Stephen and Ko Hla Oo, I produced the debate for Intelligence Squared and can tell you that it is now streamed live from the IQ website. The UK Rangoon Embassy will also be posting it on their website.
In a very recent post, PPT briefly mentioned a statement by General Boonlert Kaewprasit, talking up a coup to save Privy Council President General Prem Tinsulanonda from further criticism. The Nation (21 February 2010) reports that Boonlert is a “former chief of the Army’s advisory board…”.
It is reported that in “a radio interview, Boonlert said attacks on Prem could be construed as an attack on the institution of monarchy and soldiers may eventually stage a coup to defend the institution.” He added, “Those who are [Prem’s] enemies may not be aiming only at him but at those higher up…”. The general called on the government to arrest “those attacking the Palace.”
It seems that this theme is useful for the Democrat Party. When frightened and challenged, it seems that the yellow-shirted rhetoric is seen as most valuable and damaging to the red shirts. Taking up the republicanism theme, Thepthai Saenphong, speaking as a spokesman for Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, “insisted the red shirts were mobilising in tandem with the monarchy-abolition movement.”
He also “urged people to come out and tell the red shirts to stop mobilizing,” while making the rather tired accusation that Thaksin Shinawatra was paying each and every red shirt protestors. Thepthai is reported to have made the extraordinary claim – call it a fabrication because there seems no evidence to be presented – that Thaksin is spending 200 million baht a day. He makes this claim as other yellow shirts claim Thaksin is just about broke, a claim they have been making for months.
It seems that the Democrat Party and government are ratcheting up the attacks on the red shirts as Friday approaches. There have been threats, the military and police are deployed and several thousands of police and military have been staging practice clashes with “demonstrators” as a show of force and a threat to any potential protestors.
Red shirts have also done a bit of ratcheting up as well, but their demonstrations remain small, effective and peaceful. The only threats have come from former military men Seh Daeng and Panlop, while the mainstream red shirt leadership continues to say there will be no organized rally on 26 February. Even the People’s Alliance for Democracy seems to think that there won’t be violence after the assets case decision, but does warn against a “third party” inciting trouble.
But just to be sure, the government is preventing people from traveling to Bangkok. The Nation reports that in “Nakhon Ratchasima province, checkpoints along the roads have been set up to prevent the red shirts from joining the protests in Bangkok. Police patrols are also being launched every 30 minutes. Pickups and six-wheeler trucks are expected to be the main transportation mode carrying protesters to Bangkok.” The police usually stop these vehicles anyway to extort payments from them. But this is trying to limit free movement.
As a footnote, this report makes acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn appear again as a liar as he recently was reported as saying this was not happening while admitting that the government’s 37-page plan for stomping on the red shirts is real. Panitan deserves to cop plenty of criticism.
Readers might be interested in viewing a debate on whether it is time to lift sanctions on Burma that I produced for Intelligence Squared in London, 2nd December 2009
[…] NEW MANDALA – Ferrera @ the FCCT: “Are You Kidding Me?” ! STRAITS TIMES – Cat & Mouse in Thailand (“Thailand Unhinged” a talk of the town) LAT – Thailand Has a Flight Plan for Pigeons AFP – Thailand Braces for Explosive Thaksin Verdict THE NATION – Uneasy Calm Between Govt & Military BANGKOK POST – Decommission These Green Bus Wrecks ASIA TIMES – Thaksin Case Raises Specter of Violence ! RELIGION, SEX & POLITICS – Thais Are not Smiling: Panitan, Suranand & Ferrera @ the FCCT BANGKOK POST – GT200a Costly Dowsing Rod (“a con, a fraud, a crime,” but army insists it works) THE NATION – Army Knows Better: Defiant Over GT200 (and those are the people actually in charge they say …) BANGKOK POST – Thaksin Restructures Red Shirts Ahead of Protests FT – Bangkok Braces for Disruption Ahead of Thaksin Ruling […]
Thanks for the attention you’ve paid to my article and there are some things here that will be useful to me in any further reworking of my article. I’m pleased with the constructive nature of this criticism and will try and take it on board. I might add that I’ve got no problem with responding to your comments and criticisms.
But basically I agree with Hobby. Laksana may be, like me, interested in deciphering codes. But our purposes are completely different. She wants to see people put into prison for her perception of what they say. I don’t.
She should however feel quite free, as you do, to identify whatever biases or errors she sees in the statements and journalistic techniques such as juxtaposition of pictures of those she accuses. That’s a whole different question.
What she is doing, though, and what the current legal framework allows and encourages her and others like her to do, is to try to shut people up with the threat of force and punishment.
Of course, the whole question of the relationship between perception and reality is of great philosophical interest and much of my article is about how perception influences behavior. But it is a bit rich to blame the FCCT for what goes on in Laksana’s mind and ask them to change their behavior so as not to upset her. Her perceptions are her own problem, not theirs. You might as well ask me to abandon my belief in democracy because it upsets dictators.
The workings of her mind may be of interest to you; I’m not particularly interested in them except insofar as her mind and minds like hers with their appalling presumption that they’ve got a corner on what is a “correct” perception and what is “twisted” threaten the physical and intellectual liberty of the rest of us.
Perceptions are all very interesting but real bodies are being thrown into real prisons and real people are forced into mental contortions for fear of the same thing happening to them. That’s my primary concern.
JohnH- Her comments have been reported on. “On the ground experience” is the one thing which does not matter in this debate- the question is “does the device work better than random guessing?” The way to answer the question is- and only is- scientific testing. Not the sort of anecdotal evid. being put forth by the Army [“it worked once when we first bought it, and saved so many lives!]. She may not always toe the government line, but Porntip is as knee deep in broken faces on the GT200 as anyone else, minus Anupong.
Sorry, limited internet, so can’t sift through to find where the citations were, but I believe you would want to start with Bangkok Pundit. Columnists in the English language papers have mentioned her, too, but of course their sites’ search functions are impossibly useless…. Better to start with BP, and follow any links.
Khun Panitan is adept at shrugging questions off, using humour to deflect attention away from core questions.
One other question he ignored was when he was asked to justify his statement that if the military were called in they would be subject to “no scrutiny” (immediately corrected to “less scrutiny”) than the forces they were brought in to support.
Wow! Federico Ferrara and Mark Hanusz, thank you!
I would call your book a rapid reaction force in transformation.
Ferrara said he became interested in Thai politics when he heard that the military pledges loyalty to the king but not to the government. This reminded him of 2,500 years ago in Italy when the army refused to fight for the patricians. Recent statements by Privy Councilor Prem recalled for him Mussolini’s doctrine of fascism, but he said the yellow shirt leaders Chamlong and Sonthi were not as sophisticated as the Italian dictator. “The future of the country does not belong to the military,” Ferrara said. “They should get the hell out of politics.”
For a more interesting discussion of the political terrain of engagement between transnational anti-hydropower activists, and Lao hydropower industry developers, see:
: Professor Reynolds, many thanks for your constructive comments. I will email my responses to your ANU account. Please check your mailbox.
: Anonymous (3), yes, there’s an element of allegorical writing on my work; but I’m not in a position to judge whether or not M. L. Pin was a propagandist of the Thai state. The meaning of ‘propagandist’ is subjective, and changeable according to cultural and historical context. For example, in several decades from now, who knows, Thais may look back and view Luang Wichit and Phibun in a different light. They may be comparable with President Sarkozy, a politician desperately wants to get rid of all the niqabs (Islamic veil) in France, not on the grounds of discrimination and xenophobia, but because they come to undermine a democratic principle of the Republic which strongly supports standardisation and universalism. Add another several decades on top, I mean after Thailand had experienced a democratic form of government, Thais may, again, look at M. L. Pin differently.
The basis of ‘Education of the Clone’ is liberty. The freedom to choose: to be whoever you want to be by expanding your horizon and let the wind carries your way is tragically missing in the philosophy of Thai education. Liberal democracy won’t grow if individualism is not valued. I don’t support any political system in which individuals have to trade the self in exchange of the idea of belonging in a human community.
: anon (2), if you can’t recall Pin, you must be in your teens or early 20s. It might be Kazuo Ishiguro’s novel that drew you to my piece. It was reported in papers that Never Let Me Go has a special appeal towards young readers. Thanks for your interest.
StanG and Anon. – can we please get back to the very serious issues under discussion, instead of all this personal mudslinging.
Let none of us forget : we are simply commentators on the periphery of what are basically the internal problems of a sovereign country.
We’re like commentators ring-side at a Muay Thai fight : essentially it is not our business – but we like to comment, second by second – on how we think the fight is going.
And like at a Muay Thai fight, we spectators get heated with each other. But let’s not forget that – essentially : it is THEIR fight, not ours.
Thomas, I put up something I think of as constructive criticism, at the very worst, over at my blog, it’s a bit too big to be posted straight here and I hope moderators will allow a link, I’m not trying to steal their traffic (edit that out if you wish).
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Benedict Rogers on Than Shwe
Stephen and Ko Hla Oo, I produced the debate for Intelligence Squared and can tell you that it is now streamed live from the IQ website. The UK Rangoon Embassy will also be posting it on their website.
http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/burma
Are you kidding me?
from the often excellent Political Prisoners in Thailand blog……retired General Boonlert Kaewprasit says:
Attacks on Prem are attacks on the “Institution” and he called on the government to arrest “those attacking the Palace.”
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/02/21/when-under-pressure-use-the-monarchy/
—————————————
February 21, 2010…12:55 pm
When under pressure, use the monarchy
In a very recent post, PPT briefly mentioned a statement by General Boonlert Kaewprasit, talking up a coup to save Privy Council President General Prem Tinsulanonda from further criticism. The Nation (21 February 2010) reports that Boonlert is a “former chief of the Army’s advisory board…”.
It is reported that in “a radio interview, Boonlert said attacks on Prem could be construed as an attack on the institution of monarchy and soldiers may eventually stage a coup to defend the institution.” He added, “Those who are [Prem’s] enemies may not be aiming only at him but at those higher up…”. The general called on the government to arrest “those attacking the Palace.”
It seems that this theme is useful for the Democrat Party. When frightened and challenged, it seems that the yellow-shirted rhetoric is seen as most valuable and damaging to the red shirts. Taking up the republicanism theme, Thepthai Saenphong, speaking as a spokesman for Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, “insisted the red shirts were mobilising in tandem with the monarchy-abolition movement.”
He also “urged people to come out and tell the red shirts to stop mobilizing,” while making the rather tired accusation that Thaksin Shinawatra was paying each and every red shirt protestors. Thepthai is reported to have made the extraordinary claim – call it a fabrication because there seems no evidence to be presented – that Thaksin is spending 200 million baht a day. He makes this claim as other yellow shirts claim Thaksin is just about broke, a claim they have been making for months.
It seems that the Democrat Party and government are ratcheting up the attacks on the red shirts as Friday approaches. There have been threats, the military and police are deployed and several thousands of police and military have been staging practice clashes with “demonstrators” as a show of force and a threat to any potential protestors.
Red shirts have also done a bit of ratcheting up as well, but their demonstrations remain small, effective and peaceful. The only threats have come from former military men Seh Daeng and Panlop, while the mainstream red shirt leadership continues to say there will be no organized rally on 26 February. Even the People’s Alliance for Democracy seems to think that there won’t be violence after the assets case decision, but does warn against a “third party” inciting trouble.
But just to be sure, the government is preventing people from traveling to Bangkok. The Nation reports that in “Nakhon Ratchasima province, checkpoints along the roads have been set up to prevent the red shirts from joining the protests in Bangkok. Police patrols are also being launched every 30 minutes. Pickups and six-wheeler trucks are expected to be the main transportation mode carrying protesters to Bangkok.” The police usually stop these vehicles anyway to extort payments from them. But this is trying to limit free movement.
As a footnote, this report makes acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn appear again as a liar as he recently was reported as saying this was not happening while admitting that the government’s 37-page plan for stomping on the red shirts is real. Panitan deserves to cop plenty of criticism.
Are you kidding me?
Couldn’t agree more.
Burma sanctions: limited, Western, symbolic
Readers might be interested in viewing a debate on whether it is time to lift sanctions on Burma that I produced for Intelligence Squared in London, 2nd December 2009
http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/burma
Are you kidding me?
[…] NEW MANDALA – Ferrera @ the FCCT: “Are You Kidding Me?” ! STRAITS TIMES – Cat & Mouse in Thailand (“Thailand Unhinged” a talk of the town) LAT – Thailand Has a Flight Plan for Pigeons AFP – Thailand Braces for Explosive Thaksin Verdict THE NATION – Uneasy Calm Between Govt & Military BANGKOK POST – Decommission These Green Bus Wrecks ASIA TIMES – Thaksin Case Raises Specter of Violence ! RELIGION, SEX & POLITICS – Thais Are not Smiling: Panitan, Suranand & Ferrera @ the FCCT BANGKOK POST – GT200a Costly Dowsing Rod (“a con, a fraud, a crime,” but army insists it works) THE NATION – Army Knows Better: Defiant Over GT200 (and those are the people actually in charge they say …) BANGKOK POST – Thaksin Restructures Red Shirts Ahead of Protests FT – Bangkok Braces for Disruption Ahead of Thaksin Ruling […]
Are you kidding me?
as they say in Australia… bloody good mate, hang in there
it will all come out right in the end…
maybe we will have to wait for some oldies to die or be declared senile but democratic elections will happen again and they will stick this time!
Elephants in the room – Part 3
Dear StanG,
Thanks for the attention you’ve paid to my article and there are some things here that will be useful to me in any further reworking of my article. I’m pleased with the constructive nature of this criticism and will try and take it on board. I might add that I’ve got no problem with responding to your comments and criticisms.
But basically I agree with Hobby. Laksana may be, like me, interested in deciphering codes. But our purposes are completely different. She wants to see people put into prison for her perception of what they say. I don’t.
She should however feel quite free, as you do, to identify whatever biases or errors she sees in the statements and journalistic techniques such as juxtaposition of pictures of those she accuses. That’s a whole different question.
What she is doing, though, and what the current legal framework allows and encourages her and others like her to do, is to try to shut people up with the threat of force and punishment.
Of course, the whole question of the relationship between perception and reality is of great philosophical interest and much of my article is about how perception influences behavior. But it is a bit rich to blame the FCCT for what goes on in Laksana’s mind and ask them to change their behavior so as not to upset her. Her perceptions are her own problem, not theirs. You might as well ask me to abandon my belief in democracy because it upsets dictators.
The workings of her mind may be of interest to you; I’m not particularly interested in them except insofar as her mind and minds like hers with their appalling presumption that they’ve got a corner on what is a “correct” perception and what is “twisted” threaten the physical and intellectual liberty of the rest of us.
Perceptions are all very interesting but real bodies are being thrown into real prisons and real people are forced into mental contortions for fear of the same thing happening to them. That’s my primary concern.
I’ve posted this comment at your blog too.
Army defiance
Watch for the moment that the embassies start sending staff home.
That’s when their intel is telling them the shit is hitting the fan.
I think Thailand is a few weeks away from that but things could still go in both directions.
What you see on New Mandala
@Wrigley
I suggested the very same several weeks ago – and suggest that NM just delete this whole thread.
@chrisbeale
Your analogy would work but while most of us are commenting on a Muay Thai fight StanG is commenting on ten pin bowling.
Ferrara et al, at the FCCT
[…] is the text of my remarks at the FCCT on 18 February 2010, reconstructed from my notes and my memory. Because I wasn’t reading from […]
Army defiance
JohnH- Her comments have been reported on. “On the ground experience” is the one thing which does not matter in this debate- the question is “does the device work better than random guessing?” The way to answer the question is- and only is- scientific testing. Not the sort of anecdotal evid. being put forth by the Army [“it worked once when we first bought it, and saved so many lives!]. She may not always toe the government line, but Porntip is as knee deep in broken faces on the GT200 as anyone else, minus Anupong.
Sorry, limited internet, so can’t sift through to find where the citations were, but I believe you would want to start with Bangkok Pundit. Columnists in the English language papers have mentioned her, too, but of course their sites’ search functions are impossibly useless…. Better to start with BP, and follow any links.
Ferrara et al, at the FCCT
Khun Panitan is adept at shrugging questions off, using humour to deflect attention away from core questions.
One other question he ignored was when he was asked to justify his statement that if the military were called in they would be subject to “no scrutiny” (immediately corrected to “less scrutiny”) than the forces they were brought in to support.
Getting published in Thai Studies
Wow! Federico Ferrara and Mark Hanusz, thank you!
I would call your book a rapid reaction force in transformation.
Ferrara said he became interested in Thai politics when he heard that the military pledges loyalty to the king but not to the government. This reminded him of 2,500 years ago in Italy when the army refused to fight for the patricians. Recent statements by Privy Councilor Prem recalled for him Mussolini’s doctrine of fascism, but he said the yellow shirt leaders Chamlong and Sonthi were not as sophisticated as the Italian dictator. “The future of the country does not belong to the military,” Ferrara said. “They should get the hell out of politics.”
I definitely will buy your book!
There’s no use crying over dammed rivers
For a more interesting discussion of the political terrain of engagement between transnational anti-hydropower activists, and Lao hydropower industry developers, see:
Whitington, J. (2008). “Intervention, Management, Technological Error.” parallax. vol. 14, no. 3: 48–61.
Education of the clone
Thanks for your opinions everyone.
: Professor Reynolds, many thanks for your constructive comments. I will email my responses to your ANU account. Please check your mailbox.
: Anonymous (3), yes, there’s an element of allegorical writing on my work; but I’m not in a position to judge whether or not M. L. Pin was a propagandist of the Thai state. The meaning of ‘propagandist’ is subjective, and changeable according to cultural and historical context. For example, in several decades from now, who knows, Thais may look back and view Luang Wichit and Phibun in a different light. They may be comparable with President Sarkozy, a politician desperately wants to get rid of all the niqabs (Islamic veil) in France, not on the grounds of discrimination and xenophobia, but because they come to undermine a democratic principle of the Republic which strongly supports standardisation and universalism. Add another several decades on top, I mean after Thailand had experienced a democratic form of government, Thais may, again, look at M. L. Pin differently.
The basis of ‘Education of the Clone’ is liberty. The freedom to choose: to be whoever you want to be by expanding your horizon and let the wind carries your way is tragically missing in the philosophy of Thai education. Liberal democracy won’t grow if individualism is not valued. I don’t support any political system in which individuals have to trade the self in exchange of the idea of belonging in a human community.
: anon (2), if you can’t recall Pin, you must be in your teens or early 20s. It might be Kazuo Ishiguro’s novel that drew you to my piece. It was reported in papers that Never Let Me Go has a special appeal towards young readers. Thanks for your interest.
What you see on New Mandala
The appropriate response for those StanG haters is to just ignore and not respond to his comments. It might result in less domination.
What you see on New Mandala
StanG and Anon. – can we please get back to the very serious issues under discussion, instead of all this personal mudslinging.
Let none of us forget : we are simply commentators on the periphery of what are basically the internal problems of a sovereign country.
We’re like commentators ring-side at a Muay Thai fight : essentially it is not our business – but we like to comment, second by second – on how we think the fight is going.
And like at a Muay Thai fight, we spectators get heated with each other. But let’s not forget that – essentially : it is THEIR fight, not ours.
Elephants in the room – Part 3
Thomas, I put up something I think of as constructive criticism, at the very worst, over at my blog, it’s a bit too big to be posted straight here and I hope moderators will allow a link, I’m not trying to steal their traffic (edit that out if you wish).
Getting published in Thai Studies
Looks like we found a brilliant Thai translator in less than 12 hours after my first post. Details to follow.
Army defiance
Of course the G200 works!!
The ONLY reason the Thai military exists is to line the pockets of the generals.
Oh, and massacring civilians on the streets.