “Jawi” is standard Malay with the Arabic script. Yawi is just the word Thai Buddhists have long used to refer to the local Malay language. Thai officials need to start calling the language Malayu, Malayu tin, or Malayu Patani. Otherwise they will continue to show disrespect towards the identity of ethnic Malays.
Moreover, Kasit clearly had no idea that there is no written form of the local Malay. I mean, how can a language be “official” if it has no written form?
One thing I’ve found very interesting is that over the past 6 years that I have spent time in the far south, more and more Buddhists – as well as Malay Muslims — seem to call the local Malay “pasa Malayu.” When I was first here I only heard folks call it “pasa Yawi” or “pasa Islam.” Occasionally I would even hear people refer to it as the much more offensive “pasa Khaek.” Recently I have even heard Buddhists in Bangkok refer to the people in the far south as “Malayu.” This is progress.
(One quick point: I have been to hospitals and can confirm that Malay is sometimes used with patients.)
But will more culturally sensitive policies end the violence? Three insurgents who had confessed to their involvement with BRN-C told me that the group’s goal is to acquire independence. When I asked them if autonomy, decentralization, or Chavilit’s proposal would appease insurgent leaders, 2 of the 3 said no.
Thai governments have over the years made limited concessions to the Patani Malay Muslim nationalist movements, but there will be no political concessions under this current government. Maybe once the storm clears in Bangkok a new government may consider some kind of political reforms. That may reduce the violence and co-opt some “separatists.” But keep in mind that previous governments co-opted a previous generation of separatists and implemented more culturally sensitive policies. I recall reading comparative work on separatist movements in southern Thailand and in the southern Philippines before this current wave of violence. The literature asserted that Thai government efforts to address long-standing grievances effectively marginalized support for separatist groups. A couple years after reading these articles, violence reached unprecedented levels.
Unless the government grants full-fledged independence, violence will likely someday resurface no matter what kinds of policies it enacts. But independence of course won’t happen.
And much to the frustration of many Malay Muslims, many other Malay Muslims do not want independence or even some form of autonomy. That said, based on my observations and experiences, they definitely would appreciate more culturally sensitive policies, a better educational system, and the creation of more job opportunities.
this is going to sound very harsh and unsympathetic, but i am just being pragmatic:
a) he entered on a Myanmar passport, so the yankees can’t do anything at all.
b) just to keep things in perspective, your U.S. (or any other) passport doesn’t protect you if you are caught breaking the law in Thailand, Indonesia, etc. That being said, the charges in Myanmar are definitely trumped up, but not say all that different from some of the dodgy cases of foreigners being arrested on dubious charges in Malaysia, Laos, etc. If you decide to travel to Myanmar and do subversive political activity, you should be aware of the extremities of Myanmar’s extrajudicial arrests and imprisonments.
@ Ileana, kudos for you for producing this debate. There are a lot of us in Yangon who are really wanting to see this, but the internet connection is too slow and unreliable to stream such a large video… Will have to watch it the next time I’m outside of Burma.
Also, kind of funny how the people who are against the motion are all people who have never spent significant amounts of time in Burma, having only visited for short stays, and one may have never even stepped foot in the country. Whereas all those arguing in favour of the motion are people who have actually spent time in Burma/Myanmar, working towards change from within the country. That fact alone should have helped the IQ audience’s decision…
[…] for comparison of opinion on what Thailand has politically become. Elephants in The Room part 1, part 2, part 3 and Ji Ungpakorn The Cockroaches take […]
[…] links for comparison of opinion on what Thailand has politically become. Elephants in The Room part 1, part 2, part 3 and Ji Ungpakorn The Cockroaches take […]
Arthurson, I also saw what you saw when I went to see avatar and other recent movies. At first, I was at a loss as to what these are all about. However, I begin to understand later this is the same message that Mr. Panitan tried to convey at FCCT, namely “rule of law”. Sitting at the back near the entrance due to packed room, my friends and I tried to count how many times the word “rule of law” was mentioned in the short speech.
Now that the democrats are in power because someone betrayed Thaksin, not because they win an election, these people are talking about the rule of law. However, when they were in opposition and PAD broke the law by seizing the Govt House, the same people including Abhisit himself even visited PAD mobsters. How ironic !
Three cheeers to FCCT for hosting the event. I suggest they invite Sean Boonprasong as the next speaker.
What an inspiring and entertaining pieace of opinion this was! I can not say that I agreed with everything but that is besides the point. I want more of this. Dr Federico is not holding back but letting it all out. It feels very refreshing and I hope others with similar knowledge and abilities will get up from their trenches and show the same spirit.
Thousands of Burmese doctors in London none of whom came to the debate? That sounds as if we had a serious marketing failure at Intelligence Squared!
I can’t help admiring your CRDB friend and the retired General sitting and chatting to eachother – how much more constructive than shooting and shouting at eachother… but you will have gathered that I am in favour of debate…
since my previous comment / reply to anonymous #5 has not been approved (which makes me think it wouldn’t be approved), I’ll try to be more mild on this second attempt.
some almost 200 years ago (187 to be precise) one poet wrote :
I wonder who the judges are !
With age they show hostility to freedom…
They’re quick to criticize and curse
And always sing the same old song,
They never think they can be wrong.
The older these men are the worse….
Those are the men that now have grown old and grey,
The men enjoying high respect and estimation.
“They are indeed our fair judges” – you will say.
And if there is a man among the younger generation
That never strives for vacancy nor seeks an occupation
Who sets his mind on science and shows a thirst for knowledge
Or good himself fills him with inspiration
To creativity in art,
They scream: “Disaster! Fire!” and acknowledge
The man to be a dreamer and dangerous at that…
“Shame on the organizers for allowing the Thai Embassy to film.”
Hans, the Thai Embassy hosted the talk. Its as Srithanonchai put it up there, the seminar was organized as part of Thai government’s P. R. activities. The fact that Duncan McCargo agreed to be one of their P. R. officers is saying enough about this honorable professor.
Hi Sawarin, I’m not in my teens. Both comments 2 and 3 are mine. Thanks for your fascinating blogging and replies. Good luck and may liberty glow in Thailand. I wish Thailand and her courageous people all the best. Thai certainly deserve much better than this. Amartiya tippa tai oak pai!!!
Ileana, what you said as follow is quite an eye-opener.
“We don’t think that the audience was packed with lobbyists from any of the lobby or aid groups, and we didn’t notice many Burmese in the audience.”
There must be thousands and thousands of Burmese living and prospering in London and almost all of them were not there, amazing. I personally know more Burmese doctors living in London than back in Rangoon.
This is the main problem with Burmese living abroad. And it applies to Burmese back home too. Majority of them are not taking sides. They are all happily sitting on the fence.
Even the exile ones actively involved in the anti-govt struggles will stay at home comfortably welcoming a senior Burmese govt official visiting their country.
One of the prominent leaders of world-wide CRDB (Committee for Restoration of Democracy in Burma) here in Australia has a brother who is a senior general and a well-known minister back home. One day I visited his house and I was amazed to see another retired senior general from Burma visiting them.
A wise man once said that in a war among brothers, nobody gets hurt seriously. That might be the reason we haven’t seen any Karen or Kachin or Kareni suicide bomber in Burma, yet.
Only the progressive westerners seem to take seriously about what is really happening in Burma!
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Burma sanctions: limited, Western, symbolic
Ileana,
Many thanks for making this great debate available though the video runs too erratically to do it any justice. And yes, the marketing failure was glaring, on the surface at least, if it didn’t even manage to attract the embassy spies to check on those Burmese who might have attended. There’s a clue to why none was seen in the audience, and I bet they’d all be grateful like me to see it online.
You might have of course attracted the dissident activists in London many of whom I expect you could have filled the auditorium with if you were so inclined. One prominent doctor among them is married to a sister in law of Aung Thaung, one of the prominent ministers of the junta. Both sisters are doctors themselves, and they phone each other all the time. This divide can be seen in many families. So in a way it is intelligence divided as Dylan has put it. But we shouldn’t be surprised about this either.
Those who have worked inside, by grace of the authorities, perhaps need to stand back abit and reflect on the bigger picture. Just because you have the hands on experience in some practical field, or for that matter just because you are Burmese, unfortunately does not equate to the real understanding of the issues and their solution. Politics would not exist in this world anywhere otherwise.
Are you kidding me?
A little breathless, if not hysterical, as if all this was new, imho. The army is behaving as it always has, and every elected government struggles between it and democratic rule.
Thus it is not really true to say Thai democracy means an elected government SHOULD not try to control the military. Thai democracy is in fact about the struggle of elected governments trying to control the military, and the public support for that. It is only the military itself and its palace backers who believe the government should not control the military.
What’s new today is succession to Vajiralongkorn juxtaposed with the rise of egomaniac Thaksin, and one has to address the question: in the situation now, with an potentially extremely destabilising scenario confronting the monarchy like none before, can the army claim a more valid/justifiable reason for its rejection of civilian management? Is this what the army is acting on, or is it the traditional kneejerk defense of its turf and privileges?
Extinguishing the southern fire
Given that much of the violence is attributed to insurgent groups that are politically motivated to see the former region of Patani rise up and acquire independence, it is odd that there is no mention in this article of any kind of political solution to “end the violence.”
Expanding the quality of education and improving job opportunities may reduce the tendency for under-educated and out-of-work young men to be prone to insurgents’ recruitment efforts. But keep in mind that even many university-educated people who are not involved with insurgent groups still support independence.
To be sure, some of these folks that I know realize that independence is nothing but a pipedream. As a result, some of these people support some form of autonomy.
Still, the point is that though these educated folks have good jobs and are not involved with violence, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have strong Patani Malay Muslim nationalist sentiment. In other words, improving the quality of education will not get rid of this sentiment.
In fact, the expansion of the private Islamic school system may have effectively accentuated Malay Muslim cultural identity. Older Thai Buddhists talk about this all the time, claiming that a few decades ago Thais and ethnic Malays studied together at state schools. Now, they say, there is more social distance between the two ethno-religious groups as a result of the option for Muslims to study secular education at private Islamic schools. Let’s also keep in mind that at these private Islamic schools (or many of these schools, or with some teachers at these schools) children are taught the Patani Malay Muslim nationalist narrative.
Of course, the option for the government back in the 1960s — which was when it began to transform traditional Islamic pondok schools into private Islamic schools that used Thai as a medium of instruction — would have been to try and eliminate Islamic education all together. That of course would have had disastrous consequences, resulting in widespread violence. Still, the compromise between Malay Islamic education and Thai state-led secular education was instrumental in the formation of PULO, and even more so in the case of BRN.
Improving education is important, but what also is absolutely necessary is some kind of “accurate” teachings of history. Thais are taught that this region had always been a part of “Siam.” On the other hand, ethnic Malays are taught that this region was independent and a part of Malaysia. Neither group is taught that the Kingdom of Patani long had not only tributary status with Ayuthaya and Bangkok but also with stronger Malay states to the south. Both are taught exaggerations of the “truth.” It thus may be important for young intellectuals (both Thai Buddhist and Malay Muslim) to try and learn more about history from less-biased sources. Hopefully someday both Thais and ethnic Malays are taught versions of history that are not so biased and not meant to produce Patani Malay Muslim nationalism or Thai nationalism.
Moreover, all this talk of giving respect to cultural identity may amount to nothing more than what Pierre Bourdieu referred to as a “politics of condescension.” For instance, a Thai official may make some effort to speak a bit of the local Malay (and this does happen), but at the end of the day the official, legitimate language is Thai. Unless the region is separated and forms an independent country, the local Malay will forever be marginal in relation to Thai. Yes, an effort by Thai Buddhists to speak some Malay will be appreciated by many Malay Muslims, but deep in the hearts of many people there still may be strong resentment that their language is not official.
Speaking of the issue of language, when Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya was down in the south in August 2009 with representatives from the OIC, he said “If it were up to me, I would make Yawi an official language.”
Kasit may have had good intentions, but his absolute cluelessness about the meaning of “Yawi” is deeply disturbing. Calling the local language “Yawi” is in itself not only inaccurate, but it is also offensive to some Malay Muslims. “Jawi” is standard Malay with the Arabic script. Yawi is just the word Thai Buddhists have long used to refer to the local Malay language. Thai officials need to start calling the language Malayu, Malayu tin, or Malayu Patani. Otherwise they will continue to show disrespect towards the identity of ethnic Malays.
Moreover, Kasit clearly had no idea that there is no written form of the local Malay. I mean, how can a language be “official” if it has no written form?
One thing I’ve found very interesting is that over the past 6 years that I have spent time in the far south, more and more Buddhists – as well as Malay Muslims — seem to call the local Malay “pasa Malayu.” When I was first here I only heard folks call it “pasa Yawi” or “pasa Islam.” Occasionally I would even hear people refer to it as the much more offensive “pasa Khaek.” Recently I have even heard Buddhists in Bangkok refer to the people in the far south as “Malayu.” This is progress.
(One quick point: I have been to hospitals and can confirm that Malay is sometimes used with patients.)
But will more culturally sensitive policies end the violence? Three insurgents who had confessed to their involvement with BRN-C told me that the group’s goal is to acquire independence. When I asked them if autonomy, decentralization, or Chavilit’s proposal would appease insurgent leaders, 2 of the 3 said no.
Thai governments have over the years made limited concessions to the Patani Malay Muslim nationalist movements, but there will be no political concessions under this current government. Maybe once the storm clears in Bangkok a new government may consider some kind of political reforms. That may reduce the violence and co-opt some “separatists.” But keep in mind that previous governments co-opted a previous generation of separatists and implemented more culturally sensitive policies. I recall reading comparative work on separatist movements in southern Thailand and in the southern Philippines before this current wave of violence. The literature asserted that Thai government efforts to address long-standing grievances effectively marginalized support for separatist groups. A couple years after reading these articles, violence reached unprecedented levels.
Unless the government grants full-fledged independence, violence will likely someday resurface no matter what kinds of policies it enacts. But independence of course won’t happen.
And much to the frustration of many Malay Muslims, many other Malay Muslims do not want independence or even some form of autonomy. That said, based on my observations and experiences, they definitely would appreciate more culturally sensitive policies, a better educational system, and the creation of more job opportunities.
Nyi Nyi Aung: Locked up in Burma
this is going to sound very harsh and unsympathetic, but i am just being pragmatic:
a) he entered on a Myanmar passport, so the yankees can’t do anything at all.
b) just to keep things in perspective, your U.S. (or any other) passport doesn’t protect you if you are caught breaking the law in Thailand, Indonesia, etc. That being said, the charges in Myanmar are definitely trumped up, but not say all that different from some of the dodgy cases of foreigners being arrested on dubious charges in Malaysia, Laos, etc. If you decide to travel to Myanmar and do subversive political activity, you should be aware of the extremities of Myanmar’s extrajudicial arrests and imprisonments.
Burma sanctions: limited, Western, symbolic
@ Ileana, kudos for you for producing this debate. There are a lot of us in Yangon who are really wanting to see this, but the internet connection is too slow and unreliable to stream such a large video… Will have to watch it the next time I’m outside of Burma.
Also, kind of funny how the people who are against the motion are all people who have never spent significant amounts of time in Burma, having only visited for short stays, and one may have never even stepped foot in the country. Whereas all those arguing in favour of the motion are people who have actually spent time in Burma/Myanmar, working towards change from within the country. That fact alone should have helped the IQ audience’s decision…
Intelligence squared? Or intelligence divided?
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
[…] what Thailand has politically become. Elephants in The Room part 1, part 2, part 3 and Ji Ungpakorn here and possibly […]
Elephants in the room: Part 2
[…] for comparison of opinion on what Thailand has politically become. Elephants in The Room part 1, part 2, part 3 and Ji Ungpakorn The Cockroaches take […]
Elephants in the room – Part 3
[…] of opinion on what Thailand has politically become. Elephants in The Room part 1, part 2, part 3 and Ji Ungpakorn The Cockroaches take […]
Elephants in the room: Part 1
[…] links for comparison of opinion on what Thailand has politically become. Elephants in The Room part 1, part 2, part 3 and Ji Ungpakorn The Cockroaches take […]
Are you kidding me?
Arthurson, I also saw what you saw when I went to see avatar and other recent movies. At first, I was at a loss as to what these are all about. However, I begin to understand later this is the same message that Mr. Panitan tried to convey at FCCT, namely “rule of law”. Sitting at the back near the entrance due to packed room, my friends and I tried to count how many times the word “rule of law” was mentioned in the short speech.
Now that the democrats are in power because someone betrayed Thaksin, not because they win an election, these people are talking about the rule of law. However, when they were in opposition and PAD broke the law by seizing the Govt House, the same people including Abhisit himself even visited PAD mobsters. How ironic !
Three cheeers to FCCT for hosting the event. I suggest they invite Sean Boonprasong as the next speaker.
Are you kidding me?
What an inspiring and entertaining pieace of opinion this was! I can not say that I agreed with everything but that is besides the point. I want more of this. Dr Federico is not holding back but letting it all out. It feels very refreshing and I hope others with similar knowledge and abilities will get up from their trenches and show the same spirit.
Thank You, Federico
Burma sanctions: limited, Western, symbolic
Thousands of Burmese doctors in London none of whom came to the debate? That sounds as if we had a serious marketing failure at Intelligence Squared!
I can’t help admiring your CRDB friend and the retired General sitting and chatting to eachother – how much more constructive than shooting and shouting at eachother… but you will have gathered that I am in favour of debate…
Are you kidding me?
since my previous comment / reply to anonymous #5 has not been approved (which makes me think it wouldn’t be approved), I’ll try to be more mild on this second attempt.
some almost 200 years ago (187 to be precise) one poet wrote :
Ferrara on Thai politics
[…] Ferrara et al, at the FCCT […]
Are you kidding me?
Hobby (7)
that was a very neat exposure ! 😀
by the way – I am glad and in fact LOVE it that Federico has quoted Mussolini and compared his fascist demagoguery with what PAD is still preaching.
I was telling all along :
No Pasaran PADshists ! 🙂
good to see that more people wake up to the reality – that PADshists are alike fascists.
An alternative take on the SOAS event
@Anonymous #11
Agreed. Had Federico Ferrara been invited to be a panellist there, he would have put McCargo to shame.
An alternative take on the SOAS event
“Shame on the organizers for allowing the Thai Embassy to film.”
Hans, the Thai Embassy hosted the talk. Its as Srithanonchai put it up there, the seminar was organized as part of Thai government’s P. R. activities. The fact that Duncan McCargo agreed to be one of their P. R. officers is saying enough about this honorable professor.
Education of the clone
Hi Sawarin, I’m not in my teens. Both comments 2 and 3 are mine. Thanks for your fascinating blogging and replies. Good luck and may liberty glow in Thailand. I wish Thailand and her courageous people all the best. Thai certainly deserve much better than this. Amartiya tippa tai oak pai!!!
Burma sanctions: limited, Western, symbolic
Ileana, what you said as follow is quite an eye-opener.
“We don’t think that the audience was packed with lobbyists from any of the lobby or aid groups, and we didn’t notice many Burmese in the audience.”
There must be thousands and thousands of Burmese living and prospering in London and almost all of them were not there, amazing. I personally know more Burmese doctors living in London than back in Rangoon.
This is the main problem with Burmese living abroad. And it applies to Burmese back home too. Majority of them are not taking sides. They are all happily sitting on the fence.
Even the exile ones actively involved in the anti-govt struggles will stay at home comfortably welcoming a senior Burmese govt official visiting their country.
One of the prominent leaders of world-wide CRDB (Committee for Restoration of Democracy in Burma) here in Australia has a brother who is a senior general and a well-known minister back home. One day I visited his house and I was amazed to see another retired senior general from Burma visiting them.
A wise man once said that in a war among brothers, nobody gets hurt seriously. That might be the reason we haven’t seen any Karen or Kachin or Kareni suicide bomber in Burma, yet.
Only the progressive westerners seem to take seriously about what is really happening in Burma!
Are you kidding me?
@Arthurson
I avoid since quite some time to arrive in time for a movie in Thailand.
Be some 20 minutes too late. That’s the perfect time to sit down and remain seated.